RIYADH - Saudi security forces have arrested 25 suspects in connection with the May 12 Riyadh suicide bombings that left 35 people dead, the Saudi interior minister said in remarks published Saturday. "So far, we have arrested up to 25 people. A number of other suspects are being hunted. We have made progress in the investigations ... but we still need more time to complete it," Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz told Okaz daily.
So this isn't 25 new suspects, but a total of 25 nabbed to date...
It has not yet been established that all those detained are linked to the terror bombings in Riyadh, the minister added. The Saudi security authorities were still hunting for several other suspects, including 10 members of a cell of 19 uncovered by the kingdom just a few days before the bombings, Prince Nayef said.
Mostly the ones that didn't blow up...
Those sought include Turki Mishal Dandani and Ali al-Ghamdi, number one and two on the list of the 19 members of the terror cell, and who are believed to be the masterminds of the Riyadh attacks. Newspapers here had reported that Ghamdi had already been caught. The minister previously announced that six of the suspected nine members who died in the attacks were identified and included four members of the cell of 19. Three more dead bodies were being investigated. Another of the cell members, Yussuf al-Ayeeri, was killed in a shootout with Saudi police on May 31. Two Saudi security men were killed and three others wounded in the clash. A second gunman was arrested. Prince Nayef said he believed Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda terror network was behind the Riyadh blasts and that other organizations may have also assisted it.
I'd say that's a pretty safe assumption, just having gone over the list of names of those toe-tagged or in custody...
The minister said available indications suggest that Al-Qaeda leaders were still alive and issuing orders. Iran, which reported the arrest of several Al-Qaeda suspects, has not extradited anyone to Saudi Arabia following the attacks, Prince Nayef said, hoping Iran would cooperate with the kingdom.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 03:30 pm ||
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via instapundit
Britain's representative on the elite body drafting a European Constitution stormed out of a crucial meeting last night in protest at last-minute changes to the text that were deemed profoundly threatening by Westminster and other national parliaments. Gisela Stuart, a Labour MP, reacted with fury to efforts by Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who heads the drafting team, to sneak through new clauses that would change the character of the European Union. "These issues had never been discussed before by the praesidium, and there was no justification for adding them now," she said. "I told them this was getting silly, I had a plane to catch, and I wasn't even going talk about them." The offending clauses were a back-door move to allow future treaty changes to be made without requiring ratification by national parliaments. The Spanish and Danish representatives also protested, forcing M Giscard d'Estaing to pull the text off the table. given the attempts at French control of the EU, why would anyone offer up their sovereignty? For the financial benefits? Anyone seen a French budget in the black lately?
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 09:51 am ||
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#2
UK is the constant saboteur of the Union. Never willing to leave it, never willing to let the other countries move forward, that we allowed it in the EU was the biggest mistake Europe ever made. Now the UK wants each of 25 countries to have the power to veto any progress of the union forward.
May Westminster roast in an eternal hell. May Scotland and Wales seek back *their* independence, let *them* be members of the EU, and let us drop England who does nothing but spout xenophobic and racist nationalisms against the EU.
And you, RW, who loves a voluntary union of democracies "going to pieces", find comfort in alliances between tyrannies instead. Such that you are, I'm sure that you don't see how the fall of the one will lead to the strengthening of the other.
#3
Thanks for a good laugh Aris! It must be comforting to be so in love with the idea that European integration, as a forced marriage of cultures and nations, will work, as we watch it careering juggernaut-like towards its final, Utopian, destination. You just sit in the back and enjoy the ride while it lasts.
You criticise the "English" as xenophoobic and racist. Interesting and revealing remark. We Brits may seem unenthisiastic to you, but I'd call it simple pragmatism. Note that we weren't alone in walking out of this meeting when the French delegation were discovered trying to dishonestly shoehorn clauses into the Constitution. Does that make the others xenophobes and racists too? Or just similarly outraged victims of deceit? I'd be interested to know how this incident was reported in the Greek press.
#4
RW does have a point. Brussels is way out of control. I love the story about EU beaurocrats running all over the continent and England to make sure that childrens swing sets meet the newly established height requirements as laid down by Brussels....and there's nothing the EU members can do but bend over. Sure this case is trivial, but it's symptomatic of the overall disease: socialism. Aris refers to 'democracies' , but with unelected EUrocrats running the show - how is that democracy?
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
06/08/2003 11:48 Comments ||
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#5
"May Westminster roast in an eternal hell."
That was my favourite bit. Are you reading the works of al Sahaf, or the Juche propaganda manual?
The UK joined the EU (then called the 'Common Market' - my how things
have changed) to be involved in the 'inevitable' trade increase that
would happen with a single market without borders. We sold out our
fishing industry, we betrayed countries who had fought alongside us when
our backs were against the wall fighting fascism in Europe. Countries
such as Australia and New Zealand (in particular - their economy was
very dependent on exports to the UK - all of which were then subject to
tariffs from the Common Market).
We did not sign up to be railroaded into a EU constitution. One that is
designed by a committee, behind closed doors, with people adding parts
designed to remove the power of elected governments by subterfuge. I'm
assuming from your name (and forgive me if I'm wrong), that you're
Greek? If so, then I'm sure your own country signed up for the treaty of
Rome on the premise of better and more open trade deals? Surely not to
have your own democracy becoming subservient to an unelected group of
bureaucrats?
You are familiar with the truly colossal levels of fraud in the EU?
Nothing would give me and many many other people in the UK more pleasure
than to leave the EU altogether. Give us ten years of true capitalist
growth, interference free from those elites in Brussels and Paris and
we'll wipe the floor with Germany and France and any other economy in
Europe (actually we're already the fourth largest economy in the world,
after the US, Japan and Germany, and the German economy is a
basket-case, with structural problems that are not going to go away).
The nature of the world is changing Aris, the large blocs are showing
their age. They belong to another time. That was never so evident as
when the 'coalition of the willing' was formed to do something that the
elites in the EU found utterly distasteful - doing the right thing
(remember Kosovo?).
I don't see why we have to give away our freedoms to unelected officials
who 'know better than we do'. Particularly when they're shown to be
corrupt.
Posted by: Tony ||
06/08/2003 11:56 Comments ||
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#7
Bulldog, forced marriage of cultures and nations? Yes, those 90% of Slovenians were all "forced" to vote YES. Same with the Slovaks, the Hungarians, the Estonians and all those other peoples that voted overwhelmingly in favour of integration. Indeed all those countries whose populations want things that are constantly vetoed by the UK..
"Note that we weren't alone in walking out of this meeting when the French delegation were discovered trying to dishonestly shoehorn clauses into the Constitution."
How can you "dishonestly" present clauses? The UK has been consistently been *much* more dishonest, e.g. wanting the removal of the accurate word "federal" to describe the way competences are administered in the Union. The f-word is anathema for them, even when it's the sincere one. So is the word "constitution" which UK has also hated. And the word "citizen" for that matter. Read some of the amendments that the UK representatives have suggested for the constitution - they are a *riot*.
"Note that we weren't alone in walking out"
Yes, you were. Read the text again.
"Aris refers to 'democracies' , but with unelected EUrocrats running the show - how is that democracy?"
Which unelected Eurocrats? Is that the elected members of the European Council, or the elected members of the European Parliament you are referring to?
Oh, you must be referring to the unelected House of Lords you Brits still have. I agree, they are a disgrace.
"there's nothing the EU members can do but bend over. "
Bullshit.
"May Westminster roast in an eternal hell. That was my favourite bit. "
You've prayed for the destruction of my homeland, Europe. If you are going to be that way, why should I not pray for the destruction of yours?
The treaties aren't allowing us to kick you out, unfortunately. The constitution *does* allow you to leave (despite outrageous lies spewed by several people here), but UK is never going to do so voluntarily. UK allow democratic nations to progress and strengthen ties between them? Never!
#8
Tony, have you read in the press that Blair's apparently leaning towards the "nuclear" solution to the constitution referendum issue, i.e. making it an "in or out" of Europe vote, one which apparently would cause many eurosceptics to either shut up or campaign for us to stay in the EU. Seems like your (and it would be mine in that situation) wish to leave the EU might conceivably come true...
#9
As a Merkin I don't get a vote here (if there are going to be any votes, which is more or less the question) but I will say that I read as much of the draft constitution as I could before lapsing into a coma. Three reactions. First, I have no idea what the words mean. What is "solidarity" and why is it a "value"? Can you be hailed into court for not promoting "solidarity"? Second, anyone who tells the British people that they're not giving up their national sovereignty is just plain wrong. You might as well rename the Coldstream Guards "Chirac's Own" and put the Union Jack in the back of the Imperial War Museum. Third, the whole thing envisions the creation of a vast bureacracy that I think will make Washington look like a small town council.
Posted by: Matt ||
06/08/2003 12:22 Comments ||
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#10
"The UK joined the EU (then called the 'Common Market' - my how things have changed) to be involved in the 'inevitable' trade increase that
would happen with a single market without borders. "
We are not to blame for your self-blindedness.
Common Market? You mean the "European Economic Community". Which like the European Union and all its predecessors from its very start, had "ever closer union" scorched in the treaties as the guiding principle, and clearly said that the economic union was done for political objectives, like peace and unity in the continent. Peace between former enemies.
-----Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,
-----Resolved to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
----Intending to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
And so on, and so on, and so on...
"One that is designed by a committee, behind closed doors, with people adding parts designed to remove the power of elected governments by subterfuge. "
Check the website of the European Convention. The progress is much more transparent than that of any other constitution ever drawn.
"If so, then I'm sure your own country signed up for the treaty of Rome on the premise of better and more open trade deals? "
We signed up for European integration. A common defense and a common foreign policy is currently our number one desire in the union --- something which UK is ofcourse constantly sabotaging.
"You are familiar with the truly colossal levels of fraud in the EU?"
"Nothing would give me and many many other people in the UK more pleasure than to leave the EU altogether."
Nothing would give me and many other people in the EU more pleasure for the UK to leave the EU either.
