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| F-15 Gives Up Its Crown |
| 2004-03-22 |
| Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o’clock by a couple of F-15s belonging to the USAFE’s 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history. |
| Posted by:Yosemite Sam |
| #20 Kind of tough for the RAF to be 'comfortably gunning the trailing one'when the RAF version has no cannons... |
| Posted by: CAG Hotshot 2004-10-17 7:14:25 PM |
| #19 An advanced jet fighter with a coward european flying it...is just a plane. It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, It's the size of the fight in the dog. There ain't no fight in a european dog. |
| Posted by: Texan 2004-3-22 11:38:55 PM |
| #18 Did anyone notice that this was from Strategypage's hot discussion topics section and not actually an article put out by Dunnigan. Any moron could have posted this including someone who is trying to make sure the f-22 is not scrapped. How accurate is this report? I have no idea, but I would like to see something with a bit more authority than this. Take a look at some of the other hot topics. You cannot tell me that "T-95: the end of M1A2 Superiority" and "China: EVIL AMERICANS" were not written by Russian and Chinese trolls respectively just looking to get a good rise out of people. |
| Posted by: matt 2004-3-22 8:15:32 PM |
| #17 Its all part of the deal Bush made with Blair: 1. Release the 5 British bozolamists from Gitmo 2. Take off the steel import duty 3. Get Sarah Ferguson a job with Weight-Watchers 4. Give them light duty in Basra 5. Let the Eurofighter win one 6. Put Gibraltar firmly in the UK camp by having the Spainards elect a real bozoidiot |
| Posted by: Jack is Back! 2004-3-22 6:11:20 PM |
| #16 I thought the F-15 lost its title when the Independence Day aliens showed up. But seriously, great posts, guys. I should get course credit at Rantburg. |
| Posted by: Scott 2004-3-22 5:21:48 PM |
| #15 MIG-31, anyone? Not to put a fly in the ointment, or the last SU ? |
| Posted by: Chuck Simmins 2004-3-22 4:02:32 PM |
| #14 Frank, you mean, you think Mike actually knows something about weapons systems? He didn't even include color-coded cutaway diagrams of the two planes with his post. (Mike, just kidding. Diagrams not necessary. I'm truly impressed.) You never see this kind of thing on the DU site. |
| Posted by: Matt 2004-3-22 3:56:36 PM |
| #13 The French are not part of Eurofighter. They wanted lead, didn't get it, and instead designed Rafale. I stand corrected. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-3-22 3:05:28 PM |
| #12 thanks for summing it up way better then i could have mike.I tried :) .You must have been posting earlier when i was so i didn't see your post before mine went up if ya get what i mean.Thanks for a better summing up anyway. |
| Posted by: Shep UK 2004-3-22 2:59:59 PM |
| #11 this is why I read Rantburg |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-3-22 2:54:27 PM |
| #10 Not quite an Article 15 but a Letter of Reprimand. Extra duty. BTW, I got one of those Letters. Missed two Comanders Call (in a row!), Ouch, it was my day off, I was sleeping, nobody told me, I worked late the night before. Piss'n and moan'n. |
| Posted by: Lucky 2004-3-22 2:41:32 PM |
| #9 Agreee. Weight and Balance and configuration on the E model is considerably different than the C/D. "Considerably" here means different enough to affect the outcome. In any case an F16 can turn inside of an F15C/D/E. |
| Posted by: anymouse 2004-3-22 2:39:47 PM |
| #8 Mike - GREAT post! |
| Posted by: Yosemite Sam 2004-3-22 2:37:10 PM |
| #7 When the Typhoons actually shoot down a plane, give me a call. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-3-22 2:35:58 PM |
| #6 The French are not part of Eurofighter. They wanted lead, didn't get it, and instead designed Rafale. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-3-22 2:34:26 PM |
| #5 Still, with all the good press, I imagine the French will be able to sell quite a few of them to China. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-3-22 2:28:30 PM |
| #4 it wasn't as clear cut as the above report makes out though,do some looking into it and you find that the 2 F-15's, both E models incidently, were returning from a bombing range (practice) and were bounced by a couple of Eurofighters from the 7'oclock. Give the Alaskan Based F-15s with thier AESA radars and watch them mince the Euros,still loads of life in her yet. |
| Posted by: Shep UK 2004-3-22 2:19:27 PM |
| #3 Sam - Normally, I accept with little or no rservation anything from StrategyPage - its founder, Jim Dunnigan, is one of the absolute best at what he does (though damned poitically incorrect, which is why he didn't show up much during OIF), but this says nothing that proves to me that the F-15 has lost its crown. First of all, the F-15s from the 48th were E-model StrikeEagles, the air-to-ground version of the Eagle. Although the Strike Eagle is just as capable at air-to-air as the standard C and D model Eagles, its pilots are not trained to the same extent in air -to-air - their job is to put weapons on target. A good comparison would be if you had a great deal of experience driving high-performance sports cars on a highway, then you were told that for a couple of years, you'd be driving the NASCAR version in races. You could do it, probably quite easily, but the little things would be different - you'd be practicing and learning things differently every day. All of our pilots right now have slightly rusty skills because we are just now coming out of the 'No-Fly-Zone' mentality. They are not as good as they should be. With that in mind, remember that the Typhoon drivers were probably some of the best pilots the RAF has in service right now. Had they bounced guys from our 33rd FW, or my old friends at the 1st FW at Langley - who live, eat and breathe air-to-air - I think it would have been a different story. Second, the Eagleis not the 'best' dogfighter in the world and has never claimed to be. It is superbly maneuberable, but its design philosophy (just like that of the F-22) is to use missiles to kill the enemy, and then take on what's left - if necessary - with the gun. I have sat in the God Room at Nellis AFB during Red Flag exercises(think the briefing room in the movie 'Top Gun', only with three huge screens) and watched F-15s getting whacked on a regular basis by F-5s (a fifty year old design), F-16s (a 25 year old design), F-14s ( a 30 year old designs), and F-18s (a 25 year old design) and several others. The best jet powered dogfighter is quite probably the Northrop F-20 TigerShark, armed with AIM-120 AAMRAM missiles...and we didn't build that one. But the primary purpose of the F-15 is to do what Indiana Jones did to the Arab swordsman in 'Raiders of The Lost Ark'...and if we came up against a Typhoon -equipped opponent in real life, that is exactly what we would do. The article does have one very valid point, but doesn't state it as such: the first contact between an established combat aircraft and a new, state-of-the-art threat usually ends up with the newer system victorious...at first. The USAF has an extremely steep learning curve, and in combat it would,'t take long to figure out how to handle it - and more than likely, we'd just stand off and throw missiles at them. I intend for NONE of this to take away from the RAF and its skills and abilities. They should rightfully feel a great deal of pride in being able to take on 2 F-15 and win. The Typhoon is and will remain a formidable opponent for many years. But any story like this taken at face value leaves a lot out, and this story leaves out a great deal. Best regards, Mike |
| Posted by: Mike Kozlowski 2004-3-22 2:19:26 PM |
| #2 The F-15's design is over 30 years old, just to be clear on the age difference. I'd like to see a Eurofighter/F-22 matchup. |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2004-3-22 2:05:19 PM |
| #1 Time to send out the new F22's - we'll see who bounces whom... |
| Posted by: mojo 2004-3-22 2:00:04 PM |