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| Kenya Muslims Say No to US School Funds | ||||
| 2004-02-26 | ||||
MUSLIM LEADERS have in effect sealed their rejection of an offer by Washington to fund Islamic religious schools in Kenya, by refusing to meet US ambassador William Bellamy during his recent visit to Coast province.
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| Posted by:Fred Pruitt |
| #13 Good points all. Christianity is quite binary. However, I feel our evolution has come from realizing that there's a lot less stuff that should be regarded AS binary, and that there's a lot of stuff that God doesn't give a sh*t about... |
| Posted by: Ptah 2004-2-26 7:39:00 PM |
| #12 You both make great points, and I know the frustration you feel .com, because I often feel the same way. Where is all the rage? No one said any of this was ever going to be easy, or resolved quickly. I'm out of here, and this is why I like RB. There are some pretty good discussions to be had. |
| Posted by: Lil Dhimmi 2004-2-26 5:32:18 PM |
| #11 Gentlemen. Just to keep this in perspective, note [rant]...[/rant] tags. Lil Dhimmi - I wish the Sufis had the oil fields of Eastern S.A., but then if they had been there, they would've been run off by the House of Saud's Wahhabis, just as were the Shi'a who JFM said originally occupied it. The more virulent form of Islam has been in the ascendency since its inception. Read the Haddiths for the philosophy and decent history books for the effect. Since I was in S.A. I did see Islam at its worst. I won't soon forget it. As for the moderate forms of Islam, such as the Sufis, see below... LH - The Wahhabi money has held sway where it was used, whether efficiently spent or not is a nit you can knock youself out picking. I find the actual effect more important. Where applied, it has radicalized and created jihadis. Your description of PakiWakiLand becoming the stew of insanity it is today makes MY point, not yours. Domestic honey bee, meet Africanized bee. Where the madrassah grads interact with less virulent forms, they are dominant - they get support, funding, shelter, and recruits. The moderate Muslim is a Muslim first, other labels are secondary, and will do their bidding when confronted by a jihadi type. This is obvious, isn't it? Perhaps, where you can keep them isolated from the loonies, they maintain their original identities, beliefs, and customary practices. Where they have been infiltrated, they do not. Like everyone else here in RB, I've waited for the (Mythical???) Moderate Muslim to stand up on his hind legs and decry the actions of his radical Muslim brother. I've waited for something effective, not a Jordanian Hashemite "king" of the true Palestine to make a half-hearted wishy-washy plea, but a condemnation which matches the actions of the jihadis. One that declares them blasphemous, that ostracizes them, that denies them support, that makes it state policy that they be hunted down by every right-thinking Muslim and turned in or taken out. Nothing less will be effective, will it? Where state agencies have confronted the jihadis, I applaud their successes. These are very few and far between and of little effect in the global scheme. In S.A. this is just Nayef's window dressing for Abdullah - much ado about nothing. In Afghanistan you have warlords as the real underlying problem. Paki is Waki and it was the Wahhabists who did the deed. As for the Algerians vs. the Salafists - how long has this gone on? Does it have any effect outside of Algeria? The Israelis did all of the heavy-lifting, and most of the dying, up until the US received its series of wake-up calls. Now we have assumed Atlas' mantle for all but the tiny sliver of land that is Israel + West Bank + Gaza - all of which would fit inside the King Ranch a few hundred times. If you can save the Muslims from the Wahhabis, please do. Meantime, we have to do more than pretend the moderates are winning the confrontation with them. Obviously, they are not. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-2-26 5:10:29 PM |
| #10 Great points LH, we will have a better fight on the WOT if we work with those who also have strong feelings against our enemies. Remember the Northern Alliance? I think they were Muslims, and they were on our side. |
| Posted by: Lil Dhimmi 2004-2-26 5:09:36 PM |
| #9 lets talk numbers who's fighting the jihadis we have 100,000 us troops fighting in Iraq, 10,00 in afghan, several thousand in east africa, and a few thousand Spec ops and CIA around the world. All told less than 150,000 at any given time, outside the US. The Iraqis have almost 100,000 police, Civil defence, border patrol, etc on the line. The Afghans have about 8000 army troops, plus thousands of pro-coalition militia. The Pakis have just launched an assault in NWFP with over 10,00o troops, and of course Pak cops have lost their lives fighting jihadis in Pak cities. AS have, yes - Saudi police and troops. The algerian army has faught persistently against the local Salafists, as has the Egyptian army and police. Indonesian and Turkish and moroccan police have pursued islamists and made arrests. The israeli army included Druze and Beduin soldiers. Mohammed dahlans loyalists have taken their first open violent action against Arafats loyalists. The pals turn in the muslim civil war hasnt happened yet, but it will soon. |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2004-2-26 3:53:25 PM |
| #8 "Islam is designed to be binary; designed to be confrontational; designed to be intolerant; designed to be dominant; designed to subjugate all others; designed to be predatory; designed to be implacable; designed to be virulent; designed to be deadly. The only response left to us is to oppose it, to fight back, to eradicate it." In agreement with Lil dhimmi, but lets take it further. then why do millions of muslims around the world resist the Wahabi assault on their local, often (but not always) sufi traditions, why did Saudi have to spend so much money and effort to get them to go the wahabi way. all the three monotheist religions have things you can quote showing their intolerance, binary character, etc. all have evolved along different lines historically from those quotes. Christianity and Judaism have evolved more decisively AWAY from binariness and intolerance, for good historical reasons most clearly shown in Bernard Lewis's "what went wrong". This is not so much a clash of civilizations, as it is a clash WITHIN a civilization - from Morocco to Turkey to Kurdistan to Baghdad to Iran to Indonesia to Tanzania to Uzbekistan to Afghanistan to Pakistan. The guys who focus on hearts and minds are the US Marines, who have