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Iraq
Marines killed during faked surrender
2003-03-24
Edited for length
AN NASIRIYAH, Iraq — As they waited in a convoy Monday to cross the Euphrates River, the Marines were tense, fingers on the trigger. Two bloody battles a day earlier near An Nasiriyah, 230 miles from Baghdad, had deepened their sense of just how treacherous the drive to the Iraqi capital could be. Some of the Americans had been killed by Iraqis pretending to surrender.
They did this last time, too. The lefties denigrate the concept of honor among military men, but it has its uses. One of those uses is that adhering to the rules of war — one of them involving honoring white flags — you don't set up a situation where subsequent surrenders are rejected...
The convoy of hundreds of vehicles — including tanks, TOW missiles and armored personnel carriers — was backed up along the road leading to a pontoon bridge, and Marines with scarves around their heads lay in the sand on either side of the line of traffic, pointing their M-16s toward the desert. Anyone who approached faced close scrutiny. The point man for one set of vehicles, a young Marine with a quiet Southern drawl, seemed typical of the mood. As he spoke, his gaze was fixed straight ahead, his finger on the trigger of his rifle, ready for whatever might lie across the sand. His eyes looked tired. He had had about an hour of sleep a night over the previous few days as the convoy pressed ahead. "It's going to be a long day, I think," he said. Asked if he had drawn any fire, he said "Not yet. When we reach Baghdad, I think." Like other Marines interviewed Monday, he refused to give his name. Such was the mood.
"Piss off. I'm a Marine. That's what counts."
Another Marine, from the Twentynine Palms Marine Corps base in California, was in the 1991 Gulf War, and noted the change in mood this time. "When you're at war in someone's homeland, it's a different story," he said. "Last time" — in Kuwait — "everyone was happy to see us. We were liberating the country. So we did it, we won, everyone was happy and we went home." But here, there is constant anxiety about disguised Iraqi soldiers waiting to attack, and constant wondering about just who is the enemy. "We saw some black berets hanging up in a tree, and we went to investigate and we saw all these uniforms hanging there. I figure half these guys you see walking around are soldiers. They've discarded their uniforms," the Marine said. "They're out there, they're watching us and they're planning small counter-attacks."
Posted by:Kerry

#20  this could really work in Saddams favor: consider this; all the fake surrenders at some point will force US troops to take less prisoners for their own safety, once word gets down to the iraqui army that we are not taking as many prisoners, they will have but one option- fight to the death- exactly what he wants and we don't. This should happen around the time the big battle for baghdad begins. Maybe I am giving them too much credit for thinking this through like that.
Posted by: scott   2003-03-24 19:40:17  

#19  My dad was with the 1st MarDiv in the Pacific WWII. Surrendering Japanese tried to take out yanks with hand grenades or other device when surrendering. So it came down to a couple of options: hose them and don't ask questions, or make them strip to prevent carrying hidden surprises. They forced us to be brutal. Most of the time Dad hosed down the caves and pillboxes with his amphib mounted flamethrower. Fake surrenders and ambushes were not pretty and it hardened our guys pretty fast, and more stayed alive after that.
Posted by: Alaska Paul   2003-03-24 13:33:19  

#18  heres something interesting - MSNBC/slate reported did a piece from Bagdada - headline is that locals hate us - although only evidence is from armed Iraqi looking for downed pilot in tigris (not exactly a representative sample, eh?) but in th midst of that is hidden this gem

"Explosions are rocking my computer as I write. For the first time, small-arms fire can be heard throughout the city. Anti-aircraft emplacements are set up around the perimeter of our hotel. It?s not a good sign. Yesterday those 500 meters from us were destroyed, completely destroyed, by American missiles."


Small arms fire!?!?! With coalition troops 50 miles away, and stuck taking on Republican guards? What can this mean??? Could it be connected to shutting of Tigris river bridges, that, IIUC, lead to mainly Shiite Saddam City slums? It sounds like SOMETHING is going on in Bagdad - I wonder what it is.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2003-03-24 13:14:02  

#17  Funny thing about liberation, Murat, they don't want to be liberated, but they're asking,
"Where's mine?"

Where's my water, my food, my schools, my humanitarian aid?

And par the course, the American taxpayer forks over for another 60 years and gets the shaft.

We really need to be looking at our UN and foreign aid budgets.

And Murat, you provide useful info and interesting counterbalance, but don't blame US for Ergodan thinking we only had "Plan A" which included Turkey.

And more of our troops will die, thanks to that policy. And "the world's* which is what they want anyway.

