From Arab News:
The Kingdom has arrested a group of militants planning terrorist attacks against Saudi targets and seized large amounts of arms and explosives, it was announced yesterday. âA terrorist cell of 16 people was uncovered and arrested. Security forces were able to foil a terrorist plot planned against vital Saudi installations and targets,â an Interior Ministry official said. The arrests took place in Riyadh, in Al-Qasim north of Riyadh, and in the east of the country, where security forces searched hide-outs in farms, rest stops, and residential homes, the ministry official added. No mosques?
A Western diplomatic source in Riyadh told Arab News last night that the arrests took place over the past three days, and that the Saudi security forces were able to pinpoint the terrorists and their location with the help of sophisticated satellite surveillance equipment, introduced since the May 12 bombing attacks in Riyadh. Humm, now I wonder who could be providing that?
The source added that information received from Al-Qaeda suspects now in custody almost certainly facilitated the latest crackdown. WHACK! "Ouch, OK, Iâll talk!"
Saudi Television, which broadcast the ministry officialâs statement, showed footage of automatic rifles, weapons, binoculars, mobile phones, surveillance cameras, bullet-proof vests, passports for several nationalities, forged identity cards, cars, motorcycles, audio tapes, computers as well as cash collection boxes. Saudi television also said the chemicals and weapons were found in Riyadh, in the Eastern Province and in Al-Qasim. âA number of bags filled with more than 20 tons of chemical substances to make explosives were found hidden underground,â the ministry official was quoted as saying. The ministry official did not give details about the latest planned targets but said security forces were still tracking down other suspects. Thatâs nice, weâre still waiting for trials and executions.
This is the largest bust by Saudi security forces since they uncovered a 19-member terrorist cell in Riyadh on May 7 and seized large quantities of weapons and explosives. Saudi police have launched a nationwide crackdown on suspected militants following the May 12 suicide bombings of Western residential compounds in Riyadh that left 35 people dead, including several bombers. The Interior Ministry earlier announced that more than 128 suspected militants had been rounded up in the campaign which covered Makkah and Madinah. The crackdown also netted 538 kilograms (1,183 pounds) of plastic explosive, 131 grenades, 216 automatic rifles, 11 guns and a large quantity of ammunition. A number of militants, including leading suspected terrorist Turki Al-Dandani, were killed in clashes with police. Dandani was second in a list of 19 militants wanted by Saudi Arabia in connection with the Riyadh blasts blamed on the Al-Qaeda terror network. The mastermind, Ali Abdul Rahman Saeed Al-Faqaasi Al-Ghamdi, surrendered to Saudi authorities last month. Ten people on the list published by Riyadh remain at large. Saudi leaders have vowed to clamp down on suspected terrorists, their ideologists and supporters in a bid to rid the Kingdom of terrorism. Weâre watching.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 9:23:39 AM ||
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#1
Humm, now I wonder who could be providing that?
Couldn't be a Saudi spy satellite: their religion forbids graven images, you know. I think that will help narrow down the possibilities!
#2
"the Saudi security forces were able to pinpoint the terrorists and their location with the help of sophisticated satellite surveillance equipment"
Could also just be a story to cover a double agent, or a captured terrorist who's talking....
gawd I love intelligence mind games....
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
07/22/2003 11:44 Comments ||
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#3
I agree; the satellite story is cover. One of the princes has probably turned.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/22/2003 12:28 Comments ||
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#4
OR it's all just bullshit. The Saudis are not above rounding up their own enemies, those who've made it onto the Royal Shitlist, and tell us they're Al Qaeda. I wonder just how much access the Fibbies or CIA have actually had to these people... Not playing conspiracy games, just considering the nature of the Saudi beast, whose most identifiable traits are deceit, duplicity, and complicity - and whose most identifiable effect on the world besides selling oil is to use much of the proceeds to foster and spread intolerance and virulent hate, worldwide.
#5
Or if you buy into the theory that the Saudi royals are just as committed to destroying the West as al Qaeda, then the conservatives are taking out a few of the radicals in an adjustment of tactics. I think that al Qaeda has outlived its usefulness to the House of Saud. The royals are having more success through demographics and prosletization. Their future tactical model will be infiltration, reproduction, intifada, and prosletization (by preaching at first, later by means of the sword and the jizya).
#6
11A5S >>> I agree, time is their best weapon. OK, so are those baby production machines, manportable, 1 each.
Posted by: Paul ||
07/22/2003 14:34 Comments ||
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#7
Paul: Man-portable and self-guided! Seriously, the women are one of the Islamists biggest weaknesses. Birth rate always goes down with education. We need to educate them and get them out of the scarves as badly as the wahhabis need to keep them illiterate, barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
A Yemeni court on Monday rejected an appeal by a suspected al-Qaeda militant sentenced to death for killing three US missionaries. Abed Abdul Rezak Kamel, 30, was convicted in May over the Dec 30 slayings at a Southern Baptist missionary hospital in Jibla, southern Yemen. The court found Kamel shot to death hospital director William E. Koehn, 60, of Kansas; purchasing agent Kathleen A. Gariety, 53, of Wauwatosa, Wisconsin.; and Dr Martha C. Myers, 57, of Motgomery, Alabama. A fourth missionary, pharmacist Donald W. Caswell, 49, of Levelland, Texas, was wounded. Monday's court hearing rejected the appeal filed by Kamel, who claimed the conviction and sentence violated Islamic law. Kamel claimed he killed the missionaries because he believed they were converting Muslims to Christianity and that the hospital was sterilizing local women.
Well, of course. Either offense would call for a death sentence, to be carried out by anyone who felt like it at any time. That's reasonable, if you own a turban...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 08:15 ||
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Good ol al-Qaeda warrior. Mohammed is boinking a virgin in support and allah is stoked
Edited for brevity.
Tony Martin, the farmer who killed a criminal who broke into his house, has been denied a preparatory home visit before his release on parole next week because he is considered to be a "danger to burglars". This is a bad thing?
In a meeting last week with the wing governor at his prison and Annette Stewart, his probation officer, Martin was told that he had been refused a trial three-day home release because the authorities felt that he might reoffend even during that short space of time. "Reoffend" = "Have the audacity to defend himself from violent attack"
It is normal practice for prisoners awaiting release to be given a few days outside to introduce them gradually to the prospect of regaining their liberty. It had been thought that Martin had previously not been given the home visit because of fears over the security of his property. Concerns have been raised about Martinâs safety after his life was threatened by friends of the teenager he killed.
Ms Stewart has previously written a report on Martin which was submitted to the Parole Board before its ruling in January. In it she said that Martinâs support base in the country had made him more likely to reoffend. "This is a case which has attracted immense and ongoing media attention and public interest," she wrote. "I believe this has had an impact on Mr Martinâs own perceptions of his behaviour and his right to inflict punishment on those whom he perceives to be a threat to his own security. Indeed this may have contributed to his justification of the offending. This encapsulation of his views has served to disallow any rational contemplation by Mr Martin of his crimes and he does not express any remorse for the death of one so young." If youâre being viciously attacked by someone younger than you, you should just laugh it off as youthful hijinks.
Martin was convicted of murdering Barras, 16, and wounding his accomplice, Brendan Fearon, 33, during a burglary at the farmerâs home in Emneth Hungate, Norfolk, in August 1999. This was reduced on appeal to manslaughter. He became eligible for early release last autumn, at the discretion of the Parole Board, after having served half of his sentence. There is a Support Tony Martin website to free him, but Iâd also like to see him free, if he wishes, to emigrate to the US where his right to self-defense will be recognized and respected.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 10:52:01 AM ||
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#2
that guy fearon is actually suing claiming that Tony Martin ruined his sex life when he shot him.
There was a program on the BBC (yes that commie entity) last night Real Story about just this subject. There is an increasing number of criminals claiming that since burglary is their work they have the right to safe working conditions and increasingly end up suing their victims. What complete utter Fucking Bullshit I know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the European court of human rights would actually agree.
#3
First of all, the guy Martin shot wasn't just a burglar, he was a Cat Burglar. And very handsome. Cat Burglars are very honorable. His accomplice, the Fearon chap, is a highly skilled safe cracker and those guys are hard to replace. You let this cowboy Martin go what sort of message are you sending to the public. I say "rot in rubbish you gun slinger, you killed a Cat Burglar!"
#4
I can see the TCU in Britain organizing the criminal element now. I find this whole story amazing. And, perhaps I would gain a small measure of satisfaction if Ms. Stewart were mugged.
Posted by: Jim K ||
07/22/2003 11:43 Comments ||
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Groovy horrorshow! Clockwork Orange has arrived in Jolly Old England thanks to Ms. Stewart and the British "justice" system. Mebbee Alex and his pals could have a go around with Ms. Stewart.
#7
It must be noted that the Tony Martin case has reinvigorated the question of self-defence against criminals.
I don't know why the verdict was reached but the case of the Columbian diplomat found not guilty of the murder of a mugger may be relevant.
Posted by: A ||
07/22/2003 13:47 Comments ||
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#8
Hey, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here. The U.N. is trying to outlaw guns in the US, and the Dems are fighting tooth and nail to keep Judicial Activism in play, so they can bring this type of enlightened jurisprudence to a courtroom near you.
How come no comment from Bulldog? Is he OK, or has he been jailed for unlawful possession of an opinion?
#10
Makes me glad I live in Texas (motto - make sure the entry wound is in the front before calling the cops).
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 14:20 Comments ||
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Heh, Hodadenon. Nope, I'm still here. Too ashamed to comment... His parole officer says Martin might re-offend... He's being sued by a man who entered his home to steal his property... What can you say?
#12
Remember,though,the man responsible for this shit is none other than Tony Blair.UK is not a federal state like the US,nor is government power tempered by an elaborate constitution of checks and balances like yours.If Blair and the Labor Party wanted to change the law,they could do so anytime.
Posted by: El Id ||
07/22/2003 14:23 Comments ||
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Bulldog - No sweat - it's not your doing - we know you're a smart and principled man who can tell shit from shinola. You'd be welcome in the Colonies. And the chicks would go for your accent, too. Don't underestimate the value inherent in being different from the average!
Steve - and if he crawls out the front door, just drag him back inside, shoot him again, and hose off the walk & porch. Wait for it to dry - one cup of coffee is about right. Then call cops.
One point being that he in one sense could be considered a political prisoner.
--In it she said that Martinâs support base in the country had made him more likely to reoffend. "This is a case which has attracted immense and ongoing media attention and public interest," she wrote. --
#15
And don't forget it is the Australian PM, John Howard who disarmed the country a few years ago. He is on record as saying it it unacceptable for an Australian ever to use a gun to defend himself.
But the little turkey is a lawyer and unfortunately, way the best political choice we have right now.
Posted by: Aussie Mike ||
07/22/2003 18:39 Comments ||
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And don't forget it is the Australian PM, John Howard who disarmed the country a few years ago. He is on record as saying it it unacceptable for an Australian ever to use a gun to defend himself.
But the little turkey is a lawyer and unfortunately, way the best political choice we have right now.
Posted by: Aussie Mike ||
07/22/2003 18:39 Comments ||
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The NRA's monthly magazine has been following this case and "self-defense" in the UK. The standard is : no defense; if attacked, just fall down and let them beat the crap out of you! Would Martin be kept from even visiting the USA because of his "criminal" record?
This is so "inside baseball", but Iâm a Yank. EFL. Geoff Hoon, Britainâs defence minister, personally authorised the media strategy that led to the unmasking of the bioweapons expert whose suicide has set off  Tony Blairâs most serious political crisis since coming to power, government sources said on Monday night. The Ministry of Defence strategy will be the prime focus of the judicial inquiry that the UK prime minister has called into the fate of David Kelly. Lord Hutton, the judge heading the inquiry, will interview government ministers, likely to include Mr Blair and Mr Hoon, to trace the chain of events that led to the death of Mr Kelly, named by the BBC as the main source of a news report alleging the government exaggerated intelligence to strengthen the case for war in Iraq. Mr Kelly, a former United Nations weapons inspector who worked for the Ministry of Defence, has been branded the scapegoat in a dispute that threatens to destabilise the government and the BBC. The media strategy was drawn up, sources say, after Mr Hoon received a rebuff to his formal request to the broadcaster that it confirm in private that Mr Kelly was the source. Mr Hoonâs direct involvement in the handling of Mr Kelly means that he could be forced to resign if an independent inquiry by Lord Hutton, who sits on Britainâs highest court of appeal, criticises Mr Kellyâs treatment. Wonder if Lord Hutton will even mention what the BBC did.
Officials in Mr Blairâs office insisted on Monday that the MoD was the lead department in handling Mr Kellyâs case. But the admission from the prime ministerâs office that it was consulted by the MoD over the weapons scientist could spread the fallout to Mr Blair himself. Mr Blair again rejected calls for the inquiry to look at the use of intelligence in the build-up to war in Iraq. "I think it is important that he does what we have asked him to do," the prime minister said. But Lord Hutton made clear that he was in sole charge of the inquiry, saying he would act independently of the government and conduct most of the hearings in public. "I make it clear that it will be for me to decide as I think right, within my terms of reference, the matters that will be the subject of my investigation," Lord Hutton said. Mr Blairâs call at the weekend for a period of reflection and restraint went largely unheeded as politicians and commentators sought to apportion blame for a death that has shaken the political and media establishment in the UK. Seems like the BBC ought to be whacked for this, not Mr. Blair.
The Brit left seems to smell blood in the water. This doesn't strike me as a serious episode — so it would seem I'm missing something because I don't know the rules of the game.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/22/2003 12:34:24 AM ||
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#1
The Financial Times and the Blitz Bros as authors of this Cover-the-BBC's-Ass story should be whacked, too. I note that there is no direct link to comment on the story - but I'll send the FT editors an email anyway. What whores.