spent the better part of a century fighting small wars, and now whereof they speak. NOT academics, lawyers, journos, NGO's or other namby pamby liberals, but US marines whose job it is to deal put down insurgenies, deal with local populations, and restore order. This IS NOT handwringing. Its truth. Its often uncomfortable truth - let me be the first to point out, the "moderates" who want nothing to do with Al Qaeeda will nonetheless excuse the murder of MY PEOPLE in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem - I dont flinch ONE BIT from my beleif that Israel, even under Sharon, is largely in the right in what it has done - but convincing every muslim in the world to agree with me on that IS NOT job one today, nor is it necessary to kill every last muslim adult because of that. Look at the history of Pakistan. It wasnt always as it is now. Pakistan, born essentially a Kemalist state under whiskey guzzling Jinnah, was MADE into what it is now, by a group of EVIL people who were VERY cognizant of the importance of hearts and minds - who used money, and madrassahs, and media, as well as guns and bombs. If we are SERIOUS about this war, we will be as serious in using money, and schools (even madrassahs where necessary), and ideas, as we are with guns and bombs. |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2004-2-26 3:47:15 PM |
| #7 Great rant .com, and I agree with almost everything you stated. However, not all Muslims, fall into everything you stated torwards the end there. I'm referring particularly to Sufis, as they do generaly get along with others not of their same beliefs. See the above post on jihadis trying to recruit in Africa. Also I haven't seen them trying to get revenge in the Balkans for all that happened there. They pretty much more or less are just trying to get on with their lives. Wahhabis on the other hand should all be handed their asses to hell where they belong. |
| Posted by: Lil Dhimmi 2004-2-26 2:50:25 PM |
| #6 No to reform, no to polio shots, ban them from coming here. |
| Posted by: Anonymous2U 2004-2-26 1:56:47 PM |
| #5 And here I thought the "winning hearts and minds" idiocy had been thoroughly discredited and discarded long long ago. I guess the theorists are in the ascendent phase, again. [rant] I know, it's sad. "They" know nothing else, have heard nothing else, and understand nothing else -- so in the most generous sense, they're innocents. But, in actuality, they are armed and actively engaged in trying to snuff out our way of life. Sympathy makes no sense if it gets you killed. Those who are not engaged in such a binary ideology, an "us or them" with no other options available, do not generate the same response. Do we militarily engage people because they're animists? Or polytheists? Or frequently go bowling? Or ballroom dancing enthusiasts? Or love old Broadway tunes? No, though the Broadway bit may make us a little antsy around them. No, only those with whom we can't "live and let live" generate the survival response. Anyone we might dream of using the "hearts and minds" approach with is not interested in what we have to say -- and is never going to listen, learn, or change. Sure, they want TV's and DVD players and softer sweeter-smelling prayer rugs and A/C for the moskkk. But the Izzoids have amply demonstrated that they will just watch jihadi movies and the sermons of sick imams. If you're offering anything else, you're going uphill against an indoctrination process that began at birth. As Lil Dhimmi points out, Jew Hating 101 and The History of Crusader Atrocity are already in place. We will not be able to displace it - the proof is obvious. Only those who throw off the yoke themselves, of their own volition, for whom the implanted programming never took root, can be spared. For them, we keep an avenue of escape open, but no more than that makes sense. In the final analysis, this is about who gets to indoctrinate the children. Islam or the Free World. If you look around and discard your prejudices, it's apparent that once an individual reaches late adolescence / young adult, the die is cast. This, in simplified terms, is why I find myself accepting capital punishment as the only response left to us: If it's all grown up and it's broken, well, you're just gonna have to kill it. It can't be reformed if you can't displace / override the programming. Once a successful predator, few can be brought back to become happy vegetarians. Those who can be brought back do it voluntarily. The rest continue to prey until you kill them. For all predatory mindsets, including simple criminal activity as a way of life (per Goodfellows), the answer ends up at the same place: If you can't take their children away from them before the indoctrination takes place, you fail. The resulting individual is a carrier, as well as a predator. You'll have to sterilize it to remove its influence; you'll have to kill it to prevent it preying. Islam is designed to be binary; designed to be confrontational; designed to be intolerant; designed to be dominant; designed to subjugate all others; designed to be predatory; designed to be implacable; designed to be virulent; designed to be deadly. The only response left to us is to oppose it, to fight back, to eradicate it. Predatory, implacable, seeking total dominance, institutionalized barbarism straight out of the Dawn of Man, and utterly intolerant of any other way of life. That's an accurate description of Islam in practice. The ultimate pathogen of the human mind. [/rant] |
| Posted by: .com 2004-2-26 12:02:48 PM |
| #4 Expect the ACLU to sue based on seperation of church and state. |
| Posted by: Ptah 2004-2-26 10:19:01 AM |
| #3 I can't say if they have been successful or not, but we have been giving these places funds to change their curriculum from the Wahhabi hate filled crap, to stuff that can actually help the kids get a job later on. We're basically trying to get them to drop Jew Hating 101 and The History of Crusader Atrocity for stuff like Math and Science. I can see this being successful in Afghanistan where there were not very much schools/madrassas in the first place, but it will be much more difficult to implement in Pakiland. I still can't imagine this being successful with the Saudis unless some major change occurs there. |
| Posted by: Lil Dhimmi 2004-2-26 9:44:25 AM |
| #2 "Washington has successfully carried out similar campaigns in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia" Intersting, would like to hear more about this. |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2004-2-26 9:11:40 AM |
| #1 9:45 PM PST, 27 posts. It's Lucky against the world! |
| Posted by: Lucky 2004-2-26 12:47:00 AM |