So why don't you? Is it because you are a bunch of hypocrites who benefit from the EU, even as you whine about your supposed losses?
And you are not only behind US, Japan and Germany, you are also behind France, in GDP, and GDP per capita, also.
"The nature of the world is changing Aris, the large blocs are showing their age. "
The EU is not a "bloc", it's a growing union. And if it's "showing its age", then the way it's doubling its size and greatly enlarging its population, with more and more countries wanting to enter it (except the UK that *pretends* to want to leave it), is a funny way of showing it.
"That was never so evident as when the 'coalition of the willing' was formed to do something that the elites in the EU found utterly distasteful - doing the right thing"
Yet somehow all those "willing" never showed any belief that this was the "right thing" before the US promised them money and aid for doing the "right thing". Indeed it's funny how the populations in all those "willing" states, were somehow *against* doing the "right thing"...
It's funny how the *people* of the EU (with the exception of the Brits yet again) were indeed speaking with one voice, and that the division between the attitudes of the *government* was a division between conservative and socialist government (conservatives in Spain, Portugal, Denmark) or between rich and poor countries (aka countries that needed the US aid countries that didn't.)
But despite the governments differing reactions, all the polls showed that the *peoples'* attitude in the EU was common.
--"We must now build a kind of United States of Europe... the first steps must be a partnership between France and Germany"
Winston Churchill
Somehow "a kind of United States of Europe" seemed to you to indicate "common market and free trade"? Again, don't accuse us for your own blindness.
Solidarity means that when Osama Bin Laden attacks New York, Texas attacks Osama Bin Laden.
Weirdly enough "solidarity" is the one clause UK wants to see remain, though UK wants to limit it to terrorist attacks, and not expand it to cover more conventional kinds of attack.
"Second, anyone who tells the British people that they're not giving up their national sovereignty is just plain wrong."
One retains national sovereignty as long as one has the right to bail out. And the constitution will *reinforce* that right, saying that even if no agreement is reached, each country has the option of leaving the Union after only a two years' notice.
But obviously "sharing competences" and "sharing sovereignty" is one and the same thing.
#12
Aris, firstly, I'll refrain from the personal insults - that's interesting territory but you can have it to yourself.
OK I concede the other delegates didn't physically "walk out" but you're exploiting semantics to avoid addressing the issue. The UK wasn't alone in its disgust at Estaing's underhand tricks. Not reading my post properly, however, you accuse me of having "prayed for the destruction of my homeland". This is odd. I am not generally in the habit of praying for things, and especially not the destruction of continents, and certainly not ones I happen to live in. Who told you I did this?
If you're talking examples of dishonesty then yes, you're right to point to the British government's word-plays. This is a deliberate attempt to delude the public over the true direction of Europe and the ambitions of those at the heart of the project. This will only succeed as a delaying-ploy, and will probably eventually contribute to the demise of the Labour government, or at least its policies regarding to Europe.
An example of "forcing" by Europe? Today's Telegraph comments on the effects of Malta's recent EU membership: broken promises from the EU regarding their representation and influence (of course both have turned out to be far less that they were promised. You don't have to "force" physically. You can coerce, with false promises, outright lies, blackmail...
#13
"however, you accuse me of having "prayed for the destruction of my homeland". "
No, I accuse RW of praying for the destruction of my homeland. Or atleast saying that he'd love to, which amounts to the same thing.
"Today's Telegraph comments on the effects of Malta's recent EU membership: broken promises from the EU regarding their representation and influence (of course both have turned out to be far less that they were promised."
If you believe such lies from the Telegraph, that's your problem.
"Instead of six MEPs, the Maltese will have only four. They won't have a Commissioner."
Bullshit, and bullshit. The Nice Treaty says that they do, and if things change in the European Constitution, then they still won't change until about 2009, and in that case *every* country's MEPs will be decreased.
This is beyond the level of holding a different opinion. The Telegraph outright lies and distorts. The Nice Treaty says exactly how many MEPs Malta will have. If this one day changes, then it's no different from France and Italy (and other countries) losing more than 10 MEPs each, when a rearrangement was made to keep their number to a manageable level...
"With a full-time President of the Council, the chances of a Maltese presidency are nil."
Oh, my, that's even more amusing, given how the UK is one of the countries urginf for a full-time President of the Council, and federalists tend to be the ones that oppose it...
Is this the best you have to show me, Bulldog of European "deceit"?
#14
"Solidarity means that when Osama Bin Laden attacks New York, Texas attacks Osama Bin Laden."
Aris, I'd ask for some kind of explanation (if there is one), but fear yet another lengthy and self-contradictory tirade. For someone educated like yourself your attempts at logical argument are seriously flawed. You say national sovereignty isn't threatened by European integration yet desire the formation of a homogenous superstate where Greece relies on a European army. You accuse the English of being racist, a racist remark if ever I heard one. You state blantant untruths such as your assertion that the constitution drafting process is transparent when this whole thread originated from an article illustrating how even national delegations are tried to be deceived regarding its contents. Your delusional thinking is an example of what's currently so wrong within continental Europe.
#15
Hmmmm Aris, as a Merkin I also have no dog in this fight, but will have to live with the results. I would have to say your personal attacks on RW and Bulldog are inappropriate at best in a policy discussion, and hysterical at worst. I don't see the reason why sovereignty would be deeded over voluntarily to unelected bueaucrats. I could see a successful EU only if it were similar to a U.S. system with a federal government as well as state governments. I see dishonest people with no accountability writing nanny state rules as intolerable, but hey, that's just me. Good thread though guys
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 12:55 Comments ||
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#16
I strongly objected to RW's initial comment and was about to fire a reply but the weather was just too beautiful... now thunderstorms are here.
Well Aris did my job. Yet I think he overstepped the line when roasting the British Parliament. Only the Iraqi information minister has the license to roast anything!
I must say though that I'm strongly irritated with the (rather new?) US hostility towards a greater European Union. Before Iraq that never seemed much of an issue and was actually applauded. But now the Euro has raised its ugly head, right?
United Europe is still an utopy for now. But so was a common market in the 50s, so was French-German friendship before de Gaulle pushed it, so was a common currency. The European Union is a plan, an idea to peacefully and democratically unite countries that might be very different but share common values and know they have to give up some sovereignty for a greater thing. Sovereignty doesn't really mean a lot in this globalized world. What power does a country like Malta really have? They could have opted to stay outside and then? They'd have to follow EU rules anyway in order to sell their products, without having a say.
Could a Maltese ever be president of an European Union? Why not? He or she could very well be a compromise candidate when the big nations can't agree on a French, German or Brit.
Forced marriage of cultures and nations? Nothing is forced and if one country really decided to leave the EU, who could stop it? You thing French or German troops would invade Poland if Poland says, we're better off outside the EU?
If hundreds of cultures and nationalities can live together in New York, why not in Europe? The national borders will lose importance, grown cultural regions will stick closer together, the Catalans with the Languedociens, the Bavarians with the Tyrolese, the Alsacians with Alemannic Germany and Switzerland. People will study, work and live where they like. They and not politicians will make real Europe possible.
Europe without the EU (political and economical) would be a bunch of jealous nations, with petty (or not so petty) conflicts, entirely dependent on the goodwill of America.
And as much as I appreciate the United States.., here is the limit. Germany, Luxemburg or Poland give up sovereignity in order to gain a superior European sovereignty.
The Giscardien project still has a long way to go and Europe will need thorough democratic and bureaucratic reforms. But this means people all over Europe need to care about the European idea.
American hostility actually plays in the hands of the staunchest pro-Europeans. A common identity is most easily sought against a common adversary. The United States would politically and economically dominate 30something split European nations. So much for sovereignty.
The wisest move the United States can make: Accept European unity and form a strong alliance with it on eye level. That's a relationship both sides of the Atlantic can only benefit from.
#17
"You say national sovereignty isn't threatened by European integration"
Actually, I think I said that it's not "surrendered", as long as one retains the right to get it back. "Loaned" perhaps, though I prefer the use of the word "shared".
"yet desire the formation of a homogenous superstate where Greece relies on a European army."
"Homogenous"? No.
"Relies"? 80% of my countrymen desire a common defense and foreign policy. Download the EuroBarometer here and see how the Europeans tend to have a common attitudes about most these matters, and only the British oppose them. Also how the British tend to be among the most ignorant about European matters, and at the same time those who don't believe they need to be any more informed than they already are...
"You accuse the English of being racist, a racist remark if ever I heard one."
Actually I think I accused "England" of doing "nothing but spout xenophobic and racist nationalisms against the EU." Which is true for most of the objections to the EU I've heard, and them evil Germans/French/Belgians that want to shallow up the brave UK nation inside their new Napoleonic/Hitleric dreams of domination, etc, etc...
"You state blantant untruths such as your assertion that the constitution drafting process is transparent when this whole thread originated from an article illustrating how even national delegations are tried to be deceived regarding its contents."
Given how we're not told exactly what happened (other than that the British MP had "a plane to catch") you can hardly claim that this article "illustrates" the deception. Those issues tried to be "snuck in"? It was a discussion from the beginning what would happen if about 4/5 of the member states ratified changes in the constitution but the rest objected. The article in the draft already says:
"If, two years after the signature of the
Constitutional Treaty, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council."
But this is obviously weak!! What does "referred to" mean?? What power of decision does the European Council have? Can the countries that aren't ratifying it be let go from the Union, so that the remaining other nations procede?
"Your delusional thinking is an example of what's currently so wrong within continental Europe."
Awww, didn't you say you'll refrain from personal attacks?
#18
Frankly, I couldn't give two seconds to the mess Europe is heading into, if it didn't affect me, personally. The French vision of the European Union is one diametrically opposed to the United States, simply on principle that anything the US does is not good for Europe (or more precisely, France). France has taken the European Union and attempted to turn it into a wholly-owned French subsidiary, with the avowed intent of undermining United States influence everywhere in the world, whether that action is good for Europe or anyone else. Such egotism is the source of three major wars in the last 100 years, and dozens of smaller ones. I'm getting a bit old to be fighting another idiot's wars - again.