#2
Lord Hutton should oversee a rigorous and impartial inquiry; I wouldn't expect kid glove treatment for either party. It seems at the moment as if both sides here will be apportioned blame. The BBC for its trumpeting of an anti-war story based onthe allegations of one man, and possibly either embellishing that source's information or reporting what may have been said off the record. Kelly may, of course, have indeed said exactly what the BBC reported and thus lied to the Commons inquiry (hence the apparent suicide).
For the Government, the stakes are higher. Blair himself will testify at the inquiry, and there will no doubt be hard questions concerning the validity of Kelly's original allegations.
Those of you who don't live in the UK no doubt regard Blair as a great international statesman. Clinton was considered to be a great statesman outside the US in his time, too. Domestically, Blair's policies are considerably worse for this country than Clinton's were for the US.
#3
I don't understand how either party can be held resposible for Kelly's suicide.If anybody(and I am reaching)it would be his family for not getting the guy help.
From what I heard reported Kelly had been terrablly depressed for weeks,he walked outside in a very cold rain with no foul weather gear.But his family were not concerned enough to even follow him,let alone call emergecy services.
Bulldog,I do consider Tony a great man,I'll leave opinions on his domestic pollocies to those who live in Britain.
#4
Raptor, the inquiry won't simply be looking into why Kelly topped himself, but to investigate the "circumstances surrounding" his death. If it is found that he did indeed take his own life, there may be be a range of factors, both personal and professional, which influenced his decision. You can read Lord Hutton's short statement regarding the terms of his inquiry here.
I had not heard that Kelly had been depressed for a long time. In fact, I have heard that his wife never considered him to be depressed, merely stressed. His actions until he left the house did not suggest suicidal intent, and nor has there been any mention of a suicide note.
And it's not possible he walked out in very cold rain. On Thursday and Friday, I was less than 20 miles from where his body was found, it never rained, and it hasn't been "cold" here in the south of England for months! In fact, this has been one of the warmest Julys on record. He was a keen walker, and often passed by the wood in which he was discovered. It is odd that his family (probably only his wife was 'at home') didn't report him missing until almost midnight when he'd left the house in the mid afternoon, but this doesn't mean no one cared what happened to him.
#5
I listened on C span radio to Blair's address to Congress. I wish, I wish, I could vote for him. (and i think some of Clintons multilateralism and nation-building would do us some good now - and that his domestic policies of welfare reform and balanced budgets have left us stronger= perhaps Blair is less competent than Clinton in implementing 3rd way domestic policies - I cant speak to the EU questions, we have no equivalent here)
#6
and let me say further - i understand that the Bulldog and his fellow Conservatives have every right to vote against Blair based on his european and domestic policies, especially since they beleive Ian Duncan Smith will follow similar policies in the War on Terrorism (though its unlikely he will be as effective politically on that front in the UK, and certainly in the US as Blair has been) JUST AS I HAVE THE RIGHT to vote for a Democrat based on domestic issues, given that i will only do so if its a Dem who will follow a hardline in the WOT. However I will also say that i disagree with those in my party who are attempting to make a big issue of the WMD/intell story - they are missing the point on Iraq - 1. Iraq was in violation of 1441.
2. That given the danger of the Iraqi WMD post 9/11, it would have been unwise to wait for perfect intell 3. That even if we were wrong, we have eliminated a terrible regime, and taken the first step to "draining the swamp". And if I criticize the Democratic party for such misunderstanding, I see no reason to give the UK Conservative party a pass. And if one wishes to defend the UK Conservative party as merely concerned with the Blair admins tendency to spin and "lie", then I see no basis for not making a similar defense of US Dems, who have the further excuse that this admin came to power attacking Al Gore for quibbles like "no controlling authority". I see no basis for defending the Tories that doesnt apply at least as strongly to the Democrats, and no basis for justifying the attacks on Tony on this issue that dont equally justify the attacks on Bush.
#7
BTW kelly was found with his wrists slashed. If that was soemthing done TO him, one would expect signs of struggle, which AFAIK were not found. This can't be an accident - if its not suicide its a homicide - and if its a homicide, its a VERY Professional operation - AFAIK no covert operatives in the cold war ever managed to fake a suicide by wrist slashing (as opposed to jumping, pills, gunshot, etc) I'll look forward to the inquiry, but innuendo that this was not a suicide strikes me as in the Oliver Stone category right now.
#8
Fred and LH, It's not only the left who are gunning for Blair, though they are more brutal in their approach and their motivation. To the left, Blair 'sold out' to the US and took Britain to an 'unjust' war, an act which ultimately confirmed him in their eyes as a traitor in their midst. They've forgotten they owe their party's success to him, and desperately wish to retake the wheel of the Labour party and turn their ship hard a-port. To the right, Blair's support for the US before and during the Iraq war was applauded, in the main, but nothing more in substance than the Tories would have done had they been in power. Yes, Tony did good, but only would have expected from a patriotic PM. However, Blair has no intention of standing for another term, in two years' time, so there's no rush to push him out by the Tories. With Blair gone, a new leader would have two years' grace in which to establish him or herself and exorcise the Labour party of Blair's increasingly unpopular ghost. Don't expect the Tories to be baying as loudly as the Left.
The future under Blair (and that's what's important) is bleak. How long would you applaud Blair once the EU constitution was ratified and the UK's foreign policy was subsumed to a common attitude formulated by consensus in Brussels? At best, Europe's influence will be neutralised; at worst, the US will have lost its highest profile and most effective international ally.
The Tories are emerging as a viable alternative geverning party one again. Their leader, IDS, is opposed to the EU constitution and the organisation's political direction and is calling for a referendum on the issue before ratification. Tony Blair wants to ratifiy without public consultation. Ask yourselves: if you were a UK resident, who would you be supporting?
#9
LH, Little detail has been released about Kelly's death, so "innuendo" is fair game at the moment... I wouldn't expect anything less than extreme professionalism from those who would benefit from Kelly's silencing, so I'm happy to indulge my imagination. Especially regarding the case of a man reportedly convinced of the existence of "many dark actors playing games"... ;)
#11
extreme professionalism - well yes, but the ability to fake a suicide by wrist slashing??
Many dark actors playing games - evidence of a conspiracy, or evidence to Mr. Kelly's mental state?
#12
IIUC, for a struggle-free wrist-slashing, all you'd need is an unconscious subject. I'd suggest it's premature to rule out non-suicide as a possibility.
#13
"To the right, Blair's support for the US before and during the Iraq war was applauded, in the main, but nothing more in substance than the Tories would have done had they been in power. Yes, Tony did good, but only would have expected from a patriotic PM"
Well given the nature of public opinion in UK throughout, I certainly think its unlikley a Labor PM other than Blair would have done so, and I note that there were a few tories opposed as well. Smith might have supported the war,but i dont know if we would have been as relatively successful in swinging British fence sitters as Blair was. I am quite sure he would have been far less influential in the US. Blair made a big difference in US opinion, especially elite US opinion, at several key points. You wont hear that in this forum, where the lack of confidence many Americans have in Dubya as a statesman is either not taken seriously, or is expressed by trolls.
As for Europe - I dont know - as an American Im not at all sure we have decided what we want - do we see Europe as an ally, with a UK voice within it making it more genuinely one, or do we see Europe as necessarily a rival, and want it as weak as possible? If UK remains independent, but Italy, Spain, Denmark, the Netherlands, Poland, Hungary, and Czecho are subsumed within it is that a victory for the US? I think not. And those nations are NOT going to stand aside from Europe, whatever the UK does. OTOH if UK is IN Europe, they may collectively have enough clout to make the EU something other than a Franco-German consortium - and indeed give Germany a more viable alternative to France. So if the EU question is about geo-politics, and not about the socio-economic policies likely to come from Brussels, Im not at all sure the issue is clearcut. Thats from a US perspective - i might have a different perspective as an Brit - i might be British nationalist - or I might be a "good European" or I might be a Scottish nationalist - so i dont know what perspective i might have. I am however an american, and not a unilateralist/Jacksonian, and so my perspective is shaped by that.
#14
Ok,Bull.You are there on the scene(so to speak)and would certainly know more than I.But I could swear I read about the depression and rain somewhere.
#15
would he know more than you, Raptor? (other than about the weather, i mean) the BBC article he linked to cited an email quoted by the NEW YORK TIMES, which was an American paper last I heard.
The Beeb did not quote the email in full - Im not sure if the Times did. Given my level of confidence in the Beeb and in the (NY)Times, I'd call this a weak reed. They focus on his "combative" tone - well let me tell you, some one suffering from depression can have swinging moods, including combativeness, and suicide can come as a sudden impulse. And no secret agencies need be involved for that to be true.
#16
let ma add some innuendo - if its possible that some in the UK govt might have wanted Kelly dead, its virtually certain that there are some in the BBC (and its allies in the NYT) who would like the focus now to be on the possibility that Kelly was murdered, and not on the BBC's actions.
#17
LH, Your attitude is, as you acknowledge, different from mine. You see Blair as an asset to the US. He has been. A short term asset. He's been a short term asset to global common sense, but his time of usefulness is over. If you desire to see Blair remain in power in the UK ad infinitum (diminishing power though that will be), solely for the benefit of the US and the WoT, whilst he continues to wreak havoc with his home country, I hope you will understand that we will have to agree to differ.
Your suggestion that the UK wade deep into the muddy waters of EU federalism in order to try to wrestle for influence makes no sense whatsoever to me. Would you be happy for the US to surrender its independence and sovereignty, its dollar, its government, its laws and its foreign policy, by joining a union with all the Americas, in a one-way gamble to try to exert more influence on them?
Public opinion in the was not anti-war throughout. Soon after combat began opinion polls revealed a majority in support of the action. AFAIK, that hasn't changed. Of course, had Blair not stood firm and pressed ahead, public opinion probably wouldn't have changed. The Tories were far more supportive than Labour, and had the UK had a Tory government, the position of the (probably) less charismatic Tory leader would have been stronger at home. For the US to have as an ally: a weak Blair or a strong Tory leader - balances out somewhat, I think.
And I am well aware the Beeb link referred to an NYT story - I tried to trace the NYT article but the search engine they use is a piece of c***. I didn't have the time to track it down when my search string pulled out just about every available online article. His wife doesn't claim he suffered mood strings - she says he was never depressed, in her opinion! I am not saying I believe MI5 or anyone else was responsible for Kelly's death, in fact I think it's far less plausible than the straightforward suicide: I'm just saying it's a possibility!!! Why do you refuse to countenance it as a posibility?
Raptor, the depression aspect was noted by some, although I have not heard it mentioned by those closest to him. It was obvious from his performance at the Commons committee immediately before his death that he seemed subdued, indeed so quiet he was incomprehensible to the panel, who repeatedly asked him to speak up. Was this abnormal behaviour for the man? I don't know! Would I have been depressed? Probably. Depressed enough to commit suicide?
#18
LH, In reference to your thoughts on Europe, If the UK remains out of a European superstate (as is my absolute desire), I would hope that those other nations you mention would have the sense to do likewise. Let the EU be a Franco-German club - a club with as few members as possible. Would you move into a house inhabited by perverts and sociopaths in order to try to balance out the behaviour?! Would the US be prepared to sign up to the EU constitution if the UK refuses to? If the answer is no, don't be surprised when the UK rejects such a ludicrous idea and the man who wants it to happen.
#19
"Your suggestion that the UK wade deep into the muddy waters of EU federalism in order to try to wrestle for influence makes no sense whatsoever to me. Would you be happy for the US to surrender its independence and sovereignty, its dollar, its government, its laws and its foreign policy, by joining a union with all the Americas, in a one-way gamble to try to exert more influence on them? "
I suppose it would depend on a number of things, among which would how much my trading patterns made me dependent on such a union anyway, and the details of the union, and the real prospect that it was one way. I have not followed the EU debate in enough detail to make a call on those things, and I wouldnt challenge you on them, although I note that many of your countrymen feel differently than you (of course many of your countrymen, and mine, are idiots, so thats no proof of anything, but im sure there is an argument at least worth looking at from the other side).
Kelly's wife says he was never depressed - i wonder if she knows the symptoms of depression? was she looking for crying fits and the like - depression doesnt manifest itself the same way in everyone - its not always easy for a trained Psychiatrist to determine it. Nothing is impossible, but I think to float an accusation of such seriousness requires a high degree of plausibility.
Blair forever - well I understand that while you dont have a 2 term rule like we do, PMs dont last forever, and Blair intends to step down soon. However I would suggest that the next 2 years are an important phase in the WOT. And I am particularly troubled that the Tories are trying to stir things up on this particular issue - they have every right and even duty to oppose Blair - its the job of an opposition to oppose (something some folks here dont seem to get re the Dems) But unreasonably questioning the case for war (and I think it is unreasonable) is profoundly unhelpful - and just as much so when the Tories do it as when the Dems do it.
Small EU - I dont think thats in the cards. Look at say Czechos trade patterns - theyre gonna be run by the EU whether they join or not, so they might as well join to try and get some influence. Ditto, to a lesser extent, for all the others.
Perverts and sociopaths? A bit much, no?
Would the US be prepared to sign up? well thats a tad silly, since our trade patterns and other relationships dont make it advantageous to us do so. The logic for us is to expand NAFTA, possibly to all the Americas, and to incorporate the Pacific into that trade network as much as possible. ANd to deal with the EU through the WTO, and politically by direct US dealings with member states and with Brussels.
Someday when trade in goods becomes small relatively to trade in intellectual property and service delivered over the internet, UK can ignore geography. Until then UK has to deal with the fact that its economy is tied to Europe. Whether that makes it worth going into a superstate depends on the constitution of the superstate, and the balance of political power within it.
#20
I suspected the perverts and sociopaths analogy would raise someone's eyebrows. I don't mean to suggest that our European neighbours are such; I was stretching the point to demonstrate the fallacy of the join-to-influence argument. It could of course be argued, that the EU project itself is somewhat perverse.
