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Syria-Lebanon-Iran
France ‘was seconds’ from downing Israeli jet
2007-04-17
France and Israel are on a collision course in south Lebanon following incidents involving Israeli warplanes over- flying the positions of the French military contingent serving with the UN peacekeeping force there.

In the most serious confrontation, French troops were said by sources in Paris to have been "just two seconds" from launching an anti- aircraft missile at two Israeli F-15 fighters carrying out mock low-level attack runs over one outpost.
Wonder if the F-15s then would have been authorized to clobber the AA site?
As this was happening, a pair of Israeli reconnaissance aircraft circled over the headquarters of the French battalion in the Jabal Maroun area, possibly taking aerial photographs there.

Even before these incidents occurred, French diplomatic sources had let it be known that President Jacques Chirac was urging Israel through diplomatic channels to halt their regular incursions into Lebanese air space.

The French officer in command of the 11,500-strong UN contingent, Major General Alain Pellegrini, made it clear that he considered these incursions violated the UN Security Council resolution that brought an end to last summerÂ’s brief but bloody war between Israel and Hezbollah. If diplomatic efforts should prove inadequate to resolve this issue, Pellegrini added, "maybe other means would have to be considered." In private, French officials contend that the over-flights are designed to provoke Hezbollah into renewing its attacks on Israeli targets, opening the way for massive retaliation.
They've never heard of aerial recon. Must not have. No one in Y'urp ever does such a thing. Ucky.
In response, Israeli sources accuse the French contingent of turning a blind eye to Hezbollah's stealthy rearmament in breach of the UN resolution and doing little to prevent the guerrillas from reoccupying positions close to the border.
The French aren't turning an eye, they're walking hand-in-hand with the Hezbies. They dislike the Israelis and would like nothing better than to see the Hezbies whack Israel again.
The recent announcement that Pellegrini will be replaced in overall command next month by an Italian general elicited a resounding "good riddance" from the Israeli high command, with one senior officer asserting that he had "turned pro-Hezbollah".
Turned? He's always been anti-Israel.
Posted by:Steve White

#41  Thanks, everyone -- Rantburg U rulez! Actually, I'd be willing to believe that a5089 is right that this is not much more than posturing by Chiraq and his idiots in Paris. I seem to recall a similar tale about supposedly almost shooting down overflying Israeli jets shortly after the French unit arrived last summer/fall.
Posted by: trailing wife   2007-04-17 21:53  

#40  Israeli Jet "was seconds" From Taking Out French Radar Site.B>

There...fixed it for you.
Posted by: OyVey1   2007-04-17 20:55  

#39  They got jealous of the barbecue and left.
Posted by: Jackal   2007-04-17 20:06  

#38  Well, double-crap! Where'd my cookies go?

#37 was me.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2007-04-17 19:57  

#37  Mmmmmm - Barbeque. :-D
Posted by: Elmiger Sinatra5732   2007-04-17 19:52  

#36  TW,
As added flavor, I understand that the decoy drone was set up to give the radar signature of an F-15 so the Syrians would use their "real" freguencies. (These info gathering games were played thoughout the Cold War, so militaries developed the habit of using "peacetime" to hide what they'd use when the shooting starts).

Once the Israelis had the info, they proceeded to BBQ the Syrian air defences.

Al
Posted by: Frozen Al   2007-04-17 19:00  

#35  the French must stop any resistance to the rearming of hezbos, which is the UN Plan for Lebanon, that and resuming ethnic cleansing begun in '73.
Posted by: Galloways Outcropping   2007-04-17 18:41  

#34  Much of the Syrian AA network was destroyed by IDF Artillery from informatino gathered as described by Zen.
Posted by: Shipman   2007-04-17 17:28  

#33  Frenchbollah...what will they do when the conflict in Lebanon flares up this summer...will they run like they have done throughout history?
Posted by: Unolump Smith8555   2007-04-17 17:10  