The French have shown, through their actions, that they intend to dominate the European Union, regardless of what anyone else might wish. That is tyranny, pure and simple. The best thing Europe could do is to pull out of the EU, and form something else - without French membership, period. I'm sure the Danes, the Swedes, the Norweigans, the Italians, and perhaps even Germany and Switzerland, have seen enough to know which way the wind is blowing. Surrendering to the French is the first step to total destruction, and the collapse of all of Europe.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
06/08/2003 14:30 Comments ||
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#19
From another Merrican, here's another two bits worth.
The whole idea of calling a system 'democratic' (ask o kyrios Katsaris about the original version of that idea) is pretty funny when a citizen:
votes for a party which writes its own list of candidates, who then
vote for a sort of national legislature, which then
votes for various EU fonctionaires, who then
vote for yet another supranational body who make the decisions and write the decrees.
Howinell is an ordinary citizen to vote to remove any of these rarified members of a governing quasi-nobility if said member turns out to be dealing in bribery and corruption or some other example of moral turpitude (not unheard of in Continental Europe)?
#21
Insufficiently Sensitive> In your Greek, you've used nominative when you should have used accusative.
And I don't know what system you are describing but it's not the EU. The members of the European Council are the democratically elected heads of governments of each of the states. And the members of the European Parliament are also democratically elected and have to vote and approve each piece of legislation. The Commission is the only governing institution which is appointed (by the Council) and approved by the Parliament, instead of elected.
As for your "how in hell is an ordinary citizen to vote to remove" etc, etc, that's why need the President of the Commission to be elected, whether by the European Parliament or the people directly, as several possible amendments have suggested, right?
Are you in favour of such a thing? Because democratization of the Union is one of the things that UK *never* pushes forward...
Old Europe> Can you give us some *concrete* examples of how France plans to dominate the European Union? Concrete examples, please. The vague fearmongering bores me.
After all France has no more votes anywhere than UK does... How can France "dominate" (unfairly) when the UK can't?
Don't see domination, where others see leadership.
Not long after the September 11th attack, some 30,000 Greek soccer fans, attending a Uefa match against a Scottish team in Athens, jeered through the moment's silence held in honour of the terror victims.
The Scots looked on aghast as they then tried to burn the Stars and Stripes in the stands.
[...]
Successive opinion polls have showed the Greeks to be, by far, the least sympathetic of all Euro-Alliance nations to post-attack America.
They have also been the least willing to take action against countries harbouring terrorists.
#24
Aris, it's your continent and the Europeans can organize it as you like. But consider:
The French already refuse to play by EU trade and governance rules that they don't like. Witness their repeated violation of monetary rules, deficit rules and import/export rules. The French are pushing a "United Europe" precisely because 1) they think they can dominate it and 2) they won't obey any rules they don't like.
Further, "United Europe" is going to have massive financial problems in the next 30 years -- the birthrate is low in most European countries, pension funds are coming due, and social benefits are very generous. Who pays for all this? Countries that currently have reasonable financial prospects (e.g., UK) are going to be dragged down by the likes of France and Germany. "United Europe" becomes a ploy by which the UK and eastern Europe pay for the social welfare benefits of France, Italy and Germany.
You ask how France will dominate? Look at how the rules are being set up. Having a superfunctionary council that is essentially unelected allows the member states to be dominated by the beaurocracy. Who has the largest proportion of EUcrats in Brussels right now? Why, France and Germany of course. See where this is going? You don't really think Greece is going to have any option other than to shut up and do as it's told, do you?
Enjoy "United Europe." We in the USA will avoid the socialism and post-modernism that has infested Europe, and in thirty years we'll be so far ahead of Europe (economically and morally) you'll barely be able to see us.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/08/2003 15:14 Comments ||
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#25
This thread has gotten pretty complicated (and as we all know us Merkins like to keep things simple) so let me just respond to TGA briefly. I don't oppose (as if I could) the formation of the EU and will gladly shake its hand at the appropriate moment. I am interested in the technicalities of drafting, however, and it is not clear to me how the Giscard draft will work in practice. A constitution is not a contract and imprecision has its purposes; but for whatever's it's worth I think the Giscard draft, among other things, is just not tight enough for people reasonably to decide on it. Your New York analogy has merit, but I know you do not underestimate how long the formation of the USA really took and how difficult that process was.
Posted by: Matt ||
06/08/2003 15:18 Comments ||
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#26
Yes Bulldog, I read about Blairs 'nuclear' option. He'd better watch out
on that, because looking at Aris' link to EuroBarometer shows that's
it's not certain that he will get his mandate.
Aris, it may say in the fine print 'ever closer union', but is that
phrase ever really explained to the electorates in the various
referenda to join? In that, it means you will lose your sovereignty, you
will lose control over your budgets, which will then be essentially
dictated by the ECB. You may even lose control of your armed forces.
People who voted to join 'The Common Market', 'European Union' or
whatever it calls itself, were voting for better trade and access to the
EU 'single market'. Simple as that (IMHO).
If Greece joined for a common defence and foreign policy then surely the
events since 9/11 and of the last few months in particular must have
been an eye-opener. Greece is part of NATO and that organisation
has guaranteed the integrity of the borders of all countries in Western
Europe over the last 50+ years. Well, that means Americans and I for one
am very pleased and grateful for that. I don't know how well I could
have learnt Russian, but because of NATO and the Americans, I never
needed to find out.
There is much talk about common foreign policies and EU armed forces,
but when you have bureaucrats more interested in making sure that
childrens swings are a regulation height all across Europe, can you
honestly trust these people with the defence of Europe?
'Insufficiently Sensitive' has it right - people making decisions who
are four levels of voting removed from the hundreds of millions (of
effectively serfs) who 'voted' for 'them'.
That is not democracy.
Posted by: Tony ||
06/08/2003 15:21 Comments ||
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#27
OT but... European defence is an interesting issue. Currently, it's a joke, but what does the future have in store? Multi"national" divisions, or national units? Brussels would no doubt prefer the former. A single language will need to be adopted, and the logical choice would be English (which would be ironic were England to be not involved). Would there be conscription?
Would airlift services be provided by the Ukrainians, or the Russians? Cents for Rantburgers' thoughts...
#28
It is extremely difficult to bring so many nations together under one roof. Why is the process so difficult. Because every nation wants its fair share and not be crushed by overwhelming majorities.
Sure we could have it the simple way: One man, one vote, majority rules. Problem is, THAT would really favor Germans and French. Thats where it gets complicated. The US had the same problem, that's why you still can't elect your president directly (with interesting side effects as we know now).
Yes Matt, you are right: It's a long and difficult process. Should we give it up because of that? Why didn't North and South just call it a day in 1861? Couldn't California manage on her own? Hawaii??
I had to live (for a while) in a forced union of states (Warsaw Treaty) before I jumped the fence. No Tony, I don't see the serfdom you envision in the EU.
I don't agree with Giscard's draft but we are a long shot from voting yet.
A lot of American criticism is actually directed at the French (the favorite whipping boy right now). The French do NOT dominate Europe, at least not in the way many Rantburgers think). And the French will have their own reforms in the next years. Bureaucracy... well you'll find a lot of it in Brussels but also in Washington.
Steve, you name some crucial problems Europe has. But people are starting to see them and Germany is on the way to reforms (too slowly given we have a red/green government but that will change). And the more united Europe is the less possibilities for France to play her own games. France does NOT have the majority in Europe, with the UK on board even less so.
And a final word: The word "sovereignty" is thrown around here like we still lived in the 19th century. But we live in the 21st. What does "sovereignty" really mean for a medium sized European country? Economically? Militarily? What can such a country really do on its own (and against others)? European defense could save billions just by streamlining the militaries of so many countries. How many submarine fleets does Europe need?
#29
"Aris, it may say in the fine print 'ever closer union' "
The preamble isn't "fine print". European unity has been a clear objective from the start.
"In that, it means you will lose your sovereignty, you will lose control over your budgets, which will then be essentially dictated by the ECB."
So instead of being dictated by the dollar fluctuations, it'll be dictated by a European instrument? I'll go for that.
"You may even lose control of your armed forces."
Same as with NATO you mean? Except that we don't have any control over NATO which is "dominated" by the US, but we do have some control over EU decisions (which are far *less* dominated by Germany and France).
"People who voted to join 'The Common Market', 'European Union' or whatever it calls itself, were voting for better trade and access to the EU 'single market'. Simple as that (IMHO)."
Then what is the EEA for? And if people who currently vote for the EU just want a common market, then why is Norway and Icelands members of that common market without being members of the EU?
"Who has the largest proportion of EUcrats in Brussels right now? Why, France and Germany of course. "
If you are talking about the Commission (which is the usual instrument that the word "EUcrats" refers to), then no, you are wrong. France and Germany have each always had as many Commissioners as the UK. Once upon a time the number was "two", nowadays it'll become "one".
The High Representative is Solana, a Spaniard. The President of the Commission is Italian. The European Ombudsman is Greek. The President of the Parliament is British, I believe.
Is this French domination? The only Frenchman in a position of authority currently is, I believe, Giskard d'Estain.
And as for France sometimes violating rules, it's then dragged to the European court for it --- and if the Court takes a while to reach its decisions, that's again because the *UK* has from the start always opposing the idea of the European Court being able to easily impose fines on member states! (Because it goes against "sovereignty" see, to have a European court impose fines on member states -- oh, the irony!)
"Greece is part of NATO and that organisation has guaranteed the integrity of the borders of all countries in Western Europe over the last 50+ years. "
Hah! Yes, well, check out the keywords "Imia", "Cyprus", "Denktash", "violations of Greek airspace" and other such nice tidbits... Integrity of borders? Against the Soviet block, once upon a time, yes -- but if ever Turkey moves against us, NATO is immediately dissolved and we're on our own. And since the USA "needs" Turkey more than it needs us... eh, I'll just leave it at that.
So very sorry, if we don't consider NATO alone to be sufficient protection.
