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| Iraq |
| Bend it like Cheney |
| 2003-10-29 |
| The ZI survey was one of only a handful that have been conducted in Iraq since the fall of Saddam. As with the others, its results must come with a health warning: the sample was small — 600 Iraqis were surveyed, in four cities: Basra (Iraq’s second largest, home to 1.7 million people, in the south), Mosul (in the north), Kirkuk (a Kurdish-influenced oil city), and Ramadi (a resistance hotbed in the so-called Sunni triangle) - and the survey was conducted in difficult conditions by a western agency. However, spin can only distort an already confused picture. Other numbers go further to dampen the vice president’s and the AEI’s rosy interpretations. For example, when asked if "democracy can work in Iraq", 51% said "no; it is a western way of doing things and will not work here." And attitudes toward the US were not positive. When asked whether, over the next five years, they felt that the "US would help or hurt Iraq", 50% said that the US would hurt Iraq, while only 35.5% felt the US would help. On the other hand, 61% of Iraqis felt that Saudi Arabia would help Iraq in the next five years, as opposed to 7.5% who felt Saudi Arabia would hurt their country. Half felt that the UN would help Iraq, while 18.5% felt it would hurt. Iran’s rating was very close to the US’s, with 53.5% of Iraqis saying Iran would hurt them in the next five years, while only 21.5% felt Iran might help them. It is disturbing that the AEI and the vice-president could get it so wrong. Their misuse of poll numbers to make the point they wanted to make resembles the way critics have noted that the administration used "intelligence data" to make a case to justify the war. But wishing something to be can’t make it so. For the administration to continue to tell itself and the American people that "all is well," only means that needed changes in policy will not be made. Consider some of the other poll findings: · Over 55% give a negative rating to "how the US military is dealing with Iraqi civilians". Only 20% gave the US military a positive rating.There are important lessons here; lessons policy-makers ought to heed if they are to help Iraq move forward. What Iraqis appear to be telling us is that they have hope for the future, but they want the help of their neighbours more than that of the US. That may not be what Washington wants to hear, but it ought to listen. Because if policymakers continue to bend the data to meet their desired policy, then this hole they are digging will only get deeper. Even the polls of American magazines (which try to picture the reality more positive than it is) show how Iraqis think of Americans |
| Posted by:Murat |
| #24 I love polls they usually tell you NOTHING that you wnat to know. I saw many polls that had the recall election in a dead heat here in California but in fact it was never a race. Arabs are no differnt than anyone else taking a poll. they usually tell you what you want to hear and not how they feel. I would suspect that a GREAT many Iraqis don like us or the conquest of their country. Hell I wouldn't like it if my country was invaded. But the idea of an Arab force swooping in to provide 'security' is too funny. None of the Arab heavies have an Army large enough to send a Division-size force to Iraq. Those that have the force, have their own internal security problems and can't spare the people. I love the idea of the Turks patrolling the Sunni triangle, but I don't think the Iraqis would like the way they 'pacify' an area. Bottom line is that the Iraqis can wish for an Arab Legion to help them but they are not going to get one. Best bet is to get a Turk and Korean zone side-by-side. Let the Bathists chew on that one. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2003-10-29 5:50:40 PM |
| #23 Murat, when you post in future, please put"posted by Murat"at the top, not the bottom. It would save time. |
| Posted by: Grunter 2003-10-29 5:49:50 PM |
| #22 Anisia.not hardly,murat.I very well do remember.I remember the Vaugnted Islamic Solidarity with the People of Iraq. Answer my question! "If haveing America save these people from the most despicable thug in the ME is so heinious to you people why did you not do something about Saddam and his murderous sons. Don't give me that song and dance about"The Qouran says no Muslem shall harm another Moslem,and that all Moslems are required to protect all Moslems from non-believers". Could it possibly be your shame is so great you can't admit your own dispicable,enableing behavior even to yourself? |
| Posted by: Raptor 2003-10-29 2:18:21 PM |
| #21 "57% support Arab forces to provide security." Vhat is dis "Arab Forces", Toyota pick-ups with old Soviet machine guns duct taped to the roof. |
| Posted by: Lucky 2003-10-29 1:14:28 PM |