Similar to the influence argument, the trade argument is unconvincing too. The options are to hold onto sovereignty with a possible detrimental effect of trade which may be noticeable, or else sign away sovereignty for promised enhanced trade. We've been through the failings of the EU before - national self-interest, corruption, senseless agricultural practices, impenetrable red tape... The EU can work as a trading bloc, but political and social harmonisation is a fool's errand and beyond a joke. It's time for the madness to stop.
#21
the issue, i presume, is not enhance trade but current trade. Is the EU going to UK continue to vote on trade policies, while staying out of social/political structures? I presume not. That means either staying in as an associate without voting power, or leaving the trade block. The former means losing influence over trade and economic rules that impact you. The latter means jeopardizing current trade - and still being subject to EU domination.
Right now EU rules have a big impact on whether farmers in MY county can raise GM crops. Industry has switched to metric to match EU and rest of world standards. IIUC Eu standards are impacting a number of industries. It would be desirable, ceteris paribus, for the US to have a say in those rules. Fortunately the EU is only one portion of our trade, and trade is still only a limited part of our economy, relative to other developed countries. And of course we are such a big market ourselves that we can exercise a great deal of leverage. So the tradeoff of joining the EU (even if we were invited) wouldnt be worth it. UK is smaller and has much less leverage. UK is more much more open economy than US. UK's trade is much more focused with Europe than the US. Your economy is going to be heavily impacted by Brussels whether youre in or out. So the tradeoff is much more ambiguous.
In any case, I did not start out to discuss whether UK belongs in the EU or not. I well accept that many brits, including yourself dont want to, and consider that good reason to oppose Tony. Fine. My problem is deciding thats so important its worth siding with the idiotatarians on Iraq to accomplish the goal of weakening Tony. I disagree with Dubya on much, i voted against him in 2000, and will again (assuming the Dems nominate someone whose foreign policy is acceptable) I WILL NOT however support my party in its stupid attempt to make the WMD evidence an issue. I suppose you could say that the EU issues are irreversible, as opposed to what Dubya can do domestically. Global warming may not be reversible - (are there reasonable people who disagree about global warming - well yeah, just as there are reasonable people who disagree about Europe)
#22
The British press is nowhere near as sober as the American press. The tone, and sometimes the material, reads like the National Enquirer. This is just their presentation style - I wouldn't read too much into their headlines.
EFL to just the new stuff.
The United States has assured Australia it will not seek a death sentence against an Australian terror suspect detained at Guantanamo Bay if he is convicted, Australiaâs defense minister said Monday. The comments by Defense Minister Robert Hill came as Justice Minister Chris Ellison arrived in Washington to join a British delegation lobbying U.S. officials for a fair trial for their detained nationals. Oh, theyâre getting a fair trial!
The United States agreed last week to temporarily suspend legal action against Australian David Hicks and two British citizens held at the U.S. base in Cuba. The three were among six men set to face military tribunals as ``enemy combatantsââ against the United States. ``We are confident as a result of our discussions with the U.S. that he wouldnât face the death penalty,ââ Hill told Australian Broadcasting Corp. television. Hicks was captured while clearly allegedly fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan and has been imprisoned without charge at Guantanamo Bay for 18 months. According to U.S. authorities, Hicks trained with the al-Qaeda terrorist group for several months, Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said Tuesday. ``More than that, the training was during the period during 2000 and 2001 over a number of months and it included weapons training ... it included surveillance training and so on,ââ he told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio. Australian officials have said they are satisfied with the legal process followed by the U.S. military in regard to Hicks and a second Australian — Mamdouh Habib, 46 — who was arrested last year in Pakistan for allegedly training with al-Qaeda and is also held at Guantanamo. Mr. Hicks will enjoy Gitmo for the rest of his sorry-assed life. Sounds good to me.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/22/2003 12:14:27 AM ||
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fair trial??? yeah, right, I'd like to see that. He hasn't broken any Australian laws, he did break US laws, but hold on, he's not a US citizen and was not taken into custody on US territory.
#3
Igs: how dare you assume he will not get a fair trial. Have you even the slightest idea of the judicial process he will be entering into? the ability to appeal his sentence to a higher authority? the right to legal representation?
David Hicks is a traitor who went to Afghanistan to learn & teach how to kill Australians, Americans and British people. He deserves to die a traitors death. We don't want him back in Australia that's for sure!
Of course, lame-brainers like yourself will turn him into some sort of figurehead hero to rally around, but you forget he already admitted it.
#3
From Yahoo news: The tower has six levels; tourists can visit the three lowest levels; the fire appeared to be one level above those accessible to tourists
EFL
Nato is facing a new rift after a threat by Washington to withdraw US fighter jets from Iceland as part of a shake-up of American military forces in Europe. So concerned are the Icelanders about US intentions to remove four F-15s that they have asked the Nato secretary general, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, to intervene in their support. Iceland has no army, but its territory was of enormous strategic significance during the Cold War, making it a much valued member of the transatlantic alliance. The rethink of US priorities after the 11 September terror attacks has called into question Washingtonâs willingness to keep the small number of jets, plus rescue helicopters and refuelling planes, which Iceland sees as a guarantee of its security and of US commitment. Exactly what is the threat to Icelandâs security?
To make matters worse Reykjavik was informed of the politically sensitive decision in May on the eve of parliamentary elections in which the outgoing Prime Minister, David Oddsson, was returned with a sharply reduced majority. Mr Oddsson has hinted that, if the US does remove the jets, America will have to end its military presence in Iceland. Mr. Oddsson, you really donât want to be making threats like that. Ask Puerto Rico.
That would not be palatable to the Pentagon which has 1,200 naval staff in the country from which it operates four P-3C Orion antisubmarine aircraft as part of its reconnaissance of the North Atlantic, a task it still regards as a high priority. Tracking all shipping, as well as subs.
Officials admit there is little military reason for stationing the jets in Iceland, and that the threat after the end of the Cold War no longer justifies it. But diplomats say the decision will have important political implications and could damage Americaâs relations with a country which has been a loyal supporter. "It is hard to argue on an operational basis that these jets are needed," one Nato source said. "But defence, in the round, is also about offering reassurance and about maintaining alliances and keeping friendships." "And jobs, donât forget the jobs!"
Lord Robertson made representations at a senior level in Washington to try to defuse the row, and succeeded in winning a postponement of any announcement. The source said: "His intervention was requested by the Icelandics. Heâs not allowed to be judgemental in a situation like this: if a Nato member state requires the secretary general to intervene with another Nato member heâs dutybound to do so. The argument came down to one of, âIf you take away the fighter jets, what is there in it for Icelandâ." Uh huh, like I thought, jobs.
In 1994, the US withdrew eight fighters from Iceland but agreed to keep four permanently at the Keflavik naval air station, near Reykjavik. The deal was to be renegotiated in 2001 but talks were postponed as the US contemplated a broader review of its forces in the aftermath of 11 September. The idea of scaling down the presence in Iceland is only a small part of the wide US military reorganisation. The times, they are a changing. Get used to it.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 9:44:18 AM ||
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#1
We'll keep them, if you pay for them. If Iceland picks up the entire costs of the Air Force operation in its nation, we'll stay. Sound like a deal?
#2
Interesting - and Iceland's rather stupid to be threatening the US. What are they going to do - hold their collective breath? The Orions and their support will still be there - for the right reason. That's something for nothing. What, pray tell, does Iceland do other than stick out of the water? Everyone has to adjust to reality or, by definition, they live in fantasy. Pack 'em up and bring 'em home. This is a military question, not Icelandic employment, so do what's right based upon military needs - we pay the tab for the gear, the support, the people, everything. And, in case Iceland hasn't noticed, they are still free and independent because we succeeded in the last great struggle against Soviet adventurism and imperialism. In other words, the've been paid for their hospitality many many times over in every way.
#3
Just curious ... we have to keep 4 fighters there so why not just dig out a 4 retired F-4's from Davis-Monthan? Is there anything that says the jets have to be flyable>
Posted by: Jim K ||
07/22/2003 10:22 Comments ||
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#4
This makes no sense - they have 1200 squids hangin' around, spending money like it's goin' out of style, and they're gettin' exercised about 4 f-15's and some 40-50 flyboys?
#5
iceland supported us on Iraq, including within NATO - why not give them a break? (BTW PD, IIUC the icies want the AF jets, and threatened to evict the Orions)
Seems like more international tone deafness from this admin.
#6
Iceland is a pretty strategic location. And it seems to me that four F-15s are a damn small price to pay for it. On the other hand, the current relationship with Iceland is a bit weird. I don't think the country even has a military. How about we propose a cooperative force? Say an F-16 squadron composed of Americans and Icelanders. Both countries pick up part of the tab and we provide the neccesary training.
Posted by: Patrick Phillips ||
07/22/2003 11:03 Comments ||
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#7
"Exactly what is the threat to Icelandâs security?"
Greenland.
They've been quiet recently, too quiet...
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
07/22/2003 11:50 Comments ||
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#8
LH - Because we are not the Icelandic Employment Bureau. If military needs dictate the jets aren't needed there, then so be it. With all the bitching about the size of the defense budget... the sum of thousands of these situations... and you're suggesting it's OK to use some $ for an Iceland social program? C'mon.
Iceland can offer to participate in a joint effort for their defense - they aren't poor. I don't recall ever training any Icelandic military personnel in my time... lots of Israelis and even a few Saudis - no Icies. They have already been well compensated for sticking out of the water. The danger of being gobbled up as a strategic location by the Sovs has passed. Meanwhile Iceland has sucked the US military tit for decades and now cries - no make that threatens - cuz it doesn't want to be weaned.
#10
LH - that's it? That's your considered response? It's a ludicrous idea and there ARE thousands of similar situations (Did I say states? No. How disingenuous of you.) worldwide, just as stated. You're just being arugumentative cuz you like the clackity-clack of your keyboard. Go here for help in constructing logical arguments.
#11
I'm no expert, but Iceland may well be of strategic importance in the not-so distant future. Do you remember the "Cod war" between the UK and Iceland? Fish are a diminishing and valuable resource, and some of the rich North Altantic's best (and best managed) stocks lie in Icelandic waters, between North American and European fleets...
Also, I believe there may be unexploited fossil fuel reserves in Icelandic waters. There has certainly been prospecting there in recent years.
#12
If memory serves Iceland is a member of the European Union. Perhaps a European member of Nato can replace the 4 jets. Otherwise perhaps Iceland would consider joining the US as a territory, there are some good tax breaks (ask Puerto Rico about that as well).
#13
Iceland is not an EU member state, and would be foolish to upgrade its EEA status to become one, as that would entail handing over its fisheries to Europe. Britain sacrificed hers as a condition of membership and traditional UK stocks are now overwhelmingly harvested by other nations' vessels. European fishing policy is incompetently managed and sustainability is sacrificed at the altar of...you guessed it...national self-interest! Iceland, as a member of the EU, would wave goodbye to its fish.
#14
Carl in NH >> (3 words) Nail on head. I think the entire world is sleeping while the "Green Menace" plots the world's demise.
Here we go again. The whole world hates us, but they just loooovvvveee that US Worldwide Welfare System (ahhh...the American dollar). To view them as a victim is ridiculous. We provided protection and they provided strategic location. The threat is gone, so we have every right to move "our" assets. Navy is still there to protect the Icelandic snow cone industry from any agression from the Green Menace. So, here's a quarter and the number 1-800-Waah-Waah-Waah!
Posted by: Paul ||
07/22/2003 14:50 Comments ||
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#15
Paul---1-800-Waah-Waah-Waah is not in service at this time (no shit!), so I guess that Iceland will have to adjust to the new reality. The number one mission of our military is the protection of this country and its allies. For too many years defense has been pork-barrel politics, especially in the States. For states and other nations, including PR, soft money brought in through the military has been viewed as an entitlement. The transition will be painful, but it will have to be done, and it is long overdue.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/22/2003 15:19 Comments ||
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#16
Carl in NH - pretty good...lol
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 20:03 Comments ||
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Eight people, including four policemen, have been injured in two bomb blasts in popular Spanish beach resorts, police say. A first explosion at a hotel in the heart of the Mediterranean town of Alicante injured four people and just minutes later a second blast in the nearby resort of Benidorm injured four policeman. The hotels had been evacuated minutes before the devices exploded around midday local time, following an anonymous call to the Basque newspaper Gara by someone claiming to speak on behalf of the armed Basque separatist group ETA. The Alicante blast occurred just a short distance from the local offices of the ruling Popular Party of Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar.
More from Beebs, courtesy of Steve...
Two bombs have exploded in the Spanish resorts of Alicante and Benidorm, injuring at least nine people. The devices went off minutes apart in the Hotel Residencia Bahia in Alicante city centre and in the Hotel Nadal in Benidorm. Hospital officials were quoted as saying that British, Russian and Swedish people were among the injured. Four police officers in Benidorm were also among the injured. Officials said no-one was believed to be seriously hurt. The blasts came after Basque separatist group ETA warned that bombs had been planted in the two Costa Blanca resorts. Both hotels had been evacuated minutes before the explosions, following the warning that the devices would explode at 1230. But Spanish reports said both devices went off shortly after 1200 â well before the time stated in the warning. Iâve got a feeling that this conflict will never end.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 08:31 ||
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#1
Iberian Notes thinks that w/the 9 moneymen bagged in Mexico yesterday, things'll quiet down.
Seven Indian soldiers were killed and six wounded when Islamic militants attacked an army camp in Indian-administered Kashmir early on Tuesday, just hours after seven people died in grenade blasts near a Hindu shrine in the region, said the army. Two attackers were also killed in the skirmish, which lasted almost three hours, said the armyâs Lieutenant-Colonel Bhawar Singh Rathore. The rebels penetrated deep into the camp, lobbing grenades and firing indiscriminately, said police. The camp was sealed off while army commandos engaged the militants. Tanda is a major military centre and a battalion headquarters, with many families of soldiers being housed in a separate quarter.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/22/2003 3:33:49 AM ||
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Eight civilians, seven Muslim militants and an Indian soldier were killed while 21 others were injured in a surge of violence in Indian Kashmir, police said on Saturday. A police spokesperson said two militants and a soldier were killed and two army soldiers injured in a five-hour gunbattle in the central Kashmir district of Budgam. A Muslim civilian, Ghulam Mohammed, was killed in the crossfire, he said.