"Insufficiently Sensitive has it right - people making decisions who are four levels of voting removed from the hundreds of millions (of effectively serfs) who 'voted' for 'them'."
But they are simply *not* four levels of voting removed. They are just *one* level of voting removed. Insufficiently Sensitive is either insufficientely knowledgeable or insufficiently truthful.
"You don't really think Greece is going to have any option other than to shut up and do as it's told, do you? "
LOL!!! Yes, I do think that Greece is gonna have a lot of options... Greece has increased its power and influence tenfold since it entered the union... It's *outside* the Union that small countries don't have any power whatsoever... Do you think that Bulgaria is currently more potent to forge its own destiny than Greece is?
Greece, that most anti-American of EU countries in its public opinion, nonetheless found the power to weave threads of moderation throughout the EU debates about Iraq - to the extent that alongside Netherlands and (to a lesser extent) Italy, it's probably considered to have been the only moderate powers in this crisis. Where is the prediction for that? Where is the domination, from either side of the equation?
What did Bulgaria did on the other hand? Just fall in line with the poor eastern bloc that seeks EU entry, even as it desires additional American assistance... Do you call *that* independence and sovereignty?
#30
Since I started this whole thing... I want to add something: first and foremost I am a Canadian, but I am also a Polish citizen. This weekend Poland voted overwhelmingly to join the EU. They had to. There was no other choice, as TGA likes to point out. We'll see what the future brings. (Perhaps, TGA, I should start learning German???)
Let me just paste in a quote, that succinctly describes how many Poles feel:
"We must join the European Union," said Kazimierz Gorka, clutching two Polish newspapers. "Of course, it is not such a happy situation, but we have no other choice because all of Europe will be united."
#31
""You may even lose control of your armed forces." Same as with NATO you mean? Except that we don't have any control over NATO which is "dominated" by the US, but we do have some control over EU decisions (which are far *less* dominated by Germany and France)."
You are willing to subject yourselves to a common foreign policy decided by majority decision in Brussels, and you think this represents less lack of control over your armed forces than membership of NATO?
"And if people who currently vote for the EU just want a common market, then why is Norway and Icelands members of that common market without being members of the EU?"
They have no decision making powers, being outside the EU. That does not mean all nations within the EU want superstatedom.
Why was Greece a NATO member if it was so useless? Surely Warsaw Pact membership would have been given Greece tenfold more power?
"Do you think that Bulgaria is currently more potent to forge its own destiny than Greece is?"
Of course. What can be more capable of forging its own destiny than that which is independent? Unless, that is, it is threatened by an overbearing hostile neighbour. But the EU wouldn't be in the business of intimidation, surely?
#32
RW I meant there was no other reasonable choice for Poland. Join the bandwagon or be left behind, it's that easy. But Poland DID have the choice. 82% said yes to Europe.
Or do you think Europe has to stop uniting because Poland doesn't feel comfortable with it?
Should you learn German? It never hurts to know the language of important trading partners (and your neighbor), right? But nobody forces you (yet you know English already and as a Canadian a bit of French, too?).
Do you know that Germans weren't very happy about the Euro a few years ago? Now many can't even remember which color the 10DM bill had.
Poland might want to ask Portugal or Ireland about what the EU did for them.
And re Bulgaria: What does "independence" mean today? Can you explain, Bulldog?
Even rich Switzerland will join one day. If they were allowed to keep their anonymous bank accounts they would probably have already. Because economically they have to follow Brussels if they want to do business with the EU. They might as well have a say in the decisions.
#34
No, explain me, how "independent" Bulgaria would fare? What great things could independent Bulgarians achieve for their country which they cant achieve inside the EU?
BTW they can have all the US bases they want either way.
#35
"You are willing to subject yourselves to a common foreign policy decided by majority decision in Brussels, and you think this represents less lack of control over your armed forces than membership of NATO?"
I'm not certain whether by "you" you mean "you" singular or "you" plural.
Either way, it all depends on what this common defense policy will entail, doesn't it? The way it's being drafted now, every country has the right to not participate in actions it doesn't approve of.
"Why was Greece a NATO member if it was so useless?"
Oh, it wasn't useless. Protected us from invasions from the north, for example. And it helped us with military capabilities, training, so on... Not to mention that it'd be a disaster if Turkey was part of NATO and Greece wasn't.
But that it ain't useless does not mean it is *enough*.
"Surely Warsaw Pact membership would have been given Greece tenfold more power?"
We wanted to remain capitalists, thank you very much?
"Of course. What can be more capable of forging its own destiny than that which is independent?"
And do you really think any nation is "independent" in the modern day world? You make me laugh. Weak countries are never really independent -- but since you are British, I suppose I can't expect you to understand that....
"Unless, that is, it is threatened by an overbearing hostile neighbour."
Or unless its currency becomes a target for speculators? Or unless it's poor and can't maintain proper levels of industrialization and development? Or unless tyrannical forces take it over, binding a nation to the wheel of some twisted ideology, be it nationalism or fascism or whatever?
#36
Poland might want to ask Portugal or Ireland about what the EU did for them.
Yes and they should also read the article Rules are made to be bent, aren't they? in the July 25th 2002 issue of The Economist. Thanks to the "rule" that no country in the Euro-zone can run a deficit over 3% of its GDP, Portugal is now following its European friends into a recession, not to mention risks losing transfer payments from Brussels as a punishment. Not that the big-three (Germany, France, Italy) aren't breaking the same rules themselves, and in the case of France, threatening not to abide by them altogether.
A simple free-trade zone with a common currency would have sufficed economically. I don't know what all this United States of Europe is supposed to be about... the emergence of Homo Europaeus? (a term from the Economist, btw)
#37
"What great things could independent Bulgarians achieve..."
Careful, TGA, you're beginning to sound like Chirac... And do you think "all the American bases they want" really fits in with federalists' plans for Europe's future?
As an independent state Bulgaria would be taking a gamble, but would staying out of Europe would by no means guarantee future economic failure. East Europeans are already complaining about double standards applied by the EU regarding Eastern and Western members.
"Or unless tyrannical forces take it over, binding a nation to the wheel of some twisted ideology, be it nationalism or fascism or whatever?"
Sounds familiar. Europe's best were especially keen on protecting Iraq's independence.
For your information, I have nothing in principle against the EU as a trading bloc. I see no benefit, only undesirable consequences, to be gained from ever closer political integration. I am not, Aris, one of those who live in "England who does nothing but spout xenophobic and racist nationalisms" (who is not a racist). I would have no hesitation in encouraging those from other nations to join if I thought it would be in their long term interests.
#39
"...it would be in their long term interests."
The key being long term economic interests. In the long run, I see the politics interfering with the economics in the EU. And that's where my objection lies, as a Polish citizen looking from across the Atlantic. BTW, if Poland is now part of the EU, does that make me a citizen of the EU as well? I fear another trip to the local consulate in the coming months.
#40
Bulldog, you make a fundamental mistake to believe that the European Union (ex European Community) was founded just for economical reasons. From the start there was a desire to politically and culturally unite as well. You might want to read the Treaty of Rome (1957) again.
And don't misquote me, Bulldog: I said "What great things could independent Bulgarians achieve for their country which they cant achieve inside the EU?" Notice the difference? No cheap Chirac insults, please.
The European Union has made wars or armed conflicts between members unthinkable. I can travel from Spain to Finland without even showing my passport, I pay in the same currency and if I like a place I can settle down there.
I remember the "Europhoria" that the entente between de Gaulle and Adenauer sparked: That was only 18 years after WW2. Many dreams have not been fulfilled, true, but I don't want to imagine Europe without the EU.
RW, my Polish sucks, I could make myself understood with my Russian (acquired in Siberia). But Germany does have many neighbors (more than Poland) and after I jumped the fence I learned English and French. It's true that Germany and Poland do not have the same relationship (yet?) as Germany and France do. One reason might be that in the West the friendship was voluntarily while in the East (East Germany and Poland) it was forced upon us. And the history between the two countries has more tragic moments as well.
#41
Not yet, RW, only in 2004. And no extra trips to your consulate, but your next Polish passport will be red and have European Union written on it (along with your country name and symbol). You'll survive it.
#42
Well my apologies then TGA, I thought your "great things" comment was a sarcastic reference to the limited potential, and hence ambitions, a small nation state like Bulgaria should foster. I suppose no one will tell them they're too small to make a "great" impact alone.
"The European Union has made wars or armed conflicts between members unthinkable."
You think? Which wars did the EU prevent? The existence of the EEC/EU did perhaps limit armed conflict over fish stocks by imposing woefully inadequate quotas on member states, but what other conflicts do you think it prevented?
#43
"Poland might want to ask Portugal or Ireland about what the EU did for them."
Well, Ireland's net annual gain from the EU is approximately the same as the UK's net contribution. We could simply send a cheque to Dublin once a year and cut out the middle man. Ireland is expected to become the eurozone's most expensive country this year.
#45
Bulldog asks, "Which wars did the EU prevent?"
In concert with NATO, we've had a Pax Europa from 1945 to the present day in Western and Central Europe. It's one of the longest war-free epochs on the continent. As an American, I appreciate that. By building trade and common interests, the EU helped bring that about.
I have no dog in this fight. I would suggest that the Europeans here re-read the proposed EU constitution: in contrast to the American one, where the people decide what rights the state will have, the EU constitution has the state deciding what rights the people will have. Bass-ackwards if you ask me.
Aris notes that Greece has increased its influence substantially in the EU as it stands. Only it's going to change with the new EU constitution -- smaller countries will find themselves increasingly subservient. Chirac wasn't kidding when he told the eastern states to shut up and do as their told.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/08/2003 23:32 Comments ||
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#46
I have a special fondness for Greeks, being half-Greek myself. We invented western democracy, medicine etc, etc.
But I am shocked, Celissa, to hear of that soccer-stadium event. Don't forget there are more Greeks living outside Greece than there are in it, and the majority of the expat community certainly doesn't feel that way (in Australia anyway).
Greeks certainly hold no truck with Islamofascists.
