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Afghanistan/South Asia

Indian INSAS rifles malfunction during major engagement with Nepalese rebels

2005-08-13

KATHMANDU (Reuters) - The Nepali army said on Friday faulty Indian assault rifles were partly responsible for its heavy death toll in a gun battle with Maoist rebels as troops hunted for 75 soldiers still missing after the fighting.
Well, they're still better than the Enfield rifles that Nepal started the war with.

I recall the Marines of yore making the Enfield do its job just fine.

Forty-three soldiers and a civilian were killed when hundreds of rebels attacked an army base in the remote Kalikot district, 600 km (375 miles) from the capital, Kathmandu, late on Sunday. The Maoists, fighting to topple Nepal's monarchy and establish communist rule, say they captured 52 soldiers after the raid, a claim rejected by the army.
A rifle that won't shoot - can't defend yourself. Not surprised they snatched some hostages.
Army spokesman Brigadier-General Dipak Gurung said the Indian-manufactured INSAS rifles malfunctioned during the fighting which continued for about 10 hours. "Soldiers complained that the INSAS rifles did not function properly during the fighting which lasted for a long time," Gurung told a news conference when asked why the army death toll was high.

"May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned," he said. "There were stoppages during the firing ... the rifles got hot and soldiers had to wait for them to cool," another officer told Reuters.

Some light machine guns and a few mortars, and the Nepalese soldiers wouldn't be standing around waiting for their rifles to cool.

India is a key military supplier to the poorly equipped Nepali army. But New Delhi suspended arms supplies six months ago after the king's power grab to press the monarch to restore multi-party democracy and civil liberties.

Nepali troops have complained in the past about technical problems with the Indian designed and built INSAS or Indian Small Arms System assault rifle. Indian troops using the rifle are also known to have faced difficulties using it, Indian defence experts say. Indian defence officials declined to react to the Nepali comments.

Posted by:gromky

#15 (Another why-do-I-bother-with-15-minutes-left post):

Shades of Vietnam where reliable M-14s were replaced with screwed up M-16s that got a bunch of Marines killed.
Great information and comments, always learn stuff at Rantburg.

I had a friend who was a company commander there; he said that the preexisting problems with the M-16 were aggravated by changes to the propellant used in the cartridges and changes of the amount of propellant (which were meant to change the rate of cyclic fire of the gun). Which brings me to Sock's comment...

Yes, the Enfield is a good rifle, and well-maintained examples in private hands shoot well (as do L1A1). It occured to me that part of the problems the Nepalese might be having with both older and newer firearms might be aggravated if they're using stuff like surplus ammo with corrosive primers, which troops in the field may not be able to use without causing corrosion.

(I've always wondered, myself, how the Russians dealt with that in WW2... did they just not bother, or did every fire team have a little spray bottle of Windex or something? Or did they actually make non-corrosive ammo?)

Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-13 23:40

#14 Shades of Vietnam where reliable M-14s were replaced with screwed up M-16s that got a bunch of Marines killed.
Great information and comments, always learn stuff at Rantburg.

Posted by: Rifle308 2005-08-13 23:31

#13 I should add I can manually cycle it.

Posted by: Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-08-13 20:44

#12 If it's a L1A1 variant It's put together poorly and with poor materials. Mine L1A1 will even fire when it won't cycle (which is most of the time)_{_{I should have never got rid of the Israeli one I had.}}

Posted by: Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-08-13 20:43

#11 Phil,

No, the Ishapore SLR (Self Loading Rifle) is the Indian version of the FN FAL as once used by the British.

Posted by: buwaya 2005-08-13 20:20

#10 A real problem. They are overheating. I doubt they are firing full auto, quite simply they would run out of ammo in a ten hour engagement of pray and spray. I am thinking this is a design or manufacturing issue.

I have an "Indian" Enfield in 303 and A UK built Enfield Rechambered for 7.62 NATO as well as one in 303. The fit and finish on the indian firearm is fair, good enough for an infantry weapon. A group of well drilled infrantrymen with Enfields can duplicate the effects of an LMG.

Posted by: Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-08-13 20:19

#9 Well, a quick google revealed Wikipedia's entry on the Lee-Enfield; some interesting bits:

Ishapore-made .303 calibre SMLE Mk III* rifles have appeared with 1980's manufacture dates suggesting that it may still be manufactured in the Indian sub-continent. Attempts to contact the Ishapore Arsenal to confirm this have so far been unsuccessful.

It was at first thought that some of these may be a product of the small manufacturers in the Khyber Pass region of the Indian/Pakistani/Afghani border, but "Khyber Pass Copies", as they are known, tend to be copied exactly from a "Master" rifle, which may itself be a Khyber Pass Copy, markings and all- which is why it's not uncommon to see Khyber Pass rifles with the "N" in "Enfield" reversed, and the "VR" ("Victoria Regina") cypher from years well after her death.

It has been positied that the 1980s dated Ishapore SMLEs were made for the Mujahadeen during the Soviet invasion.

