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Home Front: WoT
Bigger sins than offending
2005-07-25
By Rep. Tom Tancredo
By now, many people in America - and likely around the world - are familiar with my statements regarding a possible response to a nuclear attack on U.S. cities by fundamentalist Islamic terrorists.
Lileks did a critical column on the subject, and our Rantburg commenters have tended to be critical. I'm on Tom's side in the argument...
Without question, my comments have prompted strong reactions from many quarters, but they have also served to start a national dialogue about what options we have to deter al-Qaeda and other would-be Islamic terrorists. Many critics of my statements have characterized them as "offensive," and indeed they may have offended some.
... keeping in mind that there is a class of Professionally Easily Offended in this country, and worldwide for that matter. I think the offense taken by the normal people on the other side of the argument was that they passed by the first half of it, the part where he said that it would be in response to the use of nuclear weapons within the U.S.A...
But in this battle against fundamentalist Islam, I am hardly preoccupied with political correctness, or who may or may not be offended. Indeed, al-Qaeda cares little if the Western world is "offended" by televised images of hostages beheaded in Iraq, subway bombings in London, train attacks in Madrid, or Americans jumping to their death from the Twin Towers as they collapsed.
In fact, they consider it good advertising...
Few can argue that our current approach to this war has deterred fundamentalists from killing Westerners - nor has it prompted "moderate" Muslims and leaders of Muslim countries to do what is necessary to crack down on the extremists in their midst who perpetuate these grisly crimes.
Shiites in Pakland and Iraq have bumped off far more holy men than we have or our allies have...
That being the case, perhaps the civilized world must intensify its approach. Does that mean the United States should be re-targeting its entire missile arsenal on Mecca today? Does it mean we ought to be sending Stealth bombers on runs over Medina? Clearly not. But should we take any option or target off the table, regardless of the circumstances? Absolutely not, particularly if the mere discussion of an option or target may dissuade a fundamentalist Muslim extremist from strapping on a bomb-filled backpack, or if it might encourage "moderate" Muslims to do a better job cracking down on extremism in their ranks.
I consider the idea to be a latter-day adaptation of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). It was our policy with the Soviets that we wouldn't be the first to use nuclear weapons. At the same time, they knew their population centers were hostage if they used them. The result was an uneasy standoff that lasted 40 years, but kept World War III from going hot. There were similar caveats on the use of chemical and biological weapons; these, not just explosives, even big ones, are considered "weapons of mass destruction." The additional caveat was the the use of one type of WMD might, at the discretion of the president, be answered by the use of another type. In other words, gas on the battlefield might be answered by tactical nukes, plague in Dubuque might be answered by a very large boom over Novosibirsk. WMDs, and especially nuclear weapons, represent a red line that an enemy crosses only at his peril; he'd better be prepared to risk everything, because we've always been prepared to take everything. I see absolutely no reason that principle shouldn't apply to the Wonderful Wolrd of Jihad. The sooner and the more certainly they know it, the better, because if they don't believe it the chances are greater that they're going to goad each other into crossing that red line.
People have accused me of creating more terrorism by making these statements.
I just explained why it ain't so...
Indeed, we often hear that Western governments bring these attacks on themselves. Just days after the London subway attacks two weeks ago, for example, Tariq Ali, a prominent British Muslim activist, was quick to suggest that London residents "paid the price" for British support in the Iraq campaign.
If you stick a gun in my face and take my wallet because of what someone else did to you, it's still robbery. 52 dead in the name of a cause they may or may not have been interested in remains murder most foul...
A professor in Lebanon, Dr. George Hajjar, went even further, proclaiming, "I hope that every patriotic and Islamic Arab will participate in this war, and will shift the war not only to America, but to ... wherever America may be." Hajjar went on to say that "there are no innocent people," and referred to the victims of the attack as "collateral casualties."
They're not collateral by definition if they're targeted. But we're used to that sort of intellectual malnutrition from the Wonderful World of Jihad...
These are fairly "offensive" statements, to be sure, but the sentiments expressed by Ali and Hajjar are sadly commonplace in the "mainstream" Muslim world, where justification for terrorist attacks like the ones that rocked London, New York and Washington is never in short supply.
I've asked on a number of occasions, why do we have to please them? Why doesn't the obligation run both directions?
Fundamentalist Muslims have advocated the destruction of the West since long before the attacks of Sept. 11, long before the Madrid, London and Bali attacks, long before the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, long before the attack on the USS Cole and the 1993 WTC bombing.
That's another leftover from the Cold War, just like MAD. The Soviets left so many of these little presents lying around...
In many respects, the decision of "moderate" Muslims to acquiesce to these actions and even provide tacit justification for them is just as damaging to global safety and security as the attacks themselves. Until "mainstream" Islam can bring itself to stop rationalizing terrorist attacks and start repudiating and purging people like Ali and Hajjar from its ranks who do, this war will continue. As long as this war goes on, being "offended" should be the least of anyone's worries.
Posted by:Fred