But on the topic of the EU: OK, it's good for the little states to get a trading bloc and defence covered. It's good for travellers to not have to apply for 20 visas and hold 20 currencies when visiting Europe.
But they are way out of control with their restrictions. It's beaurocracy run MAD. They demand all their cucumbers be straight. You are not allowed to sell bendy cucumbers. And they have to be sold wrapped in plastic.
Rules such as this are stupid.
The only food that tastes any good now is food grown outside the 'rules' that is organic and local. I had a great big juicy-looking EU peach when I was in England. I so looked forward to taking a huge bite, and when I did I found it was tasteless, woody and dry with a consistency of powdery rottenness.
The tastiest piece of fruit was an organically grown apple, from the UK that conformed to no EU rules.
The UK needs to co-operate with Europe but for godsake keep your autonomy and keep away from having a superstructure of expensive UN-style beaurocrats who will syphon every penny and wrap business in a coffin of red-tape.
#47
Let me see if I understand this correctly.
Aris you state that the UK(if it joined the EU)would not lose it's soverighnity,because it would have the option of leaving the EU with"a 2 year notice".Now,Aris,correct me if I am wrong.
But that sounds an awfull lot like"indentured servitude"to me.
#48
As Aris and the rest of Europe run to urinate away any last shred of human freedom and dignity, we'll get to clean up the mess resulting from their statist corporatism (fascism).
http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
06/09/2003 10:46 Comments ||
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#49
Notice that Aris has transferred his nationalism to "Europe." The whole idea behind the EU is to promote conflict (economic, diplomatic and, eventually, military) between non-member states (specifically the US) and the Union.
ISLAMABAD: President Pervez Musharraf, said today there was no room for "Talibanization" in Pakistan. Islamists controlling Pakistan's conservative North West Frontier Province (NWFP) last week passed a bill to enforce sharia, or Islamic, law in their region, introducing a conservative criminal code that critics say is reminiscent of neighboring Afghanistan's hard-line Taliban regime. "In a changing international scenario, people should project and build Pakistan as a moderate, Islamic, and a democratic state," state-run Pakistan Television quoted Musharraf saying during a meeting with lawyers in Lahore. "There is no room for Talibanization in the country." The provincial government of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal alliance (MMA) of six hard-line Islamic groups also plans to set up a department to promote religious observance. Musharraf also refused to budge on MMA demands that he roll back constitutional changes that increased presidential powers and that he choose between politics and the military.
See if he holds to that position. I think he'll try. I'm not sure he won't change his mind later, when the fundos are pouring into the streets...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 03:03 pm ||
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The Perv gov't reminds me of Noah's ark. It stinks and it's full of wild animals, but it's the only thing afloat.
Posted by: Scott ||
06/08/2003 19:31 Comments ||
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KHANPUR: A woman, who was married, became a victim of acid throwing when a man threw acid on her, after she rebuked him for making advances towards her. According to doctors, Ms Zahooran was in a critical condition even after several days of the incident, having suffered 47 percent burns and may even losing her eyesight. Zahooranâs family sources said, âThe police arrested the brother of the accused Muhammad Shafiq for questioning, but later released him and have closed the case as they belongs to an influential family.â
I feel so tired...
Meanwhile Zahooranâs husband, Allah Bakhsh and father Huzoor Bakhsh said, âThe police has not arrested the accused and they are not listening to our complaint as we are poor.â Later they appealed to the authorities for help and to provide justice.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 01:33 pm ||
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Somebody give these people an AK confiscated from Iraq. Three or four rounds should be sufficient, if the weapon is properly sighted.
The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution was written just to make sure that ALL of us had access to justice, either in the court, or outside it. We need a 2nd Amendment for the entire world...
"Tyranny cannot succeed against an armed adversary". James Monroe, 1802.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
06/08/2003 14:52 Comments ||
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#2
What's with these guys throwing acid on women? Is that in the Koran somewhere or is acid just a too-convenient mechanism for taking out your frustration?
#3
Reading stuff like this...
I have to keep reminding myself that the rest of the world has always been this corrupt. The huge increase in my awareness of it is not due to the change in corruption, but rather the increased availability of news.
The rats have always been there. We're seeing them because we've turned the light on.
If I don't remind myself of this, I find myself thinking of shining the teracandles kind of light on the situation.
#4
Not all the rest of the world, Dishman, but I'll agree that it's a large percentage.
I commented to some friends after September 11th that at least America might now wake up and pay attention to the rest of the world. Of course, they didn't realize exactly what I meant by that...
I'm all for more spotlights. The more the better.
#5
But she is just a woman from a poor family.and under Sharia only a woman can be punished for Adultry(since it's her fault).
Lord in heaven these people are sick!
LAHORE: Police has arrested two men for the murder of a Japanese national, Osamu Mari Kawa, SSP Investigation Wing Shafqat Ahmad told journalists on Saturday. He said the men, Muhammad Afzal and Muhammad Amin, murdered Mr Kawa after snatching Â¥2,200, a travellerâs cheque and a photo camera from him. He said Afzal first strangled him with a piece of rope and later Amin smashed his head with a brick. Mr Kawa was a tourist and it was his third trip in the last three months to Lahore. In March he came to Pakistan from India and stayed at International Inn, Regal Chowk.
I'm surprised. I thought with a name like "Osamu" he had his own turban...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 01:29 pm ||
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I think when you visit a foreign city three times in three months, you stop being a tourist and start being considered a business traveller. Nobody's gonna like Lahore that much.
Question is, what was his business?
Posted by: David Hines ||
06/08/2003 14:31 Comments ||
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#2
Osamu is a common Japanese (male) first name. This story makes it sound like he was killed for $20. Life is pretty cheap sometimes in Pakistan.
Posted by: Tokyo Taro ||
06/08/2003 19:29 Comments ||
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SIALKOT: Sialkot District and Sessions Judge Chaudhry Zafar Hussein while taking to Daily Times on Saturday said the courtâs three bailiffs conducted raids on Thursday. The bailiffs freed 27 labourers, including five women and 10 children, who were forced by brick kiln owners to do forced labour and were kept by them in captivity. The court also issued show cause notices to Motra Police Stationâs Sub Inspector (SI) Nasir Warraich, Assistant Sub Inspector (ASI) Maqsood Ahmed and Police Constables Ghulam Mustafa and Muhammad Aslam for not helping the courtâs bailiff for the recovery of these labourers. The court has summoned these police officials on June 14.
If I had lotsa money, and if I had more convictions than I did obligations, I could organize a band of fascisti and go about the country righting wrongs. If I did, one of the places I'd start would be with guys forcing women and kiddies to labor at a brickworks. But I'm an infidel, so I guess that's why I find the idea evil and blow right by the billboards with babes on them. I guess it works the other way for Islamist brownshirts.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 01:25 pm ||
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Interesting that the court is going after the police who REFUSED to help in the liberation.
LAHORE: Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) and its youth wing Shabab-e-Milli (SM) continued their anti-obscenity campaign on Saturday as rallies were staged and demonstrations held in various parts of Punjab. In Lahore, JI and SM started a public awareness campaign demonstrating in various parts of the provincial metropolis, especially where there are billboards displaying women. Mian Maqsood, JIâs Lahore head, and Bashir Chaudhry, SMâs city head, led the demonstrations.
They're the local Big Turbans...
JIâs Punjab secretary general Azhar Hassan, deputy secretary general Imran Zahoor and information secretary Abdul Wahab Niazi condemned the cases registered against the JI workers in Multan, and asked the government to release them immediately âotherwise our campaign can change its mood, and then the responsibility would rest with the rulers.â
"Since we're incapable of controlling ourselves..."
They said JI had started a public problemsâ campaign and urged the administration to remove all âimmoral and un-Islamic billboards.â They said JI had extended its campaign to June 15.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 01:02 pm ||
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MULTAN: Two hitmen of Lashkar e-Jhangvi (LJ) involved in the killing of Syed Aqeel Haider Naqvi, former manager of Emirates Bank and central finance secretary of Tehrik-e-Jafaria Pakistan (TJP) in 2000 were arrested by the Multan Police. The LJ hitmen Muhammad Asghar alias ButchChitta and Hassan Ahmed had joined a gang of dacoits and were arrested in a drive against criminals by the police. The gang has confessed to commiting 93 dacoities including a Rs 20 million dacoity at the residence of Dr Ghulam Mustafa Pasha.
Multan's the same town they were trashing billboards. That's more "vulgar" than this sort of activity. 93 robberies and burglaries...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 12:59 pm ||
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MULTAN: Multan Police have registered a case against 24 activists of Shabab-i-Milli (SM) Multan including the division president Abdul Wahab Niazi, charging them of destroying road-side billboards and hoardings with images of women advertised on them. Police are conducting raids to arrest the accused. The district police officer (DPO) Multan Hamid Mukhtar Gondal said that no person would be allowed to break the law and such acts tarnish the image of Pakistan abroad.
"Sad laughingstock" was the impression that popped into my mind, first thing...
Rao Zafar Iqbal of Jamaat e-Islami said that law does not allow anyone to spoil the society through vulgarity or using women for business purposes and the drive against obscenity was not a violation of law. Instead, the SM activists were performing the duty of law enforcement agencies.
Brownshirts are the same everywhere, I guess...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 12:55 pm ||
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Shabab-i-Milli-Vanilli? Lip-synching the call to prayer huh?
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 13:00 Comments ||
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Breaking news on MSNBC - no link yet
Quetta - two gunmen on motorcycles attack a vehicle carrying police trainees, killing 11.
Here's the story from Arab Times (Kuwait) ... QUETTA: Eleven police trainees from Pakistan's minority Shiite Muslim community were Sunday shot dead and another nine were injured in a sectarian attack in the southwest city of Quetta, police said.
Wearing the wrong design turban. That's grounds for death in Quetta...
"Two men came riding on a motorbike and opened fire with a Kalashnikov at the vehicle carrying the police recruits to their school at 4.00 pm," Raja Ishtiaq, the officer in charge of a local police station, told AFP. "Ten others were injured in the shoot-out while five remained unhurt," Ishtiaq said. One of the injured later died at hospital, he said. "It is a sectarian attack because all the police cadets were from the Shiite sect," the Deputy Inspector General of Balochistan police, Humayun Jogezai, told AFP.
