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Britain
Liberal agonies
2006-08-16
"Why are the liberals always on the other side?" asks the fictional French military commander Colonel Mathieu when he is challenged, in The Battle for Algiers, for using torture to fight terror.
Because liberals are unwilling to face the consequences of having to fight for their freedom?
The film suggests that torture works as a tool of immediate necessity, even if the consequences are a blurring of morality and so final defeat.
The film suggests that torture + incompetence + murder leads to defeat. I don't condone torture at all. I condone losing my life to murderous barbarians even less.
Four decades on, Mathieu's charge against liberal scruples is still being raised, implicit in the defence of the means being used in a modern battle against Islamic terror.
Particularly when those scruples are wielded by 'progressives' who wouldn't have any problems torturing Dick Cheney. Let's be clear, the progressives today aren't unhappy that torture is being used, they're unhappy because the 'wrong' people are being tortured.
Old conventions and legal obligations are being portrayed as obstacles to victory in a conflict, it is said, whose scope and severity are being recklessly misunderstood. Without supporting torture, the prime minister crystalised this thinking when he asserted last year that"the rules of the game have changed". John Reid's urgent demeanour has done it again in the past week.
Mark Bowden, writing in the Atlantic, give the topic the gravity it deserves ('The Dark Art of Interrogation'):

The Bush Administration has adopted exactly the right posture on the matter. Candor and consistency are not always public virtues. Torture is a crime against humanity, but coercion is an issue that is rightly handled with a wink, or even a touch of hypocrisy; it should be banned but also quietly practiced. Those who protest coercive methods will exaggerate their horrors, which is good: it generates a useful climate of fear. It is wise of the President to reiterate U.S. support for international agreements banning torture, and it is wise for American interrogators to employ whatever coercive methods work. It is also smart not to discuss the matter with anyone.
Counter-terrorism and justice do not always march in step and nor is the easy response, that justice must always come first, enough of an answer. The dilemmas are more acute. The arrest of 24 suspects in connection with an alleged plot to destroy airliners over the Atlantic may have been a triumph of intelligence and policing that saved many lives. No government could be criticised for acting when it did, on the information it claims to have had. Nor have legal safeguards been broken here. Yet safeguards in other countries are less rigorous. At what point do actions abroad pollute British justice, even if in the short-term they may protect British security?
As Mr. Bowden says, if the perps in Pakistan were made cold, uncomfortable and alone, that's fine -- wink wink, nod nod, and nice job. If they had their fingernails pulled out then the interrogators have to be punished.
Reports from Pakistan suggest that much of the intelligence that led to the raids came from that country and that some of it may have been obtained in ways entirely unacceptable here. In particular Rashid Rauf, a British citizen said to be a prime source of information leading to last week's arrests, has been held without access to full consular or legal assistance.
Wink. Wink. Nod. Nod. It isn't hard.
Disturbing reports in Pakistani papers that he had "broken" under interrogation have been echoed by local human rights bodies. The Guardian has quoted one, Asma Jehangir, of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, who has no doubt about the meaning of broken. "I don't deduce, I know - torture," she said. "There is simply no doubt about that, no doubt at all."
One person's 'opinion' being elevated to fact.
If this is shown to be the case, the prospect of securing convictions in this country on his evidence will be complicated. In 2004 the Court of Appeal ruled - feebly - that evidence obtained using torture would be admissable as long as Britain had not "procured or connived" at it. The law lords rightly dismissed this in December last year, though they disagreed about whether the bar should be the simple "risk" or "probability" of torture.
The law lords may well need a second dollop of the hand lotion.
But none of this stops governments acquiescing in torture to acquire information, rather than secure convictions, as British as well as American practice has shown. It has been outsourced to less squeamish countries and denied through redefinition: but it is still torture and still illegal. The former British ambassador to Uzbekistan has provided disturbing evidence of the uneasy boundary between benefiting from torture and encouraging it; so did the Council of Europe's report on rendition in June.
The British didn't send Rashid Rauf to Pakistan to be 'questioned'. He flew there himself, so the rendition argument doesn't fly.
The defence, to the extent that anything other than evasion has been offered, is no better than the one provided by Colonel Mathieu in Algiers: it works. But does it? Torture and other illegality can offer authorities a short-term seduction, perhaps even temporary successes. Information provided by torture may have helped foil the alleged airliners plot.
Which is why a reasonable, intelligent people interested in preserving the lives of their citizens find coercion -- the 'other illegality' -- distasteful but occasionally necessary.
But evidence provided uder torture is often unreliable, sometimes disastrously so - and its use always pollutes the broader credentials of torturers and their allies.
Which is why, perhaps, the perps need not be brought to trial.
This battle must be won within the law. Anything else is not just a form of defeat but will in the end fuel the flames of the terror it aims to overcome.
You can't convict them because you can't or won't use the evidence at hand. Even if you convict them you'll not sentence them to a term longer than (at most) ten years. Or you'll release them when the Lions of Islam™ snatch a citizen of yours. Hezbollah and Hamas have been counting on exactly this by capturing Israeli soldiers. Don't think for a moment al-Qaeda wouldn't stoop to grabbing a British citizen if they thought it would get their people released.

