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| Britain |
| Former Head of Church of England: Muslim Culture stinks |
| 2004-03-26 |
Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, launched a trenchant attack on Islamic culture last night, saying it was authoritarian, inflexible and under-achieving. In a speech that will upset sensitive relations between the faiths, he denounced moderate Muslims for failing unequivocally to condemn the "evil" of suicide bombers. He attacked the "glaring absence" of democracy in Muslim countries, suggested that they had contributed little of major significance to world culture for centuries and criticised the Islamic faith. Dr Carey’s comments, in a lecture in Rome, are the most forthright by a senior Church leader. He was speaking on the eve of a seminar of Christian and Muslim scholars in New York, led by his successor as archbishop, Dr Rowan "call me Hairy Leftie" Williams. He acknowledged that most Muslims were peaceful people who should not be demonised. But he said that terrorist acts such as the September 11 attacks on America and the Madrid bombings raised difficult questions. Contrasting western democracy with Islamic societies, he said: "Throughout the Middle East and North Africa we find authoritarian regimes with deeply entrenched leadership, some of which rose to power at the point of a gun and are retained in power by massive investment in security forces. "Whether they are military dictatorships or traditional sovereignties, each ruler seems committed to retaining power and privilege." Dr Carey said he was not convinced by arguments that Islam and democracy were incompatible, citing the example of Turkey. He urged Europeans and Americans to resist claims that Islamic states were morally, spiritually and culturally superior. "Although we owe much to Islam handing on to the West many of the treasures of Greek thought, the beginnings of calculus, Aristotelian thought during the period known in the West as the dark ages, it is sad to relate that no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries," he said. "This is a puzzle, because Muslim peoples are not bereft of brilliant minds. They have much to contribute to the human family and we look forward to the close co-operation that might make this possible. Yes, the West has still much to be proud of and we should say so strongly. We should also encourage Muslims living in the West to be proud of it and say so to their brothers and sisters living elsewhere." Dr Carey said that, while Christianity and Judaism had a long history of often painful critical scholarship, Islamic theology was only now being challenged to become more open to examination. "In the case of Islam, Mohammed, acknowledged by all in spite of his religious greatness to be an illiterate man, is said to have received God’s word direct, word by word from angels, and scribes recorded them later. Thus believers are told, because they have come direct from Allah, they are not to be questioned or revised. In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity." Dr Carey said that moderate Muslims must "resist strongly" the taking over of Islam by radical activists "and to express strongly, on behalf of the many millions of their co-religionists, their abhorrence of violence done in the name of Allah". He said: "We look to them to condemn suicide bombers and terrorists who use Islam as a weapon to destabilise and destroy innocent lives. Sadly, apart from a few courageous examples, very few Muslim leaders condemn clearly and unconditionally the evil of suicide bombers who kill innocent people. We need to hear outright condemnation of theologies that state that suicide bombers are martyrs and enter a martyr’s reward." Christians, who shared many values with Muslims, such as respect for the family, must speak out against the persecution they often encountered in Muslim countries. "During my time as archbishop, this was my constant refrain: that the welcome we have given to Muslims in the West, with the accompanying freedom to worship freely and build their mosques, should be reciprocated in Muslim lands," he said. Dr Carey, who initiated several top-level meetings between Christian and Islamic leaders during his time at Lambeth Palace, urged the West to tackle the Palestinian problem and other inequalities in the Muslim world. "It will do us little good if the West simply believes that the answer is to put an end to Osama bin Laden. Rather, we must put an end to conditions, distortions and misinformation that create him and his many emulators." Iqbal Sacranie, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said that Dr Carey’s comments "saddened" him. "He should be well aware that mainstream Muslim organisations have consistently |
| Posted by:Bulldog |
| #23 "Although we owe much to Islam handing on to the West many of the treasures of Greek thought, the beginnings of calculus, Aristotelian thought during the period known in the West as the dark ages, it is sad to relate that no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries," Bingo. That says it all right there. Jihad wars using children as instruments of foreign policy are not a sign of a civlilzation. In fact they can claim the honor of the only life force in all of nature which uses its young for self preservation, as seen by the mad Islamzoid mindset. |
| Posted by: Bill Nelson 2004-03-26 8:47:51 PM |
| #22 Anonymous Yes it sounds good but what they don't tell you is that Koran has two parts: the Mecca surates where there is tolerance and wisdom and the Medina surates (when Muhammad tastes power) who call for war, loot and murder. But the Medina surates are supposed to have been written later and thus they supercede the Mecca ones. Guess they didn't tell you that? And perhaps they told you "Islam" means "Peace"? This is a plain lie: "Islam" means submission, the Arabic word for Peace is Salam. |
| Posted by: JFM 2004-03-26 3:20:36 PM |