Tell me again how Islam is so much more tolerant of other religions than we are. I keep forgetting...
"We were returning to Police Training School from our homes after spending the weekend and suddenly two men came on a motorbike and open fire on our vehicle," M. Ali, one of the survivors told AFP from hospital. "Yes it is a sectarian attack because we all are Shiite and ethnic Hazaras," Ali said. Jogezai said police had launched a search for the killers and had sent teams to different areas. "Police have erected barricades at various points in the city and are checking motorcyclists and other vehicles," Jogezai said. The shooting is the second sectarian attack in the region this week. On Friday two armed men riding on a motorbike sprayed bullets at Shiite activist Syed Niaz Hussain Shah, 50, when he was returning home from his office in the city.
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 10:43 am ||
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here it is on AP:
Gunmen Kill at Least 11 Pakistani Cops
QUETTA, Pakistan (AP) - Two gunmen on motorcycles sprayed a group of policemen with machine-gun fire in this Pakistani town near the Afghan border on Sunday, killing at least 11 officers and wounding 9, police said.
The shooting occurred on Saryab road, Quetta's main thoroughfare, said Rehmatullah Khan Niazi, police senior superintendent in the town in Pakistan's southwest.
The policemen were riding in a pickup truck on their way to a training school when the gunmen opened fire.
Police would not speculate on the motives for the attack. However, many of the victims were members of the Hazara ethnic group, who are mainly Shiite Muslims.
Pakistan's population is 80 percent Sunni Muslim, the majority sect in Islam. Small groups of extremist Shiites and Sunnis frequently attack each other.
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 10:50 Comments ||
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"Small groups of extremist Shiites and Sunnis frequently attack each other"
We have simply GOT to get this system going over here. I can't believe we are clinging to the outmoded rule of law, when there is clearly a Better Way.
Please keep killing for Allah, the Almighty, who can't seem to kill enough on His own.
Posted by: Mark IV ||
06/08/2003 15:01 Comments ||
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haha Mark, I love it.
In the tradition of Swift, I say we should introduce A Modest Proposal for the Implementation of Sharia Law in Western Countries for the Betterment of the Poor and the Imposition of Order.
Exiled Iraqi opposition leaders who returned to Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein have been told by the U.S. administration they will not participate in forming a new government. Leaders of seven political parties, including the Pentagon-backed Iraqi National Congress, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraqi (SCIRI) and two Kurdish parties, returned to Baghdad expecting to head a new political regime. Instead of establishing a full interim government, Paul Bremer, the top U.S. civil administrator in Iraq, wants to appoint Iraqis to a council, which will advise the U.S. administration on policy decisions. The decision not to hand over power to the former opposition leaders, means the U.S. will maintain authority in Iraq longer than originally planned. The Washington Post reported one senior U.S. official as saying that tenure could last as long as two years.
Thereby avoiding the mistakes we made in Afghanistan...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 03:21 pm ||
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This is something that actually make sense. We must have fired the state department pukes and hired DoD types to run the country.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
06/08/2003 18:39 Comments ||
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#2
Sounds like we're learning. Or maybe listening to Salam Pax!
Seriously, the boy did make sense when he said:
"funfact of the day: when was the last time the iraqi "man-in-the-street" had the right to express an honest and free opinion about the government's policies?
Answer: 1962 - that is forty years ago. I can only hope that our american friends don't forget to bring extra copies of "Democracy for Dummies" and "Make a Decision: it's not as hard as it sounds" books with them."
We need to start slow there, as we also should have in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Kathy K ||
06/08/2003 19:52 Comments ||
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i wouldnt believe dawn on this - it makes no sense
2 of the 7 "exile" groups arent exile groups at all - the 2 big Kurdish parties. Its not concievable that any representative Iraqi council would leave them out. Which to me makes the rest of the assertion unreliable as well.
Clearly Bremer wants to dilute the power of the 7, and bring more non-Kurdish non-exile individuals and groups in - which is why the delay - its slow developing those groups.
actually whats happening is that NO ONE is forming a new govt - they are forming a council to advise the US instead - theres haggling now about the role and makeup ofthe council.
Sorry, but i dont agree with those who are thrilled with no locally chosen Iraqi govt for as long as possible, and who call for wiping out towns like Fallujah and laying salt. Maybe when you have by the balls their hearts and minds will follow - but not for long, if the experience of the russians in various places, the Israelis, and lots of other situations is applicable (not saying their was choice in each of those situations) To the extent we CAN do real hearts and minds, we'll be much better off. I think Wolfowitz realizes that.
An Iraqi civilian was killed by U.S. troops during an ambush in the troubled city of Fallujah, the military said Sunday. It said gunmen attacked a U.S. patrol with automatic weapons and a rocket propelled grenade late Saturday. Soldiers returned fire and killed one of the assailants, while the other fled. Scratch one Baathist!
None of the U.S. soldiers was injured. ``Pockets of resistance remain in the region between Fallujah and Ramadi and they appear to be coordinated at the local level,'' it said. Fallujah, a Sunni Muslim stronghold about 30 miles west of Baghdad, has been the scene of almost constant clashes since U.S. troops shot dead 18 demonstrators and wounded 78 others in two confrontations in April. More than 1,500 troops from the 3rd Infantry Division were added to the area between Fallujah and the nearby town of Ramadi to prevent unrest and quell the attacks. 'bout time to clean Fallujah out once and for all.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/08/2003 02:34 am ||
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EFL
YANGON, Myanmar (AP) - Myanmar's military rulers lashed out against pro-democracy forces as a special U.N. envoy on Sunday failed for a third day to secure the release of opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi. This was predictable.
U.N. envoy Razali Ismail, on the third day of a five-day mission, has received no public indication that he would be able to even meet with Suu Kyi, who is being held at a secret location following a bloody clash May 30 in northern Myanmar. Instead, the country's intelligence chief and third-ranked leader Gen. Khin Nyunt lashed out at ``internal democratic, freedom-loving destructive elements'' — a reference to Suu Kyi and her National League for Democracy. He said they were undermining the thugs in charge Myanmar's peace and stagnation stability. ``Untoward events occurred on May 30 since some people were misled into following the misinterpretation of democracy,'' he said in a speech Saturday to school teachers in the central Myanmar town of Maymyo. In an earlier speech Khin Nyunt, who met with Razali on Saturday, accused the NLD of corruption and triggering the May 30 violence by seeking a confrontation with the government. Suu Kyi's detention has drawn sharp international criticism and U.S. threats of tighter economic sanctions against Myanmar's ruling junta. But its rulers have remained bloodthirsty defiant. ``With or without foreign assistance, the Union of Myanmar will continue to strive for the emergence of a peaceful, developed and democratic nation,'' Khin Nyunt said. It would emerge faster if you got out of the way.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has said he is ``gravely concerned'' about the detention of Suu Kyi and other NLD leaders. The United States also is demanding that Razali is granted access to Suu Kyi. Washington has tightened visa restrictions against the Myanmar regime, to cover all officials of the government-linked social organization, the Union Solidarity Development Association, said to have orchestrated rallies against Suu Kyi. The Bush administration also said it wants Congress to impose more sanctions. The United States already has some economic and diplomatic restrictions against Myanmar. Worth a try.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/08/2003 02:27 am ||
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Cannibalism is increasing in North Korea following another poor harvest and a big cut in international food aid, according to refugees who have fled the stricken country. Aid agencies are alarmed by refugees' reports that children have been killed and corpses cut up by people desperate for food. Requests by the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) to be allowed access to "farmers' markets", where human meat is said to be traded, have been turned down by Pyongyang, citing "security reasons". Anyone caught selling human meat faces execution, but in a report compiled by the North Korean Refugees Assistance Fund (NKRAF), one refugee said: "Pieces of 'special' meat are displayed on straw mats for sale. People know where they came from, but they don't talk about it."
The NKRAF, an aid body set up in China five years ago which helps to smuggle food and medicines into parts of North Korea off-limits to WFP officials, interviewed 200 refugees for the report. "If a funeral takes place during the day and the burial is performed that evening, the grave may be dug open and the body stolen before morning," said one refugee. Another witness, named only as Lee, 54, said he feared that his missing grandsons, aged eight and 11, had been killed for food. As he searched widely for them, they boys' friends said they had vanished near a market. Mr Lee said police who raided a nearby restaurant found body parts. The business's owners were shot. Gerald Bourke, the WFP's representative in Beijing, said it was difficult for his organisation to substantiate the reports of cannibalism as they were unable to get to the markets. "As in any desperately poor country, it is something we might stumble on," he said. "It's not just a problem for us, but also our donors." Because of the food shortages, many people were having to survive on nine ounces of rations a day - less than half the recommended minimum daily intake.
North Korea's ability to feed itself has been hit by floods, deforestation and lack of farm fertilisers and equipment. The WFP says Japan provided 500,000 tons of food aid in 2001, making it the biggest donor, but sent nothing last year. Food aid from America has been cut from 340,000 tons in 2001 to 40,000 tons so far this year. Washington has pledged to send a further 60,000 tons if Pyongyang lifts restrictions on the operations of agencies such as the WFP.
#1
I know the situation is desperate, and I'm sure that it has happened. But I'm always a bit suspicious of headlines warning of "children being eaten". Is it just me or does this have a whiff of "Marines eating babies" desperation to it?
IGNATIUS Chombo, Zim-Bob-We's Local Government, Public Works and National Housing minister yesterday told rural district councils in the country to âdeal ruthlesslyâ with non-governmental organisations (NGOs) he accused of working against the ruling Zanu PF party. Addressing the fourth biennial congress of the Association of Rural District Councils of Zimbabwe in Masvingo yesterday, Chombo said he was highly critical of some of the NGOs which he said abandoned their business to engage in politics. Chombo did not name the NGOs nor divulge how the councillors were supposed to ruthlessly deal with them.
