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| US F-15s Versus Indian Su-30s |
| 2004-10-06 |
| October 6, 2004: More details have come out about the "losing" performance of U.S. F-15Cs (from the Alaska-based 3rd Wing) against India's air force in the Cope India air-to-air combat exercise earlier this year. The Air Force and some members of Congress have used the "failure" to justify the need for new F/A-22 and F-35 fighters. Some are calling the results a demonstrated weakening of American air combat capabilities Two factors have been cited as major reasons why the 3rd Wing took a drubbing. None of the participating American aircraft had the latest long-range AESA radars, although some of the F-15Cs of the Wing had this equipment. A decision had been made beforehand not to send the AESA equipped planes to India due to the additional maintenance package required to support them. A total of six F-15Cs were sent to India, each equipped with a fighter data link, short-range AIM-9X heat-seeking air-to-air missiles, and the U.S.'s helmet-mounted cueing system. Secondly, at India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the full range of capabilities of simulated long-range radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles. U.S. fighters could not use the active on-board radar capability of the AMRAAM, and the missile was limited to around 32 kilometers range and required the use of the F-15C's onboard radar to target Indian aircraft. In standard use, AMRAAM has a range of over 100 kilometers and is a fire-and-forget missile that doesn't require additional guidance from the F-15. Practiced tactics by the F-15 crews mix two AESA-equipped F-15Cs with two stock aircraft. The AESA aircraft take long-range missile shots to thin out and disrupt the formation of a numerically superior force before the two sides close up for closer fighting. |
| Posted by:Mrs. Davis |
| #10 Thanks, PR |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-06 8:02:15 PM |
| #9 any links to good websites that focus on this topic would be appreciated. Lex, I don't know about serious US-Indian cooperation, but I know about a year or two ago a group of veteran Israeli pilots arrived in India to train the Indian pilots. FYI.. there will be future training with Israeli AWACS in 2005. Here are some links. India, Israel to hold joint air exercise in ’05 Indian Campaign Against Kashmiri Mujahideen Based On Assistance From Israel |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-10-06 5:06:34 PM |
| #8 Let's not forget that the Indians thoroughly understand that it's called the Indian Ocean for a reason. Should they want to throw their weight around, there is very little we could do to stop them. One of the Harpoon series computer games had a number of scenerios based upon a war with India, and Tom Clancy seems to feel it's possible, as well. |
| Posted by: Chuck Simmins 2004-10-06 2:43:54 PM |
| #7 I couldn't talk about prospects, just don't know. I think it's inevitable, but currently delayed for various reasons, including the need to secure Pakistan's nukes. As for DL, you'd need to research Israeli products. Without extensive, expensive retrofits, I don't know how you'd get any DL to work between Mirages, Fulcrum, Flanker, and Floggers, but they know how to use what they have as effectively as it can be used, and not according to Soviet doctrine. |
| Posted by: longtime lurker 2004-10-06 1:39:13 PM |
| #6 What are the prospects for real and serious US-Indian military cooperation in the next few years? I know the Pakistan angle is difficult but Bush/Armitage have done an excellent job positioning the US as an honest broker, and I assume Musharraf's regime can be managed or soothed. You mention India's increased capabilities, incl in the data management sphere. Is their military inter-operable with ours? Aren't the Indians already stepping up their cooperation with Israel? Also, any links to good websites that focus on this topic would be appreciated. thx, Lex |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-06 12:41:30 PM |
| #5 Yes, "on our side" is probably an overstatement. They certainly aren't our enemy, and probably not an adversary. They are an English-speaking democracy, and as such are pretty much natural allies. From a strategic POV, India is essential to controlling the IO and the Malacca Strait, and is a severely underrated buffer between the Arab/Persian muslim world and the Asian muslim world. And the more buffer between them, the better we all are. |
| Posted by: longtime lurker 2004-10-06 12:31:24 PM |
| #4 The good thing--they're on our side. Not entirely true as regards Iran (yet), but in general, they can and should be enormously helpful to us in the regions they adjoin. Apparently their navy is already pulling a lot of weight in combatting piracy across Asia; perhaps they can also step up their role in combatting rogue state and proxy WMD threats to slip dirty nukes into container ships. More than anything else tho we need to get the Indians off of their appease Iran kick. Perhaps a mix of very large economic and other carrots in order to build a united anti-Iran front with Israel and perhaps even Russia? |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-06 12:08:45 PM |
| #3 CS, I think you're missing the point. They weren't blind, although they weren't as armed as they'd like to be. Key phrases--"don't normally train," and "underestimated." The Indian AF is on its way to becoming a very powerful, Western, data-linked and aggressive AF. The Mirage is a match with our F-16, and the Su-30MKI is a very dangerous bird with a lot of Israeli upgrades. With waves of Flankers to one northern border and hair-trigger nukes to the other, they have to be good. India is a democracy, and is not doctrinally or socially hidebound like most of our opponents are. Soon they will be working off of steel decks, too. The good thing--they're on our side. One other consideration--what aircraft could the Indians be preparing to fight that has limited data link and radar range, no AWACS support, no active or semi-active radar missile? Sounds to me like the USAF agreed to simulate a regional threat, and whether or not it's apparent here, all sides benefited greatly. |
| Posted by: longtime lurker 2004-10-06 12:01:42 PM |
| #2 They also admit they underestimated the training and tactics of the Indian pilots. Indian air force planners never repeated failed tactics and were able to change tactics as opportunities became available, mixing things up and never providing the same tactical "look." High time we started to take seriously the notion of close cooperation, if not an outright alliance, with this talented and capable frontline democracy. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-10-06 11:54:07 AM |
| #1 I found it strange that they F-15C didn't best the 2nd rate junk flown by the IAF. Now I know. Sounds like the pilots were told to fly blind and naked but the opposition did not. This is a tactic that they use at begining Red/Green Flag exercises. First the enemy is weak and they become stronger as the exercise plays out. If we were playing the 'enemy' then it makes since they would 'hobble' our forces. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2004-10-06 11:42:32 AM |