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| Iraq | |
| Probe finds Marine unit killed civilians | |
| 2006-05-26 | |
| WASHINGTON - A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of Marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, said congressional, military and Pentagon officials on Thursday. Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual Marines' defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by U.S. ground forces in Iraq. Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between Marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has been started to find whether the events were deliberately covered up. Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of Marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said. This is not good.
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| Posted by:Chinter Flarong9283 |
| #36 This kind of shit happens when perps are "civilians" and operate and hide among them. We know these IED's (most) are remotely detonated. Means the assholes are lurking around within visual sight lines. That's probably why this squad went off. They knew these jerks were somewhere close by. When they ran up and saw those 5 guys in the car, they wasted them. Natural reaction. I guess things developed from there. Actions inside the house sound bad, because, as evidenced by the young girl, family members sat down on the floor and did not resist. |
| Posted by: SOP35/Rat 2006-05-26 23:09 |
| #35 It's a damn shame, and the facts speak for themselves. Presuming guilt, let justice prevail. On the cool and cozy domestic front, it's far too easy to point fingers and fault find. We lament the loss of innocent people, and take solace that in the end, justice will prevail. |
| Posted by: Captain America 2006-05-26 22:16 |
| #34 ima fownd kryslers kill sivilians |
| Posted by: muck4doo 2006-05-26 22:01 |
| #33 admit it now yallz!!!! jorge bush isn a pussy@!@@ |
| Posted by: muck4doo 2006-05-26 22:00 |
| #32 My grandfather said if this is true then part of the blame goes to Bush and the Govt. for having ROE that are making our fighting men police officers instead of soldiers. He said soldiers are not trained that way, when someone kills your men you go find them and kill them. Now this is just opinion he said, butWhat probably happen was when commanding officer lost his men he snapped, the commanding officer knew the thugs that set the IED was in Haditha and he was going to find them and the damn civies knew who they were and was not saying, so he commanded his men to kill a civilian until someone told him where the terrorist where hiding and then he went and killed them. My grandfather says in war that happens more often than you think. Now a disclaimer this is his opinion and the little reading he has done on it. |
| Posted by: djohn66 2006-05-26 21:55 |
| #31 //No, it's not, and we'll have to take the bitter medicine, in full measure and in public. Take it we must, so that the world understands that we do and will punish our own when they transgress.// letn us start wiff em enola gay croo! off wit theys hedz!!!! punish all thoz hoo kill inocense! |
| Posted by: muck4doo 2006-05-26 21:30 |
| #30 Thanks TIME magazine editorial staff and im-bredded "reporters"!! We can always count on you to get the Keep America Last Banshees howling for DOD blood. You creeps continue to suck. |
| Posted by: as 2006-05-26 21:03 |
| #29 You all have 'white guilt'. I say there is no crime here. Throughout history, warriors have killed while in the rage of war. Only if and when orders were given to kill unarmed persons do I consider it a crime. Here's a question; If an IED blew up a squad, then why in hell were there any civilians above ground in the vicinity ? Some kind of phalking death wish ? |
| Posted by: wxjames 2006-05-26 20:53 |
| #28 Wait for the FACTS - we are dealing wid enemies whom wilfully disguise themselves as ordinary, harmless civilians, and gener have no qualms shooting at US-Allied soldiers with or without real civilians in their cross-hairs. * KOREA 1, VIETNAM, DESERT STORM, SOMALIA. |
| Posted by: JosephMendiola 2006-05-26 20:33 |
| #27 is expected to find This phrase bothers me deeply, it's the same as saying "Our mind is made up, don't bother me with the facts" Or put another way, first the verdict,(GUILTY) then any evidence that does not conflict with our verdict will be heard. "Fair" trial my ass. |
| Posted by: Redneck Jim 2006-05-26 19:21 |
| #26 Define the word 'civilian', please. In context, please. Nuff said? |
| Posted by: Parabellum 2006-05-26 18:23 |
| #25 SPoD & BH6: I agree - the problem here is the leak. And We shoudl not jump to conclusions. However, that being said, *if* the tenor of the statement and the charges are true, then the UCMJ prescribed penalties should be applied at their very fullest, and the punishment should be administered very publicly where possible. |
| Posted by: Oldspook 2006-05-26 18:04 |
| #24 I put this up for one reason- There are a lot of troops who are trying to build up our credibility. Everytime they have tea with someone, or are nice to people, they are putting nickels and dimes in our 'credibility' piggy bank. When we start losing credibility, we do not lose it in nickels and dimes... we lose it in $100 bills. And this is NOT the fault of the press. It would happen via the local rumor mill- reported or not. This has to be taken care of. Because I support our troops, and want them to come out of this thing on top. (Even at the risk of a comma splice.) |
