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| 2006-10-05 |
| Forgiveness, not anger, after Amish school massacre NICKEL MINES, Penn. (Reuters) - This Amish town showed more forgiveness than anger on Tuesday, a day after a 32-year-old dairy truck driver stormed a one-room school and tried to execute all the girls, killing five. imagine what fallout there would be if this had been a muslim school The third deadly U.S. school shooting in a week shattered the calm of an Amish farm community where there is little crime and where the sight of horse-drawn buggies, bearded men in straw hats and suspenders, and women in bonnets conjures up a bygone age. The Amish, descendants of Swiss-German settlers, are a traditionalist Christian denomination who place particular importance on the Gospel message of forgiveness. They believe in non-violence, simple living and little contact with the modern world. Several Amish interviewed by Reuters said they were sad but not angry and emphasized the need for forgiveness of gunman Charles Carl Roberts, who as a non-Amish person was what the locals refer to as "English." "It's just not the way we think. There is no sense in getting angry," said Henry Fisher, 62, a retired farmer with five grown children and 33 grandchildren who has lived all his life in the town some 60 miles (100 km) west of Philadelphia. He said the Amish lifestyle with no cars, television or credit cards, was "a more peaceful life ... to keep the next generation living a more humble life." He also said he did not expect additional security such as locks on schools because this was a "freak accident." There is no police station in town and there were no signs of new security in the rural area on Tuesday. "This community is trusting. They don't expect somebody to just come in the doors and start shooting," said Fran Beiler, 66, of Nickel Mines. Three miles (5 km) away, the one-room Green Tree Parochial School in Bart Township resembled the Nickel Mines school before the shooting. Run by the Amish, it has 24 schoolchildren aged 6 to 13 who were playing in the school yard on Tuesday morning. "We want to forgive," he said. "That's the way we were brought up -- turn good for evil." One parent who declined to be named said the school board on which he sits decided against closing on Tuesday. The parent, who has three of his eight children at the school, said one of his daughters dreamed last night that Monday's attack had taken place at her own school. He said he discussed the attack with his own children and that they were nervous but had walked to school on their own as usual today. A 25-year-old Amish man who declined to be named said his 13-year-old niece died in Monday's shooting and that another niece, 11, was recovering in a Philadelphia hospital. "I think it was going to happen. God has his hand in it," the man said with resignation. |
| Posted by:PlanetDan |
| #19 Frank, your son volunteered. That makes you part of it, too. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2006-10-05 19:41 |
| #18 His memory is a blessing for us all, Bodyguard. He and his family, and all who work to keep us free, have our gratitude. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2006-10-05 19:39 |
| #17 this whole act makes me so sad - I feel like I lost one of my own. Damn |
| Posted by: Frank G 2006-10-05 19:32 |
| #16 I'll see him on Fiddler's Green when I get there one day. Rest Easy specialist. (19D, 2ACR back when it had Bradleys the first time in the sandbox) |
| Posted by: Oldspook 2006-10-05 18:43 |
| #15 Thank you for your service, Spc. Mathurin. Rest in peace. |
| Posted by: anon 2006-10-05 16:32 |
| #14 We just buried a good chum (and fellow Cav. Man) up in Kansas City not too long ago. The mother of the fallen didn't put out an obituary until after the funeral cuz' she didn't want those lunatics at the cemetary. God will deal with them when the time comes, and they alone will have to answer for what they have done. God Bless you Specialist Mathurin, the Cavalrymen of Echo Troop and the whole 2-17 CAV miss you Brother. "OUT FRONT!" V/R Bodyguard |
| Posted by: Bodyguard 2006-10-05 15:31 |
| #13 "re: Christians and punishment. It often seems a bit contradictory that they support punishment for crimes." To the uninformed, perhaps. But the concept of differences between governmental roles and individual roles runs througout the scripture. Look at Prov. 25:2, for example: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Simply put, God forgives sin. Governments should punish it. As to forgiveness, I'll give you what I think is the Biblical take. It's precisely when the offender 'has not ceased offending', and the offended forgives anyway, that he/she has exercised true Biblical forgiveness. It's precisely when the forgiveness has not been 'earned', but the offended forgives anyway, that he/she has exercised true Biblical forgiveness. Why? How does God forgive? Does he forgive only when we have ceased offending? NO. We can never cease offending. It's our nature. Does he forgive only when the offender has 'earned' forgiveness? NO AGAIN. We can't earn it at all. Instead, he extends his grace. By definition, grace is unmerited. I'm not saying I could have forgiven as easily as these Amish have. Recognizing my own weaknesses and limitations, I could only hope to aspire to such a faith. But I am saying they seem to have a pretty good understanding, and are practicing Biblical forgiveness. |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2006-10-05 15:25 |
| #12 Personally, I considered them out of the ballpark at the soldiers' funerals too. |
| Posted by: BA 2006-10-05 15:16 |
| #11 A poster referencing Fox News with an army.mil e-mail addy? Jeebus wait til the freaks at koz get a load of that one, lol! And Bodyguard, we 'round here, absolutely loathe Fred Phelps and crew. They were completely out of bounds (but "within the ballpark," maybe) with their protesting of soldiers' funerals. But, at the freakin' victims of the Amish Schoolhouse shootout funerals? He's WAAAAYYY off his rocker there, methinks. |
| Posted by: BA 2006-10-05 15:15 |
| #10 Hi Guys! Did you catch the crap that the westburo baptist church (notice the lack of capitolization) was spewing on this whole affair? Hell, even Alan Colmes got spun up about it! Check out the link on Fox News... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217975,00.html V/R Bodyguard |
| Posted by: Bodyguard 2006-10-05 14:25 |