Indian troops shot dead five more militants in four separate encounters around the province on Saturday, police said.
Suspected rebels also shot dead Gul Mohammed, a worker with Indiaâs main opposition Congress in the village of Bragam near Dooru township. Two Kashmiri Sikhs - Harbans Singh and Mohinder Singh - were killed and two other people injured during a gunfight between rebels and security forces that destroyed a house in the village of Bhella in the southern district of Rajouri, police said.
Police said suspected rebels also killed three Muslims, including father and son in the villages of Hiltak and Kandi in Rajouri district.
Unidentified gunmen also sliced off the nose of a Muslim woman, Posha Begum, in the village of Chek Helmatpora in northern Kupwara district overnight. The motive for the attack was not immediately known.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/22/2003 3:22:24 AM ||
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On Tuesday, July 22, forces associated with the 101st Airborne Division and Special Operations Forces conducted an operation against suspected regime figures at a residence in Mosul, Iraq. The site is currently being exploited. Four Iraqis were killed in the operation. We have confirmed that two of the dead were Saddamâs sons Uday and Qusay.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 3:39:12 PM ||
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#1
Fox is reporting that the Ace Of Diamonds, Abid al-Tikriti, IDed the bodies. He was the Presidental Sectratary to Sammy. The briefer at CENTCOM sez they used multiple means to confirm, he said bodies were in good enough condition. Photos tomorrow.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 15:46 Comments ||
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#2
Baghdad no longer fears his name
Uday! Uday!
Now he's lying dead and maimed
So much for Uday!
Tried to run all night! Tried to run all day!
The Screaming Eagles blew him away!
CENTCOM says we iced Uday.
#6
Stuck in the Quagmire⢠ya think? The more the left talks, the more it sounds like squawks. Job well done guys! Now on to Sammy and Co..
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/22/2003 16:00 Comments ||
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From the NTTimes: The two men were seen exiting a car and racing into a house in the eastern part of the city around 9 a.m. and were filmed, the Kurdish officials said. The film was quickly handed over to the American military, who identified the men and surrounded the house with troops from the 101st Airborne.
I wonder if Uday, judging from how unstable and paranoid he is, was the one who first opened fire on the troops?
Anyway, Saddam's got to be quivering in his boots right now. With $25 million at stake and this raid's success, he won't trust anyone anymore.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 16:02 Comments ||
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#8
another one gone
and another one gone
another bites the dust!
So, how many points would the Dow go up if:
-------------------------------------------
Saddam is killed / captured
Arafish shoots himself in sudden epiphany in which he realizes he's a zit on the World's ass; just before he pulls the trigger, he orders Al Aqsa to kill off Hamas and Hezbollah, then commit suicide
The entire collection of Black Hats collectively do the epiphany thing and have a Jonestown Kool-Aid Party
Kofi epiphs and resigns saying he needs to hold a real job in the real world in order to understand something of reality before posturing and telling others what they should be doing
Chirac FINALLY has an epiphany and realizes he's a crook and pathetic shit - and has been hiding behind nationalistic anti-American bullshit - tries to shoot himself, but misses, so he turns himself in to his mistress' husband who is a Bunko Squad Detective, on Chirac's trail for years
The BBC epiphs and renames itself the BBS - and, realizing that they aren't really journalists, they repent their asinine ways and everyone resigns and returns their salaries to the British people
The Demo candidates epiph during a group hug / holier-than-thou arm wrestling contest and all pledge support for Bush Colin Powell, if he'll resign from the Bush Admin, name Condi Rice as his Veep, and turn Dem
#11
electric is on at above prewar levels in the Shiite south. Problems in Baghdad are largely due to security - Baathists shooting at power lines, and killing people who work for the electrical system. To the extent this discourages the Baathists, and heartens the good people of Iraq, this should help to deal with the electricity problem.
#12
Doc - tag 'em and bag 'em! Outstanding. Gonna fire up the BBQ and knock back some cold ones on this one. Gep was dead wrong....this is EXACTLY how foreign policy is implemented.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/22/2003 16:23 Comments ||
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From 2.June Time (hat tip: The Corner): A chef at Baghdad's exclusive Hunting Club recalls a wedding party that Uday crashed in the late 1990s. After Uday left the hall, the bride, a beautiful woman from a prominent family, went missing. "The bodyguards closed all the doors, didn't let anybody out," the chef remembers. "Women were yelling and crying, 'What happened to her?'" The groom knew. "He took a pistol and shot himself," says the chef, placing his forefinger under his chin.
Last October another bride, 18, was dragged, resisting, into a guardhouse on one of Uday's properties, according to a maid who worked there. The maid says she saw a guard rip off the woman's white wedding dress and lock her, crying, in a bathroom. After Uday arrived, the maid heard screaming. Later she was called to clean up. The body of the woman was carried out in a military blanket, she said. There were acid burns on her left shoulder and the left side of her face. The maid found bloodstains on Uday's mattress and clumps of black hair and peeled flesh in the bedroom. A guard told her, "Don't say anything about what you see, or you and your family will be finished."
Hope it's hot enough for you, Uday.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 16:29 Comments ||
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May the loathsome duo be joined soon by their Pater in the lowest realm of HELL, where they'll be dressed in pigskins and forced to eat pork all day. Buh-bye, losers.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/22/2003 16:35 Comments ||
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#17
Hell isn't hot enough for Uday!
Posted by: Tom ||
07/22/2003 16:36 Comments ||
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#18
whilst you celebrate the deaths of the Aces..remeber that today yet another soldier killed in Baghdad...he suffered yet another RPG attack.......guess they forgot that they were supposed to be demoralised by the deaths...number of popped marines now up to 153
#19
Just wondering - is there such a place as the "Gates of Baghdad"? Sure would look good with a couple of pikes decorating it, if it exists. If not, what the hell, post the skulls in front of Moe Sadr's house...
#23
Stevey is right - the war isnt over yet - when mussolini and his wife were hanged, the allies still had lots of dying to do. Indeed, plenty of Marines were "popped" on Okinawa AFTER Hitler lay dead on the floor of his bunker. Indeed, is not joy always mixed with sadness. Right now I am not entirely joyful - this has been an occasion to read about and reflect on the victims of Qusay and Uday - those victims will not be brought back, though one may hope that their survivors, and those who suffered torture but lived, will now know some closure.
#25
Stevey >>> 1) Those aren't all combat deaths. I'm surprised liberal loonies like you don't count soldiers getting their wisdom teeth pulled out as "wounded in action".
2) TIP: It's a combat zone, people will die.
3) It tooks months to equal what we lost in 96 hours of the first war. Yeah, massive casualties,huh? (Anyone that's been in the military knows that in both conflicts (even combined) the casualties have been extremely light.) I bet you think Somalia was a massacre, huh?
4) It took one day at Normandy to lose about 3,300 soldiers. Thank God above people like you and things like CNN weren't around back then. We would've given up after Pearl Harbor.
5) I bet you're all for going into Liberia, though.
6) Lastly, I bet you're "against the war", but "support the troops", right. ASS!
Posted by: Paul ||
07/22/2003 17:08 Comments ||
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#26
LH: It never brings em back...but it stops it from continuing. That is a GOOD thing and I WILL celebrate it - heck the reports are of celebrating in Baghdad already. They apparently like it.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/22/2003 17:09 Comments ||
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#27
LH, all the more reason to be happy that justice has been served. No one is claiming that the war is over, but this is a significant win for the good guys. Saddam's legacy is finished, all that remains is the old man himself. Wonder what's going through his mind right now ?
#28
don't feed the trolls. Ululate until you can't any more and brewskis all around. LH: this doesn't make up for what the sick f*&k did, but it sure means they won't do it again, right. I refuse to see this as anything less than a major coup. Dad's next - Who wants to be a ($25 )Millionaire???
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 17:13 Comments ||
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#29
Im not saying not to celebrate - maybe its just my jewish thing - on passover, when we have a feast to celebrate liberation from Egypt, we dip parsley in salt water to remember the bitterness of slavery, AND we pour out ten drops of wine to show our joy is not total, in memory of innocent egyptians who suffered in the ten plagues. Joy is wonderful, and this is an occasion for it, but joy is not unmixed. Which is my way of responding to Steveys posting, which seemed to indicate that to celebrate was to ignore what is going on. I think it is not - I have danced at the weddings of holocaust survivors' children, and beleive me, few things are sweeter, though the memories are still there.
#30
don't feed the trolls
Rantburg National Park policy ? Ululate
Exactly how is this prononced ? brewskis all around
That's right and fade to black and "Yippy ki yay MF!"
#31
domingo - well not even that - when saddam is found and Iraq is done, there is still Al Qaeeda to finish off, and several other rogue states to deal with. The WOT, of which Op iraqi freedom is only one campaign, goes on.
#32
I'm back from ululating and popping a brewski ... right now!
Here's to the Screaming Eagles!
and
Here's to the brave (and now rich) person that gave the US military that tip!
Posted by: Kathy K ||
07/22/2003 17:22 Comments ||
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#33
LH, I understand what your saying. A little thoughtful and introspective for me but to each there own. I prefer to supress my emotions in typical American male fashion =).
#34
when i have my brewski tonight, i will pour off some drops - for the Kurds, for the Marsh Arabs, for the Shiite victims of '91, for the victims of Uday's rapes, for the Iraqi athletes, for all the other victims, for the American soldiers AND Marines, and, yes, for the victims of 9/11 (for this victory is not unrelated to that, by any means). And the beer will not taste any worse for that, but better.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/22/2003 17:38 Comments ||
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#37
There is no shame in celebrating the violent deaths of those two psychopaths.
Iraqis now know for damn sure they are not coming back to power. Will Saddam be mad enough to do something stupid and get nailed himself?
I suspect we caught some people there even though the conflicting reports now say everybody died. Although 101st is getting the credit, I bet they mostly provided security and firepower while the special ops boys went in.
Kudos to the military. Good for that tipster--now rich. I don't miss one penny of my tax money for that program.
And we are allowed to celebrate for exactly 10 minutes. Then it is on with the mission.
How long will it take for Begala and Carville to complain the boys weren't Mirandized and given the Dream Team for legal defense?
#38
Stevey's right. We really shouldn't be celebrating at this point. After all, Saddam and Osama are still out there. There are still at least one or two armed Ba'athist insurgents out there to deal with after that. And after that, Baghdad needs reliable electricity 24/7. And after that, the WMDs have to be found. And after that, every child must be immunized. And after that, they'll need that 2-ply toilet paper that doesn't chafe. And after that, there's curing the common cold. Oh, and paper cuts. And that film that forms on the shower curtain. And toejam. And open soda cans that turn flat. Skunky beer. And warts. Moles that grow hair (ick). .,,...,..,
But once we've taken care of all that, WOO! PAR-TAY!
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 17:56 Comments ||
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#39
Allah, it must be a humuliating day for the islamonutcase arabs!
They must be heaving their guts in shame and rage.
All in all a good day.
Posted by: Michael ||
07/22/2003 18:06 Comments ||
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#40
good those guys were bad guys..especially the taller UDAY.... but the people killing soldiers weren't taking orders from the fallen scoundrels...creeps from all over the islamic world with a grudge against America are getting into iraq right now for the JIHAD and tickets to ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST GLORY.......Alqaeda types and ofshoots are crowding to babylonia for jihad...and yes...also killed today was another soldier...if we cant secure a treacherous six mile stretch of an Airport highway..there r do it yourself videos in SYRIA,JORDAN,YEMEN telling young muslims how to kill American soldiers,,,with a small pistol hidden...sneak up behind him and shoot once on the back neck....and it has been done atleast ten times alreadye.t.c how are we gonna secure the whole damn place...plus the shi'ite beast in the south turns out doesnt really have any love for America..they even ridicule Al Sistani for his persian accented Arabic..now that those guys are dead..they might say..thats it go home now..it our(shiites) turn...i'm next
#42
Ah, stevey. Hanging out at Rantburg is bad for you -- your're engaging in dialogue now. Next thing you know you'll be forming logical arguments and reading history. Then you'll be one of us! BWAHAHAHA!
#44
Stevie, those people who are motivated to go kill Americans will do so regardless. They need no special prompting, only means. It's better they try to take on the soldier than civilians and children, as they do in Israel and here on 9/11. Here's a blindling flash of the obvious for you, after Saving Private Ryan and Black Hawk Down, most the the volunteers know what they're getting into better than any other time in history. I did my twenty and understood that at anytime I could be asked to give my last full measure of devotion. And I'm still subject to recall at anytime at the request of the Secretary. To paraphrase Kipling, we take the King's schilling and we takes the King's chances. It's the same as the guys who wear the badge on your streets and those who shoulder the fire hoses in your neighborhood. Someone's got to do the dirty work in life so people like you whine that this is not all PERFECT. It's never been perfect anytime in human history. It's always been tradeoffs.
These aren't gurrillas because in the third stage of classical gurrilla warfare the insurgents join with main force units to destroy their opponent as was the case in Vietnam and China. No, these are just thugs, organized no better than the Bloods or the Krips or the classical Godfather mafia. The can intimidate, as it appears they do you. But they know they can't stand up to regular formations for more than a cheap shot. It isn't that hard to differenciate between a local Iraqi and a Paleo, Syrian, Lebannese, et al. As this event demonstrates more and more locales pointing out the trouble makers. Will we get them all? Hell, no. No more than we here in the US can get all the gang members and dealers off our streets. However, we can abate the level of crime and its associated cancer. For that about 147 police officers paid the price with their lives last year here in the US. So I extrapolate from your comments, that isn't worth it and we should have them all turn in their badges and guns. Let the thugs and druggies rule your neighborhood for a while.