Perhaps they'll only beat them up...
âI am highly critical of some of these NGOs which come with their aid with conditions attached. It is better not to give people maize than to give us maize with labels telling telling us who to vote for,â Chombo said. âThese NGOs come and confuse our ZANU PF councillors. Please deal with them ruthlessly and then tell us how you will have dealt with them.â
"I mean, we don't want to know where the bodies are buried, but ..."
Chombo also criticised the councillors for not ensuring that money provided by the government for drought relief programmes reached the intended beneficiaries on time. He said: âSome money released in January this year is still stashed in rural district accounts. Why do you keep the money while people are starving?â
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 01:48 pm ||
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Liberian rebels who have pushed to the outskirts of the capital, Monrovia, are threatening to launch a new offensive to take the city if President Charles Taylor does not step down within 72 hours. The rebel demand came Sunday as fighting with loyalist troops resumed on the city's edge. Witnesses said the insurgents tried to take the city's Saint Paul river bridge. Rebel leaders have urged their fighters to respect a cease-fire and stop their advance on humanitarian grounds. Chuck Mr. Taylor has remained defiant, saying the capital will not fall into rebel hands. He said government troops drove the rebels back during fierce fighting Saturday. The offensive is one of the largest the rebels have made on Monrovia since they began their campaign to oust Mr. Taylor four years ago. The latest fighting has jeopardized peace talks in Ghana, which are adjourned until Monday. The talks are aimed at securing a truce to make way for an interim government.
Looks like they're being overcome by events...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
06/08/2003 01:37 pm ||
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That would be another Chuck. I personally plan to fight to the bitter end.
NIIGATA, Japan - A planned visit to Japan by a North Korean ferry was canceled by Pyongyang Sunday after opposition by residents in Japan and a massive security clampdown by the Japanese government. North Korea warned of possible "catastrophic consequences," but the news brought relief in the city of Niigata on Japan's northwest coast. Catastrophic Consequences? - canned Juche speech #23 - not even spittle worthy...
Seems like everything brings "catastrophic consequences" when dealing with the Hermit Kingdom...
Many there had opposed Monday's planned visit by the Mangyongbong-92 after allegations that the ferry, the only direct passenger link between Japan and North Korea, had been used for spying and smuggling missile parts. The ferry used to make the trip to Niigata about twice a month but has not visited since January, when there were noisy clashes between passengers and demonstrators at the dock. "We have heard from the government that the ship is not coming and we are now holding this rally on the basis that we have won," said Toshio Sasaki, one of the organizers of a campaign to oppose the ferry's entry. More than 1,000 police had been mobilized as well as dozens of government officials with X-ray machines and sniffer dogs to thoroughly inspect the incoming and outgoing people and goods when the ferry docked.
NOT SO DANGEROUS
South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun and Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi ended a summit in Japan Saturday vowing no tolerance for any kind of atomic arms program in the communist North. But Roh, speaking in a Japanese television show Sunday, also played down the risk from the North. typical - glad we're moving our troops away from the DMZ - this fool makes it more dangerous every time he opens his piehole
Asked to comment on a survey showing about 90 percent of Japanese saw Pyongyang as dangerous, against 60 percent of South Koreans with similar fears, Roh said: "I think that people are excessively anxious out of line with the facts." Roh said North Korea was weaker than South Korea, and far weaker than Japan. not counting their army and nukes, of course
Counting their army and nukes. I've been seeing more reports that the NKors have taken to eating long pig again and that the songun⢠transport doesn't have gas and spare parts to move a huge army made up of short people with big heads south. Roh's problem is his impulse is to feed the loons, rather than just letting his neighbors continue living as part of one big Alferd Packer social club. That's also not taking into account the tightness of Dear Leadere's wrappings, which could result in an attempt, however failed, to launch that war machine. If he could manage to conquer SKor and keep it, that gives him enough juche fat to live off for another fifty years.
A pro-Pyongyang group representing North Koreans in Japan said the ferry service was called off because of what it called politically motivated provocation. "We can't accept the high-handed steps being conducted with political aims as being inevitable," said Nam Sung U, a vice chairman of the Chongryon group. "The acts ... to prevent Mangyongbong-92 from entering port debase our country's dignity and sovereignty," Nam said, adding that the allegations about the ship were baseless.
Not accepting something implies that you're going to do something about it. If I was the Japanese, I'd show this guy what the penal system's like.
ABDUCTIONS FUEL MISTRUST
The city of 500,000 people, set in one of the country's richest rice-growing regions, is home to several Japanese abducted by Pyongyang in the 1970s and 1980s. The allegations of a nuclear weapons program in North Korea, which emerged last year, have further frayed ties between the two nations. "We are neighbors and we would like to be friends," said 59-year-old Kenichi Takasugi, a local government employee. "But they always do such horrible things."
Could be because they're horrible, y'know. Maybe you don't want to be friends with horrible people?
North Korea slammed the security clampdown it blamed for the cancellation of the ferry visit. "If this means a beginning of "sanctions" against the DPRK touted by the U.S. (United States) and its followers, it will push the situation to an unpredictable phase and bring about catastrophic consequences," said the official Korean Central News Agency. Chongryon's 100,000 or so members, who are mostly descendents of Koreans brought to Japan in the early 20th century as forced labor, use the ferry for trips to visit relatives, often carrying large amounts of cash to the poverty-stricken North.
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 10:59 am ||
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JPost - Reg Req'd. Hamas, IJ back to business
Four IDF soldiers were killed and four were wounded early Sunday after Palestinian gunmen opened fire on an IDF outpost near the Erez checkpoint in the Gaza Strip. Three of the dead were soldiers serving in the reserves and one of the soldiers was a non-commissioned officer. According to initial reports, three Palestinians, disguised as IDF soldiers, infiltrated the outpost around 6 a.m. opening fire and throwing grenades. Two soldiers were immediately killed and two others were killed shortly after. According to a senior IDF officer in the Gaza Strip, the three gunmen, members of the Islamic Jihad, arrived at the Erez crossing together with other Palestinian workers who were on their way to work in Israel. At a certain point, the gunmen left the group, climbed a concrete wall of the nearby industrial zone and hid in a factory from where they initiated their attack. And the rest of the Paleos will whine when Israel doesn't allow them in to work, of course
IDF troops in a nearby military base, hearing the gunfire, arrived at the scene of the attack, identified the gunmen and shot and killed them. Duct tape and handcuffs were found on the bodies of the gunmen, Army Radio said. The radio also reported that the IDF has not ruled out the possibility that the gunmen had intended to kidnap the soldiers with the aim of swapping them for Palestinian prisoners held by Israel. Islamic Jihad, Fatah and Hamas issued a joint statement claiming responsibility for the attack. A leaflet gave the names of the gunmen, all in their early 20s, one from each group. "This joint operation was committed to confirm our people's united choice of holy war and resistance until the end of occupation over our land and holy places," the leaflet said.
Sharon adviser Dore Gold said Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas had committed himself to an immediate halt to attacks on Israelis as called for in the road map, yet the attacks have not stopped. "This must come to an end," he said. The incident occurred some hours after soldiers shot and killed another armed Palestinian in clashes in the southern Gaza Strip. Following the attack the Transportation Ministry issued an order closing the Erez crossing, which is used by Palestinian workers entering Israel. Already before the attack several thousand Palestinians had already entered Israel via the crossing. Reports said that a heavy fog in the area apparently served as a cover for the
gunmen as they approached the outpost. Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz reinstated a closure on the territories late Saturday night, due to warnings of plans to carry out terror attacks, following Hamas' rejection of Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas' ceasefire bid. Time for Abbas to actually do something - talk is cheap. I think a few targetted "militants" at the top of their food chain...a Paleo civil war is the only answer
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 09:02 am ||
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Fox is saying they were all 3 Hamas, not one from each as in the article, that's why I wrote the title that way
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 9:09 Comments ||
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The authorities in Mauritania are reported to have put down an attempted coup. Tank and small arms fire was heard early on Sunday around the presidential building and at the airport near the capital, Nouakchott. There was also shooting around television and radio stations. Government sources quoted by the French news agency AFP say disgruntled elements within the army had carried out the coup attempt and had been defeated. It would be quite a coincidence if the coup plotters didn't have anything to do with the alleged Islamists jugged the other day. If they were, it would be similar to the coup attempt in Qatar by Islamist minded officers that never officially happened.
More info, from AllAfrica.com...
Abidjan: There was heavy fighting around the presidential palace and army headquarters in the Mauritanian capital Nouakchott on Sunday morning as a faction of the army attempted to depose President Maaouiya Ould Sid Ahmed Taya in a coup. Residents in Nouakchott contacted by telephone from Cote d'Ivoire on Sunday morning, said gunfire broke out around the presidential palace at around 1am and had continued sporadically since then. Neither side appeared to be in full control of the situation.
One Mauritanian resident in Nouakchott told IRIN: "I am about 800 metres from the presidential palace and all the streets leading to it are blocked by rebel forces...I can hear continuous bursts of machine gun fire and occasional tank rounds." There rebels had surrounded the presidential palace and were attacking it with tanks and machine guns, he added. The resident said the army was split, but the gendarmerie appeared to be supporting President Ould Taya, who himself came to power in a military coup in 1984. Many people in the street said the rebels were led by a colonel and troops from the military garrison in Atar, a desert town 440 km northeast of Nouakchott.
However, a foreign diplomat in the capital who is following the situation closely said he had no information about who was behind the coup attempt or what kind of political interests the rebel faction represented. "There was a coup attempt overnight and there is sporadic fighting, but my understanding is that President Ould Taya is still in control," he said. The diplomat said there had been fighting at the presidential palace and at the army headquarters, which are less than one km away, but the rest of the city appeared calm. He said it was not clear whether or not the military uprising was linked to a crackdown on Islamic militants by President Taya since the overthrow of Sadaam Hussein in Iraq. Dozens of Islamic radicals and opposition activists were arrested in May and the Arabic language weekly newspaper Erraya was closed down last week for "subversion and intolerance."