| Posted by: Chinter Flarong9283 2006-05-26 17:42 |
| #23 or shot for treason. |
| Posted by: anymouse 2006-05-26 17:38 |
| #22 Military Justice will deal with this, it's lawyered up enough. I just hope all the court marshals are fair. HRW and the NYT call it a war crime. I call HRW members and the NYT treasonous asd seditionist scum. Can we get a trial of them as easily as the military can and will try anyone suspected of violating the US military codes? I think the NYT and HRW can STFU. This investigation took place without their instigation or help. The military acted on it's own. That says the military is supieror to HRW or the NYT in any respect in this matter. Who ever is "leaking" this information out ought to get arrested, convicted and tossed on jail for a long, long, time. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2006-05-26 16:48 |
| #21 War is hell, war is ugly, bad things happen in War. To put impossible requirements on our military or expect the impossible like 130k humans will not have any bad apples or problem individuals within the ranks in some small number is a just setting yourself up for failure. Of course it happens humans are humans no exam or training can get perfect results in such numbers. What we need is leadership no apologies or blah blah slam the military with insane costly ROE’s we need leadership to get up in front of the people and tell em straight up its war sh*t happens. Yes, wrong was done but the difference between the Mongol hordes or our terrorist enemy and US is we don’t accept such behavior as OK we punish and stop it. But we shouldn’t expect that we are perfect super humans that have no bad apples amongst the masses of our ranks either and we definitely shouldn’t tie our hands and cripple our ability to attempt to do the impossible and become perfect. This failure of leadership to explain WAR will again result in the Media escapade of evil US evil military ohh the agony like Abu Grahib. Resulting in yet another unachievable expectation placed on our military, right there with expecting nill-0 casualties in WAR. The goal of these LLL actions is to make WAR impossible, we need leadership to explain bad things happen in war ITS WAR not some babbling apologist for regretting being a man and actually showing anger after 3k of his people just got killed for no freaking reason. This incident explained simply= Is it bad YES Can 130k humans be perfect NO Will those guilty be punished YES Will this happen in the future YES Will that be punished YES Will WAR ever be perfect NO Are we at WAR YES Can WAR ever be perfect HELL NO !!!! After this if your conclusion is we can never fight war again then go see “Tibetan History” ya may find it interestingly relevant. Otherwise suck it up and lets punish the guilty and get on with our WAR effort so we can quit worrying about such horrors. Were is a Churchil or Teddy Roosevelt when you need one what happened to the west and her people. |
| Posted by: C-Low 2006-05-26 16:19 |
| #20 I'm with you, BH6. There's just too many lies in the MSM and they want their My Lai story too much. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-05-26 16:15 |
| #19 Probe eh? Like a the hovering probe of death from star wars? |
| Posted by: ShepUK 2006-05-26 16:14 |
| #18 Please excuse typos and brain farts, eating lunch, fuming, and trying to type. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2006-05-26 16:00 |
| #17 Hey, let's let the UCMJ play this out before we start throwing around sentences. I'm withholding my judgment until a court martial is adjudicated. Anything before that is purely speculation based on the testimony of human rights watch, a 9 yr old Iraqi girl who only saw weapons being fired but no faces, & other local iraqis who never saw "a kill b", and unnamed sources, etc, in other words - means nothing until punitive legal action by a mil court is finished. If they are found guilty I am sure the mil will do the right thing to punish them - no more, no less. |
| Posted by: Broadhead6 2006-05-26 15:59 |
| #16 Not that the story isn't try but this writer shows up a few times on Times Watch. This is "a project of the Media Research Center, dedicated to documenting and exposing the liberal political agenda of the New York Times." Not to put too fine a point on this but the article really doesn't give us any more information than we had previously. What military or pentagon officials? Was there a press conference about this? I know that people get pumped in combat but I find it hard to believe that a whole squad went berserk on a town? The line up of who is carrying this story mind help you understand: NPR, BBC, Daily Kos, and NYT. If this was true I suspect that the Pentagon would have a HUGE news conference and not an un-named official. OK thatÂ’s my $1.25 and I am RTB. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2006-05-26 15:58 |