#17  I meant Cato the Elder, not Cicero.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever)   2005-07-25 22:13  

#16  Ceterum censeo, Mecca delenda est.

Let's ask Cicero and Scipio how Rome fared after it destroyed Carthage.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever)   2005-07-25 22:03  

#15  I have been very clear on that. Destroying Mecca will not deter terrorists, it will create millions more.
Will it deter those who condone, finance or preach terror? Don't know. Targeting those people DIRECTLY souns like the better idea to me.
Declaring any imam a target, confiscating oilfields and everything they own sounds like a better way to make them move and reconsider.
Bombing Mecca has so many absolutly unknown risks that no politician should talk about it.
Even if it were an option.
Posted by: True German Ally   2005-07-25 22:01  

#14  Speak softly but carry a big stick. - Teddy Roosevelt

As far as I'm concerned, Rep. Tancredo is speaking softly. Is Islam listening, or do we need to show them the big stick?
Posted by: Neutron Tom   2005-07-25 21:50  

#13  It was our policy with the Soviets that we wouldn't be the first to use nuclear weapons.

That is incorrect. There was never such a posture. Matter of fact we lead the morons to believe we'd gladly trade New York for Warsaw. Skared the hell out of 'em. Chess players are usually piss poor at poker.
Posted by: Bobby Lee   2005-07-25 19:36  

#12  Did the US fully develop and deploy the neutron bomb? It seems that would give/have given us more viable nuclear options when dealing with a regional threat, as (if I recall correctly) the warhead did not generate as much fallout, meaning less danger to neighboring countries.

Or is any nuke basically a neutron bomb and the only variable is the elevation of the blast?

Of course, the political fallout for any nuke would be another matter altogether, but that's another topic. And, I expect, such warheads would not be very effective against hard targets (underground complexes).
Posted by: Dar   2005-07-25 14:32  

#11  The purpose of a nuke threat would not be to scare Moslem tyrants, nor to get them to "crack down" on their own fundamentalists, but to threaten all Moslems with major losses.

Only when the cost of waging war on the West is made clear will a majority of Moslems re-think their ideology of permanent jihad. Only then will they question the sanity of their imams. The change has to come from the ground up. Executing a few imams will not solve the problem of Islam.

Tancredo should be thanked as he is doing more for a future victory in WWIV than any other Congressman at the moment. No options off the table. Bush has correctly said it in various contexts -- and Tancredo has provided one concretization. We need more of this.
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever)   2005-07-25 12:27  

#10   It was our policy with the Soviets that we wouldn't be the first to use nuclear weapons.

This was a supposition we strongly led the liberals and Ruskies to believe, but my recollection is that it was never policy and that in fact no President ever categorically ruled out first use. To do so would have been a death sentence for all U. S. troops in Germany.

Tancredo is making an argument that perhaps should be surfaced, but it doesn't help him politically. We aren't going to bomb Mecca with conventional or nuclear weapons because it would serve no purpose other than to declare war on all Muslims.