| #9 Thanks. I want to add just one more point re: Christians and punishment. It often seems a bit contradictory that they support punishment for crimes. Like all good concepts, the devil is in the details and if you ask 100 Christians, chances are you will get 100 different opinions on this; these are just my own. If one is interested in understanding that contradiction of Christian forgiveness v/s their willingness to mete out punishment it is because we live in this world - and aspire to a better one. Thus we render unto Caesar in this world, ie: submit to the laws and rules. A simple way of making my point would be to say, if you do the crime, you do the time. Thus, we make laws and adhere to them. While that could open a discussion in and of itself, (what if the laws are bad, etc) I can only say that no one here on earth has the all the answers and life is complicated. But we do the best we can to balance the laws of God and the laws of man. It's a bit like free speech or democracy. If you ask 100 different people, you will get 100 different ideas on what it means, but the underlying principles are what those who believe in it strive for. |
| Posted by: anon 2006-10-05 13:17 |
| #8 Ah. Different use of the language. I understand now -- thank you, anon. :-) |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2006-10-05 12:59 |
| #7 However, I personally think that however noble, it is unwise to forgive before the offender ceases offending TW - re: Christian forgiveness, while I can't speak for the Amish, to most Christians, forgiveness and letting a killer go free are not one in the same. It isn't just letting go of the anger, either. It's more about understanding that we are all sinners and being willing to forgive another for their sins since none of us are perfect. The way I see it is kind of like this: A town drunk drives drunk and kills some people. You don't hate him for it, but you do take action to assure he doesn't do it again - take away his license, etc. The idea is that you are not punishing for the sake of punishment itself, but doing what needs to be done for the safety of all concerned. The key to me is that you aren't punishing for the sake of punishment itself. You also touched on the point that holding the anger is not healthy - that is true, but forgiveness goes a step beyond that. "There but for the grace of God go I", is the phrase that best captures it, IMHO. |
| Posted by: anon 2006-10-05 12:47 |
| #6 Yes, TW, except in this case there's no one left to either apologize (a REAL apology, not the made for TV ones) or to EARN that forgiveness. He's dead and gone too. |
| Posted by: BA 2006-10-05 12:05 |
| #5 I shouldn't mind that when the time comes, except for the open coffin. Thank you for explaining, GORT. However, I personally think that however noble, it is unwise to forgive before the offender ceases offending... and works to repair the damage he has done. I don't mean that I need to carry anger against him -- I can't waste my energy on that -- but to go the step beyond to forgiveness must be earnt. Anything less is the farmer's apology to the pigs just before he sends them off to the slaughterhouse. What matters it then if the pigs forgive him for it? |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2006-10-05 11:48 |
| #4 I look at the witness that these people are giving to the world of how 'our faith in Christ' is lived and practiced and I can not say enough how much I respect these people. Blackvenom-2001 |
| Posted by: Blackvenom-2001 2006-10-05 10:55 |
| #3 Thanks, GORT; by the way, this reminds me of the wakes one could read about in 19th writer like Zola, interesting how this IMHO saner and less sanitized relationship with death has been retained. |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2006-10-05 10:32 |
| #2 I left this lifestyle 40 years ago but with Fred's grace I'd like to clue the RBers in on how the funeral for these innocents will be done. Every Amish community is different but almost all Amish funeral practices are the same. A funeral director will be hired but will participate in the most minimal fashion. He will embalm the body and secure whatever permits are necessary. After embalming, the girls will be returned to the home. A plain coffin will be prepared and the deceased placed into it. The girls will be dressed in a plain white dress that their mother or aunt made for them. The furniture will be removed from one of the bedrooms or other room on the first floor of the home. The coffin will be placed in there. The body will be viewed by friends and family as they arrive. Immediate family will receive visitors in the front room of the house. There will be no flowers in the house and there are never any photographs. (Considered to be graven images). The tone in the home is not a celebration of life but rather the realization of God's promise of heavenly reward and the fact that we do not (and can not) understand God's ways. Aunts and community members will prepare all the food for all visitors, many of which have traveled hundreds of miles. Travelers will have hired drivers to drive them from communities far distant. The men of the community will take over all farm or business chores for the next few days or longer if needed. After the viewing, a simple service will be conducted by the Bishop. A white handkerchief will cover the face of the girl until the end of the service. The bishop will remove the handkerchief after the service is concluded. Pallbearers will remove the coffin to a larger than normal buggy for transport to the cemetery. At the cemetery, there is one last viewing before the coffin is lower into the ground. The grave was hand dug previously. When I was a child one of the elders would nail the lid of the coffin shut - I pray that is no longer done as there is no worse sound. There are no eulogies - respect for the girls is show but not praised. The would be a sign of individual pride which is to be avoided at all costs. There is no singing - a hymn may possibly be spoken. All will be in the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect. The grave marker will be a simple stone will just the name and dates of birth and death. Since we all are the same in the eyes of the Lord, there are never any ostentatious stones. Amish tradition requires that the female relatives wear black dresses in public for mourning. Mourning is one year for each parent, spouse, and sib, six months of mourning for a grandparent or grandchild, three months for an aunt or uncle and six weeks for a cousin. The family will console themselves with the principle "The Lord giveth; the Lord taketh away". It is the sum of their being. |
| Posted by: GORT 2006-10-05 09:57 |
| #1 Nice to see how christians, even non-mainstream ones, behave when they follow their faith. |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2006-10-05 09:03 |