Although Mauritania is officially a multi-party democracy, Ould Taya has in practice imposed strong curbs on opposition activities in this mainly desert nation of less than three million people. The main opposition parties boycotted an election in 1997 which confirmed Ould Taya in power for a six-year term. Tension had been growing ahead of fresh presidential elections due in December.
Another followup, different story from AllAfrica.com...
Military movements and heavy artillery fire were reported early Sunday around the presidentâs palace in Nouakchott, but reports from the capital of the northwestern African nation say an attempted coup has failed. President Maaouya Ould Sid'Ahmed Taya and his family are reported to be safe. Taya has been under increasing pressure since the arrest earlier this month of 32 fundamentalist Islamists, whose trial opened last week Nouakchott. The Islamic Republic of Mauritania is one of only three Arab countries to have established diplomatic relations with Israel. According to a witness contacted by phone, the U.S. embassy located close to the presidentâs palace was not attacked during the heavy gunfire, despite earlier reports that the facility had come under fire.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
06/08/2003 02:54 am ||
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That's exactly how it appears... Reuters says it was Islamist officers of an "armored unit" and the Air Force. They are unhappy that the Arab president maintains relations with Israel, and arrested the 32 terrorists.
Interesting place, by African hellhole standards. Freed by France in 1960, went to the popular coup system of gov't., now at least nominally democratic. Moderate, with Arabic, black, and mixed elements.
CNN is now referring to this as a "putsch". I though you needed beer to have a putsch?
Posted by: Mark IV ||
06/08/2003 9:14 Comments ||
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Uh-Oh...Latest news is that the rebels have forced out the Mauritanian leader and he's had to take refuge in the French Embassy.
Battles continue in the area between the insurgents and forces loyal to President Maaouiya Ould Sid'Ahmed Taya. The British Broadcasting Corp. reported that crowds of civilians have taken over government ministries in Nouakchott, and mutineers regained control of the radio station. The rebels are expected to broadcast a statement. A number of reports suggest military and air force units are on the side of the rebels. There are also reports of widespread looting.
Another Islamic hellhole is right Mark
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 12:44 Comments ||
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"had to take refuge in the French Embassy".
It's all over. We can only assume that he wanted to surrender if he went there.
#4
used to be a coup mattered in africa if it caused a country to shift from the West to the USSR, or vice versa. Then they didnt matter at all.
Now they matter again. Mauritania in Islamist hands cant make Morocco, Algeria, or Mali happy. But wait and see what they do. If its only break relations with Israel, no one will really care, except some obscure folks in the africa desk of the Israel Min. of For. Affairs.
At least 19 people in three Midwestern states have contracted a disease related to smallpox, marking the first outbreak of the life-threatening illness in the United States. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, concerned that the illness could spread, issued a nationwide alert to doctors and public health officials to be on the lookout for more cases. "We have an outbreak," said James Hughes, director of the CDC's National Center for Infectious Diseases in Atlanta. "I'd like to keep it relatively small. I don't want any more cases. We're doing everything we can to try to contain this."
The disease, known as monkeypox, usually only occurs in central and western Africa. It is caused by a virus known as an orthopox virus, which is the family of viruses that includes the smallpox virus, a feared biological weapon. Officials said there was no indication that bioterrorism was involved. The disease was apparently spread by a type of rodent known as a prairie dog, which have become popular as pets. The animals may have acquired the infection from another creature, known as a Gambian giant rat, sold by the same dealer of exotic animals. The monkeypox virus causes symptoms that are very similar to smallpox — fever, headache, cough and an extremely painful rash of pus-filled sores that spreads across the body. While much about monkeypox virus is unclear, it is not believed to be as deadly as smallpox. Monkeypox is believed to have a mortality rate of between 1 percent and 10 percent, compared with a mortality rate of about 30 percent for smallpox. The monkeypox virus is believed to spread through physical contact with a sick person or infected animal, or through infected body fluids, although it is not believed to be as easily spread as smallpox, which is highly infectious.
Monkeypox is untreatable, although there is some indication that an antiviral drug may have some usefulness. Because the disease has never been seen before in this part of the world, the severity of the threat is not completely clear. All patients and infected animals have been isolated to prevent spread of the disease. The smallpox vaccine is believed to be protective against the monkeypox virus. The federal government recently launched a campaign to vaccinate thousands of emergency workers against smallpox so the country would be prepared in the event of a bioterrorist attack. "This is an unusual event. As far as we can tell, there's never been a human or animal illness in the community setting in the Western hemisphere by a virus that is either a monkeypox virus or a very close variant of the monkeypox virus," said Hughes, who held a hastily arranged telebriefing last evening to announce the outbreak after CDC scientists confirmed that a monkeypox virus or one very close to it was involved. "We've got a disease that's not been seen before in the Western Hemisphere, so it's prudent to take it very seriously," Hughes said in a telephone interview after the briefing.
Of the 19 cases reported so far, four of the victims have been hospitalized; none has died, Hughes said. The outbreak came to light on May 16, when a 3 1/2-year-old child became ill, according to John Melski, who treated the child at the Marshfield Clinic in Marshfield, Wis. The child's parents had bought two prairie dogs as a Mother's Day present for the child's mother. Both the mother and father subsequently became ill as well, although all appear to have recovered. Officials determined that the prairie dogs had been purchased from a Villa Park, Ill., exotic pet dealer, who also became ill. The dealer also had a Gambian rat, which was ill. It is believed that animal passed the virus to the prairie dogs the dealer was selling. The dealer sold the animals to SK Exotics, a Milwaukee pet distributor, which then sold the apparently infected prairie dogs to two pet stores in Milwaukee and at a "pet swap" in northern Wisconsin. Most of the rest of the cases have been reported in the Milwaukee area, and are believed to have involved people who either worked at the stores or who handled the animals in the stores. Seventeen of the cases occurred in Milwaukee, with one case each having been reported in Illinois and Indiana.
Melski and his colleagues at the Marshfield Clinic contacted state health officials when they identified what appeared to be an orthopox virus in the sick family. State health officials then contacted the CDC, which confirmed the involvement of a monkeypox-like virus yesterday, prompting the nationwide alert and telebriefing. The state of Wisconsin has temporarily banned the sale of prairie dogs. "The full impact is hard to predict," said Seth Foldy, Milwaukee's health commissioner. "Our goal would be to isolate and eliminate the virus from both human and animal populations to the best of our ability. We do not know if it is the kind of agent that would or could thrive in North America, and we're not very interested in finding out that it is." Further tests are planned to confirm the identity of the virus. The outbreak comes as the global epidemic of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) appears to be coming under control. "This is yet another reminder of why it's important to learn as much as you can about diseases that occur in faraway places," Hughes said. This is nothing to fool around with. Monkeypox could be used as a bioweapon if modified by gene engineering. Mostly found in the Congo and central Africa, this is the first outbreak in the US. It bears close watching. Fortunately, spread via person-to-person contact is less a problem than with smallpox. Moral to Rantburg readers: stay away from Gambian rats, especially sickly ones.
Coincidentally, last time we saw an outbreak of monkeypox — though I haven't been tracking diseases per se — was in NWFP, almost exactly a year ago. MedPundit had a discussion here on that outbreak...
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/08/2003 02:47 am ||
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This is the disease that "ER" used for its big quarantine plot line.
Since is is West African, can we blame Charles Taylor for it?
#2
We are getting plants and animals from all over the world, with most americans not aware of or caring about the diseases or pests the exotic plants and aminals may carry. The big problem is that people who are in the business care only about how much "product" they can sell and how much their margin of profit is going to be. As long as idiots can import (and sell) irresponsibly, and an ignorant and uncaring population will buy them, then we can expect more of these outbreaks until we get hit with one that will kill or incapacitate most of the population. Terrorism? We have met the enemy, and he is us.
Cuban President Fidel Castro did not speak at a political rally Saturday protesting U.S. policies toward his island nation, but told reporters afterward he would have plenty to say in the coming days about recent events. Another stemwinder coming up!
The 76-year-old leader said after a government-organized rally in a Havana neighborhood, ``In these days, there will have to be a lot of talking and talking and talking, and the unmasking of many.''
Sounds like purges coming...
Apparently referring to the European Union's recent announcement it was reviewing its policies toward Cuba, Castro said, ``We are wondering why we got the first word from the news cables.'' Because your phone system sucks.
The European Union said Thursday it was beginning a review of its relations with Cuba after the Castro government's recent crackdown on dissidents on the island - sentencing 75 people to prison terms of up to 28 years - and the firing-squad executions of three convicted hijackers of a ferry. The activists were accused of being mercenaries working with the U.S. government to undermine Castro's government. The dissidents and American officials deny the allegations. The 15-nation bloc said it was ``deeply concerned about the continuing flagrant violation of human rights and of fundamental freedoms of members of the Cuban opposition and of independent journalists.'' EU members unanimously agreed to cut down on high-level governmental visits and review relations overall. Wonder how long it will take for the French to violate this one?
Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque said Friday the EU bloc had not sent Cuba a copy of the document carried by news organizations. He also said the EU ``has been incapable of formulating its own policies toward Cuba'' and had ``given in to American policies.'' Less than two months ago, the EU opened a new office in Havana that officials hoped would improve and deepen relations between Europe and the communist-run island. Congrats, Fidel, you found their limit!
A temporary limit. Euroattention spans are short...
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/08/2003 02:31 am ||
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#1
Say what's Danny Glover and Oliver Stone's take on Castro again? A "great man"?
Posted by: R. McLeod ||
06/08/2003 2:43 Comments ||
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Frankly I was very pleased to see Glover canned as an MCI spokesman. Damn shame he's such an anti-American asshat fool, I liked several of his movies
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/08/2003 9:15 Comments ||
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Look for Hollywood retards to be crapping their pants!
He is their hero, after all.
Less than two months ago, the EU opened a new office in Havana that officials hoped would improve and deepen relations between Europe and the communist-run island.
Just give the Eurocrats some time. All of the continent -- and the UK if they can get it -- will be a "worker's paradise" like Cuba.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
