Religious leaders have been learning how to promote and maintain Afghanistan's new stability. The residents of Mosahi village were deeply frustrated. The international peacekeeping force, ISAF, had built them a bridge across the Logar River â but the local mullah promptly issued a decree forbidding its use, because it had been constructed by what he described as infidels. So they went to Maulavi Mohammadjan Fazali, the imam of Kabul's Mandai mosque, who told them that the local mullah's decree was "nonsense". Now, the villagers happily use the bridge without having to worry that they are committing a sin.
Yes, Virginia. There is a difference between piety and stupidity. It's just that sometimes it's not very obvious. These poor yokels won't use a bridge because some ignorant holy man who's only read one book in his life tells them it's sinful.
Fazali was one of 25 religious leaders in Kabul who last month took part in a peace workshop conducted by the Sanayee Development Foundation, an Afghan non-governmental organisation. At the workshop the mullahs and imams were given training in how they can promote peace and reconstruction through their preaching. "I told them that the money spent on the bridge is part of the funds given to Afghanistan," Fazali said, after he spoke to people in Mosahi. "And besides, even the Holy Prophet got help from non-Muslims during the wars."
Normally, I'm against this kind of stuff in the U.S.A. It always comes out as touchy-feely claptrap, and they want to sell you audio tapes and self-published books by the lecturer at inflated prices. Apparently in Afghanistan there's a need for it, if only to explain the very basics, things like blowing the other person away is the last step in an argument, not the first, for instance, or don't marry your sister, even if she does have a cute butt...
Ulema - religious scholars â such as Fazali are highly respected in Afghan society and people tend to look to them for guidance. The Sanayee programme, the Haj ministry and even the World Health Organisation, WHO, have begun engaging this influential groups of clerics to support progressive changes in the country. Now, instead of preaching against political enemies and talking about abstruse theological points, the clerics are taking a more practical approach.
That's kind of what us benighted infidels have come to expect from clergymen â an idea that hasn't caught on in the Islamist world. One of Afghanistan's biggest problems is that its inhabitants don't have opinions, they have fatwahs. Imagine going through life without being able to make a decision for yourself, having to check with the local turban at every turn. They've got an entire nation convinced they're not bright enough to make their own decisions.
Workshop trainer Abdullah Kakaar told IWPR, "We taught them how to resolve disputes between people and how to bring peace instead." The workshop participants also discussed how to end prejudices about ethnicity and language, as well as family problems. Kakaar pointed out that the Islamic world had advanced systems of education in centuries past, "If the ulema preach education, then everyone will send their children to school, and when all the people are educated, peace and security can come to the country."
They had advanced (for the time) systems of education in the past, but that was before they decided they only needed one book and that the only opinion that matters is the local mullahs. Only mullahs can engage in argument. Everybody else has to shut up or they'll literally go to Hell. When people get educated — meaning absorbing some other people's ideas, comprehending them, widening one's horizon past the confines of a single turban-constricted skull — then they get dangerous. They might start thinking things that mullahs might not approve of. And then the mullahs would have to kill them.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 07:41 pm ||
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Hey, whatever gets them to stop killing in the name of Allah and start building a civil society is ok by me.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 21:20 Comments ||
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Islam has had an internal battle from some time beteen the "one book only" types of whom the Wahhabis are the latest and one of the worst manifestations, and the much more open and includsive types such as the Sufis. You should read "The Two Faces of Islam" by Stephen Schwartz.
He does an EXCELLENT job of delineating the differences and neither sugarcoating the problems, nor condemning the innocent.
Posted by: Ralph ||
04/16/2003 21:22 Comments ||
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Afghan President Hamid Karzai will seek action from Pakistan to prevent anti-government attacks in border areas during a state visit to Islamabad next week, the foreign minister said on Wednesday. Abdullah Abdullah told a news conference he would accompany Karzai on the one-day visit to Pakistan on April 22, when security would be on the agenda, as well as trade and aid. "Recently there have been some security incidents, which have been a cause of concern for the government of Afghanistan, for the people of Afghanistan and for the international community. Most of the activities were planned outside Afghanistan," he said, without specifically referring to Pakistan. But we all know it wasn't Samoa or Bolivia...
Other Afghan officials have accused Pakistan of involvement in the killing on Sunday of a cousin of the governor of Afghanistan's Kandahar province in a Pakistani border town. They also say remnants of Kabul's former Taliban regime have been launching guerrilla strikes from Pakistani territory.
This is going to bring this issue further out into the open â it's been trying to make its appearance for awhile now. Perv is going to issue some pious denials and he's going to do nothing. Qazi and Fazl will rant and fume over the Unfounded Accusations Against Simple, Pious Folk by the Perfidious Afghans. Two can play at the cross-border Krazed Killer game, though. If it comes to that, just a few bands of Tadjiks and Uzbeks with maybe a sprinkling of Special Forces could wreak enormous havoc on the wife-beating primitives inhabiting NWFP and Balochistan. And Karzai can probably be just as pious in his denials of all knowledge. How long before it starts? The Afghans, remember, beat the Russians. Pakistan hasn't won a war with anyone yet.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 07:40 pm ||
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Good Lord Yes!
When do we start?
Posted by: Whiskey Mike ||
04/16/2003 20:13 Comments ||
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I wonder if Karzai has decided to ask for some help. I'm sure the Imam of Uzbekistan would gladly lend him a few (thousand) people to "maintain order". They're all Uzbeks, of course, so it's "still in the family". For that matter, I'm sure Tadjikistan has a few unemployed it might want to export, as well. It would be very nice (for both parties) if Pakistan had a thought or two about that before raising the stakes right now.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 23:57 Comments ||
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IRNA -- Iranian Minister of Defense Rear Admiral Ali Shamkhani, in a message sent on Wednesday, expressed his condolences to the Saudi Arabian deputy prime minister and defense minister for the untimely passing away of his brother. Shamkhani, in his message to Prince Sultan Ibn Abd Al-Aziz As-Saud, implored God to bestow peace to the soul of the late emir of Mecca. Majid Bin Adb Al-Aziz, brother of the Saudi defense minister, croaked passed away two days ago. He was emir of Mecca for the past 20 years.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 02:58 pm ||
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Yep, I think he replaced the other bin Abdel-Aziz prince/gov of Mecca Province. You know, the one whose ouster was demanded by the guys who took over Haram Mosque for about a week. According to them, the guy liked his Johnny Walker too much. Am I right, folks?
Posted by: Michael ||
04/16/2003 15:07 Comments ||
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#2
Black Label wasn't it?
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
04/16/2003 15:30 Comments ||
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There is nothing wrong with Black Label....I'm serious, I read some of these posts and I get confused after the first sentence about Ali-This, Ali-That, Al-Aziz, Al Aziz As Saud, Adb Bin...sheesh...the only way we'll pull them into our century is to get them to start calling each other Tim, Richard, Carl,......"Hey Billy, strap this one around your waist"...It'd never happen.
#4
Porps: those names are a very valuable camouflage-form of self-defence.
Not only are we western infidels largely confused and bewildered by them, but after a few rantings they become so utterly boring to listen to that it is hard to concentrate.
I find after the 5th al-abdul-aziz-al-Saud, my poor brain just wants to go outside and look at the clouds or something.
IRNA -- Former British cabinet minister Robin Cook Wednesday warned Prime Minister Tony Blair that he must distance himself from US President George W. Bush if the UK is to be a major European power. "If the prime minister wants to restore Britain's status as a major European player he must now accept that moving closer to Europe requires, by definition, putting more distance between Britain and Bush," Cook said. Good advice, and worth every penny...
Blair's relationship with the US president had made Britain the "odd one out," with France and Germany now the dominant forces in the European Union, he said in an article for the New Statesman magazine. "Labour's objective on taking office in 1997 was to make Britain a partner of equal importance in a triangle of insignificance with Germany and France," he said. But after divisions over Iraq, Europe is "back to a Franco- German axis, with Britain once again the odd one out," he added. He says that like it's a bad thing...
Cook warned that the prime minister was wrong to have tried to establish the same warm friendship with Bush as he enjoyed with former US President Bill Clinton and said he must decide whether it is more important for the UK to be close to the US or Europe. I'd call that an easy choice, but hey, it's your country...
"The fundamental foreign policy dilemma for Britain is not Iraq, it is not even Europe, it is what kind of relationship we can maintain with the US while it is under neo-conservative management," he said. Yes! Damn those Zionists neo-conservatives!
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 02:54 pm ||
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I can now see why Cook's departure was considered a major political gain for Tony Blair. This guy's a certified Parisian nutcase.
The "European Union" is a financial, political, and cultural basketcase, on the slippery slide into oblivion. The best thing Blair could do is to begin emulating some of the policies of the United States, and cutting itself free of European chains.
I wonder what Cook's personal goals are, if he'd rather see Great Britain lose considerable portions of its sovereignty to Continental (I.E., France and Germany) Europe, rather than to be considered an equal partner with the most powerful nation on Earth.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 15:22 Comments ||
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cook is a communist, and what he's doing is a predictable in light of pending elections. Britain has socialists embedded so deep they will have a hard time recovering, the pressure to move britain into step with EU states is all part of the plan to instill into the EU a socialist super state, where they can rearm against the threat of a US superpower. Socialism once installed will give the EU a sufficient tax base so as to up collections from average citizens while protecting the oligarchic interests of the large corporations who will have reached an accomodation. The subversion of EU citizens is ongoing but by no means complete. Many know the extent of the subversion and many more are about to learn the truth.
#4
Oh ... Robin Cook. I thought it was Alistair Cooke. If the latter, I would give it some credence. But because it is the former Cook, it's a bunch of codswollop!
#5
The best thing Blair could do is to begin emulating some of the policies of the United States, and cutting itself free of European chains.
He better do it soon. I don't remember where the article is, but there is a movement underway by government officials in a few EU member states to make withdrawing from the EU practically impossible.
IRNA: International Development Secretary Clare Short Tuesday accused British and US forces of not doing enough to address the chaos and disorder in Iraq following the sudden collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime. First order of business was to kill everybody who was shooting at us. We'll get around to the rest, Clare.
"The situation is extremely worrying," worried said Short, who previously reversed her decision to resign from the British cabinet over the failure to secure a UN mandate for the war against Iraq. She reminded the Anglo-American coalition that they had "duties" under the Geneva Conventions and Hague Regulations to keep order and keep the civilian administration in Baghdad running that were "urgent." It's always easier to criticize others when there's no call for you to do anything similar. Or anything at all...
Speaking to journalists at the Foreign Press Association in London, the International Development Secretary suggested that UK and US troops were "clearly not prepared" and said they "should have done better" following the collapse of the Iraqi regime. Had it been a typical Arab army, the troops would have been the ones looting. Just as a quick example, take a look at what happened to Kuwait when the Iraqis took it. Seems like they've actually gotten off pretty easy...
The humanitarian situation was "serious," she said due to disorder in all major cities and many hospitals being without power, water and medical supplies. "No campaign is a success if there is no peace," she said. Short was also indirectly critical of the US and UK governments for "generalising too much" over the crucial role of the UN in post-conflict Iraq. She listed a host of resolutions that needed to be passed by the Security Council, including endorsing the setting up of an Iraqi interim administration to give it international legitimacy. The International Development Secretary declined to answer what she thought the long-term effect would be on Prime Minister Tony Blair as leader of the ruling Labour Party, saying it was "too early" to say. I think we can pretty much guess what she wants it to be, though...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:37 pm ||
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First they bitch because the war went too well, then they bitch when it slows down for rest and refit, then they bitch because it went too well again. After all that, they're bitching because the "peace" is taking too long to put everything back the way it was before we went to war. Do these people have anything else to do? Don't they ever make a POSITIVE contribution to society, other than dying and leaving it?
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 14:04 Comments ||
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Well, they do produce fertilizer while they're alive. That's something, isn't it?
Posted by: Fred ||
04/16/2003 15:03 Comments ||
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Maybe this is not the exact place for this rant, but here goes. Related to Clare and previous article on Robin Cook.
It's been proven by the events of the last month that Robin's and Clare's opinions on the war have been totally discredited. Toss into that every other whiner/anti-war protester in the world. No quagmire, no 500,000 deaths (although every one IS tragic), etc...How right you are, Old Patriot!!
So why was Michael Kinsley on Charlie Rose last week with that snively voice and middle-of-the-road relativism? What a whiner. Ted Koppel had a former Syrian govt. official, a Palestinian perfesser, and an, are you ready?, Iranian FILM DIRECTOR!!! to discuss the hurt feelings of the Syrians in light of Rummy's and Colin's comments. Ted did not ask ONE tough question to the Syrian, who was railing against the American policy of democritization of the Middle East. I'd have asked the guy what the hell, couldn't you use a democracy in Syria? What about your elections? What about your totally Fascist, discredited, inhumane Baathist policies of the last several decades? The Iranian talked about the "massacre" of the Iraqi people perpetrated by the Coalition. Ted meekly asked him to define "massacre", which the guy did with gusto, and that shut up Ted. Ted gave them a total pass. Ted, you were so good with the 3rd ID. Now you're back home, what the hell did you learn over there? I think Ted's Manhattan cocktail crowd probably dissed him a bit upon his return, so now he has to bow to midgets and give equal time to get back on people's invitation list. Ted, THESE GUYS AND HAROLD RAINES WERE WRONG. Rantburgers, excepting Murat, were right.
Posted by: Michael ||
04/16/2003 15:28 Comments ||
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to quote Mojo's comment way down below:
Nyaaaaahhhhh....shaddap!
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 15:28 Comments ||
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#5
I am begining to think that these people have no touch with reality. They think that a soldier just puts down his weapon and starts pumping water? We DID NOT target the Iraqi infrastructure. These people were not getting water or food from Saddam BEFORE the war. Can we have like a week before they all start whining about what's broken?
#6
Watched a few min.of Larry King last night.He had the Syrian ambasader on.King didn't ask a single question(not even 1) about Hezbollah,Islamic Jihad,et al.
A clear-the-air telephone call between President Jacques Chirac and President George W Bush this week was secured only by repeated pleading from French diplomats, it emerged yesterday. The 20-minute call on Tuesday was the first time they had spoken for more than two months. When asked if the talk had been "positive", Ari Fleischer, Mr Bush's spokesman, said: "From the President's point of view, he would call it a business-like conversation." M Chirac's spokesman said he had been "pragmatic" about post-war Iraq. Before the call could be arranged, Jean-David Levitte, the French ambassador to Washington, had to lobby Karl Rove, Mr Bush's chief political strategist, and Stephen Hadley, the deputy national security adviser, at the White House. Final American agreement to the call was secured only after discussions on Monday between Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, and Dominique de Villepin, the French foreign minister.
#1
"Historians studying 'The Call' revealed that during the entire time Chirac thought he was having a private conversation with Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell and Cheney were listening in on the speaker phone in the Oval Office.
"According to Lord Hadley-Smythe in 2035's smash non-fiction best-seller "Payback's a Bitch: Chirac and the Decline of France", the President's contribution to the conversation mainly consisted of monosyllabic yeses, uh-huhs, and oks. Chirac thought that this was just another time that the President was being somewhat less than eloquent.
"But historians have discovered what really happened. According to Rice, who later became the first female President, Bush had to hit the mute button when Cheney started to do his impression of Chirac. It grew further out of control when Rummy started to demonstrate what Rice described as 'interesting gestures he learned over the past 70 years symbolizing impossible sexual acts, usually involving mammals other than primates.'
"Powell sarcastically commented on Chirac's suggestions in a German accent. President Rice later learned that he stole some of his best lines from a blog called Rantburg.
"Rice, leaning back in her leather chair at her Presidential library, smiled and pleaded the 5th when asked what she did at this historic moment. When Lord Hadley-Smythe pressed for details, she winked and asked, 'How 'bout those Redskins?'"
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 22:09 Comments ||
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EFL
Worried by the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in France, the country's interior minister has threatened to expel any foreign Muslim religious leader who disseminates extremist propaganda. That would be all of them. Nicolas Sarkozy issued the warning after the unexpectedly strong showing of a Muslim fundamentalist party in weekend elections for a new council to represent France's various Islamic factions. The Union of Islamic Organizations of France â inspired by Egypt's banned fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood â won 19 of the council's 58 seats. The moderate, Algerian-backed Mosque of Paris, which was considered a favorite, won just 15 seats. It's the "Vote for us or die!" platform the extremists run on that makes them so attractive to voters.
"We want to say very simply: imams who propagate views that run counter to French values will be expelled," Sarkozy told Europe-1 radio on Tuesday. Sarkozy, who was instrumental in creating the council, said he was determined to curb the influence of extremism on one of Europe's largest Muslim communities. He said he would not allow the council to be used as a vehicle for spreading extremist views, notably sharia, or Islamic law. "Islamic law will be applied nowhere because it is not the law of the (French) Republic," he said. That's the first thing the extremists want to change.
Unlike Roman Catholicism or Judaism, Islam has no hierarchical structure in France and, therefore, no leadership that can directly communicate concerns or grievances to the government. The lack of structure has forced thousands of Muslims around France to practice their faith in makeshift underground prayer rooms simply because there are not enough mosques. "If fundamentalism or extremism has spread so much, it is because we condoned an Islam of cellars and garages," Sarkozy said. Part of the council's purpose is to oversee the building of more mosques and encourage foreign imams to learn French. Oh yeah, that'll stop it.
But Sarkozy also made clear the government will keep a close watch on the new council's activities and expects it to abide by French law. "It is precisely because we recognize the right of Islam to sit at the table of the (French) Republic that we will not accept any misconduct," he said. "Ali, if you want to sit at the table, quit kicking your brother. And put that knife down, you'll poke your sister's eye out!"
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 10:47 am ||
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The French are in a lot of trouble. They are fast approaching the tipping point for rapid cultural change-over. The Muslims do not have to be anywhere near a majority to cause this. Past examples of this phenomena are the Indo-European invasions, the Germanic infiltration of Gaul in the 300s, and of course the Arab invasions of the 600 and 700's. Contrary to popular imagination, none of these events involved massive hordes, only culturally dynamic minorities. France fits the profile well: a birthrate well below the replacement level, widespread pacifism, a descredited and corrupt ruling elite that the populace has no will to overthrow. They really only have two options left: surrender or genocide. (I consider mass deportations to be genocide; historically, mortality is in the 10-15% range during such tragedies).
#2
Alaska Paul: I think Chirac should be talking to the Pope, not George Bush. Instead of condemning the US for Iraq, the John Paul II should be looking at the menace in his own backyard. The Vatican is too busy fighting the last (cold) war. I know from some rather unorthodox sources that the Church is still expending a lot of resources smuggling funds and materials into Cuba and China. The Jesuits need to be in Sarcelles instead. If neither the Catholics or the evangelicals can muster the will to work toward the conversion of the Muslim lumpen in Europe, then they are utterly spent as a force.
Brutus: Interesting point about the Saudi money. Are there French readers here who know if any structural/legal barriers prevent the construction of mosques in France? Sarkozy's remarks seem to imply the same. My gut feeling is that the Saudi money has been there all along and that it has been funnelled underground (no pun intended) due to some French de jure or de facto prohibition. The French seem to have decided that it is better to have the money in the open rather than flowing though illicit channels. As you point out, they still lose.
He needs some advice and counsel on how to deal with his 5th column before it consumes him
France is the 5th column.
