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| Europe |
| "The Clash of Civilizations Will Not Happen" |
| 2004-01-22 |
| The following is part I of a three-part translation of a speech by the French foreign minister (Dominique de Villepin) that was delivered on January 17 at UNESCO. Translation from the Radical. Part II is posted first, then scroll down for PartI |
| Posted by:tipper |
| #16 Part III is now up at the Radical. Read it and weep. As a mattter of interest, I ran that speech through Bullfighter and it gave it 37% for clarity, andcame up with the following comment, which is about spot on "Diagnosis: Teetering on the edge of unclear. The overall meaning remains discernible, but it becomes possible to lose oneself in corollary thoughts, which may be worth exploration, but which can also detract from the core point of the written article." |
| Posted by: tipper 2004-1-22 9:57:26 PM |
| #15 "muslim roots of Europa" - This is complete nonsense. Modern Europe grew out of a Protestant north European tradition, and although France was a catholic country, it had a strong anti-clerical movement that was in many ways in tune with the protestant tradition. There is also a significant Jewish influence and earlier from the Italian states. To find a significant moslem contribution you have to go back about 500 years, and as I have explained before. The primary contribution of Islam was to have retained much of the Greek knowledge that had been lost in Europe. Although even that contribution was essentially a negative one, as it merely reinforced the idea that there could be new knowledge, previously considered heresy (literally). Galileo is a good example. |
| Posted by: Phil B 2004-1-22 6:21:35 PM |
| #14 What ever happened to Gaullism? Indeed. He was France. Sigh. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-1-22 4:57:55 PM |
| #13 Once again France proves to the world their leadership views are still stuck in the late 17th century. There not only definitely IS a "Clash of Civilizations" (and has been since ~1945), but France is one of the focal-points of that clash. The fact that they deny it is just another reason why the rest of the world despises the French and their snotty attitude. |
| Posted by: Old Patriot 2004-1-22 3:19:58 PM |
| #12 " La France est un pays du Maghreb" (French urban affairs minister Jean-Louis Borloo). And "al-Maghrib" in Arab is the Islamic West. "La France est un peuple européen de race blanche, de culture grecque et latine, et de religion chrétienne" (de Gaulle). What ever happened to Gaullism? |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-1-22 3:06:04 PM |
| #11 Of course the roots of Europa are as Muslim as they are Christian. There were two sides at Battle of Poitiers. I'm just not sure which side Chirac and de Villepin would have been on... |
| Posted by: Fred 2004-1-22 3:04:50 PM |
| #10 Does anyone have any idea what he was thinking about when he made that remark? I mean, it's true, if you consider invaders and a thousand-year-long threat of invasion as major influence on Europe, but not NEARLY as important as the Christian and pre-Christian influences on Europe. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-1-22 1:31:46 PM |
| #9 Basically, in november 2003 during a discussion at the Elysé with Philippe de Villier, an allied right-wing catholic-oriented politician, Chirac mentionned the "muslim roots of Europe"; can't remember if that was an "off" conversation that was reported by PdV, or a public one, but the remark is not invented. I'm not making this up. «Les racines de l'Europe sont autant musulmanes que chrétiennes.» The roots of Europa are as muslim as they are christian. |
| Posted by: Anonymous coward 2004-1-22 1:25:43 PM |
| #8 muslim roots of Europa Duh f$%#? Would someone explain that to me? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-1-22 1:12:00 PM |
| #7 Seymour, denying the clash of civilization is the favorite hobby of the chattering class in France. Friend ship and cooperation with the "other side of the medditerranea sea" is what matters, so a clash is not possible. Why, Borloo, our minstry of urbanizing casually told that France was a "Magrheb country" on radio, and Our Dear President Jacques "82%" Chirac talked about the "muslim roots of Europa". So, you see, there is no clash. And if there is a clash of civilization, it is to only as an excuse for US appetite. Funnily, the Huntington book is unavailable at Amazon.fr (Tm) since at least 2002 (but you can now buy it used), which indicates it has not been reprinted, or it is not offered by amazon.fr (Tm) |
| Posted by: Anonymous coward 2004-1-22 12:42:43 PM |
| #6 It was hard to read the text in the Radical since it seemed interpersed with comments, but if I did read it right (and perhaps not the entire article) one thing seemed missing: who is clashing? He does refer to Muslim fanaticism but it is extremely nuanced. Did I miss something? The clash is all about Western Civilization (Greco-Roman-Judeo-Chrisian-Enlightment) vs the Islamic World. Was he afraid to discuss this? |
| Posted by: Seymour Paine 2004-1-22 10:15:22 AM |
| #5 Civilizations always clash, it's just that the loonytoons Muslims take it personally. |
| Posted by: Hiryu 2004-1-22 9:21:34 AM |
| #4 "The clash of civilizations will not happen . . . we will surrender first!" |
| Posted by: Mike 2004-1-22 9:11:15 AM |
| #3 2000 Warsaw Declaration: 107 attendees voted "YES" on advocating democratic reform for ALL nations. One nation voted "NO" -- France.... |
| Posted by: Garrison 2004-1-22 7:23:16 AM |
| #2 Never before have universal values so merited their name and never before has there been a better forecast for democracy Universal values!?! sheesh, de Villepin (I hear he's a man), has the first part of that statement dead wrong as evidenced by the head scarf riots,and Paleo mothers strapping on C4 belts, as well as numerous other examples of beastial behavior. He may not want to think that there is a war of civilizations on, so he will do what the French do in time of crisis - nothing, except try to obstruct everything the US does, all the while complaining loudly about it. Which brings up the second part of that statement about there has never been a better forecast for democracy, that is a fact, although that was brought about without any help from France. I got the impression from reading this that he thinks mighty highly of himself - well he is French after all. |
| Posted by: JerseyMike 2004-1-22 7:13:11 AM |
| #1 This is unreadable. Platitudes. I suppose that such forums and their speeches are always so but when you hear Villepin talk, he really does sound like an academic - the bad kind. His ideas are dated and he offers nothing specific in the way of actually dealing with real situations. The French are ideologically bankrupt. |
| Posted by: Tokyo Taro 2004-1-22 3:55:31 AM |