| #15 IF it is a MSM report, we can be sure that it is spun in the worst possible light. If it turns out to be true in some sense, we will have to take the punishment. It is amazing that we have not had units go Roman after the tactics used by the Lion of Islam. The people next to the IED's didn't know about them, you say? I doubt it. |
| Posted by: SR-71 2006-05-26 15:53 |
| #14 I'll wait |
| Posted by: Frank G 2006-05-26 15:33 |
| #13 Since three of the officers involved, including a Lt. Col., have been relieved, I would suggest that the entire original report and newsrelease from MNF Iraq be taken with a grain of salt. We will know what actually happened when the trials begin. |
| Posted by: Chuck Simmins 2006-05-26 15:26 |
| #12 This article looks like the one yesterday with no additional news. Congressional, military and Pentagon sources are unnamed sources and thus unrealiable. I'll wait until the investigation is complete before passing judgement. |
| Posted by: rjschwarz 2006-05-26 15:24 |
| #11 If i remember this incident, at the time it occured,the marine units involved had been hit whether by IEDs,or sniper fire from the village,or both and had lost four or more men in what I believe was a sudden unexpected attack.The instantaneous reaction attack by the marines did wipe out several homes and did result in civ casualties.I will be very surprised if this incident turns out to be a My Lai type,but it certainly sound s like over reaction,and failure to follow R O E, followed by a parseing of words.If verufied, some discipline should certainly follow, but I would hope that the circumstances and environment will be considered carefully and weighed against the crime.I am grateful I have never had to go thru the same experience,and I wonder how many of us would have reacted in a manner that was not excessive. reaction would not have been excessive |
| Posted by: john e morrissey 2006-05-26 15:03 |
| #10 Even of they are punished approprately (and they should be if approprate) the MSM is sure to publicize this for at least the next year or two. If they did do it in cold blood they should be executed by firing squad - and have it televised live. We have to show that we do *not* condone these type of acts and that we clean up our own house. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2006-05-26 14:47 |
| #9 Try them, and if found guilty, punish as appropriate. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2006-05-26 14:25 |
| #8 If they substantiate this, then life imprisonment woudl be the minimum - the death penalty would be appropriate if it can be shown they did it deliberately and in cold blood. The execution should be by firing squad, and should be held over there. Such a stain on the service cannot remain unpunished. I still pray that this isnt true. But if it is, we cannot hesitate to act decisively, but fairly. My biggest concern is "here comes My Lai" all over again, and the press will jump on this and bounce around liek a trampoline in an attempt to smear the entire military with the acts of a few. And that in itself will help raise hostility against our troops - and help the terrorist recruit even more. Its a shame the best weapon the terrorists have is our own press. |
| Posted by: Oldspook 2006-05-26 14:24 |
| #7 Number of military members who've face courts martial for actions within the immediate area of combat in this war? Number who faced similar charges in previous wars? Number of individuals prosecuted for treason, sedition or aiding and abiding the enemy during time of war? |
| Posted by: Clealing Gletle3270 2006-05-26 14:22 |
| #6 My opinion and my opinion only.... it would have never come to Marines in MOUT. The phueching entire, worthless kak town of Haditha would have suffered multiple B-52 strikes long before the Marines arrived. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2006-05-26 14:10 |
| #5 ``If the accounts as they have been alleged are true, the Haditha incident is likely the most serious war crime reported in Iraq since the beginning of the war,'' said John Sifton, of Human Rights Watch. ``Here we have two dozen civilians being killed - apparently intentionally. This isn't a gray area. This is a massacre.'' I, for one, would like to see Mr. Human Rights Watch dropped into a similar situation just to see how he'd handle it? But you probably don't see a lotta IED's at HRW fundraisers. |
| Posted by: tu3031 2006-05-26 14:03 |
| #4 My prayer as well Pan. Ditto Big Jim. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2006-05-26 13:58 |
| #3 Agreed B. It's hard to remain in perspective with your buddies remains splattered across your uniform. I certainly hope this is dealt with professionally and not turned into a political event for the left to bash Bush. Unfortunate things happen in war, but keeping this in perspective will be difficult at best. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-05-26 13:47 |
| #2 Nothing new here, just that nowdays you have a news crew filming over your shoulder. |
| Posted by: bigjim-ky 2006-05-26 13:42 |
| #1 Good men, good soldiers or Marines can rampage, ie., lose the mental bubble when pushed too far. Especially following the loss of colleagues. This is not uncommon in combat, especially when Rules of Engagement are buggered up. Acceptable, no. Uncommon, unfortunately not at all. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2006-05-26 13:39 |