Grima Wormtongue indeed!
Posted by: Don ||
07/22/2003 19:02 Comments ||
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#45
The timely demise of Uday and Qusay are reasons to celebrate. However, the U.S. must exert every effort to capture or kill Saddam's remaining son, the little known financial genius in charge of acquiring components for messages of mass destruction--Ebay.
Posted by: Ralph ||
07/22/2003 19:37 Comments ||
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#46
word gets around that we payed up the $15 mil, how long will it be before someone is looking for the $25 MIL?
Posted by: john ||
07/22/2003 20:42 Comments ||
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#47
Ralph: ROTFLMAO!
Rest in torment, Uday and Qusay. Rest in peace, all ye whom they murdered.
#51
Dar---your post with the WOO PAR-TAY on the end almost made me choke on my salad. Great Post. We are in Iraq for the long haul. Watch the hands and, well, listen to the mouth if you wish. The middle earth east needs to realize that they will be part of the civilized world in the near future one way or another. Do they want to help themselves, or do they want to be dragged kicking and screaming?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/22/2003 22:52 Comments ||
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#52
Ululation from vacation. Does the 101 have two pikes in its gear?
Posted by: Matt ||
07/22/2003 23:28 Comments ||
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EFL
Four months after diplomacy fell apart inside the Security Council over war in Iraq, Annan, his special envoy and members of the newly formed Iraqi group addressed the council Tuesday and discuss both the high and low points of postwar life for Iraqis.
The backdrop of the meeting is a toughly-worded report Annan delivered to the Security Council on Monday in which he warned the United States that "democracy cannot be imposed from the outside." Despotism is good enough.
"It is important that Iraqis are able to see a clear timetable leading to the full restoration of sovereignty," Annan wrote in his report. No phucing ch!t M-u-s-t control... fist.. of death..
Annan also noted concerns about the U.S. treatment of Iraqi detainees and the failure to improve security in Baghdad.
The critical tone of the report was unlikely to help U.S. efforts to win support and influence people for an international peacekeeping force that could relieve overburdened American troops in Iraq.
"We certainly agree that Iraqis should be in charge of their own country and we are working hard to do that and thatâs why the Governing Council is a good first step," said Richard Grenell, spokesman for the U.S. mission to the United Nations. Translation: "Koffi, STFU".
Annanâs report offers U.N. help to Iraqis in defining the priorities and policies that will shape the future of the country. But throughout the report, Annan emphasized the importance of Iraqi sovereignty. "There is an overwhelming demand for self-rule and democracy cannot be imposed from the outside." So are efforts are useless we should pack up and head home ?
The sky is falling blah blah , if only the UN were involved.
Oh Koffi, you give me a headache... (chuck bird).
The report also expresses concerns about the living conditions and "precarious security situation" in the capital.
Annan also offered the United States assistance in a host of areas including de-mining and police training. But Annan ruled out the possibility of a U.N. police force working side-by-side with U.S. troops. Baghdad Bob or Koffi, which one is a bigger pain in the arse ?
Posted by: Domingo ||
07/22/2003 11:45:22 AM ||
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#1
Kofi: Go FY.
U.S. out of the UN NOW!!
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/22/2003 11:59 Comments ||
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#2
This is a mistake.
Geo43: Stop talking to these clowns. Even if it hurts like hell, do not deal with them. They have never EVER solved a single bona-fide problem. Only individual states, going beyond and around the UN, have ever truly accomplished real results. It would be better to open up the services for a larger volunteer force or reinstitute the draft than to continue being bled dry and shat upon (intentional spelling) by this bunch of ankle-biting voyeurs.
C'mon Geo43: Pull the plug. We'll do our business and either do it with whomever has the cajones to join in - or do it alone. No more UN anchor-dragging. Just bite the bullet and cut it loose.
#3
no state in the history of the world has managed to do all its business alone. And we cant either. If we aren't mature enough to deal with the frustrations of having allies, etc, we should try to withdraw into a fortress.
#6
LH - If the UN was a constructive body and a positive force for change and comprised of nation-states that shared most of our values - you'd be absolutely right.
Factually, however, the UN encompasses a large number of entities with which we have nothing in common - not in our body of law, our goals, our values - none of the areas of importance when considering with whom you wish to ally yourself or with whom you would voluntarily choose to associate.
It is composed of all the tyrannical, dictatorial, murderous, utterly corrupt, politically-challenged and despicable regimes on the planet. It is a mob. For an impossible to explain or justify example, consider the UN Human Rights Commission, chaired by Lybia. Note that we were denied a seat on this commission, but Cuba was accepted. Read the link. Truly, consider it. This is just the latest and most obvious example of why the UN is an absurdity. We have witnessed the decline and descent of the UN to a body infected with stupidity and virulent hate and jealousy as its primary message. Just consider its treatment of Israel and the "Palestine Question" to see that the first victim of this foolishness was truth. It is irretrievable.
The UN, to a country such as the US, is much like the Chinese torture known as "one thousand cuts."
If there is to be a coalition of nations that share our goals, one with whom we would be proud to be associated - it will have to be reinvented - and have some requirements for membership, this time. The UN, as with the League, has been overtaken by the cretins, the cowards, the fools, one cut at a time.
#7
While I would welcome a curb in UN funding on the part of the US and perhaps even their relocation outside of our borders, I wouldn't necessarily be prepared to give up our veto power. Basically I would not turn my back on the UN for fear of what the little turds might cook up.
#9
Kofi's comments are meant for within the UN building. And France, of course. Anyone with sense understands that in balance, things are going reasonably well in Iraq and will get better if the pimp and daddy's puppy got whacked today.
Does anyone think that if the UN were in charge we'd have hundreds of town councils handling local affairs throughout much of Iraq? That we'd have an interim national council that is at all representative and willing to work together? That millions of Iraqis would be going on about their lives, trying to re-build and make things a little better?
No, we'd have UN functionaries and consultants eating the best food, complaining about the available wines, making rude comments about the locals, and arrogantly deciding themselves how Iraq should be run. We'd have Kofi's buddies in charge. And worst of all, Hans Blix would come out of retirement.
Screw 'em. Sure, we're close to over-extended, we're spending a lot of money, and the morale of our guys over there is taking a hit. Hang in there, 3ID, what you're doing is worthwhile and important. We're doing a good job in 3/4 of the country, and as soon as we peg some more of the rat bastards the Sunnis will get the idea. We're on course. Ignore the UN.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/22/2003 15:17 Comments ||
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#10
"It is important that Iraqis are able to see a clear timetable leading to the full restoration of sovereignty," Annan wrote in his report.
Which Iraqis would those be, Kof? The Iraqi people, the regular folk? Because "sovereignty" is not a concept with which they are recently familiar. You make this sound like putting the Kuwaiti royalty back on throne after a few unpleasant months in 1991. You can't restore what the Iraqi people have never had. And you can't build it for the first time in under six months.
Posted by: (lowercase) matt ||
07/22/2003 15:22 Comments ||
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NBC News: âLikelyâ captured or killed
Saddam Husseinâs sons Udai and Qusai Hussein were âlikelyâ captured or killed in a U.S. raid in northern Iraq Tuesday. More details to come... FOX reports al-J was on the scene, sez both are dead. Oh, please, please!
Detail, from al-Cheezewhiz. Note where they put the emphasis in the screamer...
3 US soldiers killed during the arrest or killing of the Saddam's sons in Mosul
Abu Dhabi TV
7/23/03: 11:30 a.m. Eastern Time
Abu Dhabi TV reported live from Mosul eyewitness accounts about a major US military operation targeting a house in the northern Iraqi city.
Eyewitnesses said that US helicopters and soldiers attacked a house, killing almost everyone there and arresting the owner, who is a head of a major Iraqi tribe.
It was believed that the two sons of the former Iraqi President, Udai and Quossai, were in the house. They were either killed or arrested, according to US sources.
KNOCK KNOCK!
"Why Uday! Qusay! Welcome to my humble abode!"
"Hiya, Abdul! Say, that's a stunning traditional Arab dress!"
"Why, thank you. I stole it myself."
KNOCK KNOCK!
"Why who could that be, coming to visit so close on your heels?"
"Cheeze! It's the 101st Airborne!"
"Infidels! The place is crawling with infidels!"
"Ow!"
"Ow! Hey! Knock it off!... Owwww!"
More detail from WaPo...
Details of the attack were very sketchy in Washington and there was no immediate confirmation of the deaths. But one intelligence official said, "Among the dead may be Uday and Qusay" Hussein. Another official said that two of the bodies bore strong physical resemblance to the men. Both men were close to their father and had been listed as aces in the deck of cards depicting former Iraqi officials being sought by U.S. troops. Qusay had headed the elite Republican Guard for his father. The dead did not include the ousted Iraqi leader, U.S. officials said.
Damn. But I guess that would have been too much to hope for... How about those captured?
Before the attack, U.S. troops had been told that there were high-ranking officials from the deposed government and the resistance was reportedly fierce when they arrived.
CNN adds that...
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told President Bush Tuesday the U.S. military might have killed Saddam Hussein's two sons during a raid in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, administration officials said.
C'mon. He coulda gotten that reading Rantburg. Or even CNN...
The initial White House reaction was cautious, though one official said confirmation the two sons, Qusay and Uday, were killed would "brighten" spirits in an administration that has been under sharp criticism recently from those who accuse the White House of exaggerating the threat posed by the former Iraqi regime.
"Oh, woe! We're so down. But wait! Uday and Qusay and little Mustafa may be rotting! Who's up for a few verses of 'Singin' in the Rain'?"
"Can I sing bass, boss?"
"We can't say for certain but there is hope in my heart," said one administration official familiar with the operation. This official said there was "very solid" intelligence that the two sons were in a home in Mosul at the time of the firefight, but said he was not at liberty to discuss the evidence that made officials optimistic that Hussein's sons had been killed.
Hmmm... They walked in. They didn't walk out. Kinda like a roach motel...
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 11:29:37 AM ||
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#1
Oh please please is right! Gawwwwddddd I hope they're dead meat. Mount their heads on pikes outside the Bremer compound
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 11:32 Comments ||
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#2
Can't be true! I swear those guys were in Pamplona running with the bulls. They were having a blast.
#3
If caught, we need to put them (or their bodies) in a large, bulletproof transparent case, and drive them around Iraq for a few weeks. Give their former constituents a chance to see that they're really out of action...
#5
I'll just settle for the video of their carcasses being tossed onto the back of a truck for disposal. There's something about the way deaders bounce when they're tossed like that that's very convincing...
Posted by: Fred ||
07/22/2003 12:33 Comments ||
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#6
Hand the rotting carcasses over to the fledgling Iraqi council and let them spread the word. Maybe they'll go for a nice Mussolini-like display in that square where the statue got pulled down a few months ago.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 12:46 Comments ||
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#7
Fox is reporting that one soldier was shot in the chest and is stable condition. No mention of three dead. Also more troops have been trucked in to secure the area. Dusk is falling. Lastly, the raid was carried out by Task force 20. A unit composed of Delta Force and CIA commando's assisted by the 101st AB.
#9
Sarge: I'd kind of hoped that we'd had the good sense to melt down those swords on the parade grounds into service medals by now or, at least, put them on a truck and given 'em to the Iranians... is there a reason why we haven't (our great respect for the Iraqi army? {insert mind boggle here}
#11
From DEBKA: Saddamâs two sons Uday and Qusay, Saddam's grandson Mustafa, 14, and bodyguard killed when 200 US special forces and CIA commandos raid cousinâs villa in north Iraqi own of Mosul Tuesday. Cousin is Marwan Zeidan, of head of Abou Nasser tribe.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 13:24 Comments ||
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#12
But I want to know - Who won the lotto!
Posted by: Don ||
07/22/2003 15:17 Comments ||
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#13
BBC
"Our correspondent in Baghdad said gunfire in the city on Tuesday evening was thought to be celebratory fire from those who had heard that the brothers may have been killed. "
U.S. soldiers stormed a house in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul Tuesday, killing four key allies of Saddam Hussein who were hiding inside, Fox News has learned. The house, a large villa, belonged to Saddamâs cousin, and it was burned to the ground after a loud, four-hour gunbattle. Goody.
Residents of the city, 280 miles north of Baghdad, said the American soldiers were searching for Saddamâs sons, Qusai and Udai, who have been reported in the area. "Individuals of very high interest to the coalition forces were hiding out in the building," Lt. Col. William Bishop of the 101st Airborne Division told Reuters. Names, please? No? OK, weâll wait.
"This morning we went to the building and surrounded it." Bishop said one Iraqi had been killed and five wounded in the battle. Hope theyâre very painful wounds.
Reuters reported that several "high-interest personalities" had been detained. The military, reporting communications problems, said it had no information on the incident. The old "my radio is breaking up" ploy. Hope they are very high interest people.
According to the Reuters report, U.S. soldiers were fired at by people inside the house as they approached, and the Americans called in helicopters and an unmanned vehicle for assistance before storming the house. "Send in the Killbot!"
Posted by: Steve & Kalle (kafir forever) ||
07/22/2003 11:05:52 AM ||
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FLASH: FOX AND al-JAZZERA REPORT SAMMYS BOYS KILLED!!!!!!
DEVELOPING
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 11:23 Comments ||
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#2
MSNBC is quoting "high officials" as saying that it's "likely" that the Saddam boys were collected in this raid. Not the first time we've had our hopes raised, but I'm willing to go for the bait again...
If true, it seems odd that they'd be in Mosul, though. If I were a Hussein, I'd try to stay away from the Kurdish and Shi'ite areas entirely -- there'd be too many people willing to drop a dime on me (for good reason).