The Manufacturers Names found on SMLE Mk III/III* rifles are:

Enfield: Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, UK

BSA Co: Birmingham Small Arms Company, UK

LSA Co L: London Small Arms Company Ltd, UK

Lithgow: Lithgow Small Arms, Australia

GRI: Ishapore Arsenal, India (GRI stands for "George, Rex, Imperator")

RFI: Rifle Factory, Ishapore (Post-Partition)

SSA: Standard Small Arms, UK

NFA: National Firearms Assembly, UK

For the Rifle, Number 4 Mk I and Mk II:

ROF(M): Royal Ordnance Factory Maltby, UK

ROF(F): Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakarley, UK

Savage: Savage Arms, USA

Longbranch: Longbranch Arsenal, Canada

POF: Pakistani Ordnance Factory, Pakistan

Usage today

Lee Enfields are still used by reserve forces and police forces in many Commonwealth countries, particularly India and Canada, where they are the main rifle issued to the Canadian Rangers. Television news footage of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan revealed that many Afghan tribesmen were still armed with Lee-Enfields, the rifle being common in the Middle East. Bolt-action rifles remain effective weapons in a desert environment, where long-range accuracy is more important than volume of fire.

[...]

Photos from the current civil war in Nepal show that the Government troops are being issued SMLE MK III/III* rifles to fight the Maoist Rebels with. The SMLEs seen thus far are not in especially good condition, but it should also be noted that the Maoists are also armed with SMLEs (and anything else they can acquire), but as to whether the SMLEs in question are of British or Indian manufacture is unknown, as is the year of manufacture.

Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-13 17:18

#8 I take it the "7.62 mm Ishapore SLR" is their version of the Lee-Enfield?

Posted by: Phil Fraering 2005-08-13 17:04

#7 No assault rifle is designed to fire on full auto for any length of time.

Let go 100 rounds from an AK47* and you won't be able to carry the damn thing, it gets that hot.

*it was an AK knock-off, maybe the real mccoy is different

Posted by: Rafael 2005-08-13 15:38

#6 Do we have a few warehouses of WWII .30 carbines we can donate or sell cheap?

I'd much rather be an embarrased soldier than a dead one.

Posted by: Redneck Jim 2005-08-13 14:44

#5 The INSAS looks like an AK-47 variant (or deviant) chambered in .223 with a blowback action. Nothing special here, except that they don't always work. That's a real problem for a combat gun.

Posted by: Glart Sholing7898 2005-08-13 11:54

#4 Indian army problems with the INSAS were with high altitude operation. Overheating appears to be a problem with usage - inexperienced Nepali troopers firing on full auto.

SEPTEMBER 23, 2003
THE TIMES OF INDIA

The OFB is now working on an export version of
the rifle which is expected to be ready by the
end of the year.

Some improvements are being made to the
plastic fittings which were used to keep the
weapon light. Steel plates will be inserted to
reinforce the plastic. The appearance of the
weapon is also very important for the
international market. The overall appearance will
be improved. However, the costs will be
competitive, said general manager, Rifle
Factory, Ishapore, B.C. Biswas.

The INSAS rifle which replaced the trusty but
outdated 7.62 mm Ishapore SLR rifle the
primary weapon used by Indian infantryman till a
few years ago has been plagued by complaints
from soldiers, mainly from those posted in high
altitudes. A section of OFB officials confided
that India has a long way to go so far as
metallurgy for weapons were concerned. They also
pointed towards the need for more stringent
quality control of procurements from private
agencies. The OFB procures over Rs 500 crore
worth of stores from the private sector.

There were a few INSAS rifles which suffered
from cold arrest in Siachen. An enquiry
revealed that the unit using the rifles had been
recently posted to the region from the plains. In
the plains, soldiers use lubricating oil for the
barrels. In the colder climes, soldiers are
supposed to use a kerosene mixture. The unit was
not aware of this fact explained Biswas.

OFB officials from the repair and maintenance
wing, who travel to forward areas to repair
weapons, complained of misuse. In certain
areas, the temperature falls to 50 degrees below
freezing. Soldiers are so tired that they simply
throw down their weapons when they return to the
barracks. While on long mountain treks, soldiers
often throw weapons to paths 100 feet below, to
be collected when they get there. Unlike the SLR,
the INSAS is much more sensitive and can get
damaged by such treatment, they said.

According to officials, nearly 600,000 INSAS
rifles have been issued to infantrymen in the
Indian Army. Those under production are for issue
to Central and state police forces.

Most bulk demands have been met. There are
only a few units remaining who are yet to be
armed with the INSAS. However,we are lagging in
the number of weapons in the war reserve.
Whenever there is a war, a lot of rifles are
lost. There have to be adequate rifles in stock
to replenish them said Biswas.

Posted by: john 2005-08-13 10:37

#3 ZF - welllll at least a clip or two..

Posted by: Frank G 2005-08-13 10:28

#2 Article: "There were stoppages during the firing ... the rifles got hot and soldiers had to wait for them to cool," another officer told Reuters.

What are the odds that these were firing on full automatic? No assault rifle is designed to fire on full auto for any length of time.

Posted by: Zhang Fei 2005-08-13 09:51

#1 Well, they're still better than the Enfield rifles that Nepal started the war with.

I think I'd take my chances with the Lee Enfield.

Posted by: Bulldog 2005-08-13 08:00

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