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Afghanistan
Marines call for British CAS, Brits refuse to fire, Different ROE - Bomber Harris where are you?
2009-08-13
DAHANEH, Afghanistan -- The British jet called in by the U.S. Marines had the Taliban position in sight, but the pilot refused to fire, a decision that frustrated Marines on the ground but one in line with new orders by the top U.S. commander to protect civilians.

The Marines themselves didn't attack militants shooting at them Wednesday because women and children were in the compound, an approach meant to avoid civilian casualties at all costs.

"They did that on purpose," sniper platoon leader 1st Lt. Joseph Cull, 28, of Delafield, Wisconsin, said of the Taliban. "They are trying to bait us."

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, has made protecting Afghan civilians his top priority. The approach is a shift away from a military mindset whose traditional first response has been to kill as many militants as possible. By holding fire McChrystal hopes to avoid the massive civilian casualty cases of past months and years and help win over Afghan villagers.

U.S. Marines have been locked in battle with insurgents in Dahaneh in Helmand province after they stormed into the Taliban-held town early Wednesday. Militants have been lobbing rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and heavy machine gun fire at the U.S. troops.

The troops hope to break the Taliban grip in Dahaneh, sever smuggling routes and protect civilians from Taliban reprisals so Afghans can vote here during the Aug. 20 presidential election, which the Taliban have vowed to disrupt.

The Marines locked in on a Taliban position Wednesday in a cave in a nearby mountain, from which militants were firing heavy weapons. The troops called for an airstrike against the position, but the British Harrier jet that responded refused to fire its missiles because British rules of engagement require the pilot himself to identify the target, not just troops on the ground.

Each country in the more than 40-nation NATO-led coalition in Afghanistan has its own rules of engagement that apply to specific battle situations, but McChrystal's order to protect civilians applies to all forces in the country.

"Sure, that's frustrating, but we've got to deal with it," said Capt. Zachary Martin, commander of Golf Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marines.

Some 400 Marines and 100 Afghan troops moved into Dahaneh early Wednesday by helicopter and ground convoy. The troops took heavy fire from insurgents for most of the day, killing up to 10 militants after calling in an airstrike on an insurgent position.

But even that airstrike was carried out with great care.

Militants first started firing from the position about 5 a.m. Ground commanders wanted an airstrike called in on the position to help protect Marines receiving fire. But superior officers wanted to be certain there were no civilians there. Once Martin had established with near certainty that there were not, an airstrike hit the compound -- hours after the Marines first received fire.

The Marines say they can avoid civilian casualties with the help of the sophisticated surveillance technology they have. Strict orders have also been issued for the Marines to use proportional response when attacked.

But many of the riflemen voiced frustration at the limited options they were left with when trying to expand control of the town on Wednesday. The orders to hold fire appeared to have slowed their advance in Dahaneh, where after a full day they held only a small foothold outpost.

On Thursday the Marines expected another day of intense combat as they pushed deeper into the town. Insurgents seemed unwilling to fight overnight, when they can't match the Marines' night vision capabilities. But after the sun came up early Thursday, the first rounds of fire erupted.

"Right on cue!" shouted Sgt. Ryan Kelsey, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as the first shots rang out.

Elsewhere in Afghanistan, two separate roadside blasts in southern Afghanistan killed 14 civilians, including three children, underscoring the high price paid by ordinary people in the conflict with the Taliban, officials said Thursday.

Officials blamed the blasts on Taliban militants, who have made roadside bombings their primary weapons.

A blast on a road in the Gereshk district of Helmand province ripped through a vehicle carrying a family on Wednesday, killing 11 people, including two women and nine men, said Daud Ahmadi, the spokesman for the provincial governor.

In neighboring Kandahar province, three children were killed after they started playing with another bomb which they had found on the side of the road west of the provincial capital, police official Mohammad Shah Khan said. The victims were between 8 and 12 years old.

According to figures from the U.S.-based Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Organization, the number of incidents from IEDs soared to 828 last month, the highest level of the war and more than twice as many as in July 2008. The majority of the victims in such attacks have been civilians.
Posted by:GolfBravoUSMC

#20  TW, that is assuming that they are allowed to besiege the Taliban. Since there are "civilians" in the area, I thought the ROEs specified that the Marines must disengage and retreat.
Posted by: Rambler in Virginia   2009-08-13 22:47  

#19  The Marines locked in on a Taliban position Wednesday in a cave in a nearby mountain, from which militants were firing heavy weapons.