#3
snellenr, that's why it would be a good place to hide. You know, the old "They'd never be there" ploy. Fox reports that somebody did drop a dime on them.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 11:37 Comments ||
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Maj. Trey Cate of the 101st Airborne Division said 200 soldiers were sent to the house after receiving a tip that important members of Hussein's overthrown regime were there.
He declined to identify them, and would not comment on local rumors that Hussein's sons Uday and Qusay were inside.
American troops blasted the house with machine guns, grenades and anti-tank missiles after coming under fire from people inside, Cate said. Helicopters were also used to secure the area. After the battle, a small group of soldiers went into the house and brought out four bodies.
Cate said five Iraqis were killed in the battle, including the four "high-value individuals," and at least five wounded. He said one U.S. soldier was shot in the chest but was in a stable condition
Posted by: Patrick Phillips ||
07/22/2003 11:39 Comments ||
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#5
Steve... if the dime was dropped, it's the best $30 million the government has spent in the last 50 years (wasn't that the bounty on the boys -- $15 mil each? can't remember).
#6
Taken alive would be more fruitful from an intel standpoint, but I'll take 'um "smoked" if that is what is being served up!
(I,m rising to the bait too. At least we will have some "bugsplat" to do some DNA analysis on.
#8
Snellenr, it's $15m for the pair. One head for each side of the door to Oval Office. Space over mantle reserved for Sammy.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 12:53 Comments ||
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#9
Wondeful news. I'm ululating according to the tradition of the enemy. Fox News now fairly positive "four-hour gunbattle at Mosul house leaves four high-level fugitives dead; military sources tell Fox News Odai, Qusai probably among them."
#10
Shall we take up a little collection for Saddam and the boys? I'm thinking a nice Hallmark sympathy card for Saddam that reads "You're Next", and perhaps some dead lilies or a RIH wreath ("Roast In Hell") for the offed offspring.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 13:48 Comments ||
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EFL
Relying on the help of an Iraqi political party, the United States has moved to resurrect parts of the Iraqi intelligence service, with the branch that monitors Iran among the top priorities, former Iraqi agents and politicians say.
The Iraqi National Congress, which is led by Ahmad Chalabi, the longtime exile who is now a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, says its senior officials have met with senior members of the so-called Iran and Turkey branch of the Mukhabarat, or Iraqi intelligence, over the last several weeks. The party has received documents from the intelligence officers and recruited them into a reconstituted version of the unit, said Abdulaziz Kubaisi, the Iraqi National Congress official responsible for the recruiting effort. This is traditional, you always co-opt your defeated enemies intelligence service. Just keep them on a very short leash.
Yeah, but the stench is pretty tough to take in this case...
American officials, he said, are fully informed about what the party is doing. Iraqi intelligence officers who have been asked to rejoin the branch contend that the United States is orchestrating the effort. "As far as what we do, we are sending back information to the Pentagon, to people who are responsible," Mr. Kubaisi said. "They know the nature of what weâre doing. There is coordination. We have representatives of Rumsfeld at the I.N.C." As long as itâs not the State Department.
But some Middle East experts said trying to revive the branch before a sovereign government was in place and working through a political party could backfire. The effort to reach out to former Iraqi intelligence officials also appears hard to harmonize with the American drive to "de-Baathify" Iraqi society, given the prominence of the Baath Party of Saddam Hussein in his government. You use the tools you have at hand. The CIAâs HUMINT program went into the toilet after congress made us promise not to work with anyone except Boy Scouts.
A senior American official said concern about Iran was driving some of the discussion about moving quickly to re-establish an intelligence service. The official said the United States recognized that Iraq had a good intelligence apparatus focused on Iran because activities in the neighboring country might affect Iraqi security at home. Yup.
People close to the Iran branch said the Americans had also expressed interest in reviving the intelligence serviceâs Syria branch. Oh, Iâd really like to go through those files.
Mr. Kubaisi also said the possibility that Iran might try to interfere in Iraqâs affairs made the revival of the Mukhabaratâs Iran branch a top priority. "There are political parties â not the main seven ones â who have alliances with Iran, who are flirting with it," he said. "I think the Iranians are interfering in Iraqâs affairs. Theyâve been meddling here for years." Still are.
American officials in Washington and Baghdad maintained that reviving the Iran branch was only being discussed now. Senior United States government officials in Washington said the question of when and how to re-establish Iraqâs intelligence service was under active consideration at the highest levels of the government. They said that it was discussed recently by the Deputies Committee, which represents the second-ranking official at national security agencies, and that the C.I.A. had been designated the lead agency in the process. "Thereâs been a lot of discussion, but I havenât seen anything that has developed into concrete thinking," one official said. Asked whether the Defense Department was working through the Iraqi National Congress to recruit former Iraqi intelligence officers, the official declined to comment. Humm, is Rummy setting up his own Iraqi intel agency?
But people close to the Iraqi members of the Iran branch say recruitment efforts began two months ago, when the crisis over Iranâs nuclear program flared, and continue now. Sabi al-Hamed, a former Iran branch member in Zubayr, in southern Iraq, said two of his former colleagues made contact with him two week ago and told him that they had been working with Americans. The old "enemy of my enemy" routine works both ways.
Mr. Hamed, a Mukhabarat officer since 1976, said he refused to join the revived unit when former co-workers told him that it would be cooperating with the Mujahedeen Khalq, or Peopleâs Mujahedeen, an Iranian opposition group that is on the State Departmentâs list of foreign terrorist organizations. Mr. Hamed said he had worked with the group during the Iran-Iraq war and called them butchers, adding that he had seen bodies of people they had executed.
A person close to the Iran branch members says the currently coalescing intelligence service has been in touch not only with former Iran branch officers in Iraq, but also with those in Iran and with former Peopleâs Mujahedeen members. Mr. Kubaisi denied that a future intelligence arm in Iraq would work with the Peopleâs Mujahedeen, and a spokesman in Paris for the group did not return e-mail messages seeking comment. Mr. Kubaisi said the Iran unit would begin working once the Governing Council settled in and the ministries were fully functioning. But the former Iraqi agents who had discussions with the Iraqi National Congress and with members of the Iran branch say the unit is already working in a building in central Baghdad. Mr. Kubaisi said Iran branch members were being vetted before being signed up. He and others close to the branch said none of the officers had been paid yet. "These are people we should attract and make use of," he said. "But they shouldnât be bad people. They should not have a criminal past, and they shouldnât be stained with peopleâs blood." I believe the OSS/CIS requited many of the German Army intel types after WW2. The SS and Gestapo were too dirty.
The officials said it was unclear to whom a new Iraqi intelligence service would report. But they said the C.I.A. now had a sizable operation in Iraq, with at least several dozen officers on the ground. They work for us or they donât work at all.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 10:46:53 AM ||
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#1
The thing about doubles is you can never be really sure where their primary loyalty lies. Make use of them, but definitely put keepers on 'em too.
#2
We used the Abwehr personnel and networks after WWII.
The "peace at any cost" left will make hay of this now that it has hit the mainstream press. We've all noticed that the left has not tackled the issue of the mass graves and torture chambers yet. Now the accusations of how the Bushitler is betraying the victims of Saddam's oppression will fly. I'm sure groups of far left operatives are sitting down at this moment to formulate the sound bites and positioning statements. Was it Eisenhower that said, "A party with no ideals is nothing more than a conspiracy to seize power"?
Confirming much of what was said in the letter from the SF soldier I posted yesterday:
Thousands of Baath Party members, secret policemen, and other Saddam supporters have been interrogated since the war in Iraq began. Getting some of these guys to talk has been a challenge, because many of them really believe that itâs only a matter of time before they will be back in power. Several gambits have proven useful in loosening tongues.
Many of these people have Iraqi blood on their hands, and they do fear retribution from the families of their victims. So much effort has gone into identifying who did what to whom when Saddam was in power. With this information in hand, the interrogator mentions that the Iraqi judicial system will soon be functioning again, and, hey, werenât you in Basra in 1993 when a lot of Shiites "disappeared." Perhaps we should take you back there and, hey, do you know what a "line up" is? That gets a lot of people to talk.
Another scary gambit is mentioning a transfer to Guantanamo. The Arab media has been conjuring up all manner of fantasies about Guantanamo, and to many of the currently unindicted, being sent there is seen as tantamount to a death sentence, or worse.
Mindful that many of these Saddam loyalists are basically unprincipled opportunists, the offer of work ratting out their former buddies is attractive, if the price is right. If that doesnât work, threatening to leak a rumor that they are talking anyway is often an offer they canât refuse.
All of this is producing results. Every night, and sometimes during the day, raids are conducted based on information obtained one way or another. And more members of the late dictatorship are rounded up, along with their weapons, cash, and whatever information they can be talked into sharing.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 10:19:35 AM ||
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"Saddam loyalists are basically unprincipled opportunists, the offer of work ratting out their former buddies is attractive, if the price is right."
Pay the bastards off in traditional soviet manner.
#4
I like the third option the best because for the rest of their (hopefully short and miserable) lives they'll have to sleep with one eye open.
MUAH-HAHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: Paul ||
07/22/2003 14:57 Comments ||
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I know what youâre thinking, but itâs not that flag.
San Francisco Supervisor Fiona Ma was trying to please local Vietnamese American activists when she got the city to honor a flag they said was a symbol of their community. What Ma and most of the other members of the Board of Supervisors did not realize, however, is that the yellow flag with three red stripes they unanimously voted to honor last Tuesday was that of the defeated government of South Vietnam. Snicker.
"I did not know that this was the exact flag of South Vietnam," Ma said. "That was my bad." Maâs resolution calls the old flag "the Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag" and "the symbol of the Vietnamese American community." It urges the state Legislature to adopt a similar measure. Sounds good to me.
Needless to say, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam was not amused, and diplomatic representatives protested, sending letters and meeting with Mayor Willie Brown and some supervisors Monday. And lord knows, SF doesnât want to upset their little red buddies.
"Any resolution of displaying that flag does not help healing the war wounds," wrote acting Vietnam Consul General in San Francisco Dang The Hung to one supervisor. Dang The Hung? Iâm not going to touch....sorry
To appease the Vietnamese government, Ma was working with consular officials and the mayorâs office to formulate a second resolution that would state that San Francisco recognizes only one flag for the country of Vietnam: the red flag with the golden star. Youâd think theyâd remember what it looked like, they waved it enough in college. I guess drugs do affect your memory.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 2:49:45 PM ||
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#8
The funny thing is that she did the right thing - I doubt local Vietnamese are interested in having the Communist flag represent their community. In fact, hanging up the commie flag would be an insult to that community.
#9
No one has ever mistook the War in Viet Nam for any thing other than a tragedy. And part of healing the wounds of that war is recongnizig that there were people in the south who fought for another cause than the one of the North
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
07/22/2003 23:19 Comments ||
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The Palestine National Authority (PNA) dismissed a report by Medecins du Monde (Doctors of the World), which accused Palestinian groups of committing âserious violations of international humanitarian law,â stressing that occupation is the main source of violence and the only war crime.
"Nope. Nope. Nothin' else counts. Fuggedaboudit."
âWe refuse the findings of this report. Only the (Israeli) occupation is a war crime,â President Yasser Arafatâs Media Adviser, Nabil Abu Rudeina told AFP.
"I blow my large Paleostinian nose on your report!"
âWhat is needed is for the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian lands to end and for a Palestinian state to be created. The occupation is the source of every problem here,â he said.
"To include the poor complexions of our youth and the inability of our wives to achieve orgasm!"
âThe Palestinian people has endured the occupation for decades and has the right to achieve freedom, independence and justice,â said Abu Rudeina.
"So we can do anything we damned well want and you can piss off!"
Medecins du Monde alleged in its report that âArmed Palestinian groups clearly premeditate and organize serious violations of international humanitarian law.â The suicide bombings âconstitute crimes against humanity in the terms of the statute of the International Criminal Court,â the group said. However, it admitted that senior Palestinian officials and respected intellectuals have admonished the actions against civilians.
I, personally, have heard Yasser say "tut tut" on more than one occasion...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 14:49 ||
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A Liberian rebel group is telling its fighters to stop firing. The group's soldiers have been engaged in an all-out battle with government forces for the West African country's capital city. An official with the group said "our troops are being told to cease fire." The official is in Ghana for peace talks.
Good. Maybe they'll ignore him...
He also said he welcomes word that Nigerian forces may be ready to help lead a West African peacekeeping force in Liberia. The United States has been under pressure to send troops.
2008 good for you? I think we can make it by then?
U.S. Marines have been sent to the country, but only to bolster security at the U.S. Embassy and help with some evacuations. The call to stop fighting comes a day after a barrage of mortar shells rained down on the Liberian capital of Monrovia. Dozens of people were reportedly killed, and officials expect the number of deaths to climb higher.
Don't do it, guys. You've got Chuck by the scrotum now. One more little grab...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 14:34 ||
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Shelling again rocked the devastated Liberian capital Monrovia on Tuesday as rebels refused to sign a west African brokered peace pact to end a ruinous four-year civil war. One rocket landed near the US embassy in Monrovia's Mamba Point area and near the office of the British aid organisation Merlin, causing two injuries and one death, according to witnesses. LURD and a second rebel group, the Movement for Democracy in Liberia (MODEL), faulted the plan for failing to propose three vice presidencies in a power-sharing transitional government for the west African state. However a rebel official attending peace talks in Ghana told AFP that LURD had ordered the rebels to halt their offensive on Monrovia. The order was made 48 hours ago, and has been repeated, but "every time they (rebels) intended to leave an area or do a tactical withdrawal, Taylor's forces opened fire, making the situation very difficult for us," said the official, Kabineh Ja'neh.
If your gonna get shot, might as well push forward.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 14:57 Comments ||
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U.S. authorities deported an Irish man they said was a member of a paramilitary group involved in a 1975 attack on a Northern Ireland police officer, an immigration and customs official said. John Edward McNicholl was sent to Ireland Friday and taken into custody. He had been appealing a deportation order since 1997, saying he was jailed for a crime he did not commit.