Islam has its own problems, but not all Muslims are at war with us, nor do they want to be. At the present time, those who want to destroy western civilization (WC) are primarily Muslims, but not all Muslims. It is the ones who want to destroy WC that we need to destroy first. We can live at peace with the rest if they want to live at peace with us. And most do.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis   2005-07-25 11:19  

#9  TT: However, the threat of massive retaliation against Muslim rulers for terror attacks by Islamacists of any stripe just might cause a little crackdown here and there. It's the Pervs and the House of Saud and the Assads we should target with our threats -- and we should mean them.

The terrorists want us to take down the existing governments - so they can take over. What they're really after is Taliban-style governments built on the ruins of the existing regimes.
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2005-07-25 10:39  

#8  I doubt that the threat of wiping Mecca and Medina from the face of the earth would stop the fanatics, and it will definitely alienate the any moderate Muslims.

However, the threat of massive retaliation against Muslim rulers for terror attacks by Islamacists of any stripe just might cause a little crackdown here and there. It's the Pervs and the House of Saud and the Assads we should target with our threats -- and we should mean them.
Posted by: too true   2005-07-25 09:10  

#7  What truly needs to happen is for Muslims to see the West wreak a massively violent revenge on them for a WMD attack. One so costly that afterward, any fool in their community who even mentioned attacking the West would, out of sheer terror of the consequences, be literally ripped apart by his coreligionists with their bare hands.
The West can get along quite nicely with no Muslims at all within its confines; the world can do without Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: mac   2005-07-25 05:46  

#6  As I said earlier, Frank, anomalous power plants.

Fred, if they cared about Mecca, I doubt they'd be tearing it down the way they are...
Posted by: Phil Fraering   2005-07-25 03:14  

#5  grate coments fred an .com
Posted by: muck4doo   2005-07-25 01:48  

#4  I do agree that it needed to be said - to make sure the envelope includes all of the possibilities.

I've wondered about this some since it initially came out... Given the Muzzy propensity to go apeshit over any perceived slight, what will they make of this? It's clear there will definitely be two camps.

An intelligent rational human, one of those who gets the cause => effect thingy, will, indeed, consider the ramifications. That the professional Muzzy seethers can't be numbered among the rational, however, prolly means there will be much made of this. I have to say that I don't really care, though - they'd find something else if they didn't have this. The over-hyped qu'uran-flushing bullshit makes that clear. So it would be the same either way for the irrationals.

For the few who have the capacity, however, I believe his statement will evoke thought - after they get over themselves. Perhaps a few nearer the apex than the base will realize we are not such pushovers and are considering the long-term endpoint - their actual destruction - and grab a clue that it's time to put the brakes on, the show is about to be over.

They use everything available to keep their Islamonutz preoccupied with external issues - rather than ask why they live in shitholes and are ruled by thugs, dictators, Royals, and Mullahs. Paleostine has been their bread 'n butter for 60 yrs. They've mish-mashed that in with Afghanistan and Iraq (Zarqi's statements prove they're all interchangeable cogs of the hate machine) and gained some windage, but they'll see the writing's on the wall. They didn't get to the top of their pile of shit without being smarter than the average nutball.

Either the Afghanistan and Iraq experiments fail - and Islam steps on it one too many times, or they grab a clue and try civilization.

Tancredo's statement simply clarifies a bit more the starkness of that choice.

My $0.02.
Posted by: .com   2005-07-25 00:31  

#3  Prudent targeting with nothing taken off the table. I saw him interviewed and he isn't spining some political crap here. He is deadly serious. We are here (mostly) too.

Again, no target should be off the table and the leaders of all Islamic countries should be aware of our policies if attacked. That will assure that they take it seriously, if they have any doubts let them ask the Russians is they harbored any such fantasy's.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom   2005-07-25 00:21  

#2  the palace in Riyadh, for example? Qom? Tehran's MM enclave?
Posted by: Frank G   2005-07-25 00:10  

#1  I'm thinking, though, that for the time being, we need different targets than Mecca for any MAD strategy, at least as long as we're trying to keep the two mostly Moslem countries of Iraq and Afghanistan on our side. There are a lot of candidate targets that don't involve targeting civilians, IMHO. For starters, "anomalous" power plants (likely to be tied to bomb factories) and military bases.
Posted by: Phil Fraering   2005-07-25 00:06  

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