When was the last time American Marines (or any Western troops) got to besiege an enemy? I suspect the Taliban are not going to like the result of this particular choice.
Posted by: trailing wife   2009-08-13 22:44  

#18  Again, Disproportionate Retaliation is the only thing that has ever worked against Muslim insurgent terrorists. Indulge the quranimal, and he will take license. When war is unthinkable to the enemy, they won't wage it. As it is, they are indoctrinated in Pakistan - often in US subsidized UN refugee camps - to fight to the death in Afghanistan. That is a juggernaut that cannot be stopped until they are killed in masses. It is time to deploy Napalm.
Posted by: Unitle Borgia4836   2009-08-13 22:42  

#17  AllahHateMe


Each country in the more than 40-nation NATO-led coalition in Afghanistan has its own rules of engagement that apply to specific battle situations, but McChrystal's order to protect civilians applies to all forces in the country.

The Marines locked in on a Taliban position Wednesday in a cave in a nearby mountain, from which militants were firing heavy weapons. The troops called for an airstrike against the position, but the British Harrier jet that responded refused to fire its missiles because British rules of engagement require the pilot himself to identify the target, not just troops on the ground.
Posted by: GolfBravoUSMC   2009-08-13 22:19  

#16  If they consort with enemy fighters in a combat zone I think they qualify as voluntary combatants under Geneva Convention rules. I would think of them as "targets".

There's a good chance at least some of those women were forcibly married to Talibunnies with the kids as a result.
Posted by: lotp   2009-08-13 21:09  

#15  We have a jet?

I thought it was leased from the Russians.
Posted by: Pappy   2009-08-13 21:03  

#14  They are, JohnQC. >:-(

The only ROE we should have is "You f*ck with our military, you and everyone around you dies. Fast."
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2009-08-13 18:11  

#13  they should have used a MANPAD to shoot down the Brit Harrier and blamed in on the "unarmed civilians". WTF are we using Brits for CAS anyhow? They've been a poor ally for some time now.
Posted by: dzzrtrock   2009-08-13 18:09  

#12  I hope these donks aren't trying to work for a defeat out of this.
Posted by: JohnQC   2009-08-13 17:54  

#11  The Marines themselves didn't attack militants shooting at them Wednesday because women and children were in the compound, an approach meant to avoid civilian casualties at all costs.

Won't take the Talibunnies long to figure that one out. They will make certain women and children are around most of the time. It would seem that these ROEs would get people killed--our guys.
Posted by: JohnQC   2009-08-13 17:52  

#10  Where's the picture from?
Posted by: DK70 the Scantily Clad7177   2009-08-13 17:27  

#9  #8 A civilized army doesn't ordinarily attack camp-followers

Unless they're French and it's Agincourt.

......or Boer women and children taken from their farms in the veldt to British concentration camps and starved in the 1901-1902 timeframe.
Posted by: Besoeker   2009-08-13 17:26  

#8  A civilized army doesn't ordinarily attack camp-followers

Unless they're French and it's Agincourt.

Or they're Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, Talibunnies ,LeT, etc.
Posted by: Mullah Richard   2009-08-13 16:47  

#7  Chillax till it's Total War.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2009-08-13 16:10  

#6  They're camp-followers, Scooter. A civilized army doesn't ordinarily attack camp-followers, though it won't hold back if the camp-followers are putting themselves in the way.
Posted by: Steve White   2009-08-13 15:49  

#5  Why do we refer to these women and children as "civilians"? If they consort with enemy fighters in a combat zone I think they qualify as voluntary combatants under Geneva Convention rules. I would think of them as "targets".
Posted by: Scooter McGruder   2009-08-13 15:41  

#4  We have a jet?
Posted by: Bright Pebbles   2009-08-13 15:06  

#3  It's way past time to constitute the Kafiristan Liberation Army. It's been about a century since the conquest, we're in the neighborhood, and we'd only be recalling and relying on the most local of skills and instincts.

If it grows from there, so much the better.
Posted by: Halliburton - Mysterious Conspiracy Division   2009-08-13 13:05  

#2  So the bodycount shifts from afgan civilians to Sons of America.
Posted by: Skidmark   2009-08-13 12:46  

#1  Misleading headline, bordering on a blatant lie. US/NATO commander set the ROE. Even the marines weren't attacking so as to not kill civilians.
Posted by: AllahHateMe   2009-08-13 12:07  

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