| #20 Murat - kinda funny how Germany and france represent the international community. If you take a hard look there is an international presence - Poles, Ukrainians, Spanish, Nicaraguans, Honduran, Mongolians, of the course Brits, Australians and some others. There are not too many countries that can contribute significantly – as for the Indians and Paks – they are best left out of this picture. Never will we allow our and our friends security to be dictated by your so called international assortment. If you cannot see the power play attempted by france then you are an idiot. france would rather have a voice in a world of disorder than no voice in a world of order. Turkey is just peeved because we will not play ball when it comes to their historical claims on the region. You are a troll who uses just pieces of information to spew your bullshit! |
| Posted by: Dan 2003-10-29 1:08:26 PM |
| #19 Must...resist....urge to....laugh....at Ratman... |
| Posted by: Charles 2003-10-29 12:43:02 PM |
| #18 Murat chopped quite a bit of text-like the first half that was mostly favorable to the US! Murat, quit behaving like Herr Rove's people! |
| Posted by: Not Mike Moore 2003-10-29 12:32:58 PM |
| #17 Oh Raptor boy, Lucky me that I am not suffering the amnesia you do, a few decades ago it was the US aiding Saddam, he'd never got that much of power if he wasn't blessed by the White house, only after kuwait you guys declared him the bad boy remember. "Aiding" Saddam with what? Weapons? Not likely. This report details the extent of the U.S. "aid", which turns out to be civilian-use-intended helicopters. So do tell, where are all the U.S.-supplied bombs, missiles, and bullets? Yeah, Saddam got "power" all right, with helicopters, of all things. Hahahahahaha.... |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2003-10-29 10:38:32 AM |
| #16 "When asked whom they preferred to "provide security and restore order in their country, only 6.5% said the US, while 27% said the US and the UN together, 14.5% preferred only the UN, and the largest group, 45%, said they would prefer the "Iraqi military" to do the job alone. " this is a surprise? Its what I would expect, and what we here in the US want as well, and are trying to achieve. I dont see the results as inaccurate. The Iraqis are not jumping for joy with the current situation - well who would? They would rather the US not be running things- understandable - they are pragmatic however, and want the US to stay long JUST enough for them to get back on their feet. And they certainly realize that getting rid of Saddam was a good thing. And they'd like it if a hundred thousand fair, effective guys in blue helmets suddenly showed up - unfortunately thats not in the cards. Theyd also like it if we could assure security without searching their homes, etc - understandable, if not realistic (where i live everyone wants new schools, roads etc, but without increasing taxes to pay for them) |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2003-10-29 10:07:15 AM |
| #15 What happened to the international support? Since the approved UN resolution I'd expected Koreans, Pakistanis and Indians rushing in backed up by the Germans and French. Oops sorry I overlooked Malaysia with a crushing support of 196 troops, I guess the coalition forces are very reliefed now. |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-10-29 9:54:54 AM |
| #14 he'd never got that much of power if he wasn't blessed by the White house Yeah, and he was a friend to the Kurds--just like the Turks! Keep on parroting your conspiracy theories, Murat. Maybe the French will help you someday. |
| Posted by: BMN 2003-10-29 9:48:05 AM |
| #13 Murat - now please try and use some common sense. after the 79 hostage fiasco we had no choice but to support iraq agaisnt iran. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yes Saddam was a bad character but he blunted iranian revolution from spreading - and yes with American help. |
| Posted by: Dan 2003-10-29 9:47:17 AM |
| #12 Oh Raptor boy, Lucky me that I am not suffering the amnesia you do, a few decades ago it was the US aiding Saddam, he'd never got that much of power if he wasn't blessed by the White house, only after kuwait you guys declared him the bad boy remember. |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-10-29 9:32:46 AM |
| #11 Murat,You can read Turkey, cos the rest is of no meaning... Does not answer or alter the fact that not a single Muslem country gave a damn nor helped the Iraqi people,all you folks did was sit around with your collective thumbs up your collective ass'. If haveing America save these people from the most despicable thug in the ME is so heinious to you people why did you not do something about Saddam and his murderous sons. Don't give me that song and dance about"The Qouran says no Muslem shall harm another Moslem,and that all Moslems are required to protect all Moslems from non-believers".You Muslems just don't give a damn,if you cared what happens to the Iraqi people(you know those Brother and Sister Moslems you profess to care so much about)you would have put an end to Saddam and company decades ago. |
