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| Russia | |
| Official: Russia has right to hit bases | |
| 2004-09-13 | |
Russia has the right to carry out pre-emptive strikes on militant bases abroad, Russia's defense minister said Sunday, citing the school hostage crisis. He said Moscow and the United States see eye to eye on fighting terrorism. Sergei Ivanov did not say what countries might be possible targets for a strike, but Russian officials in the past have said Chechen separatists have bases in nearby Georgia, and Moscow has had friction with that country's pro-U.S. government over the issue.
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| Posted by:Steve White |
| #53 If you are waiting for an answer, what exactly was your question? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-14 12:12:32 AM |
| #52 waiting...... |
| Posted by: SCpatriot 2004-09-14 12:01:18 AM |
| #51 Oh NO! Now we gotta worry about a hit on the Upper West Side of Manhattan? |
| Posted by: Anonymous5289 2004-09-13 11:11:31 PM |
| #50 Ok I get u but if u enter into the eu and it does it not have a central govenment that controls what the member states can do or not do How can u enforce the rules of the EU? A federation of States has been proven not to be able to survive without a central authority, example the U.S. under the articles of confederation, the Southern Confederacy , and now aparently the Russian Confederacy... I just dont get the reasoning that this one will work... i guess only time will tell good luck to ya |
| Posted by: SCpatriot 2004-09-13 10:24:08 PM |
| #49 SCPatriot, the EU is not a state, but a free association of states. It's not even a federation at this point. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-13 10:16:22 PM |
| #48 Zarathustra, no. There is a certain timeframe for mandatory discussions and efforts to settle the matter. If no agreement is reached, the respective country can leave unilaterally. Who really wants to leave can't and won't be stopped. It's obvious that the UK would be the first candidate to leave. My take is, they won't. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-13 10:14:55 PM |
| #47 Sorry for that then, i just know that our country has had an issue such as that and i wanted to know beforehand, cause it was understood that u could leave when u joined here and history does repeat itself |
| Posted by: SCpatriot 2004-09-13 10:14:38 PM |
| #46 Zarathustra, no, according to the (as yet unratified) constitution, whether a country will secede from the EU or not is entirely up to the country itself. Nobody can stop it. The most that the rest of the EU can do is negotiate exit terms -- and if negotiations collapse and no agreement can be reached, the member state simply ceases to be an EU member after a certain period of time passes (two years I think?). |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 10:14:05 PM |
| #45 TGA, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a required majority to approve a secession? So, for instance, if Czechs have only 2% of vote and the rest of the EU sez no f#@king way, they would be screwed. Notice or not. |
| Posted by: Zarathustra 2004-09-13 10:08:18 PM |
| #44 SCPatriot, I value your deep political analysis. It gives us such a perfect example of well-reasoned opposition to the EU. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 10:00:54 PM |
| #43 They can leave any time (after giving some notice). This topic has been debated at length here already. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-13 9:53:18 PM |
| #42 What happens if a Euro-cuntry wants to get out of the EU once it has Joined, will be the Abraham Linclone that will save the Sanctity of the Union, Will Member States be allowed to leave this Perfect Union, Unless it is a trouble State I.e. Turkey or Romania, Serbia etc. I doubt So, And will Poland give up its prized F-16s for the crappy euro-fighter that costs more than its worth. This EU reeks of Collectivism brought on by merciless French Socialism. and i hope it fails............... |
| Posted by: SCpatriot 2004-09-13 9:51:11 PM |
| #41 Yeah, I know the constitution has a slim chance of passing -- though it's not the French I'm worried about: If the French (and Germans) accepted to drop their currency, I fail to see what's in the constitution that will make them reject it now. I heard the two biggest French parties will be in favour of Yes for example. Even if the constitution doesn't make it as a whole, some of its individual provisions(abolishing the rotating presidency, creating the position of Foreign Minister, removing some of the vetos) might in time be passed individually with different treaty amendments. But we'll see. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 9:50:06 PM |
| #40 I'm afraid the constitution won't make it Aris... even the French seem to be negative |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2004-09-13 9:42:56 PM |