His final court appeal was denied July 10, Garrison Courtney, a spokesman for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, said Monday.
McNicholl, 51, was alleged by U.S. officials to have been a member of the Irish National Liberation Army. He was accused of killing a Royal Ulster Constabulary police officer and wounding another during an ambush and gun battle in Northern Ireland on July 26, 1975. In February 1976, McNicholl and several other men were arrested during a police raid on a farmhouse in search of weapons allegedly used in the attack in Dungiven, County Londonderry. Three months later, McNicholl and seven other men tunneled out of the now-closed Maze Prison near Belfast.
U.S. prosecutors said McNicholl had entered the United States illegally, belonged to a terrorist group and was one of the gunmen who shot the constables. McNicholl admitted entering the United States illegally but denied any role in the group or the 1975 shootout.
McNicholl testified during a 1999 deportation hearing that he was active in the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association, which organized demonstrations and rallies for jobs. He said British authorities targeted him because of his involvement in that group. A lawyer for McNicholl was out of the office and could not be reached for comment Monday. A message left at the McNicholl home in suburban Philadelphia was not immediately returned. Senator Ted Kennedy could not woken for comment.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 1:55:53 PM ||
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Teddy exhausted his spittle reservoir during his "Bush Lied!!!" speech.
Regards McNicholl - he has a home in Philly? Wha?
So, regardless of his claim of innocence, he's a prison escapee and he illegally entered the US...
Why did it take 6 yrs to deport him?
And why are they saying deport, instead of extradite?
Any legal beagles here who can explain?
Sorry, but his guilt or innocence regards the original charges is NOT our business to determine.
One of the dwarfs speaks:
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - U.S. Democratic presidential hopeful Richard Gephardt on Tuesday condemned President Bushâs foreign policy as "machismo" and "arrogant unilateralism," saying his clumsy diplomacy on Iraq had shattered U.S. foreign alliances and endangered America. Unlike the subtle yet strong diplomacy by Madeleine and Bill C? Bwahahaha
In an attack on Bushâs diplomacy since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Missouri congressman said Bush had treated allies "like so many flies on Americaâs windshield" and should immediately seek U.N. and NATO help in stabilizing Iraq. I like that analogy, and donât consider that a bug, but a feature
"Foreign policy isnât a John Wayne movie, where we catch the bad guys, hoist a few cold ones, and then everything fades to black," Gephardt, who supported the war in Iraq, said in remarks prepared for delivery to the San Francisco Bar Association.
"Diplomacy matters. Burden-sharing matters. Follow-through matters. And yes, sustaining the peace is harder, more complex, and often costlier than winning the war itself," he said. "No matter the surge of momentary machismo -- as gratifying as it may be for some -- itâs short-sighted and wrong to simply go it alone."
Gephardt, one of nine Democrats vying to challenge Bush for the White House in 2004, said he would not apologize for supporting the war. But he said he was running for president "because I believe George Bush has left us less safe, and less secure, than we were four years ago."
Gephardt was the Democratic leader in the House during the Iraq debate, and he is one four Democratic presidential contenders who supported the resolution authorizing military action, along with Sens. John Kerry of Massachusetts, John Edwards of North Carolina and Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut.
He has been criticized by some Democrats, including rival and former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, for failing to ask enough questions about Bushâs plans before backing the resolution.
But Gephardt said he helped change the war resolution so that it called on Bush to work with U.S. allies and the United Nations, and develop a real plan to stabilize a post-war Iraq. Bush ignored those principles, he said.
"Instead, guided by arrogant unilateralism and a deeply flawed âpre-emption" doctrineâ, he has brought us to where we are today in Iraq," Gephardt said.
Wonder how many states this crap would carry? Massachusetts? The District of Columbia?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 12:45:22 PM ||
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People's Republic of California?
I find it perfectly ironic that this is released just as we're getting the juicy details on Saddam's evil little s**ts. Nice timing, Dick!
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 12:49 Comments ||
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Oh, and this little gem from AtlanticBlog hilariously describes how some California Democratic state legislators discussed blocking a state budget deal to further their political agenda (while blaming the Republicans for the budget deal delay, of course) over an open microphone! There's a link to the LA Times article, but they require registration.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/22/2003 12:56 Comments ||
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Unfortunate, that he shot off his mouth on the same day we got/may have gotten Uday and Qusay.
I feel so machismo. I think I'll hoist a cold one and fade to black, before I got outside and ululate at the bug slats.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/22/2003 12:57 Comments ||
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"Foreign policy isnât a John Wayne movie, where we catch the bad guys, hoist a few cold ones, and then everything fades to black." If all goes right Dick that is exactly what happens! Dick I like that bug on the winsheild comment.
#8
"because I believe George Bush has left us less safe, and less secure, than we were four years ago."
Defeating the Taliban and Hussein makes us less safe and secure? To paraphrase this same dimwit from last week, when they were giving out the grades for works well with others logic, Gephardt failed. Which is why this sells in Cambridge.
#9
By the way, and to continue stirring things up - did you know that while little Dick has been out selling his soul for the Dem nomination, he's missed 90% of House votes? 90%! His constituents should demand a refund of his salary, then recall the SOB
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 13:23 Comments ||
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Come on now, lets weigh foreign policy stands by the parties in a "fair and balanced" way. Republican Machismo, where the country actually takes action to defend its citizens and their interests. OR Democrat Arrant Cowardice, where interns huff and puff and blow the President down, we apologize humbly for our very existence and the Tranzis put us all in little padded closets with IV feeding and VR for entertainment. Hmmmmm.....
#11
"Bush is macho". "Bush is John Wayne." "Bush is a cowboy."
Why are any of those bad things? I like the fact that Bush is macho, decisive and ready to meet the challenge. Since when is a cowboy bad? As a kid, cowboys were my here and I still greatly admire cowboys for their forthrightness, tenacity and willingness to face the threat at hand. I say "Let's have more cowboy diplomacy!"
#14
U.S. Democratic presidential hopeful Richard Gephardt on Tuesday condemned President Bushâs foreign policy as "machismo" and "arrogant unilateralism,"..
Why is this guy bringing this "unilateralism" bullshit up again?
#15
All of the above comments are on the mark. As a linguist, I find it amazing that the Dems still find solace in using "arrogance" and "cowboy" in describing our actions. They've been reading Le Monde way too much. We've been multilateral, gave the Weasels plenty of time to come around, gave Saddam 17 resolutions before going in.
The world is safer, Dick. Saudi is finally taking action. That's better, don't you think? I could go on. Class time.
Posted by: Michael ||
07/22/2003 16:33 Comments ||
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There's that word "unilateralism" again.... Wonder where Dick was last week, when none other than Tony Brair.... I think he's from UK and not US, was speaking about the war in Iraq, and about the UK and other allies being there, right there in buddy Dick's own House!
Oh -- Dick wasn/t there? Didn't hear that speech? hummm..... understandable, since he never seems to show up anymore -- particularity after that 2002 November beating the Demos had with him as it's "head!"
Poor guy....
Posted by: Me ||
07/22/2003 16:44 Comments ||
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Gephart reminds me of the "Sensitive Policeman from Blagulon Kappa" in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
"Now see here, guy! You're not dealing with any dumb two-bit trigger-pumping morons with low hairlines, little piggy eyes and no conversation, we're a couple of intelligent caring guys that you'd probably quite like if you met us socially! I don't go around gratuitously shooting people and then bragging about it afterwards in seedy space-ranger bars, like some cops I could mention! I go around shooting people gratuitously and then I agonize about it afterwards for hours to my girlfriend!"
Posted by: Mike ||
07/22/2003 17:31 Comments ||
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gephart is so pathetic...the man will never learn...at times he seems to in the middle then he opens his mouth!
Posted by: Dan ||
07/22/2003 17:38 Comments ||
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Okay. Dick supported the war and won't apologize for it. But he thinks that the President, the one he supported, was too macho. Even though he supported him. This is an interesting electoral strategy for Gephardt. He's trying to position himself as the only Democratic candidate in the race courageous enough to break ranks with himself.
Posted by: Christopher Johnson ||
07/22/2003 18:32 Comments ||
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nice jab Christopher, and nice blog too
Frank
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 18:57 Comments ||
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JPost - Reg Reqâd
Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said he does not plan to crack down on Palestinian terror groups. "I want to stay alive"
"Cracking down on Hamas, Jihad and the Palestinian organizations is not an option at all," Abbas said after meeting with Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa in Cairo today. "We are applying the law which we accepted under the leadership of the Palestinian Authority, and that is what we will do." Youâre holding the Road Map upside down dammit!
The road map calls for a Palestinian "dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure." Palestinians say they have collected some weapons and on Sunday reissued a 1998 decree ineffectively outlawing the violent groups - but Abbas is reluctant to order a forceful crackdown for fear of sparking a civil war and getting himself boomed.
The road map stipulates that these and other steps should be taken by the end of the year. That is to be followed by a second phase of the plan which foresees a provisional Palestinian state with temporary borders. A third phase in 2005 would address final borders, the future of settlers and refugees, and Jerusalem. If they donât do the first steps who gives a ratsâ ass what it says in future years? Canât get there from here if you donât take the first steps
However, Abbas will ask the United States to press for a firm schedule of peace moves when he meets with US President George W. Bush this week, a Palestinian lawmaker said Tuesday.
Abbas "cannot come back empty handed from Washington," said Palestinian legislator Saeb Erekat. "Itâs essential for Bush to send (Abbas) back with a comprehensive implementation plan ... especially timelines and monitors." Give us something even though we refuse to follow the agreement we just signed.
Abbasâ scheduled White House meeting Friday will be the first in almost three years for a Palestinian leader, and will be followed by Bushâs meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on July 29. I would expect a chillier reception for Abbas, and these statements donât wrm it up at all
Violence is down sharply since Palestinian militants declared a unilateral truce on June 29 after 33 months of fighting that killed 2,414 people on the Palestinian side and 806 on the Israeli side.
However, in the North, Hizbullah in southern Lebanon fired at least two salvoes of anti-aircraft shells into the town of Shlomii, injuring two people, the army said. asking for a couple jet-dropped cans of whupass
Despite the drop in violence in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, progress on implementing the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan is stalled. The plan - a blueprint for ending violence and establishing a Palestinian state by 2005 - calls on the sides to carry out their obligations in parallel.
Abbas said he would use his trip to Washington "to convince (the United States) with our viewpoint in order to pressure Israel and in order to carry out its duty toward the Palestinian issue." STFU and start doing what you agreed to or get out, coward
Among Israelâs obligations is the dismantling of the roughly 100 illegal settlement outposts in the West Bank. The government has removed about a dozen; others have gone back up. In the Knesset on Monday, Sharon pledged to remove illegal outposts, but opposition legislators said his moves were only for show.
The road map calls on Israel to freeze all construction in the 150 veteran Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. It also says Israel should withdraw troops gradually from Palestinian towns it has occupied for more than a year. The IDF withdrew this month from parts of Gaza and Bethlehem, but says it will not return any other areas until the Palestinians disarm the militant groups. parallel efforts, right?
The road map does not address the question of the estimated 7,700 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel for alleged involvement in terrorism.
The issue has become a major point of contention, with the Palestinians saying a mass release would give Abbas a critical boost among his people and militant groups warning they will call off the truce unless the prisoners are freed.
The government has agreed to release only a few hundred, fearing a large-scale release would boost the militant groups. There have been some signs in recent days the government may be reconsidering its position, however.
Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and Shin Bet security agency chief Avi Dichter were to meet Tuesday to discuss a list of eligible prisoners. No announcement on a release was expected before the Sharon-Bush meeting, however Another effort by the Paleos to get something for nothing. Donât comply with the Road Map requiremnts, but demand other concessions by Israel "to help us try and comply" . Bah!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 12:31:28 PM ||
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"Na na na na, Na na na na, Hey Road Map, Goodbye!!!"
The Palestinians Syria has granted a haven are engaged in a struggle for freedom, not terrorism, a Syrian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said Tuesday in response to renewed criticism from U.S. President George W. Bush. Speaking at a joint news conference at his Texas ranch with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, Bush on Monday accused Syria and Iran of continuing to harbor terrorists and said terrorism was the greatest obstacle to peace in the region. The United States has labeled hard-line Palestinian groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad â which have carried out suicide attacks on Israeli civilians â that for years operated out of Damascus as terrorist. Under U.S. pressure, Syria recently closed the offices of the Palestinian groups, but most of their officials continue to work from their homes in Damascus or from neighboring Beirut, Lebanon. Telecommuting also helps you avoid car bombs, ambushes and those pesky helicopter gunships.
"It is not possible for Syria to consider the Palestinian struggle for freedom, independence and ending Israeli occupation (of Arab territories) to be terrorism," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Buthaina Shaaban said at a news conference in Damascus Tuesday. "Cuz that would mean facing reality and we canât do that."
Shaaban called Bushâs criticism "part of continued old and new pressures (exerted) because of Syriaâs clear stands regarding events in the region," Shaaban said. How about that, he got one right!
Syrian-U.S. relations have long been strained by Washington allegations that Damascus supports terrorism. During the Iraqi war, tension heightened when the United States accused Syria of supplying military equipment to the Iraqis and giving refuge to members of the ousted government of President Saddam Hussein. Syria denied the charges. "Wasnât us, it was somebody else."
Posted by: Steve ||
07/22/2003 11:56:11 AM ||
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I have an idea! Why don't we take a bunch of our tanks and planes and head West, and the Israelis take their tanks and planes and head North Northeast and we'll shake hands somewhere in the Middle. Bet there'd be a whole bunch of shut-up breaking out in the mosques.
#3
I would still like to know the status and level of Iraqi oil imports into Syria. They are at the mercy of our valve operators, and Syrian oil fields have been overpumped in the past, which has hurt them. Syria needs to comply or go dry....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/22/2003 15:01 Comments ||
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Mmmmm... Vitriol! My favorite!