#32  What happened in '82

As to the 1982 Bekaa Valley incident, it was an early use of UAV or drone technology that allowed the Iraelis to triumph. A monitoring drone was flown up the valley in advance. This triggered all of the anti-aircraft guidance radars to light up and illuminate the drone. Using telemetry, the radio frequencies and locations were transmitted back to waiting ground crews who then programmed these settings into both source guided weapons and on-board jamming countermeasures for the Israeli aircraft. As the IDF planes entered the Bekaa all of the installations were preprogrammed for disruption and targeting. The Israeli victory was overwhelming.
Posted by: Zenster   2007-04-17 16:59  

#31  too bad they didn't just blow the french too hell then we wouldn't have too discuss it. something more interesting in other words
Posted by: sinse   2007-04-17 16:39  

#30  This makes no sense, but we are talking French here.
Why would the French fire a missle at an Israeli fighter, or even threaten too ? Either France is in league with Hezbollah, or France is looking for a fight it can't win. If the latter, then it makes no sense, but if the former, then we need to reestablish the peace-keeping force, which consists of all Islamic armies and the French.
If all the UN peace-keepers are anti-Israel, then they had better dig deeper bunkers, and have a going away party for the French.
The price of this 'ceasefire' is coming due.
Posted by: wxjames   2007-04-17 16:09  

#29  Frecnh behavior certainly didn't happen at all; the last time this was reported by french authority, neither the UN record, neither Israel could comment on the supposed incident, because there was no record of it (source from memory being the Mena Press website, whom I generally find trustful in their reporting).

So, this is Israel getting intel aboput what's going on and possibly rattling the cage, french military probably not being happy about it, but IMHO not doing stoopid stuff like this (except in reports from "sources in Paris), and shiraq's France doing what it does best, posturing to try to continue to exist, in the ME and elsewhere.
Posted by: anonymous5089   2007-04-17 14:38  

#28  Thanks, USN, Ret., Darth Vader. I was busy getting married and buying a first house in 1982, which distracted me from the outside world. It sounds like the French behaviour was... unwise.
Posted by: trailing wife   2007-04-17 14:28  

#27  There are better versions of the HARM nowdays. The old HARMs could be beaten by the radar operator turning the radar off. Nowdays the missile goes for the last known position of the radar or can go into a loiter mode so when the radar comes back on, even in a different position if it is on a truck, the missile will re-target and take it out.
Posted by: DarthVader   2007-04-17 14:26  

#26  '82 was the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. The IAF destroyed the Syrian SAM sites in the Bekaa valley. An area most "experts" said couldn't be done with jets since the missiles were so advanced.
Posted by: DarthVader   2007-04-17 14:24  

#25  But in the final, critical, last seconds leading up to...(yawn)...that decisive french surrendering known the world over kicked into action!
Posted by: Vinegar Ulogum7733   2007-04-17 14:18  

#24  HARM: High speed Anti-Radiation Missile. designed to take out fixed radar sites by locking onto the radar emissions when the radar lights up an aircraft. The missile, one locked, follows that course to the target.
That is half your answer, TW, i will leave the history part to our other experts ( i can't remember what happened last week....)
Posted by: USN, Ret.   2007-04-17 14:17  

#23  Back up a moment, please. What happened in '82, and what is a HARM?
Posted by: trailing wife   2007-04-17 14:02  

#22  Strong odeur of merde. 2 seconds from firing means radar lock, and very likely, a HARM riding down the beam.
Posted by: ed   2007-04-17 13:50  

#21  Help me out here.

If you are two seconds from firing, that means you already have the radars turned on, right?

Sounds like '82 to me.
Posted by: Iblis   2007-04-17 13:17  

#20  As this was happening, a pair of Israeli reconnaissance aircraft circled over the headquarters of the French battalion in the Jabal Maroun area, possibly taking aerial photographs there.