| #21 Lord Carey brings up alot of good points. Even though I believe the truth can come from more than one source and Islam sounds good when described by Muslims, but in reality it's a religion which has been led down the wrong road. There are not inherit checks and balances in Islam and that's its fate, to be our opposite, to reward death and killing. I should not feel anger towards many Muslims in the US, many of them realize this wrong life and are here in the US to escape from the lies of the Middle East. Time is relative for different cultures, the Islamic world is still a few centuries behind us. You look how brainwashed we all were 100-200 years ago and see that changing them is not going to be easy. |
| Posted by: Anonymous 2004-03-26 1:57:45 PM |
| #20 the beginnings of calculus Wha???? Yeah right. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-03-26 1:51:25 PM |
| #19 Thought I might be being called a motherfunker |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 1:34:29 PM |
| #18 Ten-Four. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 1:32:28 PM |
| #17 "Dr Carey is trampling on a very sensitive area by referring to the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet." There's the problem in a nutshell. Carey was trying to explain the merit of critical thinking, rationality, and clear-minded scholarship. Yet this moron, who is himself probably considered an infidel by the bin-Laden types for his "moderation," makes an implied threat against Carey for even daring to "refer" to the Koran and the Prophet. |
| Posted by: sludj 2004-03-26 12:38:04 PM |
| #16 Howard ROFLMAO = Rolling on floor laughing my arse off. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-03-26 11:18:06 AM |
| #15 This guy put into words a lot of what I've thought in the past. I just hope he doesn't get blasted for telling the truth. We don't only need to break the wall of silence - nothing's going to change unless they also realize that they're not above criticism. Hell, if our civilization can be blasted, so can theirs - and they've got a lot less to be proud of. |
| Posted by: The Doctor 2004-03-26 11:11:07 AM |
| #14 ROFLMAO Translation please. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 10:55:23 AM |
| #13 Titter titter. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 10:52:15 AM |
| #12 thank fuck for The Enlightenment ROFLMAO 5 words that best describe our western heritage. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-03-26 10:47:10 AM |
| #11 I just want to make it clear - I don't think Muslim's stink. I just think they need to help out more if they want to participate in the Great Experiment of Freedom and Democracy. While many of them are, many more are not pulliing their weight. |
| Posted by: B 2004-03-26 10:01:05 AM |
| #10 oh come on Texan. What needs to be destroyed is the moderate Muslim's wall of silence. They need to stand up and do what is right. Yet all they do is whine about someone giving them suspicious looks. Oh! Like we care anymore!! We get suspicious looks from security guards everytime we enter a building!! IMHO, if they can't do their part to protect everyone's freedom, then they aren't welcome here. Democracy REQUIRES citizen involvement and courage and allegience. Go home to the backwater despotic swamps you came from if you aren't willing to do your part as a citizen of the free world. |
| Posted by: B 2004-03-26 9:48:20 AM |
| #9 It's simple......muslims must be destroyed. |
| Posted by: Texan 2004-03-26 9:42:38 AM |
| #8 Clever c*nt. Probably right though - wasn't it supposedly a bastardisation of Indian food by the British Raj? I know my curry house is Halal tho' (and pretty fine). Anyway, thank fuck for The Enlightenment. I wish Carey had said this when he was in position. Brilliant, but will probably be 'fatwad' like Rushdie. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 9:34:34 AM |
| #7 Curry was a Hindu idea waasn't it ? Like Arabic numerals and zero, also Hindu. |
| Posted by: Anonymous 2004-03-26 9:24:01 AM |
| #6 "Although we owe much to Islam handing on to the West many of the treasures of Greek thought" This really pisses me off! It was the Byzantine Empire that preserved Greek heritage, not the friggin' muslims. |
| Posted by: Spot 2004-03-26 9:20:36 AM |
| #5 They may be a pain i the arse but they've brought us curry don't forget. Mmmmmmm Chicken Kashmiri tonight... |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 9:06:05 AM |
| #4 Moderate Muslims would be wise to act now, while there is goodwill between us. I find myself, daily, being forced to remind myself that most Muslims are just ordinary people. Still - I find also myself daily becoming more and more resentful that they take the liberties that we have offered them and shove them back in our face. If we had restricted them from coming here, we would not have armed guards and security searches everywhere we go. We'd be more concerned with schools and parks and health care than our survival. Their refusal to stand up and fight for the freedoms we have graciously provided them makes me feel more and more bitter every day. They have RUINED our free society with their backwater beliefs. I know that people are people. I know that. And many Muslims are good people. But as a whole, they have brought us nothing but armed guards and restrictions on the very freedoms we have provided to them. |
| Posted by: B 2004-03-26 8:55:26 AM |
| #3 Hear hear, Jarhead. Well said. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-03-26 8:52:00 AM |
| #2 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
| Posted by: Anonymous TROLL 2004-03-26 8:44:39 AM |
| #1 Moderate muslims (at least in the U.S.) are seen as giving tacit approval or turning a blind eye to terrorist attacks, in some cases like in Dearborn, Michigan where I grew up near it seems to be more then just tacit. Until they fully and completely condemn attacks, and put their adopted country which they are citizens of on par w/their faith - they will never be trusted. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-03-26 8:24:41 AM |