Chiraq is only trying to find a way to get back in Bush's good graces so that he can infiltrate and tear down the US from the inside.
Scum sucker.
#4
Alaska Paul (a/k/a Papa Pasha....my Cyrillic font doesn't work either, drat) -- Why would Chiraq call about advice from us silly cowboys? It is so simplisme. Surrender now, and maybe the women can wear mini-burqas (they get to show their ankles, the flirts!).
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 18:49 Comments ||
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Baba Yaga---I was just being humorous and sarcastic. Chiraq knows he is in trouble, but he has neither the brains nor the character to admit it, so he will keep playing the game, like a mediocre chess player against a master, even though everyone knows that it is checkmate in a few more moves.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/16/2003 19:48 Comments ||
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#6
I thought I was too. Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to do that. Maybe I just need to get some sleep.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 21:41 Comments ||
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President Jacques Chirac's ruling party followed up on the French leader's effort to make amends with the United States, saying Wednesday that Paris was Washington's "best ally" in the fight against terrorism. They must be drinking the wine we aren't buying anymore.
The comments came a day after Chirac sought to repair ties frayed by the war in Iraq by telephoning President Bush. It was the first time the two leaders had spoken in more than two months. "We continue to think, as paradoxical as it might sound, that we are the best allies of the Americans, because we are preoccupied by the same reality â terrorism," said Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, the spokesman of Chirac's Union for a Popular Movement, or UMP. "If we step into the spiral of hatred ... who will be the winner?" Donnedieu de Vabres said in an interview with France-2 television. We all know who the loser will be
Chirac told Bush in a 20-minute phone conversation Tuesday that France was willing to adopt a "pragmatic approach" on postwar issues, according to Chirac's spokeswoman, Catherine Colonna. The French leader also welcomed the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime and the brevity of the war that ousted the Iraqi leader, Colonna said, adding that Chirac expressed condolences for American deaths in the conflict. The phone call was the clearest signal in recent days that the French leader wants to repair damage done to relations with Washington by their conflicting views of the Iraq war. "Bush answered the phone, so that's a win for us!"
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer called the conversation "businesslike." "Caller ID was broken, otherwise we wouldn't have picked up"
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 10:31 am ||
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It would still be very useful to us to have UN support in Iraq - not just humanitarian, but police work, and a UNSC blessing on our political work - which would help when assorted groups in Iraq ask "why did you invite THOSE guys to the meeting and not US"
But we need that without giving UNSC any large measure of control.
France on the other hand needs US friendship - to keep their economy up, to fight terrorism, to save them from isolation as the axis of weasels breaks up, to help them in Africa, etc.
A deal is the logical thing.
OTOH a deal was also the logical thing BEFORE the war, and Chirac nixed it.
One hopes that Chirac sees things differently now - if he does this relationship can be repaired, to some degree.
#2
Absolutely! France is the best ally the United States has today - after Great Britain, Australia, Poland, the Czech Republic, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Slovakia, Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Israel, Estonia, Latvia, Liechtenstein, and the Philippines. Oh, and a few more of the Coalition of the Willing I can't remember right off the top of my head. Plus a few countries that remain "neutral".
But France is right up there in the top of those left, absolutely!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 11:06 Comments ||
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#6
France (which also includes Chiraq)is in deep trouble--on many fronts. They (and it may or may not yet include Chiraq) are beginning to have the realization sink in. The French and Chiraq do not realize how treacherous were their actions. They have behaved like an enemy or at best a collaborator. We Merkins are pretty forgiving, but we will not give this one a pass. France is going to have to clean up their act and/or bottom out before we deal with them again on any meaningful level. I hate to see nations go down the tubes, but maybe there needs to be an example for the world to see when one stabs this country in the back.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/16/2003 12:50 Comments ||
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#7
Re LiberalHawk's note about NATO taking over ISAF: I don't want the French having a role in Afghanistan. Last time they did they refused orders on bombing runs. They're just as likely to start trying to cut deals in and outside of the Karzai government to try and screw us and others, and they're the most likely of all the Europeans to cozy up to the Pashtuns.
No thanks -- keep 'em at arm's length.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/16/2003 13:46 Comments ||
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#8
President Jacques Chirac's ruling party followed up on the French leader's effort to make amends with the United States, saying Wednesday that Paris was Washington's "best ally" in the fight against terrorism.
#9
Puts the lie to the anti-war jeremiad that the invasion of Iraq would fragment the "alliance" of the war on terror.
Posted by: af ||
04/16/2003 14:46 Comments ||
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#10
steve: interesting point
I think post-iraq war we may be coming to a split between "hawkish quasi-Wilsonians" like myself, and full-fledged "Jacksonians". Now jsut to remind everyone I have been pro-war on Iraq from the beginning, and approved of going without a 2nd/16th resolution when France proved unreasonable. However, frankly I look at everything thats on our plate right now and I am getting nervous about strategic overstretch. We need support all over the place - certainly from NATO, if not from France on its own. Yes there is a political cost when you bring on board unreliable partners (look at our experience with the Russians in Kosovo) but it also conserves your own national power. I think you have to look case by case and prioritize. Id much rather have French (or any other non-coalition of the willing European) troops on the ground in Afghan than in Iraq. Its hard to see what the French could do there that the Pakis havent already done - and in any case, supporting Pashtun-nasties and undermining Karzai is likely to piss off the Russian and Germans as much as us - goes against Chiracs grand strategy.
For similar reasons I WANT a UNSC resolution signing off on the political process in Iraq, as long as we dont have to pay too much to get it. At this point a good UNSC resolution with no real UN power is worth more than Iraqi debt relief or some reconstruction contracts. I am also skeptical of any real military action now towards Syria (I think the current pressure is more to keep Syria from interfering in Iraq, much like similar pressure on Iran shortly after Taliban fall). After Iraq the next "target" should be Iran, by generally peaceful means. When thats done, and Iraq and Afghanistan rebuilt, and some degree of reconciliation with weasels, we will be in much better shape to take on Syria, Saudi, and Pakland.
#11
I think Chirac has been getting too much advise from the former Iraqi Information Minister! France is as much our ally in 2003 as Japan was our ally in 1941! I only hope and pray that our leadership continues to stick to their guns and tells France where to go.
#12
France shouldn't get squat for forgiveness at least until they acknowledge, apologize for, and cause heads to roll over their recent illegal arms sales to Iraq (apparently they found Roland-3s too now). Even -- no, especially -- if they laundered it all through Syria.
But come on, just because they now realize the need to make nicey-nicey rhetoric doesn't mean that underneath they're not still comfortably naked in Syria's Ba'athhouse. They have to come clean about this shit. All of it. Dump their "sphere of influence" protection of AssadJr that'll keep him stupidly stubborn enough to resist all reform. Then we can talk.
Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha! You think wine sales are down now! Wait until the media catalog all the French illegal doings in Iraq. The last time I held a grudge against a major retailer, they lost my business for over a decade. You, France, have already lost my business for life!
Posted by: Tom ||
04/16/2003 17:15 Comments ||
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#14
liberalhawk--you're right, we do have a lot on our plates, and we shouldn't even think of doing anything serious with Syria or Iran right now.
However, I think it is far too soon to go back to the UN and make nice. We need to make sure that Iraq is well on the way to a stable democracy, and if the UN has anything other than a humanitarian role, that will never happen. Look at Kosovo. That's well on its way to being a UN protectorate like the Palestinians. We can't afford to have another cesspool like that in the Arab world.
The price we would have to pay for that UN blessing would be ridiculous. Hell, they didn't wait for us to get to Baghdad before Kofi & Co started demanding a role. Not asking, not suggesting, but demanding that we let them in to run the show while we paid for everything.
You also make the assumption that Chirac and the rest of his government are going to do something rational, after months of proving that they are anything but rational. What sane people would go out of their way to backstab one of their closest allies like they have? Anyway, they still don't get it. They think that having Bush take a phone call after a couple of months means all is well. All is definitely NOT well, especially if de Villepin is going around to hostile Arab countries sucking up to them.
The Germans are pragmatic. They are helping us with Afghanistan, and providing security to our bases to free up soldiers. Schroder's an idiot, but I don't think he went around like Chirac did to undercut us at every turn. Unlike the French, I think the Germans really do like us, and I have hope that this alliance can be saved and will be a strong one again.
Russia? Well, they're opportunists. They never will be completely our friends, but they will think a little harder next time.
The best course of action right now is give the Iraqis our expertise, our security and our attention. Iraqi debt relief, and rewarding our allies with contracts will be more beneficial in the long run than kissing up to a hostile UN.
It may take a few years, but that would give the lie to the idea that Americans don't finish what they start. It's not going to be easy, but this is the country helped rebuild Europe and South Korea.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 19:36 Comments ||
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General Staff said on Tuesday that 1,166 U.S. military personnel, who were in Turkey within the scope of Operation Northern Watch and site-survey activities, would go to Germany, and noted that equipments and materials, which had been brought to Turkey, would be re-sent from Iskenderun Port. General Staff General Secretariat Press Information Center said 1,166 U.S. military personnel would go from Incirlik to Germany today and tomorrow. Saw a small article yesterday that the last aircraft supporting Northern Watch had left Incirlik.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 08:05 am ||
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#2
Sorry TGA, as much as I like your stands and commentary, that is not their home, and in short order, may not even be their basing. The U.S. is starting to reassess where we're wanted/needed, and Germany seems to be neither, other than for their economic offerings...
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 9:00 Comments ||
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#3
If you leave, you leave, not because of Schroeder but because you have changed strategies. Whether 60000 troops are still needed in Germany (that very soon will only have EU members and Switzerland as neighbors) is one thing. You are here because you got the best infrastructure here, not for our sake anymore. The Cold War is over.
All I can say is that most GI's still feel very much at home in Germany. A second home of course. Except for the extreme left nobody in Germany has ever said the troops should leave. People don't agree with the Iraq war but that doesn't change their attitude about Americans. At least not much.
Ask any serviceman coming home from Germany. Most will agree with me.
I can't assess whether you will be better off in Poland or Bulgaria. It's your choice. No hard feelings. Of course Germans will miss the dollars, too. But these dollars make less of an impact than is often estimated in the U.S.
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 9:46 Comments ||
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#5
Don't forget to count the multiplier. A dollar spent in some communities has a ripple effect larger than the dollar itself. In vidalia, Georgia, the multiplier is about 4.5.
#6
If the U.S. leaves, look for Germany to start building up its military. Maybe even they can get rid of that stupid thing that German soldiers can't take part in military conflicts around the world. The past is the past. Germans are stuck too much feeling guilty and sorry for their past and that is why we are seeing this anti-war crap right now. A strong proud Germany will be an even more valuable ally... against the Jihadi terrorist OBL types.
#7
Will an American withdrawal lead to a German buildup? Given its historical baggage, if Germany starts building up its military, its neighbors will take notice and start increasing their defense expenditures, as well. Normally, an arms race would be viewed as a bad thing. However, given how weak European militaries are, it's not clear that competitive military spending increases would constitute a real problem. It might even be a good thing, since European countries will have to cut the social spending that acts as a significant drag on economic growth by subsidizing laziness (not to mention Muslim fanatics with large families).
#8
I hear Eastern Europe is lovely this time of year.
Posted by: (lowercase) matt ||
04/16/2003 14:07 Comments ||
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#9
Have to go with TGA on this one - our infrastructure in Germany to support our troops, plus the support we get from the German population, is the result of 50 years or more of partnerships. The Germans in Wurttemburg, Rheinland-Pfalz, Bavaria, Baden, or Hesse aren't the problem. The problems come from the Germans in the north, where there are very few US troops, and therefore less contact, and from the east, which was part of the Warsaw Pact until 1990. Unfortunately, "upper Germany" - the high land to the south, is far less populated than the flat areas of the north, and the government reflects that fact. All things considered, I can see the United States remaining militarily in Germany, while looking to the East to find additional locations for military deployments that won't be as limited by local politics as the bases in Germany are.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 15:15 Comments ||
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Long article from WaPo I'll just give you the highlights.
An American backlash against French products and businesses has started to bite, dashing hopes here that appeals in the United States to punish France economically for opposing the war in Iraq would go unheeded. American importers of French wine are reporting sharp drops in sales in the past two months, and other French products also have been affected. The Federation of Wine Exporters has called a meeting Thursday to discuss how to respond. The nation's principal business federation took the unusual step of publicly acknowledging the problem, conceding today that sales, recruitment and business contacts have been hurt. It appealed to consumers and businesses to keep political differences from affecting commerce.
Maybe they should appeal to the French gummint to keep commerce from affecting political differences... But since that doesn't make any sense, the inverse would seem to make sense. So never mind.
The American backlash apparently is having little or no impact on business with Germany, the other major European country that actively opposed the war. A survey by the Association of German Chambers of Commerce and Industry of more than 300 German companies doing business in the United States found no effect. Its obvious why France would be affected more than Germany. Anti-French feeling is stronger, and Germany doesn't sell the high-profile discretionary consumer items that France does. Who in their right mind would buy German wine?
Except for Moselles... mit prÀdikat, of course...
"We have seen French wines decreasing," Deutsch said. "We've seen stores take French wines off the floor of their store. We've seen major chains stop the advertising of French wines in their weekly ads." He reported substantial increases in sales of Italian, Australian and Spanish wines. Glad to hear this! They should find that Italian, Australian and Spanish wines are better quality and value. Resulting in permanently lost customers.
I think Bourdeaux sales have already been replaced by Cabernets and such, so I don't think Chianti or Sangria are going to displace them. Australian wines, on the other hand, should see a nice spike, since they're in the club...
"It's a very , very deep reaction," said Carreras, who is French. "We would never have expected something so lasting. I think it has been accelerating even in the last four weeks." Do I detect the power of the internet at work here?
He said he thinks that business will pick up only when Chirac stops making anti-U.S. statements. "We want to send the message to the French side to please do something. Or, if you don't want to do anything, then please shut up," Touton said. Welcome to the 21st century! Where power is increasingly in the hands of the people. Chirac is a 20th century politician struggling to understand what is happening.
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/16/2003 12:17 am ||
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#1
As long as we're talking German wines - I'm partial to Gewürztraminer, but not the french versions which seem too sweet. And yes, California produces fine Gewürztraminers - spicy, dry
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 10:35 Comments ||
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#2
Here's an email I just received from a friend in the Reserves. Can't vouch for it, but seems to sound right. Maybe one reason Germany is getting a little more rope than France:
Subject: FW: Chaplain's Thought For The Day
(Thursday 10 April 03)
Sunday, 30 March 2003
As usual I was running late. So, you can imagine my frustration level as approached the main gate of Ramstein Air Base only to find traffic backed up! Nearing the checkpoint I realized that not only was there a long line of cars, but traffic had come to a complete stop as a result of all entrance gates being closed.
Over the past 18-months, there have been many opportunities to practice our patience as we have had to "hurry up and wait" as a result of heightened security. While we realize the necessity, it's still frustrating at times for even the most easy-going folks. This was one of those times for me! I needed to be where I was going, and I needed to be there NOW! The German soldiers, the ones manning the entrances of American military installations here in Germany, were just milling around, chatting as if those of us in line had all the time in the world. Things seemed to go from bad to worse! The German gate guards began walking among the stopped cars, asking us to turn off our engines and headlights. I realized that no traffic was exiting or entering the Air Base. My feelings of frustration began to turn to ones of concern. Just what was going on?
A few minutes later I noticed blue lights approaching from the direction of the air terminal. Close behind were two military medical buses with their RED CROSS . Lights were on in the buses, and I.V. bags could be seen hanging. It was then that I realized that these were more of our wounded warriors being transported from the battlefields to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center for treatment. I certainly wasn't prepared for what happened next. All of the German soldiers, our gate guards, began walking toward the concrete barriers that divide the inbound and outbound lanes of traffic. As the blue lights neared, more German soldiers seemed to appear from nowhere, lining the road, shoulder to shoulder. Right on cue, without a word being spoken, these soldiers snapped a sharp salute as the buses drove pass, rendering arms until well after the last bus had passed. Needless to say, I was speechless and deeply moved. What a show of respect for fellow soldiers! (Angie McLean)
A little background - The German Army is at Gates of all military installations in Germany providing entry control on a 24 X 7 basis to relieve US Forces that are in middle east.. A different perspective on our German allies. Our governments may be at odds over Iraq Policy - but Military understands Military Here are our Allies! --- Soldier to Soldier, rendering honor and respect! Our allies, our comrades, those who know the price that some have to pay for freedom did not have to be asked or prompted, it came from their character and soldiering heart! May God bless and watch over all soldiers and their loved ones as they stand in harm's way for us!
Blessings and Peace,
One more little note to this...Two AM in the morning, a single C-17 lands at Ramstein with one patient on board -- 19 year Pfc. Jessica Lynch, and who shows up to escort the ambulance to Landstuhl... over 100 German Politzi cars an entire Germany Army contingency assigned to Ramstein..
CH (COL) DAVID E.MCLEAN CHIEF, PASTORAL SERVICES ERMC/LRMC
"At separate briefings,(Danish-LH) Fogh Rasmussen and Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said that their governments were considering sending troops but that it was to early to say when.
"Dutch Foreign Minister Jaap De Hoop Scheffer said any deployment of European peacekeepers would have to be coordinated with U.S. and British troops in Iraq."
#8
Germany makes lots of excellent wine, though the best German wines are made in Alsace...
Germany does many things very well. Unfortunately making wine is not one of them!
I doubt we will see the 4th ID in Alsace anytime soon, but you never know!
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/16/2003 1:37 Comments ||
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#9
1. There are many fine German wines.
2. There are many fine German products that could be considered luxuries--Mercedes, Porsche and BMW for three. These cars could be replaced by Japanese or American vehicles, if consumers were so inclined. Evidently, thus far, they are not.
#10
Having spent a lot of time in Germany over the last couple of years, and having drank a fair amount of German wine. I must say, while some German wines are interesting!, most don't compare with (for example) Australian cask wine you can buy (in Australia) for a fifth of the price.
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/16/2003 2:42 Comments ||
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#11
German wine is (or rather can be) excellent. No, not that Liebfraumilch plonk they sell in the US. I know a few winemakers in Franconia who can compete with the best in the world. White wine most of it though.
#12
Of course this boycott will hurt and it is going to get far worse than the unthinking chirac ever imagined. Watch the tourist dollars go away, this will hurt far more than they know now. France has stepped out ahead, its reconnisance was to say inadequate, now the ramifications start for all the short term profile and momentum won, a hundred fold kickback is just getting under way. The french cafe set can posture and spin their complacency, wearing it on their sleeves, but the American people watched the subversion, analyzed it, and now will have the last word. The boycott will end when Chirac is sent packing by his own people waking up to the antics of this meglomaniac.
#13
It does my heart good, I tell you. I can only hope it continues. The article says American tourism to France is down twenty percent. That's not enough. I'd like to see it fall a lot more than that. By the way, have any of you seen a web site called Buy French Now? Evidently it's a backlash against the backlash. It's all Vive la France-type stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of the dissenting e-mail they get is really Neanderthal ranting, and they're too happy to post that stuff. If some of you would post some civil, well-reasoned Frog-bashing on Buy French Now, it would be great. The site appears to be run by a pair of smug, New Agey apologists with a high degree of cranial-rectal interface. For me, this isn't about the French opposing the war. It's about the French.
