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| Iraq |
| NBC Says Marine Shot Dead Wounded Iraqi Prisoner |
| 2004-11-15 |
| A television pool report by U.S. network NBC said on Monday that a U.S. Marine had shot dead an unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in Falluja. The Iraqi was one of five wounded prisoners left in the mosque after Marines had fought their way in on Friday and Saturday. There was no immediate comment from the Pentagon on the report. U.S. forces launched an offensive one week ago on Falluja, and have gained overall control of the formerly rebel-held city, although scattered resistance remains. The pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it and an adjacent building, killing 10 militants and wounding the five. Sites said the wounded had been left in the mosque for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. No reason was given why that had not happened. A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be already close to death, Sites said. He said one Marine noticed one of the prisoners was still breathing. A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's fucking faking he's dead. He faking he's fucking dead." "The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," Sites said. No images of the shooting were shown in the footage provided to Reuters. The report said the Marine, who had returned to duty after being shot in the face a day earlier, had been removed from the field and was being questioned by the U.S. military. Sites said the shot prisoner "did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way." |
| Posted by:Destro |
| #39 Why would one of the Marines exclaim, not once but twice, that this dude was faking? I think the Marines were briefed beforehand on exactly this type of scenario. In such a situation, and in these exact cicrumstances, what other action could be taken except to shoot the f%cking faker in the head? I could see it now: "This guy is faking!" "Ok, cordon off the area! Call the negotiators! Send in the robot! Bomb sniffing dogs!!" |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-11-16 12:05:06 AM |
| #38 Yet that, the police officer version as commonly understood by Jo Avg American with all its restraints thanks to TV and movies, is the one being subtly presented by the media thus far - implying automatic guilt. And Kevin Site's comments were the starting point and provided the cover. Yo, Kevin, this isn't NYPD Blue, jerkoff - you should apologize for your statements - erroneously based upon idiotic assumptions in a war zone. Apologize or be forever associated with the Rather SeeBS New Yellow Times genre of asshat MSMism. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-15 11:56:53 PM |
| #37 a good take - caught at LGF: If the Marine was right that the Iraqi was feigning death, or if he drew a reasonable inference of the same, then shooting the wounded man first and asking questions later might well have been the correct thing to do. War is not like police work where an officer has a duty not to kill unless he absolutely has to. A soldierâs duty is to kill every enemy he can who is not actively trying to surrender. Feigning death is not trying to surrender, and a fighter in such circumstances could very well inflict terrible damage. Some of the fighters in Fallujah have been strapped with suicide bomber belts. In this circumstance, any covert activity, like feigning death, would seem to call for instant death. Of course there may be more to the story. Maybe standing orders addressing such situations demand forbearance. Maybe both of the fighterâs hands were already blown off and surreptitious action was clearly impossible. NBC reports that the âprisonerâ (I have to put that in quotes) âdid not appear to be armed or threatening in any way,â but appearances can be deceiving. If the Marine detected deceit, then acting on the presumption that appearances ARE deceiving seems warranted. It is certainly not obvious that the Marine acted wrongly, never mind criminally. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-11-15 11:45:02 PM |
| #36 Somehow, I'm not quite as willing to give him a break when I read stuff like this at Kevin Sites blog: So in some ways, embedded in this unit, I begin to feel I've betrayed the people that depend on me to be skeptical; to question the dominant powers and institutions of my nation and the actions it undertakes in the name of its citizens. I am not a military or American cheerleader, not a mouthpiece signed on to some institutional agenda whether I believe in it or not. I am here to ask the hard questions of the people who make the hardest decisions; ones that result in people dying or people being killed. I must remember as one journalist advised, "write in your notepad every day 'I am not one of them.'" |
| Posted by: A Jackson 2004-11-15 11:42:41 PM |
| #35 Hey, we should give Kevin Sites a break on this. He seems to have reported what he saw. This guy has balls of brass and is hardly anti-military. In Afghanistan he saved some lives with his quick thinking. The SF guys said so in "The Hunt For Bin Laden." Also, his blog, www.kevinsites.com, is pretty good. I think there are numerous mitigating circumstances, but shouldn't we allow for the possibility that this kid did a bad thing? |
| Posted by: Tibor 2004-11-15 11:22:49 PM |
| #34 Where were the mass-media cries over the jihadists beheadings, burnings and scores of suicide bombers all directed at fellow Americans. We are in a war against terrorists. The liberal media would rather attack the U.S. armed forces then the enemy because they are ticked off over Kerry getting beaten by the American voters placing Bush back in the White House. This is whom we fight, Islamic terrorists.  Who is the leftist media fighting? |