| #39 The EU is a mighty bulwark against the returning encroachment of eastern fascism -- I know for a fact that the EU is pretty much the only thing that stopped Greece from fully joining a neofascist Orthodox axis of Russia-Serbia-Greece in the early 90s. And I believe the EU is now the only thing that (ever so slowly) moves Serbia away from Russia and towards the West. But the EU has no army, and no common defense treaty yet. Until the constitution gets ratified the veto and multiplicity of voices makes it as externally weak as can be, and even after its ratification the situation improves but a mere iota. A mighty bulwark against encroaching fascism in the political life of its member states and neighbours. But not against the *armies* of a fascist power. And certainly not in a position to militarily help a third nation. Not yet. Possibly not for a very long while. The EU, Shipman, simply ensured that you won't be seeing Greek and Serb troops out there alongside the Russians, killing the Georgians. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 9:34:57 PM |
| #38 Giving myself 7.5 on derailing. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-09-13 8:19:52 PM |
| #37 There is nothing to fear from a resurgent Russian state, the EU is a mighty bulwark. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-09-13 8:19:16 PM |
| #36 They should consider renaming themselves to something more pronouncable. :-) |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 2:49:26 PM |
| #35 I'm against the Russians. And I'm against the Islamofascists. What about the Saskatchewans? |
| Posted by: lex 2004-09-13 2:40:24 PM |
| #34 Yeah, right now you are "either with the Russians or against them", right? Sanity be damned. Right and Wrong be damned. It's futile even to discuss whether the claims about Georgian support for terrorists are true or not. The only thing that matters is that Russia wants Georgian territory so Georgia must go to hell. Heil Putin, you people granting Sudetenland to the new Fuhrer. I'm against the Russians. And I'm against the Islamofascists. The Beslan massacre may have given Russia cover to conquer a peaceful Georgia but that "cover" is only adequate to the fascists and genocide-supporters among us; it has not fallen on me yet. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 2:34:07 PM |
| #33 Aris, you live in a world of the past. Your war of "words" is cute and clever - but meaningless. Might and deeds matter now. Blather on. It no longer matters whether Georgians have taken a "firm stand against terrorists". What matters is what damage Russia is capable of inflicting against those who oppose them. Belsan gave them cover to act - it doesn't matter how or why. |
| Posted by: feeling bitchy 2004-09-13 2:07:23 PM |
| #32 I don't worry about Russians right or will to attack foreign terror bases, I worry about their lack of means. |
| Posted by: Rerailer 2004-09-13 1:41:10 PM |
| #31 Anonymous> You made a claim. That the Georgians have not taken a firm stand against terrorists. You have the right to refuse to back it up and pretend you are doing so for personal reasons. I have the right to assume that the actual reason you aren't backing it up is because you can't. Either way, you are irrelevant to me -- the truthfulness or falsehood of your claim is the only thing that I'm interested in. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 1:17:10 PM |
| #30 Aris - what makes your drivel is worth responding to? |
| Posted by: Anonymous6417 2004-09-13 12:48:27 PM |
| #29 What makes you think however that the Georgians have not taken a "firm enough stand against terrorists"? It seems to me that we only have Russia's word about that, which last I heard was not gospel. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 12:46:00 PM |
| #28 ZF - I not exactly disagreeing with your point - I'm just saying that if that's what the Russians always intended to do - then the Georgians - by not taking a firm enough stand against terrorists - will now find they've made the job a whole lot easier for the Russians. The outrage of Belsan will give them plenty of cover. That's what happens when you lose the moral high ground by not rooting out the terrorists. Not sure there is much to disagree with me on this here. |
| Posted by: Anonymous6417 2004-09-13 12:37:08 PM |
| #27 Hey, Vlad! WANNA BORROW A MOAB? |
| Posted by: BigEd 2004-09-13 12:18:56 PM |
| #26 A6417: As for me, I'm suffering from pity overload for people who can't manage to root out "terrorists" in their midst. The issue isn't whether Russia has the right to root out terrorists (it does); it's whether the Russians are lying about Chechen terrorist activity in Georgia. I think the Chechen terrorist movement is home-grown. In any event, we'll find out soon, if Russia makes a push into Georgia. If terrorist attacks die down, then Georgia provided sanctuary for the Chechen. If they don't die down, then we know the Russians were either mistaken, or they weren't telling the truth. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-09-13 12:17:56 PM |