Posted by: Joe ||
04/16/2003 7:00 Comments ||
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#14
Joe, wait till the summer. A lot of people are just making their vacation plans right about now, and I don't see a lot of "I must see Paris" stuff going around.
I did see a tiny little snippet in the paper about some website that was devoted to budget French vacations a couple of weeks ago. I never saw those two words (budget French) in the same sentence before, so I guess they are starting to feel the pain.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 7:29 Comments ||
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#15
Germany makes some excellent white wines, but so does California, which, in addition, makes excellent red wines.
One reason Americans spurn California wine is because we (like the Europeans) don't export our table wine, and table wines don't compare well with varietal wines. (A line from the old National Lampoon âNote: the best wines donât come with a screw top.â)
To be realistic, an excellent growing season for gapes in Europe is more-or-less a typical California growing season.
Posted by: John Phares ||
04/16/2003 7:57 Comments ||
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#16
I predict that their problems and decline will only increase. There are many more "stunning" revelations of French perfidity that have yet to penetrate the American psyche. Jacques not only stepped in the merde, he fell face first into a hog waste lagoon.
#17
I also heard yesterday, on Fox, that it was Bush who called Chirac (I'd assumed the other way around), apparently to ask for France's help with another of their pet dictators - Assad.
BTW: Steve Breen's Op-ed cartoon in the San Diego Union this AM was classic: Assad sitting at his desk looking aghast as an aide, holding a phone, whispers: "It's Tommy Franks, he'd like a sample of your DNA" heh heh
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 8:54 Comments ||
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#18
Germany makes the best riesling (a type of white wine) around.
As for the screw-top rule, that's now outdated. Since cork is becoming scarce and more expensive, many wineries have switched to synthetic corks. Bonny Doone, however, has started putting screw tops on some of their wines, and their wines are all good to great.
Boycotting French wine shouldn't be a problem for anyone who likes wine, since California and Australia long ago left France's vineyards in the dust.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
04/16/2003 12:16 Comments ||
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#20
No need to trash French wines, they still make excellent ones. But I remember touring the Australian Barossa Valley and I tasted wine that matched any French quality... at a fraction of the French price. Unfortunately these wines rarely ever makes it to Europe.
Ummmmm yes the Germans started wine in Australia 150 years ago.
Another thing. Californian wine saved French wine from extinction hundred years ago when the phylloxera plague killed nearly all French rootstocks.
#22
I wonder if the German army secretly wishes it could have taken part in some real action somewhere, in part to test itself. I suspect in the upper echelons somewhere, someone would like to prove the German military is up to it. I'm not saying they're eager, but come on, like the old saying goes, all dressed up and no place to go??
#24
I wish I could see some video of that salute given by the German gate guards at Ramstein. This event should have been given much wider publicity. Instead our national news is speculating about Laci Peterson's fate.
#25
RW, you might have a point here. I know that it did boost the morale of the German military a lot when AWACS planes manned by Germans helped securing the US coast (while US planes were away in Afghanistan). The German military is about as pro-American as it gets. Every pilot has undergone extensive training in the U.S. and they have been treated very well there.
As far as I know, even Schroeder (God curse his non existing moustache) has not ruled out German peacekeeping troops in Iraq (although under UN umbrella which is something German constitution mandates).
Although Schroeder will deny it, there is an opinion shift in Germany concerning the war. And Schroeder more and more comes under "friendly fire" from his leftist party members who are against any economical reforms. They might topple him sooner or later which probably means anticipated elections. So maybe we won't have to wait until 2006 to get a new government.
But we will still have to live with France and an expanded European Union. Although I'm less pessimistic about the fate of the EU than Old Patriot sems to be. The pressure from people all over Europe to make the EU a more democratic institution is rising. And Europe cannot go back to particularism.
Some people just can't leave well enough alone...
To the people of this bucolic beach town, she was the "mystery skater," the "roller-blading anti-American," and a bunch of other names too graphic to be repeated. How Lynda Ragsdale acquired those names is a tale of contrasting definitions of what it means to be a patriot in a time of war.
I suppose it depends on how loosely you define "patriot."
Ragsdale said all she was trying to do when she got out her scissors and strapped on her skates last week was to get rid of pro-war clutter attached to the large shade trees that line the town's quaint main street, Linden Avenue. That clutter just happened to be yellow ribbons attached to the trees by residents trying to show support for troops overseas. By the time she was done skating and snipping, she had removed two dozen ribbons and made herself public enemy No. 1.
Very patriotic. Yep. Puts her right up there with Patrick Henry...
Since then, Ragsdale, a 30-year-old layabout artist and spiritual seeker who is currently reading a book channeled through an angel named Kryon, has been a target for anonymous callers and people cruising by her house.
Golly. I can't imagine why. It's not like she had her picture taken on an antiaircraft gun while U.S. planes were flying over... But then, she didn't have an antiaircraft gun, did she?
If she seems a trifle off-center, she admits as much, calling herself a nut "bourgeois bohemian." She described her childhood as one of grinding poverty in a white ghetto on the south side of Chicago. Food was not always plentiful, and when the gas was shut off for nonpayment, she and her sister and brother took cold showers. At 14, she said, she went to work as a restaurant hostess. "I had a lot of things to overcome," she said.
"I'm not responsible for my own actions. I have issues."
You might say she made herself up as she went along. The result is a determined, voraciously curious woman with unshakable beliefs. One of those is that war is usually a pretty crummy idea. "If somebody was standing on my porch with a gun, I would defend myself," she said.
That's too bad...
But she never saw Saddam Hussein standing on America's porch.
Didn't look, either...
As for the argument that the ribbons don't indicate support for the war but only for the fighting soldiers, Ragsdale considers that an intellectual shell game. If you're pro-troops and the troops are fighting a war, you're for the war, her theory goes.
Gee. We agree on something. If you say you're pro-troops but oppose the war, then you're anti-troops.
Worse, Ragsdale thought putting up ribbons all over town was communicating the message that everyone in Carpinteria was pro-war.
Everybody but her...
After being cornered at the gas station, she said, she tried to skate off. But one of the crowd yelled, "Don't let her get away." She said she only managed to escape by cowering hiding in some bushes. Interesting read. Just goes to show that some people believe THEY, and THEY ALONE have "rights".
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 11:07 am ||
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#1
*sigh* People like Ragsdale... It's her right to express her opinion on anything and everything from artichokes to zithers, but that right ends in the act of committing a crime like vandalism, or destruction of property. My right to use my fist ends just before the other person's nose begins. I've got a yellow ribbon on my oak tree out front for my friend who is Recon - if anybody were to come onto my property and try to vandalize that ribbon, well, hell. Infringe on my rights to support my friend and miss the hell out of him, praying for his safety, and I'll infringe upon your rights to breathe without the difficulty of a deviated septum.
#2
Story has the whole package. Victimization, freedom of belief and expresion, oppressed background. In short, Ragsdale is all about herself. What a surprise.
#5
Carpinteria is a very nice and pleasant town. I've visited it alot while my wife went to school nearby. I am glad that the citizens ran her spoiled and misguided ass out. Doesn't matter what the cause excuse is, vandalism is vandalism. Better face your issues, Ragsie.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/16/2003 12:43 Comments ||
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#6
On the wall above her head when she watches TV is a picture she painted of a baboon's stem cell.
#7
I would have been fitting for residents that put up the ribbons to have lined up on the opposite side of the street and pelted Ragsdale with eggs as she skated on by......
#8
"...grinding poverty in a white ghetto on the south side of Chicago" Oh, God, Mayor Daley's gonna have a fit. FYI, if you've not been to the City of Big Shoulders, rest assured that "white ghettos" don't exist, folks. No. 2, and I'm really ticked off, the writer should know it's the South Side in upper case!!! No. 3, if she had tried that stunt in Bridgeport, maybe the "white ghetto" she's dreaming about, all of the cops, firemen, city plumbers, and other trade unionists of the neighborhood would have found an interesting place for her to put her blades. No. 4, what does one have to do to be considered a "bourgeois bohemian" Sounds like she enjoys tossing ferin' words around to impress herself and writer.
Posted by: Michael ||
04/16/2003 15:02 Comments ||
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#9
Aren't these vandalistic beauzeaux/moonbats just pathetic?
#10
Just one more example of why I immensely dislike many who call themselves "liberal". People such as this woman (-itch-) are pompous law breakers who rail against every one for not protecting their 'rights' while attempting to deny the rights of every one that disagrees with them.
IRNA -- An Indian separatist group could be pulling out of bases inside Bhutan and shifting to new locations along the border with Bangladesh, officials Wednesday said. The outlawed United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA), fighting for an independent homeland in the northeastern state of Assam, has been operating out of well-entrenched bases inside Bhutan. "It appears the ULFA have been relocating their bases from Bhutan to areas in the northeastern state of Meghalaya bordering Bangladesh," a senior Indian Border Security Force (BSF) official told IRNA. The reports of ULFA moving out of Bhutan has gained credence after security forces last week made two large hauls of arms and explosives in the West Garo Hill district of Meghalaya, a few kilometers from Islam's bloody the Bangladesh border. Surely just a coincidence...
"The arms consignments has reached Meghalaya by a non-conventional river route and heightens our suspicion that the ULFA has begun shifting their armory," the BSF official said requesting anonymity. Intelligence officials say the ULFA was under pressure from Bhutanese authorities to vacate their camps inside the Himalayan Kingdom after India's National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra last month met King Jigme Singhye Wangchuk.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:53 pm ||
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IRNA -- A Member of the Pakistani Parliament on Wednesday said unilateral aggression against Iraq evoked worldwide hatred against US-led allies. Amjad Warraich, Member of the National Assembly told 'IRNA' in an interview that US and its allies had become a symbol of hatred across the globe for their crimes against innocent Iraqi people. The ones we're still letting out of dungeons among them?
He called unilateral war as naked aggression, saying humanity would never forgive the invaders for their barbarism against men, women and children of Iraq. Amjad, a senior member of Pakistan Muslim League maintained that the unjust war would have far-reaching repercussions on political and economic set-up across the globe, particularly on the Persian Gulf and the Middle Eastern region. And it's not going to redound to Pakland's benefit...
Weeks before Iraq was invaded, unprecedented number of anti-war demonstrators had taken on streets in many countries, including the US, Britain, France, Germany, Iran and Pakistan, pleading for a peaceful solution to the Iraqi crisis. Actually, they weren't "pleading." They were waving signs and making faces and demanding to have their way. The ones in Pakland were screaming "jihad."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:49 pm ||
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#1
Their Local "Experts": blah blah blah america is evil blah blah blah jews are evil blah blah blah duuhhh blah blah blah
Infiltration is on the rise along the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir and the Army is considering fencing portions of the border to keep a check on the infiltration routes, Deputy Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen JBS Yadava said. He said despite international pressure on terrorists, Pakistan wants to increase the terrorist violence in J and K that is why more and more terrorists are being infiltrated into the state. "It is difficult to me to say exact number of terrorists being staged by Pakistan along LoC for pushing them into Jammu and Kashmir. But there are indications of increase in infiltrations," he said.
Hafiz Saeed's been out of jug for a while now, hasn't he? And they bumped off Abdul Majid Dar, which settled the discord in Hezbul Mujahedeen in the best Islamist manner, so now it's back to business as usual...
Defence experts and Army officials are studying the infiltration increase, he said adding they would soon analyse it. But at the same time, we would be fencing some portions of borderline along LoC, which are being used by terrorists as infiltration routes, he said adding infiltration is down along International Border in Jammu after it was fenced. He said terrorists are adopting new modus operandi, including use of night vision goggles, GPS system and anti-mine booters to infiltrate along the borders. It seems to me the lovely 1 Billion dollar grant and all the other debt relief that Dubya provided to Pakland is really coming in useful to provide the Pakis with much needed supplies for its civilian population.
The terrorist outfits recruiting local youth have also decreased during past six months, he said adding the strength of foreign mercenaries, mostly Pak-based terrorists have increased 60 per cent in Jammu and Kashmir.
Posted by: rg117 ||
04/16/2003 09:26 am ||
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#1
"It seems to me the lovely 1 Billion dollar grant and all the other debt relief that Dubya provided to Pakland is really coming in useful to provide the Pakis with much needed supplies for its civilian population." *rim shot*
#2
Dang man! Being a nice, ordinary (read gullible) American, I wanna believe there's maybe one significant Islamic leader who isn't smiling in our face and sticking a shiv in our side. But this kind of faith is getting hard to keep up. Somebody better tell Perv that we need to see some LeT bodies or his consecration is gonna be questioned.
Posted by: Scott ||
04/16/2003 16:16 Comments ||
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#3
Scott,
I'd like to see that too but there is more chance of finding Elvis. Perv is still getting a lot of flak from the fundos on his abandoning of the talib and supporting of the US. He's making up for it by giving them a green light On Kashmir. The US won't be pressuring him much on the matter either, they need him for Osama and frankly the Kashmir issues simply isn't that important for them. Except when Powell occasionally asks Pakland to 'discourage' terrorism.
BASRA, Iraq, April 16 -- The bookkeepers of the police state were meticulous. Payoffs to tribal leaders, quotas for cheering crowds on Saddam Hussein's birthday, long lists of "bonuses" paid to party members on every state occasion, reports on suspicious families and pro-Iranian Shiite "traitors" in their midst -- at the Mother of All Battles Branch of Iraq's ruling Baath Party, they wrote it all down. Here at the chief party headquarters for Iraq's second-largest city, near the party villas and the date palm groves and the decayed elegance of the Shatt al Arab waterway, officials kept a hand in nearly every aspect of daily life. They tracked thousands of army deserters and demanded still more recruits, they kept copious files on every comrade in their ranks, and they passed on intelligence warnings about spies and saboteurs. No detail was too small to escape the party's attention -- from making sure women turned up at a military parade to determining the location of machine guns for defense of local party buildings. Even the rotten condition of the cheese offered to student recruits in a paramilitary group came under the party's purview.
In the days before the fall of Baghdad, and the explosion of looting on the streets of the capital, a far more damaging form of looting was already under way as Iraqi bank accounts were ransacked and millions of dollars were transferred into private accounts abroad, Middle Eastern banking sources said yesterday. The flurry of transfers that have been spotted, going mainly through Europe to accounts in Jordanian and Palestinian banks, are thought to be the tip of a vast financial iceberg, kept afloat by Saddam Hussein, his family and his regime for more than two decades. US investigators are scrambling to track down the missing money, estimated at between $5bn and $40bn (£3.2m and £25.bn), but some financial experts believe much of it has gone for good, and may have slipped into the hands of extremist groups such as al-Qaida.
US troops have stormed buildings in their hunt for illegal weapons and fugitive members of Saddam Hussein's inner circle. In Baghdad, US special forces backed by about 40 marines armed with machine guns, raided the home of Rahib Taha, a microbiologist nicknamed Dr Germ by UN weapons inspectors. Three men emerged from the house with their hands up and the troops carried off several boxes of documents. Taha's whereabouts are not known.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 06:24 pm ||
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President George Bush says Saddam Hussein's regime has "passed into history" and is calling on the UN to lift economic sanctions against Baghdad. Mr Bush declared the military mission a success, without actually declaring the war over. "We were successful in making the world a more peaceful place," he said. "Thanks to the courage and might of our military, the American people are now secure," he said. "Thanks to the courage and might of our military, the Iraqi people are now free." Sanctions imposed on Iraq after its 1990 invasion of Kuwait have stunted Iraq's oil revenues, although the UN has permitted some oil sales to finance purchases of food and medicine. Since the reason for the sanctions is gone, the sanctions can now go. Watch the politix erupt, trying to keep them on...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 06:03 pm ||
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#1
I would love to hear any far-fetched excuses the sanctions should continue! I can imagine the first thing Chiraq will say is they must continue until Iraq has paid down its debts. After all, can't have Iraq rebuilding its infrastructure and economy while France goes unpaid for the Rolands and chemical- and biological-warfare equipment.
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 19:58 Comments ||
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AT AN AIR BASE IN KUWAIT, 16 April 2003 â People are curious about being embedded in the Marines. This is my effort to set the record straight. Some readers suspect I was subjected to propaganda while living with these men and women. There was no propaganda campaign. If there had been, there would have been no embeds. Journalists wrote their own stories, and made their own interview requests and interviews. The Marinesâ âPAOsâ (public affairs officers) would set up the meetings, but not oversee them.
ARABS?? Assuming propaganda is rampant in the press?? Say it 'aint so!!
Most significantly, throughout all these embed travels, I have met extraordinary young men and women â whose selflessness and determination still makes me marvel. It is this that made me think of the similarities between Marines and Arabs.
During our first incoming Iraqi bomb, when we were all supposed to be carrying our MOPP chemical protective suits, I â of course â was out walking, without my MOPP suit.
None of us knew what that first bomb was carrying when we ran to the bomb shelters, but we all feared chemical weapons. A young Marine female officer sat across from me in the bunker while everyone struggled into their MOPP suits.
âWhereâs your MOPP suit?â she asked me.
âI left it back at my tent,â I replied.
She looked at me, then thrust her MOPP suit at me, and said: âPut this on.â
âYouâre not supposed to give up your MOPP suit, Maâam,â I said, not knowing what else to say.
âPut it on,â she said. Then: âPUT IT ON!â
I had never seen this woman before. She didnât know who I was. We didnât know what was in that missile. But this woman risked her life for me. It was an incredible gesture of selflessness that still makes me wonder.
There have been so many other examples: The Marine who expressed concern when he saw how the rubber MOPP boots had chewed into my shins because I had no boot socks. He left and returned with three pairs of his own socks. I never learned his name, and never saw him again. But I wear his size 12 socks daily.
In regards to war, I have learned that Marines follow their orders. They are not responsible for war; those decisions are made in Washington. Many in my travels have expressed a genuine distaste for war.
While colonels have told me, behind closed doors, of their concern for the US foreign policy in the Middle East. Other Marines have expressed skepticism for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. This, I am told, are inside opinions that normally would not be heard off the base. Some tell me they hope these men will not be part of the second Bush administration. Almost all, however, trust President Bush. And Secretary of State Colin Powell.
Marines come from well-bred families; others join because they were living off the street. Some join to be educated, others to become part of a family. Some join because they simply âwant to be part of the best.â
Many of these young Marines donât know the difference between an Arab and an Asian. But a Chaplin told me that some of his hardest young Marinesâ hearts turned soft âup northâ as they witnessed the hard life and poverty Iraqi civilians and military live.
I am greatly concerned that this war has polarized many Arabs and Americans. Knowing these Marines, however, has given me hope for the future of America and its relationship with the Arab world.
#1
Knowing these Marines, however, has given me hope for the future of America and its relationship with the Arab world.
I'm not convinced. Given the Arab penchant for denial, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will claim that what is being heard and read about are simply all lies.
Come back when the Arab populace at large begins to take notice of these things.
#3
That's my hope. After years of being hammered on that Americans are evil by the likes of Hussein and the assahollah ayatollahs, this is a chance for the Iraqi at large to see what we're all about, instead of swallowing the typical mullah-originated bullshit.
IRNA -- The 35-member Local Committee of Karbala elected Mohammad Hussein Nasrullah as governor general of Karbala province, member of Islamic Amal Organization's political office Javad al-Attar told IRNA on Wednesday. Attar said that on public demand, the local committee reinstated the former governor general who was a lawyer. Ummm... Y'mean you put the crook who'd been in charge back in charge? You're having a hard time grasping this "liberation" thing, aren't you?"