| Posted by: Mark Espinola 2004-11-15 11:06:41 PM |
| #33 Why won't the news orgs embed themselves with the terrorists? They would get better quality footage by far. Oh and, give this Marine a medal. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-11-15 10:51:28 PM |
| #32 AC - Bitch Slap! Damn that's righteous! Of course, as a dumb knuckle-dragging red-stater, I didn't understand a word of it, heh. ;-) |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-15 10:44:36 PM |
| #31 Using the mosque for cover in the first place, as these unlawful combatants were clearly doing, is an unambiguous war crime. The Marine was serving summary judgment. Case closed. How depraved is the LLL? Well, their moral equivalency flying monkeys are all over this one. To even get close to moral equivalency, the Marines would have to have dragged this guy into the street, cut off his head with a rusty bayonet, and posted video of the proceedings on their unit website. To fully reach moral equivalency, however, they would have to torture him into identifying his completely innocent relatives, then behead the relatives and use the video in a recruiting ad. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2004-11-15 10:38:42 PM |
| #30 no uniform = killed dead and shot a couple more times. Grenade's ok - flamethrower preferred, but messy |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-11-15 10:32:52 PM |
| #29 ZF - EY wrote that, not me. I'm the guy who would've tossed grenades in before poking my head around the corner, heh. EY? You're up! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-15 10:28:41 PM |
| #28 .com: On the one hand, the description of the exact moments ("Heâs fucking faking heâs dead. He faking heâs fucking dead," followed by an immediate shot) aren't flattering when it comes to his self-discipline, IMO. Don't really see that. The guy's scared out of his mind that the guerrilla is going to trip his explosive belt using his elbow, his fingers, whatever - and has a split second to react. I'm surprised he acted so fast. I would have been frozen a little longer. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-11-15 10:05:07 PM |
| #27 My opinions are, as usual, mixed. BUT NOT FLIP-FLOPPING! >:D On the one hand, the description of the exact moments ("Heâs fucking faking heâs dead. He faking heâs fucking dead," followed by an immediate shot) aren't flattering when it comes to his self-discipline, IMO. On the other hand, hesitation already got a Marine killed when terrorists in Falluja disguised themselves as Iraqi National Guardsmen to ambush Marines, so it makes sense both subjectively and objectively. My verdict: An unfortunate incident, but acceptable. Make a note of it on his file, and put him back on the frontlines -- preferably in heavy combat where this won't be an issue and the reporters will be too busy pissing themselves to write such fluff. |
| Posted by: Edward Yee 2004-11-15 10:01:39 PM |
| #26 RJS - I heard a slightly different version... 5 deaders and 5 wounded were left in a moskkk the day before - the site was considered neutralized - and the wounded were, by obvious implication, left to die or whatever. Next day activity is noted at the moskkk (people seen moving around) and it's unclear whether there was any fire coming out. Then the Marines send another patrol to check it out. And the video picks up from there. Leading with a couple of grenades would've been my inclination - these guys are gutsier and more hardened than that - they do the face-to-face thingy without hesitation - as the video showed. If they had been more chicken, like me, there would be no issue. Having to pay for their bravery and direct approach sucks beyond belief. Hesitation often kills, and suicide / booby-trapped jihadis is common knowledge among the troops, so he did The Right Thing, in urban warfare ROE, I believe. I hope someone with big brass and big stones stands up for this man when he stands before the other man at JAG. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-15 9:53:35 PM |
| #25 The way I understand it one group of Marine stook the mosque and left five wounded. Another group was supposed to bring the wounded out so they could get medical attention. A third group arrived and saw the wounded guys, and from his comments didn't know they were previously captured and thought that at least one was faking being dead. The guy who did the shooting was wounded in the face a day before so he might be a little touchy if that was the trick used to blast him. My gut instinct from the report I read is that the guy will be cleared, and if the Arabs and Islamoids complain we can mention that the Marine failed to chop the man's head off while he was still alive so they should shut the hell up and let our internal judicial system deal with it. |
| Posted by: RJ Schwarz 2004-11-15 9:44:20 PM |
| #24 Dammit...the Marine should have rolled a grenade into the room before entering! THAT is his only crime! |
| Posted by: Justrand 2004-11-15 9:32:06 PM |
| #23 I would have shot him too. The big mistake was not shooting the camerman while they were at it. |
| Posted by: BillH 2004-11-15 9:04:13 PM |
| #22 Hey, the most important point is that it wasn't a prisoner yet! |
| Posted by: Asedwich 2004-11-15 8:54:02 PM |
| #21 Let me make this real personal. My Gos Son is a Marine. He is shipping out early next year. If he were in that room and faced with that situation, I would hope he would shoot first and check second. These prissy reporters don't seem to understand that this combat against a ravenous, immoral enemy. There are no rules! |
| Posted by: Doug De Bono 2004-11-15 8:35:56 PM |