| Posted by: Raptor 2003-10-29 9:24:54 AM |
| #10 As with all polls it depends how good the sampling was of the population. Anyone can just go up to the first people on the street. The way the questions have been phrased is also so important, and don' t forget that fear has played such an important in peoples lives for the last 30 odd years that some will feel an implied duress to answer some of the questions. And last of all the "hidden agenda" always comes into play. Ha! |
| Posted by: Barry 2003-10-29 8:53:24 AM |
| #9 Thanx Catfish & Bulldog, an excellent Fisking of our local Rat. LOL - It just hit me what a zoo we have going here! Thanx, again, guys - it's a K.O. in the 1st round. |
| Posted by: .com 2003-10-29 8:50:31 AM |
| #8 I tend to disregard anything Murat posts, and don't have the energy, desire, or time to try and shoot down whatever anti-american spin/fallacious editing the boy's selling. Ignore and move on. Life is too precious |
| Posted by: Frank G 2003-10-29 8:44:06 AM |
| #7 Raptor, the IGC did not want any of Iraq's neighbors involved in the internal security of Iraq.You know the neighbors I'm talking about(Turkey,Saudi,Syria,Iran) You can read Turkey, cos the rest is of no meaning. Let’s be objective, Syria and Iran marked by the US as axis of evil are in no position to get involved in Iraq at all, leaves only Saudia whose army has no capacity to provide any meaningful numbers of troops. |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-10-29 8:42:21 AM |
| #6 Well Bulldog it didn't stop Cheney to take and bend the piece of the poll that suited him, by the way wasn't the poll taken by Zogby with American Enterprise magazine? |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-10-29 8:35:42 AM |
| #5 My apologies to the Guardian, I've re-read the original article, and discovered that it was Murat who chopped text suggesting that the poll was somewhat aged. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-10-29 8:21:45 AM |
| #4 It's worth noting the rather significant fact (a fact which the Guardian declines to point out and that I'll assume Murat is ignorant of) - that this poll was released on the 10th September - 50 days ago. There's also the fact that your article from the Guardian was written by: "Dr James J Zogby is president of the Arab American Institute. His brother, John Zogby, is the president of Zogby International, which carried out the poll in Iraq" The fact that the family which carried out the poll feels the need to write opinionated letters to a newspaper tying its findings to their own bias hardly engenders trust in the impartiality of the organisation behind it. You only have to read the Iraqi blogs to get an idea of how the opinions of Iraqis seem to be turning overwhelmingly against your so-called Iraqi Resistance. Or maybe you know of other, reliable, polls conducted more recently than almost two months ago? You know, Murat, for even the Guardian this is a pathetically unconvincing piece of anti-coalition propaganda. Must try harder. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-10-29 8:11:54 AM |
| #3 Still can't figure out that title/link thing, eh Muron? |
| Posted by: Parabellum 2003-10-29 8:08:19 AM |
| #2 Murat,for once,would you stop looking at skewed opinion polls. 600 out a population of 28 million is stastistacally insugnificant.Why don't you try visiting one of the Iraqi blogs,or even one of the blogs set-up by American soldiers.At least then you might get a sense of what is happenning on the ground(straight from the horse's mouth so-to-speak).It serves no-one to blindly accept the word of a pollster who twist the questions/answers to fit thier own needs/agenda.Come-on man don't be afraid to have your bubble burst,can't you think for yourself for once? It wasn't but a couple of weeks ago that a member(can't remember wich one)said that the IGC did not want any of Iraq's neighbors involved in the internal security of Iraq.You know the neighbors I'm talking about(Turkey,Saudi,Syria,Iran),the ones who had absolutly no desire to help the Iraqi people get Saddam and sons boot off thier The Iraqi people's neck. |
| Posted by: Raptor 2003-10-29 8:07:04 AM |
| #1 The poll in question was conducted by Zogby International, and the writer is Zogby's brother -- chair of the Arab-American Institute. Note also, the story is in the Guardian, not known to be a friend to U.S. policies. Now, I think Zogby means well and I trust his numbers in other situations -- but don't you think there might be a wee bit of bias here? |
| Posted by: Catfish N. Cod 2003-10-29 8:01:04 AM |