He said that situation in Karbala is satisfactory adding that the people are awaiting the formation of an Iraqi Interim Administration (IIA). He said that the people are holding regular demonstrations demanding that an Iraqi undertake the interim administration soon rejecting foreign national to serve as Iraqi ruler. He said that staff of government offices and hospitals have been at their job adding that the hospital officials in Karbala complained about shortage of blood supply.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 03:40 pm ||
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We're going to have a mix of SCIRI types (Kut, parts of Baghdad) friendly Shiite clerics (Najaf - if we can release Sistani, parts of Baghdad) tribals (Basra, villages) exiles (Nasiriyah)ex-Baath (Karbala, Mosul?) Kurds (Kirkuk?)
It will take a while to sort out, and everyone is looking to create facts on the ground. We have to balance between letting baddies, especially those with outside support make to many "facts" and coming down too heavy-handed. We will also have to "divide and rule" eg use clerical rivalries among Shiites to our advantage. This will try our patience, but should be easier than Afghan - funnel reconstruction aid through central authority and dont give it to cities on "outside" of process. (thats why we need to be in control) To get into central process you have to give up local fiefdoms - this should work better here, where ultimate triumph of central control is sure than in afghan.
A leader of the Supreme Assembly of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SAIRI), Abdelaziz Hakim, arrived here Wednesday to the cheers of local residents of this southern Iraqi city. "Hurrah! Hurrah! It's an ayatollah! Let's cut somebody's head off to celebrate!"
The spokesman of SAIRI and Abdelaziz's son, SonnyMohsen Hakim, told IRNA in a telephone conversation that SAIRI head uncleAyatollah Mohammad Baqer al-Hakim will also be coming to Iraq very soon. "Yep. We-all's in the religion bidnid. It's a family affair!"
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 02:00 pm ||
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More succinct than The Guardian's assessment, but the same idea...
IRNA -- The first summit attended by members of the various Iraqi opposition groups, US officials and military commanders held in a military base in Nassiriya ended in failure on Tuesday. "Yep. A flop. Might as well have stayed home..."
According to IRNA correspondents, except for a 13-point statement and an agreement to meet again 10 days later, the summit achieved no agreement on issues of contention. Nuttin'. Zilch. Zippo. Why was that, you ask?
It was boycotted by the Supreme Assembly of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SAIRI) as well five other main nut dissident groups. According to Abdolaziz Hakim, a leading member of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution, the council did not participate in the summit because they couldn't have their way it was intended to enforce US dominance and hegemony over any other foreign state in the future affairs of Iraq. The summit ended with participants agreeing to hold another summit ten days later, according to IRNA's correspondents. Outside the summit's venue, thousands of Iraqis held a demonstration carrying banners protesting the Iraqi opposition members meeting inside as not being clergymen the real representatives of the people. Unless we come down hard on SAIRI and the other armed groups, we're going to continue having trouble with them. You heard it here first, even though it doesn't take 20-20 vision to see it.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:45 pm ||
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Agreed, and it'll take disabling Iranian influence to do it
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 16:15 Comments ||
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I sometimes wonder how we get anything done, given the constant level of sharpshooting going on against us...
Lawrence Smallman
What does the United States want Iraq to look like in 2010? It will spend billions of Iraqi dollars on the post war reconstruction, but will it look to short or long term interests? If it considers long term interests, then the US will have to spend billions of its own dollars in rebuilding Iraq. The fear is that the US will fall into recent practice and offer dysfunctional minimal assistance for short term gain. It is well known throughout the political world that the US does not have a very good track record after winning wars, according to the Washington Post. He means that's what WaPo reporters tell each other over brie and white wine...
The never-ended Korean War and Americaâs hurried exit from the CIA's covert war in Afghanistan in the 1980s are examples of US failures to end a conflict in a way that meets both short and long-term national interests. Korean War ended in an armistice. North Korea's a Stalinist dictatorship. We were supposed to rebuild it? The South, on the other hand, scrabbled its way out of the war's devastation while we stood guard — and invested. We weren't involved in Afghanistan except as sponsors in the war against the Sovs. Since a somewhat more severe set of problems existed at that time than prevail in Afghanistan today, I'm glad we weren't involved. I guess the WaPo lunch crowd doesn't think that way, huh?
The willingness of the US to allow the UN to administer (or try to administer) reconstruction in Afghanistan after their invasion in 2001 was a convenient way of avoiding direct responsibility for Afghanistanâs current lack of investment. Oh, yeah. We did that on purpose. Nobody said, "Let the UN do it". Nobody accused the U.S. of invading Afghanistan for commercial gain. Did they?
US unwillingness to allow the UN to administer rebuilding in Iraq, however, doesnât give a sense of what US administration plans may be. It gives a sense of what we think of the jobs the UN has done in the past, however...
Over the last 40 years, the United States has typically focused on short-term interests, and failed to take into account the consequences of not footing the bill. The notable exception has been the reconstruction of post war Japan under the military administration of General Douglas MacArthur and the post war reconstruction of Europe, initiated by Secretary of State George Marshall (The Marshall Plan). In both cases, the United States led the effort, concentrating on setting up a framework for economic recovery, and governance acceptable to the West. These frameworks enabled both countries to be economically, politically and socially integrated into the international community. I think we've already announced that that's what we intend for Iraq. Hasn't this guy been listening? What will cause us not to follow through? Islamic nut cases screaming "Death to the Great Satan" in the streets, taking potshots at our troops, and resolutely refusing to behave like civilized human beings. This is Iraq's big chance to become the pearl of the Middle East. So far, only SAIRI's overtly trying to blow it, but others will hop on board once the fires are out and the bodies are cold.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:18 pm ||
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#1
Urrgh. So let me get this straight. In the past, we supposedly cut and run after removing a threat in a particular country (say, Afghanistan) and didn't think about a "long-term" commitment. Right. Well, we weren't interested in "occupying" them and telling them how to run their countries. That's what we're supposed to do right? But no; that lead to a lot of messes. So we need to have a long-term plan, like we did in Japan and Germany after WWII. Well, that amounted to several years of outright occupation and a military government before power was handed over (with an American-drafted constitution in Japan's case) to civilian control. So we have to stay engaged over the long term and ensure stability, security, reconstruction and a clean transition to democracy, but we're not allowed to "occupy" a country or in any way dictate terms to the Iraqis. We can't leave, but we can't stay either. So what the hell is it we're supposed to do? As Homer Simpson once told Bart and Lisa (if memory serves): "Kids, you tried your hardest and didn't succeed. The lesson is, never try."
As Baghdad turned near-normal, and almost all of Iraq has come under the control of US-led forces, arrangements are being made to have a dollar-driven multilple currency system. The dinar, issued by the Saddam Hussein government, would also be valid tender until a new unit is introduced, two US officials said on Wednesday. The two officials are assessing the economy for the US-led administration that will rule Iraq for a while. They said the new administration would start to pay Iraqi civil servants a $20 per head emergency payment and could repeat such payments as necessary. "This is not an issue of dollarising the economy, but to get money into desperate peoples' hands," one of the officials said. As the previous government had failed to publish any statistics or records, their best estimate was that 1.5 million to 2.5 million Iraqis worked for the government. The total population is estimated at 26 million. "We're talking about most working people. They will be entitled to get an emergency payment of $20, in dollars," one official said. Ten percent of the population works for the gummint? No wonder Iraq's such a hothouse of innovation...
Payments will go to Iraqis who are able to identify themselves as civil servants. The United States will partly use $1.7 billion in seized Iraqi assets for the $20 emergency payments, for salaries once they resume and to build up foreign exchange reserves. The officials said the introduction of more dollars into the economy and its use with other currencies â the euro and the currencies of neighbouring Syria, Jordan and Kuwait among others â was not likely to cause a cycle of inflation, even if the value of the old Iraq currency fell. Like to waste paper levels?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:06 pm ||
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#1
They should cash in the old dinars for new ones, hold for 21 days, then resell as toilet paper.
#3
Kind of sums up the whole thing in the middle east: paying crazies to blow themselves up along with a few Americans, and paying them in American dollars. I notice also that people world wide would rather have dollars tucked away for an emergency than francs or even deutch marks.
Mishaan Al-Juburi, an Iraqi Arab Sunni and self-appointed leader in Mosul, told Al Jazeera that Mosul has been relatively calm this morning, after yesterdayâs shootings that resulted in 17 deaths. âI think we had only one problem today. When some people tried to rob a bank, an exchange of fire took place between them and the police. Three thieves were killed. That is all, otherwise the city is fine,â he said. Oh, corpses! Corpses can be good...
Earlier, Al Jazeera TVâs Waddah Khanfar had reported popular resentment at Al-Juburiâs appointment. However, the governor criticised these claims. âThis news is an exclusive invention of Al Jazeera. I was among the protesters yesterday, I was trying to calm them as they were throwing stones on American soldiers. What happened was that the US commander moved from the airport to the Governorâs palace and when the people saw US troops entering their city and raising the American flag, they became angry and started throwing stones on them,â he explained. âI am not the governor of Mosul. I am the one who liberated it, and preserved its security. I enjoy a warm relationship with the people of Mosul. The proof of this is in the fact that many have come to me for their needs.â He liberated it, did he? And he just has a lot of friends, y'know. People come to him for their needs. He's just a businessman. His right hand is named Genco, though Genco's getting on in years. His sons are Sonny, Fredo, and Michael...
Blaming the US for the violence in Mosul today and yesterday, he said âthe Americans committed a strategic mistake. I was forced to take my place with my people, and leave the building and find myself a different headquarters. We left the Governorâs complex for the American ruler. The tension is between people and the American ruler, and I have nothing to do with it.â "They kicked me out of the governor's mansion! Can you believe they did that? Cheeze!"
Al-Juburi is keen to promote a positive image and emphasised that Mosul is safe. âElectricity is back, drinking water is available, and police and traffic police are doing their work properly. I am near the civil defence department, and the fire fighters have nothing to do, because we have put down fires. The university resumed its activity, the ministry of education will begin its work again next Saturday.â "I dip my beak a little, sure, but everybody's happy..."
Talking tough, he also gave a warning to the United States. âIt is not the right time to attack the Americans yet. They have to realize that people were happy to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but will never accept the US in Iraq. If the Americans ignore that, I think they are committing a big error.â "For now, they're the pezzonovantes, so I keep my head down. But someday..."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 01:02 pm ||
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News Flash, shopping has broken out in Baghdad!
On Yasser Arafat Street, one of Baghdadâs busiest shopping areas, the shops are open and shopkeepers are scrubbing the street and sidewalks outside them. Fruit and vegetable markets are bustling, and families are out promenading with smiles on their faces. The local barbers, too, are open for business and Arab News walked in on Mohammed Al-Saâali, who was enjoying his first haircut since the war started. âIâm getting my haircut to celebrate Saddamâs demise and the beginning of a new era,â he declared. Ironically, a picture of the former Iraqi dictator was still hanging on the wall a few meters away from him.
In the Abu Ghorab district on the outskirts of Baghdad, the mother of all flea markets has been set up, and those who looted the capitalâs government and other buildings are selling their booty â cigarettes, furniture, sportswear lingerie â at knockdown prices. Nike sneakers were being sold for $2. There is also a huge black market in gasoline. Saddamâs army had massive gasoline reserves and in some areas of Baghdad locals are filling their containers with it and selling it at massively inflated prices. In the Rumadi area 120 miles west of Baghdad, a group of the townâs imams, led by Imam Ali Zeleami, came to a cease-fire agreement with coalition troops, whereby the troops will occupy only the outskirts of the mostly calm area. Security at the Palestine Hotel in central Baghdad has been beefed up in reaction to an ambush staged two days ago by four Iraqi sympathizers of Saddam Hussein. At 6 a.m. yesterday, a fleet of helicopters circled above in what the US military described as âa routine security operationâ. Cars are no longer allowed to park near the hotel, which is home to most of the foreign journalists in the capital, and US Marines are redirecting the ocean of human traffic away from it.
The capital still lacked power, water and medical care yesterday, and troops were turning their attention to that as well as the question of law and order. A group calling itself the Gathering for Democracy issued printed statements urging fellow Iraqis to stop looting public facilities. Groups of Marines were on foot patrol in some neighborhoods, some with children tagging along, and as many as 1,000 Iraqi policemen showed up for joint Iraqi-US patrols. Dressed in full uniform, the Iraqi police are patrolling the city in 10 different fleets in groups of four. Sixteen of them are helping the US military with security at Al-Andalus Square. âMost are concerned about the looting and the security of the neighborhoods,â officer Yusuf Al-Qubasi told Arab News. âWe are understaffed, but it is our duty to try and bring order back to Baghdad.â When asked if he and his fellow officers would fight Saddamâs Fedayeen alongside the US military, he said that he had not yet been asked to do so, but depending on the circumstances âI might have toâ.
Yusuf, thugs with guns are a police responsibility, unless you happen to need artillery support...
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 11:41 am ||
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#1
great article from an unlikely source - but they still got some things wrong
"The capital still lacked power, water and medical care yesterday"
Even the BBC said 2/3rds (NOT ALL) hospitals are still not fully functioning. Centcom reports at least some parts of Baghdad have sporadic water and power.
#5
The origin of those antiquities' bid lets (on eBay) will be France and Russia. No, no, what am I thinking. Make that NYC.
Posted by: Scott ||
04/16/2003 15:39 Comments ||
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#6
If anybody sees those cheaply priced antiquities PLEASE notify somebody in authority who will buy them to return to the museums after normality has been established.
It really was a tragedy that Museum was looted and will leave a sour taste for the world.
Why give unneccessary ammo to the hate-America crowd? Make every effort to restore the antiquities: do the right thing, even WE can help with that by keeping our eyes out on ebay.
For three days, American tanks have been shelling a military intelligence building in the posh Al-Khathamia area in west Baghdad. The dozen or so tanks are not here to pound intransigent fighters but to break down concrete beams and steel, to reach bunkers deep underground at the Al-Istikhbarat Al-'Askariya facility. The Marines found 123 prisoners, including five women, barely alive in an underground warren of cells and torture chambers. Being trapped underground probably kept them safe from the bombing of Baghdad by the coalition.
Severely emaciated, some had survived by eating the scabs off their sores. All the men had beards down to their waists, said onlookers. Most looked absolutely dazed when they emerged, said Mr Sadoun Mohamed, 37, who lives in the area.
'They had not seen sunlight for a long time,' he said. 'They kept blinking and covering their faces.' He said they were taken to the Saddam Hospital for treatment. Their names were posted on the walls of the Al-Hajabehia Mosque in west Baghdad, as were names of some 40 others known to have been executed or murdered in prison. Hundreds of anxious locals wait for word of their family, relatives and friends, some of whom were taken away more than 10 years ago.
Outside Al-Istikhbarat Al-'Askariya, Mr Sadeq Al Saeed, 24, a construction worker, has been waiting sleepless for the last 36 hours. He said he had heard the facility had five levels below ground. He said his father, an Iraqi army captain, was killed in 1991 during the first Gulf War, and his cousins Amer and Jasem and some 50 others were picked out by the secret police for chanting anti-Saddam slogans during the funeral procession. 'That was the last I saw of them,' he said. 'In the night, people raided their houses, blindfolded them and took them away.' He hopes against hope that the Marines will be able to find his cousins, who were brought here to be interrogated.
This hellhole is believed to be one of many for Iraq's political prisoners. Thousands may still be behind bars though the regime released many criminals from prisons before the war. The United States soldiers at Al-Istikhbarat Al-'Askariya would not say what they were doing there. Their tanks blocked the entrance. This place could be part of the labyrinth of underground facilities which might still shelter regime members. More than 24 bunkers were identified 12 years ago. There may be more now, located under schools, hospitals, even mosques, and linked together. The security police, or Da'irat Al-Mukhabbarat Al-'Amma; Iraqi Intelligence Service; and military intelligence, also built cells and tunnels underground. Taxi driver Hathem Ejam, 36, said Mr Saddam's older son Uday, also used them for his harem discards. Relaying widely-believed rumours, he said: 'He would pick any young girl he liked from the street, rape her, shave her head bald and then get his guards to dump her in an underground cell.' Funny that this isn't getting more press coverage. -Steve
How many other prisons will we find, possibly too late? Remind me again why the anti-war crowd think they support the Iraqi people? -Frank G.
Posted by: Frank G & Steve ||
04/16/2003 09:14 am ||
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#1
Buchenwald (Germany) and Workuta (Soviet Union)
#2
C'mon guys! Don't start projecting all this Saddam stuff on the sewage treatment plant in Baghdad. Those little protozoa and rotofers are just doing a nasty job that has fallen upon their lot. Heh heh.....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/16/2003 10:44 Comments ||
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#3
ah - *nods*
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 10:55 Comments ||
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#4
In fake news today, Hollywood spokesman Tim Robbins, after hearing of the release of 123 Iraqi prisoners by US Marines, fired off an e-mail to President Bush which says, "Dammit! Knock it off!"
#5
So, Murat, how's that indignation over the "American invasion" doing? Still going strong? I suppose those with your mind-set may come up with a way to infer the US put those people down there to subsist on scabbrous peelings. Saddam was/is a goddamned monster - I REPEAT: Nothing the US has done in Iraq or can conceivably do there will EVER EVER EVER compare to what Saddam and his regime have done to their own people. They were in his keeping, in his trust, and he slaughtered them.
#6
...they were taken to the Saddam Hospital for treatment.
Need to do something about that name. It should be all but eliminated from Iraq over the next year. The only place it should be left is over a sewer treatment facility - "Saddam Personal Waste" Facility.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 9:32 Comments ||
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#7
I can imagine how these guys are feeling. More than all of you ever could.
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 10:11 Comments ||
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#9
I lived on the economy my first tour in Germany, in the early 1970's. My landlady's husband was released from a SOVIET Prisoner of War camp in October, 1958, just two months before he died. Compare to the United States releasing all but political (I.E., NAZI) prisoners in 1945. Very few Americans know about that kind of SOVIET behavior. There is still considerable resentment in Germany against Russia and its many forms, just from such things as this.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 14:20 Comments ||
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#10
How many Germans ended up in the gulags after the disaster at Stalingrad? How many were never seen again?
#11
The Soviets actually turned Buchenwald into a concentration camp again, shortly after the Americans moved out of Thuringia. Some people went there twice.
Members of the U.S. Army's vaunted 4th Infantry Division engaged in combat Wednesday for the first time since the Vietnam War, fighting Iraqi paramilitaries and armed men in civilian clothes near an airfield north of the capital. Additional support - about 20 tanks and 35 Bradley fighting vehicles — was en route to the airstrip after the Iraqis began shooting at Americans clearing the field. No American casualties were reported in the skirmishes. "Mostly we're just destroying their equipment as we secure the airfield," said Col. Don Campbell, commander of the 4th Infantry's 1st Brigade. As of midday, he said, U.S. forces had destroyed a truck, three anti-aircraft guns and two surface-to-air missile systems near the airfield. "We've encountered six to eight paramilitaries, but we think there will be more when we get to the airfield," Campbell said. The fighting came after elements of the 4th pushed through Baghdad overnight and set up near the airfield after 40 straight hours on the road from southern Iraq.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 08:31 am ||
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This is a re-run from yesterday...