So you have some hard decisions to make. You can try them. You can change your law and use tribunals. You can learn to wink. Or you can wring your hands and allow terrorism to ruin your country, whether all at once or corrosively over time.

I'll make one suggestion: if you can't try them and won't keep them, just release them. In the wild. Somewhere quiet. Out of the way. And let us know when and where.
Posted by:Steve White

#11  Already too late for me.
Posted by: Amos   2006-08-16 18:34  

#10  Hope you're wrong LH.
Posted by: Joe   2006-08-16 18:33  

#9  should be bowden
Posted by: liberalhawk   2006-08-16 15:49  

#8  i can buy the Mark Biden approach. Of course that was NOT the admin approach until Sen McCain forced it on them, to loud wailing and gnashing of teeth, here, among other places.
Posted by: liberalhawk   2006-08-16 15:49  

#7  Personally I don't care if the US uses torture or not. If it works and it doesn't affect the psych of the torturers too much I can live with it. If it doesn't work as we hope I can live without it.

I want the bad guys to be 100% confident that we'll use the worse thing they can think of against them if we get ahold of them. I want fevered nightmares, paranoia, and insomnia amung our enemies..
Posted by: rjschwarz   2006-08-16 12:59  

#6  Btw, the "Battle for algiers" is a great movie. Aside for the fact it is pro-fln propaganda piece made after the war by french and italian communists with the help of the algerian gvt to show how heroic were the fln "soldiers" (the murderous pimp ali la pointe tasked by the fln to rein in the underworld is depicted as a saint choosing to die for the Cause), and how "native liberation struggle" they were (the secret muslim marriage).
Still, the movie doesn't completly hide the terrorist methods employed there (the corpse dropped from the car, which turns around the block to sweep the flocking bystanders with smg fire), it just sublime them.
Posted by: anonymous5089   2006-08-16 11:42  

#5  The film suggests that torture + incompetence + murder leads to defeat.

IIUC, the battle of Algiers saw the fln rooted out; it was a very successful counter-insurgency work which basically set the standards for such operations.
Posted by: anonymous5089   2006-08-16 11:37  

#4  A small note about the movie "The battle for Algiers" it was made by a communist in the great tradition from the French Colmmunist Party of ever backatabbing the French Army (even in 1940, it sabotaged French weapon productions to help its Nazi allies). In it you will learn about Henri Allegre being tortured (reality: he called a lieutenant a "fascist" and was slapped) or about the French Army using torture but not about the dilemma it faced: either torture this terroristb (I insist terrorist not suspect) or have his friends bomb a bus school ie the film does not say a word about the atrocities of the FLN and how torture was seen to be the only way toprevent them.

Oh and BTW: Givebn that I was born in Algiers and that even as a toddler I was a legitimate target according to FLN (cf the horrioble masscre at Philippeville or the many massacres of Algerian villages) don't expect of me that I condemn use of torture on proven terrorists.
Posted by: JFM   2006-08-16 11:21  

#3  ...Safe, legal and rare
Posted by: Capsu 78   2006-08-16 09:33  

#2  Because liberals are unwilling to face the consequences of having to fight for their freedom?

Not always true. Saint Franklin Roosevelt, of the secular church of liberalism, had no problem fighting whether it was ordering 'aggressive' response to German U-Boats in international waters or launching an unprovoked surprise attack upon the French territories of North Africa, even though we were at peace with the French and there was no Congressional authorization to take us into such a war.
Posted by: Hupoth Throling8981   2006-08-16 09:27  

#1  The Hittites were of the same perverse logic. It was not who they were, it was how they thought and how corrupt their thought was,

Amazing the press is siding with those with no press. Maybe that is the arrogance Muslim speaks against. Maybe Muslim wants to be proven wrong? Already has. nevermind. just thinking to myself. Sorry.
Posted by: newc   2006-08-16 02:44  

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