| #20 Why do I have this aching desire to punch Mr. Sites of NBC? |
| Posted by: Mark Z. 2004-11-15 8:34:17 PM |
| #19 Well, at least the NYT can say they have seen a dead body in Fallujah now. |
| Posted by: Destro 2004-11-15 8:17:00 PM |
| #18 All right, it's time for this embedded crap to end. If the news outlets are going to just start shrieking at the first sign of anything that THEY think is unusual, then it's not worth the trouble of bringing them along. |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2004-11-15 8:04:51 PM |
| #17 methinks Mr. Sites better watch his six, the Marines won't be watching it for him |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-11-15 7:58:37 PM |
| #16 does anyone think the terrorist would have cared about killing the marine ? By the way, ain't that why they went there in the first place. I say give the man a medal. |
| Posted by: smokeysinse 2004-11-15 7:56:18 PM |
| #15 smn, Damn fine news. Thank God, Bush is President. |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-11-15 7:46:05 PM |
| #14 This is what I demand to hear..."...After further review, the board has determined that Marine- - has acted within the rules of engagement and in fear of his safety and life; and that of his fellow soldiers. No additional action is warranted, and Marine - - is hearby ordered to return to duty!!". |
| Posted by: smn 2004-11-15 7:43:41 PM |
| #13 I just got through watching Harddick with Chris "LLL" Mathews and he was |
| Posted by: Poison Reverse 2004-11-15 7:43:24 PM |
| #12 Sites said the shot prisoner "did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way." Did not appear... what the hell does that mean? Perhaps the terrorist had a gun or explosives under him where the Sites could not see? Did Sites ask the marine why? Did he (Sites) refuse to report it? Of course the MSM will be all over this jumping to conclusions with banner headlines for weeks and then bury what really happened on page c-47 lower lefthand corner small print... |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-11-15 7:26:35 PM |
| #11 Robert Crawford. I'm with you on the Geneva Convention.That's why the Corps. will court martial the juggie,fine him a dollar,and send him home.No kidding. |
| Posted by: crazyhorse 2004-11-15 7:24:01 PM |
| #10 My guess is that the guy had been up walking around, before the marines got there. Someone spotted the terrorist, and reported the mosque was reoccupied. When the Marines showed up, he played dead. Who knows how many lives were saved by shooting this scumbag. |
| Posted by: Destro 2004-11-15 7:21:49 PM |
| #9 Shit happens, that's war. If anyone had any idea on how many Jap/Nkorean/Chinese/VC/NVA pow's we whacked in our other respective wars the LLL's would do a circus flip and want to throw 80 yr old vet's into jail. I'm not saying it's right it just is what it is. War's a fucked up surreal experience. So Fuck the DU. Monday morning quarterbacking pussies. I'm so glad we didn't have the 24 hr MSM news cycle back in 1942, we'd of never made it to Iwo or Normandy. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-11-15 7:21:33 PM |
| #8 SOD: you're right but they won't STFU. They won't because they have no clue how bad they lost in the election. They're still convinced they matter. Fox gets it. They run the story and do it right. If they try for another Abu Ghraib with this one it'll only add to the perception that they're just shills. |
| Posted by: Rex Mundi 2004-11-15 7:18:06 PM |
| #7 Concern about suicide bombers. The Marines know about suicide bombers and a causualty they thought was dead started moving. Could have easily been a suicide bomber going for the explosives trigger. Also, in the same story, they showed the aftermath of one booby trapped body that killed 1 Marine and wounded 5. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-11-15 7:16:26 PM |
| #6 Excepting the question of what orders the Marines were operating under, I don't see what the issue is. It certainly wasn't a violation of the Geneva Conventions, since the conventions don't apply to the terrorists. The press should -- but of course won't -- let this alone so the military can deal with it. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-11-15 7:12:32 PM |
| #5 DU is all over this, as can be expected. Injured guy, shot in a freaking mosque. The backlash from this is going to be worse than the Abu Ghraib silliness. |
| Posted by: Snavirt Thruse6487 2004-11-15 7:09:33 PM |
| #4 OK, so what if he popped a terrorist? Anyone see the video of the beheadings or the bodies hanging from the bridge? Seems that wasn't "too graphic" for broadcast on Al Jiz. Of course this is jumping to the conclusion that the Marine shot him in cold blood and didn't feel threatened. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2004-11-15 7:03:56 PM |
| #3 FOX reported this. The gave much caveat to the as why he may have shot the guy. It's on Tape and will be dealt with by the military. The guy could have been wearing a explosive vest. been laying on a grenade. He was breathing and faking being dead. The military investigation will deal with it. The MSM needs to STFU. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-11-15 6:59:27 PM |
| #2 Destro - not Mike S? As for the article's assertions, heavy sigh. Joe Twinkie has no clue - and still won't after reading this. Batten down the hatches - here comes the broad brush of bullshit. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-15 6:58:13 PM |
| #1 Next thing you know the mainstream media will be comparing U.S. Marines to the Einzatzgruppen... Self-hatred can lead to nowhere but the grave for this great American nation... |
| Posted by: borgboy 2004-11-15 6:51:42 PM |