At least seven Iraqis were killed by U.S. forces during a violent demonstration in the northern city of Mosul on Tuesday, a U.S. official at Central Command in Qatar said on Wednesday. Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said demonstrators fired at marines and special operations forces near a government building the Americans had occupied in the center of the city. "Fire was directed at the marines and special operations forces in this complex. It was aimed fire and aimed fire was returned against some of the demonstrators, against some of the agitators climbing the wall of the compound. It was lethal fire," he told a daily news conference.
That's military talk for "we weren't screwing around with those pinheads."
He said at least seven people were killed and a number wounded. Hello Joe, I guess you are asking yourself now, how it is possible that the news appears now while it was know yesterday too. Here you have it from Reuters, albeit in a censured half truth version without mentioning shooting into the crowds and the hundreds of wounded.
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 07:29 am ||
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#1
Frank you seem to like that Armenian hoax genocide, question how many Armenians died then? hundred, thousand, million, zillion?
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 10:17 Comments ||
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#2
It's amazing how this Murat guy seems to be fixated on this one incident, almost to the point of obsession.
Apparently, this one incident now outweighs everything else that has been done. Maybe Murat should go work for the media; he thinks just like they do.
#3
Murat: This is not being hidden by US media. It was reported on the radio on my way to work. You really have no idea how open a society this is, do you?
#4
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not reason with trolls.
Do not waste Fred's server's memory with trolldom.
It is as productive as dialoging with Kimmie.
That is all. Out.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/16/2003 10:55 Comments ||
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#5
Nando Times (requires free registration) has a story on this incident that indicates there is considerable confusion about what happened in Mosul both yesterday and today. I'm beginning to wonder if we're seeing Iraqis using US uniforms in Mosul to see how much trouble they can stir up. The key in the Nando Times article is "an Iraqi ambulance with loudspeakers" arriving. Then this, later:
"Tensions have been high in Mosul, a city of 700,000 people where Arabs and Kurds are highly suspicious of each other. Many of the area's Arabs also have a strong affinity for nearby Syria, which has drawn intense criticism in recent days from Washington."
The action seems to center around the local Governor General's offices - I.E., where the local Ba'ath party aparatus operated. Apparently, the local Iraqi citizenry (probably Shia) and the Kurds are both wondering what kinds of files might be hiding somewhere.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 11:00 Comments ||
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#6
You're right about feeding the trolls, Paul, but occasionally we can get an actual debate going with Murat. It's good to have some dialog representing opposing views instead of dwelling in our own world where we can continually congratulate each other on being right.
On the other hand, there are bona fide trolls like "Anonymo" from yesterday that should most definitely be ignored.
Thank God it hasn't become too extreme yet, or Fred may need to implement some registration process or (*shudder*) shut down the blog all together!
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 11:03 Comments ||
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#7
"Fire was directed at the marines and special operations forces in this complex. It was aim fire and aim fire was returned against some of the demonstrators, against some of the agitators climbing the wall of the compound. It was lethal fire" - Maybe some of your foreign-fighter friends Murat?
#8
If Rooters can't even put an anti-American spin on the story, then there obviously isn't one to be found.
Posted by: John Phares ||
04/16/2003 8:02 Comments ||
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#9
Well, Murat, I have to concede one to you. I insinuated that you made this story up or heard it on Al Jazeera, but, evidently, it was reported by Reuters. Based on your previous posts, however, I have to think you are eager to see such stories and more eager still to gloat over them. And I wouldn't be surprised if you forwarded to this site allegations that were sketchy at best. That said, you raise an interesting question about why this wasn't reported immediately after it happened. My guess is you suspect a U.S. military/government cover up. That could be true, though it would be stupid, because incidents like this will be discovered. Is it your belief that the Marines indiscriminately started shooting into the crowd with little or no provocation and that Reuters is a stooge of the U.S. government. If so, I refer you back to the article I mentioned. I'm willing to believe someone got jumpy, or there was some kind of miscommunication. But if you're hinting at genocide or something like it, I don't buy it. I think it's more likely someone shot at the Marines. Do I think the Marines can do no wrong? No. But I will never believe they just decided on a whim to pop off a bunch of innocent civilians.
Posted by: joe ||
04/16/2003 8:04 Comments ||
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#10
Hey Moor-Rat,
I know it's hard to wrap that brain of yours around, but ACCUSATIONS are not the same as FACT. I know, I know, does not compute in a country that jails a 15 year old boy for saying the word "Kurds".
Another item you may wish to pontificate upon...is the strange concept of cause and effect as in: when US marines are fired upon in a war zone they WILL fire back. I know that's not as sporting as picking off Kurdish or Armenian civilians, but that's the way we do things. Sorry about that.
I guess you're so busy criticizing the US government because if you criticize your own you'll be beaten or tortured or jailed or something. We welcome your criticism in OUR LANGUAGE, typed on a computer OF OUR MAKING, using a technology OF OUR DESIGN. Better that you spew your hatred here than have you on a Baghdad bound bus on a mission to save your porn-star idol "Omar Studdif".
Meanwhile, maybe you can answer the following: Cyprus, Armenia, Kurds...
#11
"Fire was directed at the marines and special operations forces in this complex. It was aim fire and aim fire was returned against some of the demonstrators"
So, there was aim fire, thus marines fire on demonstrators. I am dumb you guys are smart, how comes that no GI is wounded by "lethal" aim fire while there are a dozen of deaths and hundreds of wounded in the crowds?
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 8:15 Comments ||
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#12
Because our guys have body armor, helmets, and armored vehicles for cover--not soft cover like women and children. Plus, our guys are all very familiar with the shooting range and depend on their skills instead of Allah.
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 8:20 Comments ||
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#13
Maybe your jihadi friends can't hit the broadside of a barn from 10 paces. Nothing like the finest training certified by Al Qaeda...
#14
"State Department, his prime foe, recently leaked an internal report which concluded that Mr Chalabi had little support, even in his own Shia community"
the press which keeps repeating this, doesnt seem to have any idea how the federal govt works. There is no indication of who did this report, who requested it, or at what level. Some low level bureaucrat could have decided on their own to write this at lunch hour, and then "leaked" it to the press as "an internal State Dept report" (well it sure as hell aint an external report!) Now maybe theres more to it than that, but theres no evidence that it is, from the reports Ive seen.
#15
Nice try Dar, but the US spokesman said: "There were protesters outside, 100 to 150, there was fire, we returned fire. We didn't fire at the crowd, but at the top of the building. There were at least two gunmen. I don't know if they were killed. The firing was not intensive but sporadic, and lasted up to two minutes."
Well I guess the guys are very familiar with shooting, they manage to kill dozens in the crowds by sheer firing on rooftops, brilliant skills indeed!
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 8:41 Comments ||
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#16
Gee, Murat, you're right--if they were firing at the rooftop, how did those people in the crowd get shot? Must have been shot by the gunmen trying to spray the Americans! We've already seen how indiscriminate they are in their use of women and children as shields. Nothing like shooting a few innocents wherever there are Americans nearby so you can blame the Americans.
Really, Murat, who has more to gain by killing and wounding civilians--the Americans, or the Islamic paramilitary trash?
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 8:56 Comments ||
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#17
Yeah sure Dar, I guess the Iraqis gain by shooting their own kin, the sharpshooting skillfull hillbillies have smart amunition don't they.
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 9:11 Comments ||
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#18
The AK-47 is a spray-and-pray weapon.
They do gain by killing civilians and blaming Americans, though. This is not a new tactic.
#19
Yes Dishman, like all those women and children shot at checkpoints by marines with AK-47 weapons.
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 9:28 Comments ||
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#20
"Shooting their own kin"? Christ, Murat, how ignorant can you be? Saddam and his boys have NEVER had any qualms about raping, torturing, or executing their own "kin"! And how do we know the gunmen weren't Syrian, Palestinian, or some other import who grew up on a diet of your jihad propaganda?
I fully concede that the Americans have hurt innocents in this war, and, as I was not there to see this incident, I can not claim with 100% certainty that all of those people were not hurt by Americans.
Yet, you were not there either, and you can't claim that all of them were hurt by Americans either.
You still did not answer my question, Murat: who has the most to gain by shooting innocents? The Americans, who rely on public support and international goodwill to support their efforts, or the Islamic paramilitary who want the Americans out and to give us a black eye in the world press?
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 9:45 Comments ||
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#21
I have said it before, and I will say it again, Saddam and his regime have imprisoned, tortured, slaughtered and beaten down more of the Iraqui people, his own people whom he was supposed to protect and lead (that is what rulers are supposed to do, you know), his own population to whom he owed much better service than was rendered (leading a people means you have a responsibility towards that people - a responsibility he apparently told to piss off out the back) - he and his did far more damage to that country's inhabitants than our military would ever conceive of perpetrating. How many children have we thrown in jail for not joining the Fedayeen youth? For that matter, how many teenagers have we thrown in jail recently for being respectfully proud of their own heritage?
One other question: our marines use AK-47's? Really.
The obverse (inverse? converse?) of that question is who has the most to gain from attributing casualties to the American forces? Perhaps back-stabbing allies who did their darndest to delay and obstruct the war effort in the first place (see Turkey, France, Germany).
As to Murat's comment regarding the checkpoint shootings, the difference is that the Marines actually hit what they were shooting at. Unfortunately, it was a non-compliant vehicle. One would not expect Murat to grasp the subtle and complex point that upholding that precedent (e.g. shooting vehicles that did not stop) may ultimately have saved lives by invalidating the suicide bombers' strategy of bum-rushing checkpoints with civilians as shields.
Hey Murat - I thought we'd agreed on a protocol that you would post with subjects in all capitals so we would know when to scroll past? I don't need to waste my time on your piffle. please post all caps, ok?
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 9:58 Comments ||
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#24
Shooting on the crowd and blaming the Americans is exactly the sort of situation that the gunmen wanted to create.
And Murat is precisely the kind of person they wanted to fool.
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 10:07 Comments ||
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#26
Murat, you are a facist piece of shit. I will never offer anything other than insults in reply to your posts since your own posts are nothing more than blatant manipulations of matters meant to insult the rest of us. Get a heart and an education you immoral wretch.
#27
Dar, agree with your last post, I was not there to see it with my own eyes, but delibrately hiding the news as some US media are trying which surfaces only by efforts of the AFP doesn't make the US very reliable, too much censorship which covers up piles of shhhht like this.
You make an assertion of Iraqis shooting their own kin, it would make sense if they controlled the media, they don't, they are the ones occupied with the US censoring, where once in a while some AL Jazeera or AFP reporter can slip uncovering what is beeing hided for the public forcing centcom to fabricate some amateurishly story about selfdefence, shooting at rooftops (that causes hundreds of wounded).
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 10:10 Comments ||
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#28
Dar---I have been thinking about what you said, and there is some good about Murat's rants. It does bring out the best in us, as we try to reason with him. It does force us to look inward at our motives---good self examination. So the balance is positive, as long as we don't blow the server. Boy, ole Murat is a force, er, posting multiplier, heh heh. Now anonymo, he is just a foamer......
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/16/2003 12:59 Comments ||
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#29
"Frank you seem to like that Armenian hoax genocide, question how many Armenians died then? hundred, thousand, million, zillion?"
Ha! "Hoax"! Best one yet, Murat.
1.5 million Armenians murdered is what I've read.
But...oh, look.... Murat's long gone.
#30
Hundreds of wounded? C'mon Murat, you can do better than that.
Our guys took fire from the crowd and from some snipers. What were they supposed to do - allow themselves to get killed?
Today Mosul is quiet. Putting the fear of God into the bad guys and the locals may have done everyone some good. Sometimes you just have to show folks who's boss.
Where are the weapons of mass destruction?
The real question might be, "Were there ever any"? Not a single confirmed finding has been made of weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, or nuclear, the supposed existence of which was the formal, casus belli and, as the heart of UN resolution 1441, the sole legal justification for the war. Uhm, ehh, they are in Syria, yes ehhh, sounds reasonable ehh, doesn't it? Yes George, very convincing!
Colin Powell presented questionable material to the UN Security Council in February. Spy satellite images of a "weapons site" before and after a UN inspectors' visit were taken weeks apart. And the US now admits that intelligence material "proving" Iraq acquired fissile material from Africa was forged by a Western intelligence agency, possibly MI6 or Mossad. The obvious question is: if President Saddam had such weapons, why didn't he use them? Because we have the MOAB! Yes George, that must be the reason.
Where is Saddam?
There are many rumours, including that he has fled to Belarus and that he is living in an elaborate system of tunnels beneath his Baghdad palaces. We know such tunnels existed â the Iraqis boasted of them â and Saddam Hussein would not imprison himself in a palace with no means of escape. Amid all the stories of Saddam "doubles", it should be remembered that many Iraqi men look like him â they cultivated his moustache. There is no solid evidence that a double has ever appeared. His televised trip around the city 12 days ago was the real thing, two witnesses said. They recognised his left-cheek carbuncle. Well he shaved his mustache (Al Sahaf is using it now), our soldiers have no pictures of Saddam without mustache!
He was not killed in the bombing of the Mansur area of Baghdad. Fourteen bodies were recovered, all civilians. No no no, that where Fedayeen disguised as civilians!
Do iraqis feel liberated? Yes of course, those who don't are civilians Saddams Fedayeen.
Is Chalabi just a crooked US stooge?
The CIA, with the State Department, his prime foe, recently leaked an internal report which concluded that Mr Chalabi had little support, even in his own Shia community. In Iraq, the document insisted, he is regarded as a carpetbagger rather than a saviour. But his supporters at the Pentagon and at the Vice- President's office see him in a different light. For admirers such as Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, he is a convinced democrat and moderniser. They give very little heed to the allegations of financial impropriety. No no no, but we'll make sure he is voted democratic way with 99% of the votes.
Is North Korea next on the american hitlist? "Do they have oil?" No George! "OK, we don't think N.Korea posseses a great danger yet, first Iran!"
Did the allies stick to the Geneva conventions?
The Geneva Conventions specifically refer to pillage and the rights of "protected persons". The ban on "pillage" even occurs in the 1907 Hague Convention. "Protected" persons include those in the presence of warring parties â so bombing civilians at the restaurant in Mansur is a clear breach of the Conventions. The US admitted it knew Mansur was a residential area and that an attack would not be a "risk-free venture". But it bombed anyway. Geneva what?
Are the rebuilding contracts going to White House cronies?
The financial prize is huge: a programme that might involve up to $100bn (£60bn) of work, from repairing and modernising the country's oil industry to overhauling its infrastructure and setting up decent schools, hospitals and a public administration. It is proving very contentious. The US seems to be operating on the principle of "to the victor the spoils". The first reconstruction contracts are being awarded by the USAid development agency, which answers to the State Department, as an emergency measure. US firms have a head start and even British companies are being squeezed out. Ehh, sorry Tony excuse me I have bussiness to do.
Was the war legal?
Depends on who you ask. The American view is that Iraq was in breach of so many UN resolutions that military action was overdue and, if the UN was not prepared to authorise it, Washington was free to act. As legal as it can get, isn't it right Tony. Don't worry we'll ship a few C17 with chemicals and dump them in the dessert, let Saddam prove he isn't the owner.
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 05:28 am ||
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#1
If everyone ignores Murat like we did that troll Anonomo yesterday, I'll bet he goes away.
#2
U.S. forces have found numerous delivery systems. Artillery shells and warheads for missiles. All of these were supposed to be destroyed. The actual WMD's will be harder to find and would have been easier for the Iraq's to either give away (the real danger) or dispose of. This is kinda like finding a Gun but no bullets on a person that is not supposed to have weapons. The gun is useless without the bullets so is he now innocent?
#3
1) If Saddam didn't have any WMD why didn't he fully cooperate with the inspectors? Why did he risk the war he knew he would lose?
2) Maybe that shock and awe wasn't that useless? Maybe the command structure was annihilated to a point that no one who could have used them would have dared to (or could not). Maybe Saddam (if he was still in charge) knew that using WMD against well protected US troops was rather pointless but would have been met with overwhelming response?
3) Where is Saddam? Gone. That's all that really matters. Although seeing him dangling upside down from a Baghdad lamppost would have been a nice picture,
4) Do Iraqis feel liberated? They certainly don't miss Saddam. They will have to work hard though to gain true freedom.
5) Chalabi: If the Iraqis don't want him there isn't much the Pentagon can do about it. That's democracy. Or will be.
6) North Korea? That country is a historic anachronism. Not without danger but as the saying goes: dogs that bark too much don't bite. Or is that "eat bark"?
7) Geneva Conventions? There has been negligence indeed (the museum and hospital looting are saddening), but the conventions apply to willful violations. The Hague conventions don't apply as there was still fighting going on in the area. Al Mansur is not a violation of the conventions if the US had good reason to believe that Saddam and other Iraqi leaders would be taken out. You could even argue that the succesful bombing would have minimized further civilian casualties. There is no such thing as "risk-free" bombing and the conventions don't demand this either.
8) Rebuilding is not a job done in a few weeeks, but years. There will be enough to do for many companies.
9) Maybe the legality of war (by UN standards) was less important than the necesity of the war. Kosovo was not authorized by the Security Council either (nobody asked because Russia would have vetoed). The war is going to end decades of suffering for the Iraqi people. The world watched the humanitarian catastrophe in Iraq for years. I don't think the US will plant evidence. Sooner or later somebody would talk. That no WMD have been found yet rather indicates that the US does everything as correctly as possible. Once the Iraqi scientists talk things will come out. To believe that Saddam destroyed all his weapons in 1991 before the UN came in and didn't bother to collect the evidence for this distruction is ridiculous.
#4
TGA, why put so much effort in countering the troll?
Murat, if we changed Hussein to Occlan (sp.), would your response be different? Just remember: we control the supplies and logistics for your military, I do hope that you know what consequences that has.
Posted by: Brian ||
04/16/2003 7:04 Comments ||
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#5
Murat, you need to read the following:
http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350&CID=1051-041403A
You live in the fantasy world this author is referring to. I don't pretend the U.S. is right in everything it has done, but your views are beyond twisted. I assume you are an adult. How can your critical reasoning be so severely impaired? You're not an Islamist, are you? By the way, Murat, what became of the story about the U.S. soldiers killing ten civilians in Mosul? I haven't seen it anywhere else? The Iraqi minister of information is sorely missed by many of us who watched him make a complete ass of himself with his wild-eyed version of the "truth." You could get your own televised commentary gig and fill the void.
Posted by: Joe ||
04/16/2003 7:12 Comments ||
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#6
Anyway, here's the key passage, Murat. Get your forehead up off the carpet long enough to give it a read.
"It is one of the most difficult things for us to understand about those who are in the grips of a collective fantasy-how even the most powerful, the most irrefutable evidence will be ignored and suppressed in order to keep the fantasy intact.
And this is the greatest danger confronting the American mission to bring sanity to the Arab world-it may not want it"
Posted by: Joe ||
04/16/2003 7:16 Comments ||
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#8
"Christian Good, Muslim Bad." That's not what he's saying (I don't think). Sanity is not a Judeo-Christian concept, but insanity is a Muslim scourge and has been for years.
Posted by: Joe ||
04/16/2003 7:49 Comments ||
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#9
murat: cypriots armenians kurds... kurdistan!