Most of us in the US are under no illusions. And those who are listening to the Baghdad Broadcasting Corp via NPR are getting an earful.
Posted by: Anonymous   2003-03-24 13:13:43  

#16  from a National Post (canada) embedded reporter with US Marines in SOuth-central Iraq.

"For many kilometres, civilians and soldiers were lined up, waving and blowing kisses at the passing vehicles holding U.S. Marines. Many begged for food. Each U.S. vehicle had been given two boxes of ready-to-eat rations suitable for Muslims. Some people came back for seconds, hiding the food they had already collected."
Posted by: liberalhawk   2003-03-24 12:56:00  

#15  What we found at Umm al Qasr

' One U.S. intelligence officer said he thinks the Ba'ath Party had told townspeople to give up leaflets they had collected or be killed.

"They went around collecting them so the people in the town wouldn't see them, wouldn't have them, wouldn't be able to read them," the officer told CNN.'

I'd certainly like to see celebrating Shiites, but its not like there arent reasons (like the above) why we havent seen them yet.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2003-03-24 11:31:16  

#14  We'll be liberators of the Kurds, right Murat? After all, they've been oppressed and subjugated for a long time....even in Iraq.
Posted by: Frank G   2003-03-24 11:05:52  

#13  "Besides where is the moral of the war anyway when it is revealed that even the southern Shia's don't welcome "liberators"."

Is this why Sammy's been too busy to make live broadcasts lately - he's been posting on Rantburg under a pseudonym?
Posted by: Bulldog   2003-03-24 10:22:14  

#12  I'll tell you what, Murat. For awhile we won't be "liberators". We'll be "conquerers" instead and destroy the Iraqi army. We'll be "liberators" and take care of civilian issues later. This seemed to work well in Japan and Germany a few years back.
Posted by: tu3031   2003-03-24 10:11:11  

#11  Besides where is the moral of the war anyway when it is revealed that even the southern Shia's don't welcome "liberators"
Posted by: Murat   2003-03-24 10:00:31  

#10  How hard it may sound these are still small scale tricks, real guerrilla warfare hasn’t shown yet. Nobody can imagine until you have seen it with own eyes, I have seen pregnant woman strapped with explosives blowing herself up killing dozens of soldiers who wanted to be gentle and help. Guerrilla warfare is much more nasty than what the Iraqis have shown till now. War with moral does not exist.
Posted by: Murat   2003-03-24 09:44:58  

#9  Murat,

Barring any moral judgment, you are correct that it is a clever guerrilla warfare tactic.

It is not my place to say, as I am not facing such Iraqi tactics, but I hope this approach by the fedayeen does not cause us to violate the Geneva treaty.

Maybe a solution is to have surrendering Iraqis strip down and lay prostrate on the sand with arms and legs spread. If they move without being instructed to move, then they are shot.

Of course, that could be a violation of the Geneva convention, too...


Posted by: mjh   2003-03-24 09:24:29  

#8  I have to agree with Murat, here, moral considerations apart.
Posted by: Anonymous   2003-03-24 09:19:46  

#7  Iraqi behavior seems to be trying to emulate Japanese techniques.

I wonder if they've considered the logical extension.
Posted by: Dishman   2003-03-24 09:12:29  

#6  "Clever" and "despicable" are not interchangeable terms. If "despicable" works, "clever" doesn't apply.
Posted by: VAMark   2003-03-24 08:59:40  

#5  Well, in terms of guerilla warfare it is clever, the republican guards achieve by this that regular Iraqi soldiers won't surrender that easily and US soldiers will take more time to asure / secure themselves.
Posted by: Murat   2003-03-24 08:45:47  

#4  Heh..."Clever"

As has been floating around the blogosphere:
"The most humane soldiers in the world are US soldiers, The deadliest soldiers in the world are pissed off US soldiers"

"Killing" is the wrong word. "Unlawful executions" is the proper word.

These are the desperate tactics of a dying regime...
Posted by: mjh   2003-03-24 08:44:19  

#3  I wouldn't use the word "clever", Murat. This is nothing new. But it will result in many more deaths, primarily of regular Iraqis troops trying to surrender and get the hell out of an unwinnable situation. Is that clever, or sick?
Posted by: Bulldog   2003-03-24 08:28:32  

#2  This must be a clever attempt of the republican guard members, killing US soldiers while pretending surrender will slow down the advance even more and it will make it harder for the Iraqi soldiers to surrender also.
Posted by: Murat   2003-03-24 07:28:17  

#1  Here's the link for this article. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81921,00.html
Posted by: Kerry   2003-03-24 05:55:40  

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