| #25 The aftermath of Beslan is being used to expand Russia's territory rather than fight terrorists. Well, you know ZF, after the Belsan massacre, it just garners a big yawn from me. Just like that cleric who got gunned down today. Yawn. It's a pity. There so many themes for a pity parties these days and so little time. Maybe the AQ bigs should have considered the green light they were giving Putin and Uncle Same to fight back, before they fell the WTC and shot children in the back. As for me, I'm suffering from pity overload for people who can't manage to root out "terrorists" in their midst. |
| Posted by: Anonymous6417 2004-09-13 11:52:10 AM |
| #24 FG: that sentence made absolutely no sense...try again? The Russians used Shamil Basayev, the Chechen terrorist chief, to help slice away Abkhazia from Georgia. I guess it was a convenient alliance at the time, but why was this even necessary? What was Russia doing trying to break up a tiny state (Georgia) of no particular importance on its borders? This is why I don't trust Putin - his lust for the territory of the former Soviet Republics overrides all. The aftermath of Beslan is being used to expand Russia's territory rather than fight terrorists. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-09-13 10:54:46 AM |
| #23 well, frank, go study some history then.. |
| Posted by: lyot 2004-09-13 10:54:06 AM |
| #22 lyot ... You've GOT to be a Euro. I'm guessing Euro-Turk. But possibly Filipino. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2004-09-13 10:51:29 AM |
| #21 that sentence made absolutely no sense...try again? |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-09-13 10:47:28 AM |
| #20 at least the Russian had better shown a bit more 'nuance' when they used Basayev and his Abchazian batallion in the war against Georgia.. |
| Posted by: lyot 2004-09-13 10:45:49 AM |
| #19 Nuance can be the first step into self-doubt. |
| Posted by: jules 187 2004-09-13 10:39:39 AM |
| #18 I prefer the icepick. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-09-13 10:34:09 AM |
| #17 The body count in Chechenya is hardly trivial. Nuance is knowing *when* you have to use a sledgehammer and when you have to use a screwdriver instead. It doesn't mean one has to abandon use of the sledgehammer entirely. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-09-13 10:33:20 AM |
| #16 I will grant Putin filling a strategic gap. That is, while the US has been sorely oppressing the bad guys in most of the world, it has neglected a lot of troublemakers in the old "Soviet sphere", that need to be policed up. Having said that, I again hope that after Russia cleans up some of these messes, they go after the Mullahs and Imams who instigate this crapola. If you can cool the jets of hundreds or thousands by taking down a dozen Mahdi- and Sultan-wannabees in every country that has them, instead of trying to kill every damn inspired hothead you meet, you really do save a lot of time, effort and energy. Any damn fool can carry an RPG, but damn few can rally the troops. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2004-09-13 10:29:32 AM |
| #15 times change, patience wears thin. Nobody but the terrorists are really fighting yet. When you start to see the types of body count that you saw in past wars, then you know that the real fighting has begun. Right now we are just doing "police actions". Real war is about survival and knows no bounds. |
| Posted by: B 2004-09-13 10:22:37 AM |
| #14 Nuance is what gave Hitler the Sudetenland. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-09-13 10:11:50 AM |
| #13 nuance is that what finally leads to solutions, Or makes things worse. |
| Posted by: badanov 2004-09-13 10:02:55 AM |
| #12 talking about dumb generalisations, you seem to be quite good at it too..lol. |
| Posted by: lyot 2004-09-13 9:59:46 AM |
| #11 lyot - Prove it. That's about the dumbest generalization I've seen in months. You've GOT to be a Euro. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-09-13 9:03:47 AM |
| #10 nuance is that what finally leads to solutions, SPoD |
| Posted by: lyot 2004-09-13 8:53:48 AM |
| #9 Nuance? Whats that? LOL |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-13 8:01:57 AM |
| #8 Not much for nuance SPoD? |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-09-13 7:54:42 AM |
| #7 I don't give a damm what ACPC thinks. I also don't give a damm what PNAC thinks. I can think for my self. If there is one Arab in Chechnya thats to many. I also don't give a damm about any 400 year struggle. I do give a damm about islamo-facists and baby killers. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-13 3:35:34 AM |