Also: allies and supporting nations SHOULD get the lion's share of the contracts. What planet are you from? They did the hard work and took the political risk. They get the reward. Since when do you reward people who give no help and who actively hinder what you are trying to do?
If you run a business, do you give contracts to those who in return help you/treat you fairly? Or do you stab your friends in the back, giving contracts to those who have tried to hurt you just so you can pretend hypocritically to have the high moral ground to impress idiots who have abandoned all rational sense of right and wrong?
I hope france, germany, russia, turkey, syria get NO contracts. Their involvement in post-war reconstruction should consist of donating money, end of story.
#10
I saw these questions today on the first page of the Independent so I thought I could try to answer them. Give Murat credit that he didn't quote the Mirror again. Questions are legitimate, answers as well.
Give them time.The U.N had 12years and 4 months.They couldn't find the bio/chem labs.
Also ever heard of circumstaintial evidence?
You know like buired mobile bio/chem labs.
Why were they buired,Murat?
Artillary shells with traces found at the filler ports.
Mustard and sarin found in the Euprates river.
Guess I have to keep kicking a dead horse.
The primary difference between pesticide and chem weapons is concentration and exposure time.If you don't believe me read the warning labels on the back of a can of bug spray,a better source would be the MSDS(Material saftey Data Sheet).
"if President Saddam had such weapons, why didn't he use them?"
They didn't have time.
The Iraqi military couldn't do a thing without orders from Saddam and sons.They had all the bridges+the oil fields wired with explosive,but managed to blow 1 bridge and 9 wells.Why,because they didn't have time.
"Where is Saddam?"
We don't have Osama yet,but we are still hunting and he is still running.Mansur,they are still digging through the rubble.
"Do Iraqi's feel liberated?"
Dancing in the streets(about the only city not rejoicing is Tikrit,you know Saddam's home town for obvious reasons),tossing flowers at Marines and Soldiers,tearing down Saddam's statues.Had the first vote of the Interm Council yesterday,Shias hold protests(first in 35 years).Why the protests?They want sole control of the government(Thier words not ours).
I would say they feel liberated.
"Is Chalabi just a crooked US stooge?"
Don't know,however I do think state should be the ones to help the Iraqi's build thier government.Haven't heard anybody tell the Iraqi's this is your new leader,just the opposite they keep telling the Iraqis(and the world)it is an Iraqi decision.
"Is North Korea next on the american hitlist?"
Not needed,they are backing-up even as we speak.Also those NKors who are not in the military or work for the government have mostly grass and leaves to eat.
"Did the allies stick to the Geneva conventions?"
Yes,but mistakes were made.Most of the looting was aginst government buildings and Saddam&Co.palaces.Iraqi police now on patrol order being restored(but of course that has escaped your limited point of view).One of the mistakes made was the U.S.military should have immediatelly placed gaurds at the hospitals and Iraqi Antiquities Mueseum(who would have thought they would have looted hospitals full of the sick and injured,I certainly didn't).
Are the rebuilding contracts going to White House cronies?
How come most of the complaints are coming from France,Germany,Russia(AoW)?You know the same ones who sold sanction busting arms and equipment.Ever heard of the children's book"The Little Red Hen".
In America we keep a very close eye on the buisness dealings of our politicians.Does Turkey?
Was the war legal?
Was Syria,France,German,Russian sanction busting legal?
Is Turkey's oppresion and genocide legal?
("Depends on who you ask").
There were other reasons for this war beside WMD.
Like getting that homicidil,genocidal maniac and son's boot off the back of the Iraqis.
Saddam's accussed support of terrorists.That is now absolutly proven.
You know,like Ansar Islam,Abu Nidal,Abu Abbas.
$25,000 reward for Paleostinian suicide bombers.
Terror training camps,with attendant documentation.
1 of those camps had an airliner shell for training purposes.
Since 9/11 America has publiclly stated we are going to get the terrorists,and put a stop to those who help,hide,support,and finance them.
#12
TGA, I welcome your comments and appreciate the effort you put behind them. I think it is worthwhile to take the time to refute Murat's claims. It's too easy and tempting just to dismiss any news we don't agree with, and it's good to see you dismantle Murat point-by-point.
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 8:18 Comments ||
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#13
The war is over? What, did Murat's imam issue a fatwa declaring it so?
#16
If "heroic Saladin" fled Baghdad he was vowing to defend with his life against the "American Mongols" like the coward and thug he always was, maybe some Arabs start to think about the bragging dictators they currently have. Maybe.
#17
Why do you folks waste time responding to this guy? He is having a wonderful time pulling chains and clearly has no interest in any sort of dialog. You might be much happier just ignoring him.
The United Nations said Tuesday it has identified $395 million in priority humanitarian goods that can be shipped to Iraq by the May 12 deadline adopted last month by the Security Council. Using the Oil-for-Food money that belongs to the people of Iraq in the first place.
Most of the goods were in transit when the war started and will be routed to Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Kuwait and Iran for transshipment to Iraq, said the U.N. office that runs the oil-for-food humanitarian program. The priority items include $181.7 million worth of food, $103.8 million of agricultural goods and $46.1 million of medicine and health supplies. In an effort to speed aid to Iraq, the Security Council on March 28 authorized Secretary-General Kofi Annan to review nearly $16 billion in contracts already approved under the program and give priority to those that could be used immediately for humanitarian relief in Iraq. The U.N. program, which uses Iraq's oil revenues primarily to pay for food and medical supplies, used to had been feeding 60 percent of the country's 22 million people. It was suspended on March 17 when Annan ordered all U.N. international staff to leave the country just before U.S. and British forces launched their military attack. The Security Council resolution gave Annan authority for only 45 days, which means goods must be shipped by May 12. How about returning all the unspent money to the Iraqi Interim Authority? Can't wait to hear Dominque argue against that.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/16/2003 12:29 am ||
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#1
liberalhawk: Yah, but I get so frustrated at ALWAYS running in the red that I just have to send down tornadoes, fires and aliens.
"So, as an example, currently the power station in An Nasiriyah is mechanically ready to resume function. However, it requires what is essentially a jump-start from another power grid in order to get the generators within it operational. This jump-start will happen we believe within the next several days from Al-Basra. The two of them are connected by power lines. The lines in fact are down right now, and when the lines have been restored and repaired between the two cities, power can move from Basra to Nasiriyah and begin the function there. A similar process is ongoing in Al-Zubair, As-Samawa, Ad Diwaniyah, al-Hillah, Najaf, Karbala, and of course Baghdad."
Anyone else here ever play Simcity(tm)? Sounds kinda familiar, no?
"The HOC uses a color-coded system to rate the humanitarian situation in Iraq's major cities. Red signifies the most dire, yellow a need for improvement, and green relatively normal.
Umm Qasr rates green in both electricity and water. Karbala rates green in power, yellow in water. Baghdad, Basra and Najaf score yellow in both categories. Kirkuk is still in the red zone, though Brooks said power and water systems were working in most other areas of the north.
About 40 percent of the capital gets power at least part of the day, Kille said. Brooks said Wednesday that Basra's water system was functioning at about 60 percent of the needed capacity, the same as before the war.
Initially, power was restored in Iraq's cities through portable generators, and water was brought in by aid workers. But the focus has now turned to repairing the infrastructure so towns are self-sufficient."
#5
*nods* The big blackout in the 1960s (1967?) kicked all but one power plant off-line. They needed power from it to start up the others, which is what took so long to restore power. Standard operating procedure for nuclear plants is that if offsite power is lost, they power down ASAP. Good reason to have variety in your power mix.
The Guardian is up to its usual tricks today, so I'm putting the scare quotes into their eadline.
The US and British governments yesterday formally began the ordered tortuous process of steering Iraq towards a democratic future, but the first day of talks was undermined by technical delays, schisms and fierce political and religious unrest sweeping across the country. The meeting, at the Talil airbase outside Nassiriya, went ahead despite a boycott by the extremist fringemain Shia Muslim group in Iraq. The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq is Iranian-backed, and if it foments unrest, its actions could increase tension between Washington and Tehran. Oh, you noticed!
The meeting ended with only the broad outlines for a new government agreed as was planned. Because In spite of the progress setbacks, Jay Garner, the retired US general who has been put in charge of reconstruction, declared at the start of the meeting: "A free Iraq and a democratic Iraq will begin today." As Iraqi exile groups sat down with selected Iraqis from within the country, there was a small huge Shia mob demonstration in Nassiriya rolling their eyes calling for rule by their lame-brained ayatollahs. Residents overwhelmingly expressed disapproval of Ahmad Chalabi, an exile who is being pushed by the Pentagon as the next Iraqi leader. Chalabi seems to be everyone's lint brush, doesn't he?
Despite a statement promise by the US president, George Bush, that the UN would have a "vital role" in Iraq, it was appropriately not invited to attend the Nassiriya meeting. Since the purpose of the meeting was to get something accomplished, it made sense to exclude the UN.
US marines, standing behind barbed wire, blocked access to Iraqis wanting to attend the meeting. One of those outside, a former Iraqi major, Zamil Hamid, 54, said: "I tried to participate but they do not allow me to. One of the US soldiers told me I was not on the list." So take a hint, Zamil, and wait for the elections.
Diplomats had said privately that simply holding yesterday's meeting without it descending into a bitter dispute would be regarded as a success, however modest. Many of the speeches met with lukewarm applause and the most vital questions for the future remained unanswered. Saddam spent 25 years wrecking the country, and the Guardian is aghast that it's taken us over a week to put it back together.
"What model will we use?" asked Hoshyar Zebari, an official from the Kurdish Democratic party. "Will it be the Afghan model, will the United Nations be involved, what will be the role of the opposition? These are all things we have to decide." Mr Khalilzad tried to encourage the Iraqi representatives to work quickly towards an interim authority. "We want you to establish your own democratic system based on Iraqi traditions and values," he told the meeting. "I urge you to take this opportunity to cooperate with each other." There's a new concept in Iraq.
A statement at the end of the meeting set out a 13-point framework for a new government. It was unclear who had suggested the points and whether the Iraqis had voted on any issue, other than the decision to meet again in 10 days. "The first vote of free Iraq should be about when the next meeting is," Gen Garner said. Spoken like a meeting chairman.
The statement said the future Iraq should be a democratic, federal system and one not based on communal identity. It stressed the rule of law and the role of women, and said the meeting had discussed the relationship between religion and the state, although it did not appear to come to any agreement on this issue. The Ba'ath party, through which Saddam Hussein exercised ultimate control, was to be dissolved. "Its effects on society must be eliminated," the statement said. Sounds like quite an accomplishment: one meeting and they've already agreed to a framework that actually make Iraq a decent place to live.
Several more meetings will be held in the weeks ahead before a final interim Iraqi authority is drawn up. "There should be an open dialogue with all national political groups to bring them into the process," the statement said. US officials who attended the meeting said they were likely to present their own proposals at the next gathering, an idea that many of the chest-thumping fiercely nationalistic Iraqi assorted nut-jobs groups are likely to find disconcerting. Too flippin' bad, boys. We brought the DJ, the drinks, the sound system and the mirror ball. You're invited to the party but don't get any strange ideas.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/16/2003 12:15 am ||
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#3
Steve, about your comment: Chalabi is the fall guy, he gets to do the hard work of trying to set up a government, gets everyone mad at him, and when the time is right he bows out. The next guy is waiting in the wings, unseen, to come to the rescue to replace the hated Chalabi.
While that's possible, I don't think it's very probable - mainly because I don't think Chalabi is that reasonable. I would believe that an even better solution could be achieved - talk, talk, talk, until Garner notices one or two local, reasonable, sensible, and liked people standing out, then the US cut Chalabi off and start working with those local people. The entire idea here is to encourage that kind of dialogue, and to help get the Iraqi people used to discussing government issues. For the last 35+ years, all they've been able to do is whisper such thoughts among themselves, and even that brought fear of being exposed. Creating a government in Iraq that meets the NEEDS of Iraq is going to take compromise, careful thought, and a lot of discussion. The more they do now with words, the less they'll do later with guns.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 10:30 Comments ||
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The Sunnis will play-ball because they are facing the well-organized (in Middle-East terms) Kurds to the North who have had a functioning semi-state for 10 years, and the, shall we say volatile, Shiites to the south who will be plagued by religous extremism for years to come.
This is why there will be a federal Iraq, with each community having substantial autonomy and a weak central government.
With the Kurds and Sunnis playing ball with the Americans, there is little the Shiites can do mess to the whole thing up, even though they are the majority. Probably the emergence a of Western oriented Shiite strongman like Chalabi is the best short to medium solution.
BTW, be prepared for lots of negative spin from the Kurds. Bottom line is that America is their new best friend and they will do whatever the USA asks, but they have a vested interest in short-term instability. Reports of Kurdish fighters outside Tikrit and moving towards Baghdad from the NE indicates a major land-grab is underway. My guess is they have more than doubled (perhaps tripled) the territory under their control. They now need time to consolidate their control and to allow Kurdish civilians to move in. It will then be fairly easy for them to claim this as historically Kurdish territory.
Overall I am very optimistic. Who was who said "Democracy is the worst form of government, until you compare it with the alternatives."
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/16/2003 1:21 Comments ||
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#5
i am starting to think that it would have been better to have fiercer, longer , harder war psychologically crushing the Iraqis to the point where they were quiet and co-operative.
I know that sounds fascist of me, but I am beginning to wonder if this wasn't part of a plan. After all, the Iraqi army just basically ran away and put civilian clothes on.
Perhaps Sammy went to Syria or JOrdan 5 months ago and spoke only through Baghdad-doubles - maybe he thought 23 years of dictatorship was enough and it was time to retire, incognito, to the south of france with some of his stolen millions.
Perhaps the army is planning just to loot and cause civil disturbance and trouble for the americans throughout any attempt at rebuilding iraq, making them look bad in the PR stakes as much as possible for as long as possible -
or maybe I'm just letting the chickenlittle henny penny media get to me.
btw: you can buy those 'deck of death' cards from
www.greatusaflags.com they are only $6 as opposed to the $150 they've been selling for on ebay.
#9
Remarkable how much US papers dement or don't even publish how much USA serves the democratic rallies over there.
Its remarkable the degree to which people in the Arab and Moslem world are willing to believe the lies and dis-information of their media!
Murat, the thing that should worry you the most is that I (and others like me) consider this not our problem! Its up to you (and others like you) to fix it!
If the Moslem world can't come to terms with reality then you (collectively) are on your way to oblivion!
You should also ask yourself 'How much we would really care if Islam disapeared completely?' Answer = 'I remember Islam! Wasn't it that historically doomed religion that no one pratices any more.'
Welcome to history!
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/16/2003 4:22 Comments ||
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Phil B, Though I am anti radical Islam I have to disagree to you notion, how much you dislike it, it is almost the only religion wich is growing (at least in the US it is the number 1 religion in growth)
Posted by: Murat ||
04/16/2003 4:30 Comments ||
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Going over the 13 points, it looks great. A federal democracy that recognizes the rights of women and minorities, ("not based on communal identity") rule of law, versus arbitrary imprisonment on the whim of the local strong man, and end to Ba'athsim, poltical violence (i.e. freedom of speech and assembly), and the group that boycotts are backed by Iran. Sounds great from here.
Questions of the separation of mosque and state are still being hashed out, but still, this is the first meeting. Democracy is messy, but looks like they are off to a good start.
Murat, think your numbers are a bit old, especially in the post 9-11 world. To far too many folks over here, Islamic terrorist is one word. There has not been enough vocal condemnation from inside to assuage the sense that the jihadi are a majority of the Muslim community.
Posted by: Ben ||
04/16/2003 5:44 Comments ||
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Residents overwhelmingly expressed disapproval of Ahmad Chalabi, an exile who is being pushed by the Pentagon as the next Iraqi leader.
I smell a plan. Chalabi is the fall guy, he gets to do the hard work of trying to set up a government, gets everyone mad at him, and when the time is right he bows out. The next guy is waiting in the wings, unseen, to come to the rescue to replace the hated Chalabi.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 8:03 Comments ||
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Murat,I wonder what those numbers are since 9/11?Especially the American Islamic communitys hesitation,obstruction,and support of thier radical elemnts.
I have yet to hear the Islamic community openly,and forcefully condemn the terrorists.Much less pledge open and active support for the WoT.They certainly haven't done much to hunt down and turn over to the legal authorities the terrorist and suportters hideing in thier midsts.
#14
"Despite a statement promise by the US president, George Bush, that the UN would have a "vital role" in Iraq, it was appropriately not invited to attend the Nassiriya meeting. "
The guardian is being particularly disingenous here. The UN is not participating because there is not yet a UNSC resolution authorizing their involvement. If UNSC members truely want UN involvement, the burden is on THEM to speedily apporve a suitable resolution. That will require compromise among the permament members of the UNSC. Diplomatic activity to that end is now taking place, with Chirac talking to Bush, Blair talking to Schroeder, French businessmen talking to Chirac :), Syria thrown in as a bargaining chip, new discoveries in Iraq making certain countries look worse (note how hard the BBC today is trying to spin that Abu Abbas is not a "big fish") The situation is "dynamic" - meanwhile the process on the ground must advance, and itself serves to pressure the UNSC to act.
#15
Phil B, Though I am anti radical Islam I have to disagree to you notion, how much you dislike it, it is almost the only religion wich is growing (at least in the US it is the number 1 religion in growth)
Murat, this thread has gone on too long, but as secular atheist, I would point out that the issue is secularism versus religous dogma.
Perhaps the most important mistake the Islamicists have made is to view this as a religous war. Its not! Its a war between secular liberal democracies and militant theism.
Know thy enemy!
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/16/2003 9:08 Comments ||
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Hell, any meeting that goes better than the usual display of democracy in the Taiwanese parliment is a good meeting, so far as I'm concerned. No punches thrown, no one hospitalized.
Read about the early days in the U.S. Congress, beatings, duels. Democracy is exciting.
Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri has resigned. Mr Hariri submitted his Cabinet's resignation to President Emile Lahoud after a meeting at the presidential palace. Mr Lahoud asked his prime minister to continue as caretaker until a replacement appointed and a cabinet formed. Mr Hariri is widely expected to be asked to form the next government. The prime minister has been in power for nine of the past 11 years. The outgoing cabinet has been in office since November 2000 after Rafik Hariri and his allies swept the parliamentary elections. A change of government has been the subject of public discussion for several months. It appeared to have been put off by the developments in the region with the war in Iraq. Hariri, a 58-year-old billionaire businessman who made his fortune in Saudi Arabia, has served as prime minister since 1992 except for the years 1998-2000. He is credited for launching a multibillion-dollar programme to rebuild Lebanon's infrastructure from the ruins of the 1975-90 civil war. Critics, however, blame him for borrowing heavily on international markets.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 06:29 pm ||
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Zimbabwe's economy has been dealt a further blow with massive increases in fuel prices. Energy Minister Amos Midzi said the price of regular petrol would be raised by 209% and diesel by 68%. Regular petrol will cost 36p a litre from 11p a litre, the state broadcaster reported. "It will take a while for the impact of the increases to be felt," Mr Midzi said. At the same time the state Central Statistical Office announced that the annual inflation rate, calculated in March, rose to a record 228%. It increased by 7.1% on the February rate. Mr Midzi said that he expects "good management and efficiency" from the state's fuel procurement monopoly, the National Oil Company of Zimbabwe (NOCZIM) to bring an improvement in the fuel supply situation. "Duh! Yeah, boss. An' we're gonna start any time now..."