Israel clearly knows who the enemy is.
Posted by: xbalanke   2007-04-17 12:48  

#19  Israel should give the Phrench exactly 24 hours to remove the AAA and Missile sites because they are percieved as a CLEAR provacation and threat to the free exercise of Israeli self defense. After 24 hours the Israelis should elimintate them. FYI I will give you BIG odds on the Phrench firing on Israeli Aircraft.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge   2007-04-17 12:08  

#18  The recent announcement that Pellegrini will be replaced in overall command next month

When was the announcement made? Before or after the incidents? Little Napolian Pellegrini wanted to show what a big man he was against the Israelis but his UN superiors decided he wasn't big enough.
Posted by: Angaiger Tojo1904   2007-04-17 11:29  

#17  the french were prob too drunk too actually fire the AA. if anyone else has seen the vid i have you know what i'm talking about
Posted by: sinse   2007-04-17 11:03  

#16  The French were just two seconds away from launching AA against two Israeli F-15s and about thirty seconds away from losing a SAM site and declaring de facto war on Israel.

It's my understanding that most air forces, including the US and Israel have standing ROE's that state they are free to retaliate if fired upon from the ground (got the US into a bit of trouble on the western border of Iraq and in Afghanistan at least once or twice as I recall).

Posted by: FOTSGreg   2007-04-17 10:46  

#15  That would have been silly. And expensive. For France. Israel has its whole military at Lebanon's doorstep. France's military is several time zones away.
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2007-04-17 10:36  

#14  Hah! As if.

More like: "The French were seconds away from wetting their pants, since they haven't the balls to actually shoot at a warplane."
Posted by: mojo   2007-04-17 10:27  

#13  And the French were just seconds from massive vigilante retaliation from the Sons of Heinlein.
Posted by: Excalibur   2007-04-17 10:26  

#12  My money is on the IAF. They wrote the book on how to take out SAM sites in 1982.
Posted by: DarthVader   2007-04-17 09:43  

#11  #5 They may have been "seconds" from firing, but in any duel between French fire control and Israeli countermeasures, my money's on the Israelis.

Which would have played havoc on French foreign arms sales. If you're going to buy junk, just buy Soviet Russian, Chinese, former eastern block stuff because it is at least cheaper junk.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2007-04-17 09:31  

#10  Good point Mike.
Posted by: plainslow   2007-04-17 09:04  

#9  I agree - why do the UN peacekeepers need AA for? They usually do f**k all in conflicts except take copious notes and photos they end up selling to Al-J and The Guardian. Maybe it was to keep the Hezbo's air force carrier pigeons grounded.
Posted by: Jack is Back   2007-04-17 09:00  

#8  Thanks Zen, needed the laugh. Throwing hat into the ring, French Toast.
Posted by: Icerigger   2007-04-17 08:48  

#7  They were perhaps ""second from" shooting; not the same thing as "downing". Presumeably, the two F-15's were armed and dangerous, and might have taken offense at being shot at.
Posted by: Bobby   2007-04-17 06:38  

#6  Two words: French Fried.
Posted by: Zenster   2007-04-17 01:46  

#5  They may have been "seconds" from firing, but in any duel between French fire control and Israeli countermeasures, my money's on the Israelis.
Posted by: Mike   2007-04-17 00:34  

#4  RUSSIA > WARNS ISRAEL ABOUT CONFLICT WITH SYRIA. D ***ng it, MISCALCULATION OF OPPOSING STRENGTHS may lead to incidents and finally a full-scale Israeli-Syrian War in ME, ergo Russia must continue to arm everybody and anybody, espec enemies of the West. And now you know why its Dubya-USA's fault.
Posted by: JosephMendiola   2007-04-17 00:31  

#3  General Alain Pellegrini, made it clear that he considered these incursions violated the UN Security Council resolution

Right. Anyone who violates these agreements should be nuked.
Posted by: gorb   2007-04-17 00:21  

#2  This really pisses me off. There is only one reason for France to bring AA with them to Lebanon.
Posted by: Mike N.   2007-04-17 00:19  

#1  Israel should tell France to FOAD on this one.
Posted by: Mike N.   2007-04-17 00:13  

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