| #6 YES RUSSIA HAS THE RIGHT! The American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC), which includes Pentagon supremo Richard Perle [SHOULD BE THE FIRST] The ACPC includes many leaders of the neo-conservative think-tank, Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which advocates American domination of the world. ACPC members who are also in the pro-Israeli PNAC include Elliott Abrams, head of Middle East affairs at the National Security Council; Elliot Cohen of the Pentagon's Defence Policy Board; Frank Gaffney, president of the conservative Centre for Security Policy; Robert Kagan and William Kristol of The Weekly Standard, the house journal of Washington neo-cons, and former CIA director James Woolsey. Former Reagan defence secretary Caspar Weinberger is also in the ACPC. ACPC executive director Glen Howard said the continuation of the "brutalising tactics" of Russian forces would only lead to "the resistance employing more brutal tactics" like the assault on School Number One in Beslan. He claimed one of the so-called "Black Widows" decided to become a suicide bomber after being forced to watch Russian troops "boil her three-year-old child alive". "This is a very brutal war," he said. "There have been knocks in the night, people have disappeared. It's an endless cycle of violence in which everyone has lost their sanity. It is not surprising the Chechens have resorted to the same level of violence." Howard said Putin comparing Osama bin Laden to the leaders of the Chechen resistance was "ridiculous". Moscow has put a $10 million bounty on the heads of two Chechen leaders ñ the extremist and al-Qaeda connected commander Shamil Basayev, and the more moderate, one-time democratically elected Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov. Basayev, according to the Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, directed the hostage-taking raid in Beslan. As a young Islamist extremist Basayev was trained in Jihadist tactics by fundamentalists in Afghanistan. Many Chechens have fought in Afghanistan and many fundamentalist Arabs have fought in Chechnya. The nurturing of Chechen fighters against Russia recalls America's support for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan ñ an act that went on to spawn al-Qaeda and the Taliban. "What would have happened if Bosnia had been ignored five years ago by the rest of the world in the way Chechnya has been ignored?" asked Howard. "They might have taken to taking over schools as well. "Everyone is ignoring the nationalist aspirations of the Chechens. This is not about terrorism but about ethnic nationalism." Howard said Russia was more "morally culpable" than Chechen fighters because of the atrocities its forces have committed. Howard said hardliners like Richard Perle were backing Chechnya as they "understood what it feels like to be under the Russian yolk". Some critics believe the support for the Chechens may be a cold war hangover or part of a policy to keep Russia weak through bloodletting in the Caucuses. "The al-Qaeda link [to the Chechen conflict] is overstated," said Howard. "Russia plays that up to show that it is part of the war on terror. There are some Arabs there but only a handful ñ this is a 400-year national struggle between the Russians and the Chechens." According to Howard, due to the vast energy resources in the Caucuses, the West, which is heavily dependent on foreign energy, has strategic interests in the area to which it cannot afford to turn a blind eye. |
| Posted by: Anonymous6415 2004-09-13 3:23:33 AM |
| #5 Fill the gorge with FAE vapor, and let the parents of those kids in Beslan fly over and drop in a zippo. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-09-13 1:50:03 AM |
| #4 The Panski gorge keeps turning up like a bad penny. Georgia has made no real effort of gaining control and forcing out the terrorist that are there. I wouldn't be supprised to find out George Sorros is funneling money into the gorge and Chechen territory beyond. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-13 1:45:48 AM |
| #3 Vlad needs to be counterwarned that the US will protect its troops and allies. Go ahead and attack your enemies; but do not endanger our people. |
| Posted by: badanov 2004-09-13 1:40:18 AM |
| #2 Russia has the right to carry out pre-emptive strikes on militant bases abroad Fine, go hit some bases in Saudi Arabia or Iran. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-09-13 1:00:00 AM |
| #1 Putin is such a cynical dirtbag. With him, all roads lead to territorial expansion. Instead of targeting Chechen exiles fund-raising in the Arab countries, he's going after Georgian territory. Typical. I bet if that doesn't do the trick, he'll go after the rest of Georgia. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-09-13 12:11:46 AM |