He added the diesel price increase was kept lower to cushion commuters, industry, farmers and other businesses. "The economic value of each product was examined in order to determine the appropriate pump price," he said. The Zimbabwe government is making efforts to revive a deal with the Libyan oil company, Tamoil, to supply gasoline to Zimbabwe. But the Libyans are being unreasonable. They expect Zim-Bob-We to pay for it...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 06:07 pm ||
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"It will take a while for the impact of the increases to be felt,"
Nah, no one's gonna notice that it costs three times as much until next year. Riiiiighht! And I thought American oil companies had no shame the last time I filled up.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 18:33 Comments ||
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The real reason for the price rises is that Comrade Bob keeps printing money like there's no tomorrow,causing the all-too-predictable hyperinflation.Of course all the money goes to Zanu supporters,but with hikes like these,even they are going to feel cheated.Do you think Bob will last this year?
Posted by: El Id ||
04/16/2003 19:04 Comments ||
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Unless the story misquotes him or there's some serious rounding-off here, the Energy Minister can't do simple arithmetic (which may be part of the problem). An increase from 11p to 36p is an increase of 227%, not 209%.
Posted by: Dr. Weevil ||
04/16/2003 20:20 Comments ||
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Cut him some slack. They didn't offer a math major at Patrice Lumumba University when he attended.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 21:24 Comments ||
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Edited for length â another budding Tolstoy hereâŠ
With the war on Iraq seemingly over, attention is turning to post-Hussein Iraq. Russian interests in the country include past and future trade, debt and oil. LUKoil is the major Russian company involved and the one most at risk of any backlash against non-U.S. companies benefiting from the rehabilitation of Iraq. The concern is real and the risks are genuine, but we believe that LUKoil will retain its place in Iraq's oil sector, although the impact on the company itself will as always take some time to become evident. Hrm. Going to try and arrest the oilfields for real?
Now that the fighting in Iraq is winding down, the belief that if the war itself was not about oil, then the peace is very much about oil, means that one needs to assess Russia's role in a post-Hussein Iraq. For Russia read LUKoil, since the rest of the Russian oil and gas industry has but a small part to play in the early postwar world of the Iraqi oil industry. Those companies that went to Baghdad in the closing days of Hussein's administration will likely be viewed as carpetbaggers, seeking only to establish a position from which to trade out of when a new government takes over.
LUKoil is the longest-serving Russian company in Iraq, having signed its original contract to develop the West Qurna field in 1997. The field contains 7.8 billion barrels of recoverable reserves, making it one of the largest in Iraq. LUKoil and its partners Zarubezhneft and Mashinoimport have held the licence since the 1997 signing but have not carried out any development because to have done so would have breached the UN sanctions imposed on the country. Weeeell, you signed them with Hussein, yes? Umm, where is he so he can honor that contract? You could sue his corpse for breach of contract.
LUKoil's refusal to breach sanctions had been a perpetual irritant to the Iraqis but the necessity to maintain good relations with Russia meant that they never pressed the point to its logical conclusion. However, when Russia voted with the other Security Council members to support the return of weapons inspectors, Baghdad lost patience and LUKoil lost its contract. The Iraqi position was that LUKoil had been negotiating with the U.S. authorities about the retention of its contract in a future Iraq. Whatever the true reason, LUKoil lost the contract, at least in Saddam Hussein's eyes.
Is there some agreement between Russia and the United States over the protection of Russia's interests in Iraq? Statements by LUKoil's Vagit Alekperov that he had assurances from President Vladimir Putin that its interests would be protected certainly suggest that there is. Whether an interim or final Iraqi administration subscribes to that agreement is another matter. âWe were guaranteed the rights!â
âUmm, no, we said we would take it under considerationâŠâ
âThat means yes! Give us the oil! Itâs ours!â
âIf youâre going to be explosive and childish, then we shall consider saying NO. NEIN. Nyet. Cappische?â
Under international law, however, the position appears clear. A change of government is not an acceptable reason to void a contract and the West Qurna contract should remain valid. Regimes may come and go but the sovereign state of Iraq remains in existence. The alternative view is that the original contracts were not signed in the interests of the Iraqi people because companies from countries unwilling to deal with Hussein's regime were excluded from the bidding, thereby depressing the price. They should be voided and reauctioned, say the supporters of radical reform.
LUKoil appears to share the view that its contracts are legally valid, appointing a firm of UK-based lawyers to protect its interests and warning other companies that it will take any necessary steps to safeguard those interests, including going to arbitration and delaying the field development for six to eight years. The company is clearly willing to play hardball where Iraq is concerned.
To the victors the spoils? Possibly, although realpolitik will almost certainly play a role. Putin did not actually threaten to veto a second UN resolution, leaving Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov to make the running in this direction.
Despite relatively light damage to infrastructure, oil exports from Iraq are suspended and look unlikely to resume until July because only the Security Council has the legal authority to authorize a resumption of oil-for-food or lift the sanctions (although the latter will expire eventually anyway). With Russia and France both veto powers in the Security Council, the opportunities for deal-making exist, although there are those who would balk at any suggestion of a deal to the detriment of the nations that had fought the war. "The Iraqi people" may own the oil, but someone else will doubtless be managing it for them.
LUKoil will probably keep its stake in West Qurna, although perhaps in a consortium of oil companies, including one or two from the United States and Britain in order to share the benefits of victory more widely. However, with a 7.8 billion barrel field to develop, this outcome may not be too different from what would have happened anyway. Few companies would want to take on the challenge -- and risk -- of developing such a large field on their own and a consortium of oil companies is probably the right way forward. LUKoil, too, would probably welcome the opportunity to work as an equal partner with Western companies on the project, noting the stature it would then have in the global oil industry.
The impact on LUKoil itself will not be significant. When it lost the contract late last year, when it looked as if it might regain it and when it lost it definitively, WAIT A MINUTE!!! Did I read that correctly? âWhen it lost the contractâ and âwhen it lost it definitivelyâ surely sound like they are admitting they no longer have a valid claim as of LAST YEAR. Hmm. the share price was unmoved.
P.S. Hi Sam's mom, and Yes, I am still enjoying my day job. :PPPPP
IRNA -- Iran is negotiating with certain parties to encourage members of the terrorist Mujahedin Khalq Organization (MKO) to return home from their dismantled bases in Iraq following the US-led invasion of that country, an official here said Wednesday. "Certain parties"? Would that be us?
"We announce explicitly that the Iranian government is ready to accept these individuals into the country and rid them from all the afflictions they are having now," Government spokesman Abdollah Ramezanzadeh told reporters. Sounds, ummmm... permanent.
"We are currently negotiating with all those we think could have an influence on this (since) leaders of the grouplet have deserted their subordinates and fled the scene of the conflict," he added. "Then I looked around me, a — thhhhppp! — they wuz gone!"
The official rang out a clear warning against sheltering members of the terrorist group, calling on world countries to extradite senior leaders of MKO. The Islamic Republic refers to members of the group as Munafeqin or hypocrites. "The Munafeqin are a terrorist group and according to international resolutions no country has the right to let them in and all leaders of the grouplet must be extradited to Iran for trial," Ramezanzadeh said. They'll look good with necks a yard long...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 03:14 pm ||
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Fred, are these guys the same ones that periodically come down from the hills into the Iranian cities to thump the Iranian student protesters? If I remember there is a "rural" group of enforcers that the Guardian Council employs.
Maybe the Mad Mullahs need some cheap muscle. On the theory that if youâve met one knuckle-dragging thug, youâve met them all, perhaps this is the reason Iran seems so willing to take them back.
Posted by: Dave ||
04/16/2003 21:04 Comments ||
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South Korea has agreed on trilateral talks on North Korea's nuclear issue, even though it is excluded from them, in order to facilitate the launching of dialogue between the North and the United States, Seoul officials said yesterday. The officials confirmed that multilateral talks on the North's suspected nuclear program will start with a three-way forum among Pyongyang, Washington and Beijing, and that South Korea may join the envisaged talks later because the North insisted on the trilateral format. The South's decision, however, stirred controversy in the nation that Seoul will fail to play a major role in consultations concerning the nuclear issue, which directly affects the security of the South, if it fails to join the talks from the beginning. "We decided to accept trilateral talks because it is important to begin talks at an early date so that we can prevent an escalation of nuclear tension and find a breakthrough on the matter," a Foreign Ministry official said.
South Korea had earlier preferred a six-party meeting among the two Koreas, the United States, Russia, China and Japan. But it retracted because its insistence on initial participation in multilateral talks would only delay the start of dialogue given the North's opposition, according to diplomatic sources. The ministry official said the government will actively seek to join multilateral talks once the forum is launched. Incoming South Korean Ambassador to Washington Han Sung-joo said yesterday that the United States does not care in what form such dialogue begins because multilateral talks are only a process, not a result. "Regardless of how many will initially participate, the dialogue framework will evolve into six-way talks and the talks will discuss a lot of issues," Han said during a meeting with South Korean reporters. Han said Washington believes South Korea and Japan can join multilateral talks when the issue of economic cooperation arises, and Russia may also be included for consultations on energy matters. Experts were divided on their evaluation of the South's acceptance of being initially left out in the dark. "I think South Korea agreed on the format for efficiently solving the nuclear issue because the South hopes for an early resolution of the nuclear crisis and can join the talks later," said Prof. Koh Yu-hwan of Dongguk University.
Koh interpreted North Korea's insistence on three-way talks as stemming from its belief that the nuclear problem is an issue between Pyongyang and Washington, whereas China can mediate or act as guarantor as it was a main player in the armistice treaty, which ended the Korean War (1950-53). Some experts, however, criticized the South Korean decision as weakening the South's position on the nuclear issue, which directly affects the security of the South. "I am very disappointed that the South is excluded from multilateral talks. South Korea should have insisted on its initial participation even if this may delay the beginning of multilateral talks," said Paik Hak-soon, a senior researcher at the private Sejong Institute. "South Korea should be included because China, which is not a direct party to the nuclear issue, is participating. The South may only play a secondary role when it joins later," Paik said.
#1
That whole exercise will be Uncle Sam telling China to reign in it's agent provocatuer in exchange for us tossing a few bills towards SARS.
Nkor didn't want Skor there to see the smack down.
Posted by: Scott ||
04/16/2003 15:57 Comments ||
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First the SKors bail out of some UN vote on NKor violations of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Agreement, and now this. Are they getting paid off somehow, or are they that scared of Kimmie?
(Yeah, yeah, I know, it's because they don't have juche.....when are we gonna get some more rants from Army-based Man?)
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 21:36 Comments ||
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IRNA — What has transpired in this part of the world is part of a carefully laid out plan by the US to promote the cause of the Zionists, `Iran News' asserted on Wednesday. Hmmm... A carefully laid out plan, is it? That sounds pretty awful...
The White House's ratching up of rhetoric against Damascus accusing it of supporting terrorism, possessing chemical weapons and sheltering top brass of Saddam's fallen regime has taken the world by surprise, the article added. I dunno why. My surprise meter didn't twitch at all...
Initially, it was perceived that Washington's campaign against Syria was nothing more than an effort to rattle the Damascus cage. However, Washington's current actions toward Syria, which it has already labelled as a "rogue" state, suggests something more is up in America's sleeves, warned the daily. "After dealing with Iraq, the Zionist entity would like nothing better than the US going after two of the regime's two bitter adversaries — Syria and Iran," the daily pointed out. By golly, they're right! It has nothing to do with the sponsorship of international terrorism... Uh. Well, maybe it does.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 02:43 pm ||
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And we're going to believe anything that comes from these terrorist lovers? They also claim not to be trying to make nuclear weapons too-LIARS!
EFL, somewhat
Our last column (How 'shock and awe' plays in Pyongyang, April 12) looked at how the Iraq war, and the fall of Baghdad to US forces in particular, is likely to be perceived in Pyongyang, focusing mainly on the international dimension and the nuclear issue.
But those potent TV images - surely hidden from North Korean viewers - of Saddam Hussein's statues being felled and desecrated, with their echoes of Eastern Europe 1989, also raise the question: Could it happen here? Will we ever see joyous and frenzied North Korean mobs meting out the same treatment to statues of Kim Il-sung, and all the portraits of him and Kim Jong-il? (Come to think of it, there are few if any actual statues of the Dear Leader. His role is more that of high priest of his father's cult.)
⊠I've long wondered how North Koreans really see the state they're in. Another way to put this is in terms of two great mid-20th-century literary dystopias, each presciently but differently imagined by English writers. Is North Korea George Orwell's 1984, or is it Aldous Huxley's Brave New World?
The difference, you may recall, is that in the latter people are programmed to believe; whereas in Nineteen Eighty-Four everybody knows they live under a Big Lie. North Korea does a remarkable job of presenting itself as a Brave New World. All those shiny happy people praising the Leader: grinning lipsticked munchkins warbling to accordions, or the serried ranks of human cartoons in mass games like last year's Arirang.
This is quite a contrast from the cynicism that in the old Eastern Europe was never far below the surface. Forty years ago, an early British visitor to North Korea, economist Joan Robinson, reckoned that "no deviant thought has a chance to sprout". A society closed off from the wider world, with universal nursery education, had an unparalleled opportunity to capture and mold its citizens' hearts and minds.
Has it worked? I wonder. Especially now, there are contradictions aplenty. For one thing, even if they don't know how well South Koreans or even Chinese now live - and I suspect many do know - North Koreans have seen their own living standards fall catastrophically, from industrialization to famine, just when Kim Jong-il succeeded his father Kim Il-sung. Don't they make a connection? Or do they really buy the official excuse, that this is all the fault of cruel nature, fickle allies, and imperialist blockade?
The famine has undermined the Kim regime's legitimacy in another way too. Where the state used to provide, now many - maybe most - people must fend for themselves, buying food in private markets. The state must grudgingly tolerate these, but it still refuses to give market forces free rein as in China. Add in last July's half-baked reforms, and it's hard to imagine that most North Koreans don't harbor criticisms of their rulers' failure to provide (while the elite live well), even if it's unsafe to speak out.
Another factor is that North Korea classifies everyone into three categories - loyal, wavering, or hostile - with up to 50 subdivisions. This determines everything: where you live, what you eat, what job you do, whether you can go to university, and more. Defectors confirm what is hardly surprising: that this is hugely resented as grossly unfair, based as it is on ascribed guilt (eg having grandparents who were landlords, or relatives in South Korea) rather than anything you yourself have done. With more than half the population classified as wavering or hostile, why should they be loyal to rulers who mistrust them? The extreme and arbitrary cruelty of the gulag, where whole families are sent, similarly breeds hatred.
Will the worm ever turn? Over the years there have been occasional reports of unrest, usually military, but none has been fully confirmed. If any risings did occur, they evidently failed: Kim Jong-il is still there. Iraq, after all, has shown how an unpopular but brutal and well-organized regime can crush resistance and cling to power. In that poignant and pointed TV image, even pulling down Saddam's statue, let alone the man himself and his rule, needed a big helping hand from an American tank.
Whatever Kim Jong-il's nightmares, somehow I doubt if we shall ever see tanks of the USFK (United States Forces, Korea) - or even South Korean - rolling down Pyongyang's broad avenues. But there are other ways to separate a people from their rulers. Doug Shin, a US-Korean activist, plans to send thousands of tiny radios by balloon across the Demilitarized Zone from South Korea. Sounds crazy to some, but hey, why not give it a try?
#1
plans to send thousands of tiny radios by balloon across the Demilitarized Zone from South Korea
Nice idea except little Kimmie has radio jammers planted every where. He's not paranoid, it's just that everyone is out to get him.
The United States is urging Zim-Bob-We's neighbours to step up pressure on President Robert Mugabe to hand power to a transitional government to pave the way for new elections, a senior US State Department official said today. Eeek! Another multilateral approach!
"What we're telling them is there has to be a transitional government in Zimbabwe that leads to a free and fair, internationally supervised election," the official said. "That is the goal. He stole the last one, we can't let that happen again," the official said, referring to a widely condemned poll last March in which Mugabe won re-election. "It has to be internationally supervised, open, transparent with an electoral commission that works," the official told reporters on condition of anonymity. "In other words, it has to be done without the UN and without the French!"
The official would not say whether the US had got positive reactions to its call from any specific country in the region, but said generally the "neighbourhood" was increasingly aware of the problems posed by Mugabe's rule. "The neighbourhood — meaning southern Africa — is realising that this is not going well, this is breaking bad," the official said. "The food situation is going to get nothing but worse, the economic scene is disastrous." They know how bad it is; they just don't want to move against one of their old-time revolutionary brothers.
The official noted that Zimbabwe's economy was now crippled by hyperinflation and an unemployment rate of 80 per cent and that Zimbabweans were fleeing their country in droves to become refugees in Botswana, Mozambique, and South Africa. Tough call: live in a mud hut in a refugee camp in Mozambique, or stay home and get raped, pillaged and murdered. As Steve Martin would say on SNL, "Bring out the Common Book of Wisdom"!
In addition, the situation in Zimbabwe is hurting the economies of other countries in the region as potential investors steer clear because of fears about the spread of the crisis. "The neighbourhood is starting to realise that there is a downside to giving aid and protection to Comrade Bob," the official said, using a derogatory nickname for Mugabe. Comrade Bob has a bad case of kooties, and no investor wants to get kooties!
"There is stuff happening, there is stuff happening behind the scenes," the official added, declining to elaborate. The United States has been a vociferous critic of Mugabe in recent months and led a charge at the UN Human Rights Commission to condemn the Harare government. Har! The dreaded UNHRC! That'll show 'em. Actually, the 1st Armored Cav would show 'em a lot better.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/16/2003 02:08 pm ||
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Great,now we can start the countdown to the first pro-Bob march."No Blood For...um...what IS in Zimbabwe,dear?"
Posted by: El Id ||
04/16/2003 17:24 Comments ||
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"No blood for rhinoceri"?
Posted by: Fred ||
04/16/2003 18:31 Comments ||
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"It has to be done with the UN and the French." Steve, you left out Jimmy Carter.
IRNA -- Minister of Defense Rear Admiral Ali Shamkhani in a message on Wednesday congratulated his Syrian counterpart over Syria's national occasion of Evacuation Day, and highlighted the need for the expansion of Tehran-Damascus ties. Shamkhani, in his message to General Musfata Tlas, stressed that the unilateral approaches of outside powers have triggered war in the region, adding that this has made the need to promote mutual relations more significant than before. He further stressed that Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution had opened a new chapter in relations with Syria. "Iran's ties with Syria could be a model of mutual confidence and good will for the Muslim nations and also for the members of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM)," Shamkhani said in the message.
The harder-liners are starting to get their breath back now, thinking in terms of combining forces to fight the infidel. Now we can sit back and watch of few months in infighting in Teheran as the moderates try to straighten up their act while the tough guys push for the united front thing. Syria, of course, will go for the united front, but it takes two to tango. I think Iran's ultimately going to pass, but the behind-the-scenes bloodletting will either weaken the hardliners or cause them to try and push the Khatami bloc aside. If that happens, we might eventually have to send in troops to stop the slaughter.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
04/16/2003 02:11 pm ||
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#1
something to start thinking about now. How would this happen
Hardliners push Khatami out, more radical reformers (students, etc) take to streets en masse - thugs come down on them - Khatami forced to take stand - army, police split? Mass disorder in most Iranian cities.
What next - go to UN? Go without Tony? Check with Iraqis for permission to use their soil as base? Use ground forces? or mainly air? or mainly special forces? How many carriers do we keep in area - looks like three now. How many divisions - 3 or 4 US divisons? pre-position equipment? Iran is bigger place then Iraq, likely to more serious defense of regime - OTOH uprising likely to occur before we go in? The longer we wait to go in the more blood on the streets, but the less political cost to us. Hmmmm.
#2
congratulated his Syrian counterpart over Syria's national occasion of Evacuation Day
what kind of cheezy-moustached countries celebrate Evacuation Day? Yeah I said that! and it was about your moustache. Celebrate "Ruuunnnn AAAwwwaaayyy" Day? Ooohh I'm scared...
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 16:08 Comments ||
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Why does the term "Evacuation Day" bring to mind certain scatalogical references...?
Zimbabwe has failed to respond to appeals for reform from the Commonwealth and its situation has worsened since suspension from the group of mainly ex-British colonies, according to a report leaked today. "Overall the general political, economic and social situation in Zim-Bob-We has deteriorated since March 2002," said an internal report by Don McKinnon, the Commonwealth Secretary-General, obtained and published by Britain's opposition Conservative Party. Gee, they noticed.
The report was drawn up around the time last month that the Commonwealth decided to extend a one-year suspension of Zimbabwe at least until December a sanction which has caused bitter divisions among many of the group's 54 nations.
"'Ere, now! Yew can't sanction him just because he's a bloody-handed dictator! Yew gotta wait 'til he does somefin'!"
The original suspension of President Robert Mugabe's government came in protest at proven alleged election rigging and the massive seizure of white owned farms for kleptocratic governement ministers landless blacks. In his report, McKinnon said Mugabe had completely ignored the Commonwealth's calls for political dialogue and national reconciliation, and the promotion of "transparent, equitable and sustainable measures" for land reform. Government and law and order institutions were still functioning, but "under considerable pressure and constraints, with selective enforcement in many cases amid widespread allegations of abuses," the report said. The opposition Movement for Democratic Change "faces death considerable harassment, pressure and politically motivated violence and intimidation," it added. As in, they're being murdered.
The government's stealing "chaotic and destabilising" land theft programmes have hit food production and heightened unemployment, causing "a persistent downward trend" for the economy, it also said. Bob has managed to combine the worst aspects of socialism, tribalism, and bullheadedness. This might qualify him for a tenured chair at Berkeley!
The Commonwealth split over Zimbabwe has appeared to pit white nations against African and Asian ones in the seven-decade-old group which joins almost one third of the world's countries with 1,7 billion people. On one side, African kleptocratic heavyweights South Africa and Nigeria, for example, believe Mugabe's government has recorded enough progress over the past year in land reform, human rights and democracy to warrant re-admission to the Commonwealth.
I think they're regarding any movement at all as "progress," regardless of direction. In this case, collapse represents movement, so it must be a good thing...
But Mugabe's opponents such as Australia say that stance is a betrayal of Commonwealth principles, pointing to the treason trial of opposition figures and harsh media and security laws. Too bad an African leader in the Commonwealth couldn't say that, it might penetrate.
Mugabe accuses former colonial ruler Britain and others of perpetuating "neo-colonial" attitudes towards Zimbabwe and argues land reforms are a bid to correct a colonial injustice that left 70% of the best agricultural land in the hands of whites making up less than 1% of the population. There's a right way and a wrong way to do land reform. Bob went the wrong way for the worst reasons.
Zimbabwe is grappling with its worst political and economic crisis since independence from Britain in 1980, when Mugabe seized power took over as leader, with record unemployment and inflation and acute shortages of fuel and foreign currency.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/16/2003 01:58 pm ||
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Zimbabwe is a rich nation endowed with both natural resources and natural beauty. It went from a stable, prosperous nation to the pits of degradation and tyranny in less than three years. Zimbabwe was a food exporter until Mugabe's "land reforms" began. Now 80% of the population is facing starvation.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/16/2003 14:52 Comments ||
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Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), once one of the jewels of Africa, whose leaders were branded as horrible racists and vilified by the leftist world press, has descended into an irreversible hell of kleptocratic and AIDs-infested ruin. Soon, South Africa will follow Zim's lead into anrchy and oblivion when Mbeki tries to blame the remaining Whites for their economic ills. Maybe they were right--can Black Africa rule its own people successfully?
#3
See, the progress that has been made in killing whitey, starving the inhabitant, wrecking infrastructure, human rights abuses, rape, murder, and endemic corruption, just proves how horrible colonialism is.
If the UK was still running Zimbabwe, these wonderful changes could not have taken place!
Only racists would say things like Mugabe has completely trashed our nation.
Racists!
[/sarcasm]
I'm just waiting to find out how it is America's or Jews or a combination of both who did this to Zimbabwe.
It shouldn't be long before the accusations are made.
Unless I've already missed them.
#4
Celissa - It's the International Rhodesian Conspiracy. Same thing, really. Christopher Johnson tracks it regularly...
Posted by: Fred ||
04/16/2003 18:38 Comments ||
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Hell, I wish I knew what to think about this mess...I wish Mr. Mandela would hold a press conference or something so's he could tell me.
Posted by: (lowercase) matt ||
04/16/2003 20:06 Comments ||
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I predict that by November 2003, there will be a full scale famine in Zimbabwe, and our leftists will find a way to blame Bush for it. "We Are the World II", anyone? Yawn.
I would like to change the language a little bit. When famine does come to Zimbabwe, let us not call it a humanitarian crsis, but a Mugbarian crisis.
#7
Where's Desmond Tutu? Where's Jimmy Carter? And speaking of South Africa, their gummint is about to pay $84 million to victims of apartheid. Let the raid on the treasury begin.
Jorge Mas Santos, the chairman of the Cuban American National Foundation, congratulated HBO Productions today on the removal of an Oliver Stone documentary on Fidel Castro from HBO's May schedule. The documentary, titled "Comandante," reportedly was a showcase for the world's longest reigning tyrant in his own words — without context or dissenting views. Making him feel right at home
"In recent weeks the world has been reminded once again of the cruelty and deceit of Fidel Castro and his henchmen," stated Mas. "The mass arrests of peaceful dissidents, the harsh prison sentences — up to 28 years — imposed on human rights activists, and the summary firing squad execution of three young men seeking to flee the island demonstrate that Castro remains as committed to ruling through fear and intimidation as ever. To have provided a platform for Castro to try to whitewash his sins would have been an unforgivable insult to the thousands of men and women who suffer in his tropical gulag," added Mas.
"Bah! I am the Great Director, Unmasker of Deep-Laid Plots, Oliver Stone! What do I care for the opinions of a bunch of Cubeheads? I decide what's history! Why, you may ask? It's because of my unique humility and modesty."
"HBO is well known for its professional integrity and allowing an aging dictator to distort the truth and go unchallenged would not have been in keeping with that tradition," noted the CANF Chairman. How long before we hear cries of "Censorship!"? Hey Oliver, why don't you call CNN? This puff piece on a ruthless dictator sounds right up their alley. Or are you still trying for that Saddam interview?
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 01:49 pm ||
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Syria has functioned as a hub for al-Qaeda operatives who moved Islamic extremists and money from Italy to north-eastern Iraq, where the recruits fought alongside the recently defeated Ansar al-Islam terrorist group, according to an Italian investigation.
The investigation, which began last year, could intensify the growing debate about Syria's alleged ties to terrorism.
That's something that has to be debated? After that, we can debate what religion the Pope is, the bathroom habits of bears, and whether dogs smell funny when they're wet...
Two weeks ago, Italian police arrested seven alleged al-Qaeda operatives. They were charged with sending about 40 extremists through Syria to terrorist bases operated jointly by al-Qaeda and Ansar al Islam, whose stronghold in north-eastern Iraq was recently overrun by Kurdish and US troops. Transcripts of wiretapped conversations between the arrested suspects and others paint a detailed picture of overseers in Syria co-ordinating the movement of recruits and money between Europe and Iraq, according to court documents obtained by the Los Angeles Times.
Oh, Ethel! Quick! My pills! Oh, who'da thunkit?
An Italian judicial order dated March 31 said the conversations showed that a Kurdish spiritual leader, identified as Mullah Fuad, was the respected "gatekeeper in Syria for volunteers intent on reaching Iraq".
"Are you the Gatekeeper?"
Mullah Fuad and others based near Damascus gave orders to the suspects in Italy, according to authorities. Italian investigators say they have no evidence that the Syrian Government was aware of the network or protected it.
On the other hand, I'll bet they don't have any evidence it made any effort, either...
Still, the activity of the alleged terrorist network raises questions because Damascus has aggressive security services that would likely be aware of extremists operating in the country. "We are not interested in the politics of it," an Italian law enforcement official said. "The investigation shows that there were several leaders in Syria — that's the bottom line." Syria has helped the US-led crackdown on al-Qaeda that began after the September 11 attacks. In an unusual act of co-operation with US authorities, Syrian agents in late 2001 arrested and interrogated a Syrian-German suspect accused of recruiting Mohamed Atta and other September 11 hijackers. Yet Syria also has long been accused of aiding and protecting Hezbollah and other terrorist groups.
"Accused"? You can look up the phone numbers of their headquarters in the Damascus phone book!
As rumblings of a coming US war on Iraq increased last year, Italian police detected increased phone contact between suspects in Italy and the Ansar al Islam terrorist training camps in Iraq. The conversations soon indicated the route to the terrorist stronghold in Kurdistan led through Syria. Italian investigators are still trying to identify Mullah Fuad and the other suspects in Syria. In addition to the mullah, the Italians are keenly interested in a North African suspect in Syria named Abderrazak. He figured in wiretapped conversations with two of the arrested suspects, Cabdullah Ciise, a Somali who allegedly has ties to the attacks on Israeli tourists in Kenya last November, and Mohamed Daki, an accused Moroccan document forger who is an admitted associate of members of the Hamburg cell that plotted the September 11 attacks. Abderrazak could also have ties to the Hamburg cell, Italian investigators say.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 11:24 am ||
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guys and gals, I have got to express my genuine growing fondness for the Italians. socialist parties and fascist parties notwithstanding, they sure have stepped up to the plate since Berlusconi (sp?) took charge. Also, after finding out that Polish special forces took a low-profile, but important role in the fighting, well, I just say that if you want to tell me any Polish jokes, from now on substitute "Polish" for "French"!
Radical Palestinian leader Abu Abbas is not covered by an immunity clause in a 1995 peace accord, a US official said, rejecting Palestinian arguments for his immediate release. The clause in question, contained an interim peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians, deals only with the detention and prosecution of certain people in the jurisdiction of the Jewish state and the Palestinian Authority, the official told AFP on condition of anonymity. "It does not apply to the legal status of persons detained in a third country," the official said of Abbas, the mastermind of the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro who was capture by US forces in Baghdad on Monday.
The Palestinian leadership has complained that the arrest of Abbas, also known as Mohammed Abbas, is illegal under the 1995 accord and called for his release. That accord says that members of the Palestine Liberation Organization cannot be arrested or tried for acts committed before September 1993. Abbas' Palestine Liberation Front is part of the PLO. But the agreement, signed in Washington on September 28, 1995, is a bilateral Israeli-Palestinian accord and does not set out any US specific commitment to immunity for acts against US citizens. Israel has already rejected the Palestinian argument and Italy is seeking Abbas' extradition. Abbas was sentenced in absentia in Italy to five life terms in prison for his role in the hijacking. Get the needle ready.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 10:25 am ||
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Yes! First stop, Gitmo, then Marion, then hell...and no virgins 4 U Abu lol
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 10:38 Comments ||
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Needle hell. Get a wheelchair, shoot him in the head, and dump his corpse in the ocean.
#3
clearly the deal was designed to prevent the Israelis from arresting Arafat et al the moment they set foot in Gaza, not to cover people like Abbas. I hope Americans are taking appropriate note of the sliminess of people like Saeb Erekat.
#6
Not to Italy, anyway. They took him from us (anyone Sigonella ?) and they FREED him. Many are too young to remember this shame. I will not forget and my vote is for MOJO: wheelchair for wheelchair.
#7
Abu should bend over and kiss his ugly #$$% good bye.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
04/16/2003 11:53 Comments ||
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#8
"Disney Cruise Lines announces the addition of their newest attraction. 'Dunking Abu', named after the monkey made famous in the movie 'Aladdin', is a fun-filled laugh-riot in which the famed Palestinian peacemaker Abu Abbas will be tied to a wheelchair, dropped over the side, and then recovered and revived. The highlight of the cruise will occur on the last day of the cruise when Mr Abbas won't be recovered or revived.
The character of 'Abu' will again be voiced by Robin Williams."
#11
One of the other stories about this ratbastard says that he was one of the main conduits of reward money that Saddam sent to Palestinian homicide bombers' families. No wonder they want to save his ugly hairy ass.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
04/16/2003 19:54 Comments ||
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On the eve of the Army Day, the General Headquarters of the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic on Wednesday renewed allegiance to the goals of the Islamic Revolution and people. "The Army, benefiting from the experience of the eight-year imposed war, active participation in the reconstruction of the country and self-sufficiency in military hardware, has become one of the strongest armies in the world and ready to defend Iranian territorial integrity, national interest and independence of the country," said the statement to mark the occasion.
Don't tell me. They're now the Fourth Largest Army in the World, and they're following an Army-based policy...
The General Headquarters of the Armed Forces (ordered) invited the people to take part in the annual parade to be held at the compound of mausoleum of the late Imam Khomeini on Friday. They've been smoking that imported NK crack, again.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 09:11 am ||
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The real question here is whether the Iranian Army would support the govt if the govt was threatened by demonstrators.
#2
"The Army, benefiting from the experience of the eight-year imposed war,... has become one of the strongest armies in the world"
Ummmm OK, let's see: 8 yr bloodbathstalemate war utilizing millions of fodder vs a 27 day victorious drive with a couple hundred casualties by a force sent thousands of miles? I guess it all depends on how you define "strongest", right Bill?
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 9:24 Comments ||
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The Palestinian Authority demanded the release of veteran Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Abbas on Wednesday, saying his detention in Iraq by U.S. forces violated an interim Middle East peace deal. "We demand the United States release Abu Abbas. It has no right to imprison him," Palestinian cabinet minister Saeb Erekat told Reuters. "The Palestinian-Israeli interim agreement signed on September 28, 1995 stated that members of the Palestine Liberation Organization must not be detained or tried for matters they committed before the Oslo peace accord of September 13, 1993," he said. "This interim agreement was signed on the U.S. side by President Clinton and his secretary of state, Warren Christopher," Erekat added. One, I don't believe that agreement was intended to cover terrorist acts commited outside of Israel. And two, if it does, that we just ship his ass to Italy, I don't recall them signing any such agreement. Oh, and we need to make sure Clinton and Christopher get the credit they so richly deserve.
There was no immediate Israeli comment on Abbas' arrest by U.S. special forces. Abbas masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship in the Mediterranean. Hijack and murder. Never forget, never forgive.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 08:13 am ||
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I stole this from Silent Running, it nicely sums up my feelings: An agreement isn't binding when one of the signatories comprehensively breaks it, as I think we can all agree the Palestinians have done. So that's it. No immunity for you! Now duct-tape the bastard to a wheelchair, attach it to the steam catapault on the "Kitty Hawk", and shoot him off in the general direction of oblivion already!
Priceless.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/16/2003 10:13 Comments ||
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Do I understand correctly (from NPR this morning) that Abbas lived in Israel for a while after the Achille Lauro incident, and also that the US dropped their charges against him? If true, this is really disconcerting, and we have little alternative but to hand him over to Italy who actually followed through and convicted him (to life, thank God!).
Posted by: Dar ||
04/16/2003 8:24 Comments ||
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Since the PA has not lived up to the Oslo accords they should not be in force, regardless of what Clinton signed away. The PA should be shamed loudly and publicly for wanting this bastard freed, and Saeb Erekat exposes himself once again for the terror-abetting piece of crap he has always been. Abbas should die with a needle in his arm and the Klinghoffer family giving him the collective finger
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 8:32 Comments ||
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via Command Post - Lisa Klinghoffer hails Abbas' capture
also via Command Post - it appears: "Under the deal, Israel's Supreme Court in 1998 declared Abbas immune from prosecution in Israel over the Achille Lauro hijacking.
Abbas had visited the West Bank and Gaza many times in co-ordination with the Americans and the Israelis, Mr Erekat said" (Ed - my bold)
We are not bound by Israel's Supreme Court nor should we be bound by treaties the other party hasn't lived up to - I stand by my earlier comments
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/16/2003 8:49 Comments ||
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Right on, Frank! But you negelcted to request that the needle be rusty, and dull...
Posted by: Ken B ||
04/16/2003 8:51 Comments ||
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Was the treaty ratified by the Senate? If not, then Clinton's signature might be about as meaningful as his signature on the ICC. That is, not at all.
Posted by: David Hines ||
04/16/2003 8:52 Comments ||
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Let's release him . . . overboard, strapped to a wheelchair, in Italian waters.
#9
Italy didn't sign it at all, did they?
They've already requested extradition.
If we've got any problem with prosecuting him, just turn him over to the Italians.
#10
The Palestinian Authority demanded the release of veteran Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Abbas on Wednesday, saying his detention in Iraq by U.S. forces violated an interim Middle East peace deal.
HAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!
Apparently, "violations" are only valid as long as it isn't the Palestinians that are doing the violating.
A little bit about that fertilizer the South is sending to the North. Really great people up there.
Fertilizer that South Korea gives to North Korea is used to grow opium plants, said an organization of South Koreans who fled the North during the Korean War.
The group, called Iebukdominhoi, reported in its newsletter Donghwa Shinmun this week that a defector support organization in China said that Room 39 of the North's Labor Party, which specializes in earning hard currency, has been distributing the fertilizer given by the South. The paper said the fertilizer had gone to farms throughout at least four provinces - North Hamgyeong, South Hamgyeong, Jagang and Yanggang - and that North Korea authorities have mandated that at least 30 percent of the acreage on some farms be devoted to growing opium poppies. Those farms had staff that specialize in growing the poppies, the report said.
And what was the difference between a Commie and a drug dealer? Oh, yeah. That's right. The uniform...
An official at the Ministry of Unification said that it was hard to confirm the report, because North Korea, in its confirmation documents, only discloses where the fertilizer is sent. The opium grown at these farms is processed at the Nanam Pharmaceutical Factory in Cheongjin, North Hamgyeong province and the Suncheong Pharmaceutical Factory in Suncheon, South Pyeongan province, the report said. The narcotics are exported overseas in 400-gram or 1-kilogram packages. The report said that a Hong Kong dealer had secretly visited the Nanam factory recently.
North Korea started growing poppies in 1992 on the orders of former President Kim Il Sung. The project was called "Baikdoraji Saeop," which translates to "white balloon flower project." The current leader Kim Jong Il changed the name of the project in 1999 to "Piramidon Saeop" - the meaning of which is not quite clear. Not much that Kimmme does is very clear.
Posted by: Michael ||
04/16/2003 07:52 am ||
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"Piramidon Scheme Saeop. Hmm⦠how the fuck is drug money opium more important than food, Kim Jong Il!?
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