Iran has denied new American claims that it was harbouring terrorists, saying the United States was the one doing so in Iraq. "I reject the allegations," visiting Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi told reporters in Pretoria on Tuesday. Uh huh, no way, not us, itâs...uh someone else. The U.S.!
"I believe it is the American administration which is harbouring terrorists because right now in Iraq there is an organisation called MKO, which are Iranian terrorists."
They surrendered to us a month or so ago, and we've shut them down. Try again...
Kharrazi was speaking at the conclusion of the seventh session of the bilateral commission between South Africa and Iran. He said there was nothing new about charges on Monday by US President George W Bush that Syria and Iran were guilty of supporting and harbouring terrorists. meaning: yes we still are...nothing new here
Bush said it was time for all governments in the Middle East to support Israel and the Palestinians in their quest to end the conflict between them. "This includes the governments of Syria and Iran. Today, Syria and Iran continue to harbour and assist terrorism. This behaviour is completely unacceptable," Bush said. Kharrazi said on Tuesday: "Iran has not been harbouring terrorists, but has been fighting against terrorists."
"You just don't notice it..."
If Bush meant Iran was giving refuge to members of the al-Qaeda terrorists organisation, he was also missing the mark, Kharrazi said. After all, one manâs terrorist is another manâs innocent Iranian citizen looking for democracy
"We have arrested many al-Qaeda members and those who have been associated with al-Qaeda and the Taliban. They have been sent back to their original countries or were imprisoned." Some were currently being prosecuted.
If the are, why not tell us about it?
In contrast, Kharrazi said, the US had signed a truce with Iranian terrorists in Iraq. "That is harbouring terrorists." Kharrazi said the MKO terrorists used to operate from Iraq against Iran under the regime of toppled Iraqi president Saddam Hussein. "They are safeguarded there, they have their own mass media, and they are pretty active." This group was, moreover, listed as a terrorist body by the US, Kharrazi said.
They also surrendered to us (he said, repeating himself) and we shut down their military operations...
On the Middle East, he reiterated Iranâs pessimism about the road map peace plan, which has been endorsed by South Africa. "Naturally there are differences between us and South Africa," he said. "(But) if the South African people have succeeded in transferring the apartheid regime to a democracy... there is no reason why the people in the Middle East canât do the same."
"Or at least to some sort of Paleodemocracy..."
South African Foreign Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, who co-chaired the bilateral commission, said South Africa and Iran agreed that the Middle East conflict ought to be resolved, but differed on how this should be done. "How it should be done may be a matter of different nuances, but we both agree on where to go and how to go in principle," she said. In a statement after the bilateral commission, the two ministers said both sides recognised the right of the Palestinian people to determine their own destiny. They agreed to work together and to have regular consultations to promote just and lasting peace in the Middle East. Dlamini-Zuma denied that the statement amounted to a "glossing over" of major differences on the Middle East issue.
"No, no! We have many, many points of agreement. For instance, it is Tuesday..."
"Wednesday."
"Late Tuesday..."
"Wednesday."
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/22/2003 10:06:14 AM ||
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Mortar barrages and the some of the bloodiest fighting to date tore apart Liberiaâs capital, as Marines at a U.S. Embassy compound evacuated foreign aid workers and journalists in helicopters. As pressure grew on Washington to send U.S. peacekeepers, Liberiaâs Defense Minister Daniel Chea claimed over 600 people had died in recent days, but there was no way to independently confirm the figure. "Liberian Defense Minister": A looter that stole the best looking uniform and impressed Chuck Taylor.
In a phone interview on Monday, embattled Liberian President Charles Taylor repeated his call for a promised west African peacekeeping force to arrive quickly to âbring some sanityâ to the nation founded by freed American slaves. Chuckie doesnât want to be caught by the LURD rebels, because he remembers what happened to Samuel Doe, the enlisted man in the Liberian army that shot his way into rule about 20 years ago. Doe was captured by Taylorâs thugs and slowly carved to death with knives--all proudly videotaped for posterity. Whatsamatta, Chuckie?
I thought it was Prince Johnson who slaughtered Doe like a goat?
But Taylor said the best way to ensure stability was through U.S. troops on the ground, in addition to the Marines guarding the U.S. Embassy. âAn American contingent would be excellent.â Excellent because his lying murderous ass will stay and use the Americans for cover.
Meanwhile, a storm of mortars rocked residential neighborhoods along with two U.S. Embassy compounds in rebels third attempt to take Monrovia â Taylorâs last stronghold. Tick. Tick. Tick.
American helicopters landed in the Embassy compound in a driving rain Monday, dropping off about half of a 41-member Marine security team. The troops, who were sent to beef up security at the embassy, evacuated about 23 foreign humanitarian workers and journalists. Hopefully this is ALL we will do.
Thousands of angry Liberians stood outside the embassy asking when U.S. troops would come to protect them. Refugees hurled rocks at an NBC News crew that approached the scene, demanding to know whether reporter Michael Davie was American. Davie, who is in Monrovia on assignment for MSNBCâs âNational Geographic Explorer,â is Australian. "Itâs the Americanâs fault that we are dying!" sheesh
"Yeah! It's America's fault we're killing each other!"
âPeople are dying!â a refugee yelled. âThey canât come in to rescue us?â So WE can die in YOUR civil war???
U.S. officials announced that 4,500 more American sailors and Marines have been ordered to position themselves closer to Liberia, if needed for an evacuation of Americans, peacekeeping or some other mission. The USS Iwo Jima amphibious assault task force â with 2,000 Marines and 2,500 sailors on three ships â was ordered to leave Djibouti on Africaâs east coast and head for the Mediterranean Sea in the direction of Liberia, NBCâs Jim Miklaszewski reported. The trip is expected to take three weeks.
I'd guess it'll all be over by then, to include the worst of the looting and reprisals...
âWeâre concerned about our people,â President Bush told reporters in Crawford, Texas. He indicated he had not yet decided the size of a U.S. force that might be sent to help a promised West African peacekeeping mission in Liberia. The State Department criticized the rebel group Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy for âreckless and indiscriminate shootingâ and appealed to neighboring African countries to guard against weapons going to Liberia. Joe Wylie, a rebel delegate at peace talks in Ghana, said the government was also firing shells.
Ahhh... Good point.
The rebels were ânot responsible for shooting mortars into the embassy,â Wylie said. âWe have our backs to the U.S. Embassy. ... They (government forces) were shooting at us.â Nevertheless, U.S. officials told NBCâs Miklaszewski that there was no evidence that the U.S. Embassy in Monrovia was attacked on purpose. During 2Âœ hours of sustained mortar fire, a shell slammed into a U.S. Embassy residential compound where some 10,000 terrified Liberians had taken refuge, killing 25 people, aid workers said. Many more were wounded, including two Liberian embassy guards.
Musta been packed in there like sardines...
After the blasts, enraged Liberians dragged bodies from the residential compound and lined them up in front of the embassy, next to a wall emblazoned with the American seal. The group demanded to know why Washington has not sent troops to end more than a decade of strife in the West African nation. âWeâre dying here,â screamed some in the crowd, as two American servicemen in camouflage watched from behind bulletproof glass.
That's your right as a citizen of a free and sovreign nation...
One man held up a hastily scrawled sign: âToday G. Bush kill Liberia people.â
Nope. He's in Texas, eating barbeque with Berlusconi. Liberia's chock full of Liberians, killing Liberian people. Send tribute, accept a governor general, and then you're got a bitch when things go wrong...
More than 360 people were injured â some hauled to the hospital in wheelbarrows, others screaming in pain. Monday appeared to be the bloodiest in two months of fighting by rebels attempting to seize the capital. Among the injured, Tom Masland, an American who is Newsweekâs African regional editor, was hit in the arm by shrapnel.
10,000 packed in the embassy compound, 60 bumped off by a single mortar, and Tom's flesh wound makes the news...
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan once again urged Washington and West African states to commit troops. âI think we can really salvage the situation if troops were to be deployed urgently and promptly,â he said. A senior Defense Department official told NBC News that the West African forces would most likely be joined later by a small number of U.S. personnel who would provide command and control, communications and logistical support for a short time. Ahh. Finally, a sensible remark.
Taylor has pledged to resign and accept an offer of asylum in Nigeria â but only after peacekeepers arrive to ensure an orderly transition. But in his interview with the AP, he also hinted he might make other demands of Bush before agreeing to step down. Chuckie, weâre on to your scam.
âI have written him a letter outlining to him certain things that are necessary for me to step down and certain things that are necessary for me to leave the country,â said Taylor, without elaborating. Bush has said any deployment of U.S. troops is conditional on the departure of Taylor, a former warlord indicted for war crimes in Sierra Leone, where he supported a brutal rebel movement.Taylor launched Liberiaâs last civil war in 1989, emerging in 1996 as the strongest warlord. He was elected president the following year, and now faces rebels who include former rivals from the earlier war. Just another Sub-Saharan Africa basket case. Next.
Posted by: TJ ||
07/22/2003 8:48:16 AM ||
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Read in the Chicago Trib this morning statements by Susan Rice, Clinton's DOState Africa honcho, and Salih Booker, head of Africa Action, bitching and moaning about Bush not taking action and "allowing" the situation to deteriorate. Whatever. This same type of B&M technique was the one that got Bush I to send troops to Somalia in '92. You know, "The US only cares about countries that have oil!" type of argument. Look how that turned out, although there WAS food sent in, and there WAS a large international contingent there before the Blackhawk Down incident. IIRC, the fact was that we had overstayed our welcome because civilians got killed in the crossfire between UN forces and warlords, plus there was friction in the C&C structure between various militaries (paks, Moroccans, Canadians, etc.)
So, here goes. If our 4,500 guys go in and some civilians get killed, or 15-year old fighters from ANY group get killed, Susan and Salih and their ilk will shut up, please. No micromanaging from think tanks in DC. Otherwise, providing C&C, communications and logistical support in support of ECOWAS is good enough for me. Let's not put our guys on the ground and then have them have to interview people with AK's and RPG's just to see on whose side they are. Ridiculous. And I don't care we've got some kind of special relationship with Liberia. It was never a colony. Plus this war has been going on for more than a decade, so now it's Bush's fault?
I wonder if Susan or Salih would mind a JDAM being delivered on Taylor's doorstep. That might start to solve the problem a bit.
Posted by: Michael ||
07/22/2003 11:18 Comments ||
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The Liberians blaming the US for the carnage does not give me a warm and fuzzy about intervention. It turns me against intervention because if they're blaming us now there will be no end to the blame later. I wonder if that's there intent.
#3
In the words of the BBC anchorwoman just minutes ago:"The US stands accused of squandering its chance to intervene."(Emphasis mine -EI)Catch-22,anyone?
Posted by: El Id ||
07/22/2003 14:12 Comments ||
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#4
We committed major resources to Bosnia and Kosovo. We did Haiti and Somalia. It's somebody else's turn.
#5
I like the way Bush is handling the whole situation. Chuckie Cheese isn't gonna play Bush for a sucker.
Let's face it. They want us to end their civil war, rebuild their infrastructure (ahhh the American dollar) get them on their feet, tell us to leave when they have everything they want and then repeat the whole damn cycle of violence again because they're idiots consumed by greed and corruption (not to mention tribalism). Then they'll blame us for everything all over again. The problem with countries like this is that they believe they are entitled to a free lunch at America's expense. Well Joe Liberia, don't believe the hype.
As for the casualties JOE, they're caused by Liberians in Liberia. Why don't you give ole Coffee Ann Ann a call. I'm sure the rest of the world is in no hurry to help you either. (Remember Rwanda?) Then again that was the America's fault as well, wasn't it?
By the way, where are the dynamic duds? (Al and Jesse) What, are their capes still at the dry cleaners?
Posted by: Paul ||
07/22/2003 14:28 Comments ||
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#6
No War For Chocolate! Or those weird Silver Dollar thingys we see on TV, either.
Honestly, there isn't even a way to do an altruistic good turn in Liberia. We have armed teenagers shooting the crap out of the country, and if the US intervenes we'll be "killing babies." What a load of steaming turds. Same thing goes for the US somehow having a "responsibility" for Liberia.
Not only was Liberia NOT founded by freed slaves, it WAS founded by a group of American citizens who felt that free black people had no business in the New World. The US didn't have formal relations with Liberia until after the war. So what part of this makes it our problem?
The Arab League said on Sunday it hoped to help Sudan stay united by financing projects in the south, but would respect the wishes of southerners if they voted to secede. Some Arab states, especially Sudan's northern neighbour Egypt, fear ongoing talks between the Sudanese government and southern rebels could lead to secession and instability in their backyard.
As opposed to the rock-solid stability they have now...
The two sides have already agreed to a referendum on secession. Some two million people have been killed since war erupted in 1983. The rebels want more autonomy for the largely animist or Christian south from the mostly Muslim north. The conflict is exacerbated by issues, including oil and tribal loyalties. Peace talks are to resume in Kenya this week, after hitting a snag over the latest proposals from mediators. "Our main objective is to work on the development of southern Sudan as part of efforts to make unity an attractive option," said Samir Hosni, head of the League's African and Afro-Arab Cooperation Department. "We have received pledges from the Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development and Arab states. Some $117 million are ready to be used to finance and implement projects, such as a main road linking the north and the south," he told Reuters. Hosni said development of the south was not a "bribe" to get southerners to vote for unity in the future referendum, scheduled to take place six years after a peace deal is reached. "If southern Sudan chooses secession after the referendum, we will respect fully the decision of the southern Sudanese people sand we will continue our role to preserve the common interests there and in order to have good relations with a new... neighbour," he said.
"If a bunch of gunnies happens to infiltrate to shoot people up and grab of the young babes as sex toys, we'll deeply sympathize..."
Arab League chief Amr Moussa last month became the first leader of the pan-Arab body to visit southern Sudan in 50 years, trying to bridge differences between the government and rebels of the Sudan Peoples Liberation Army.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 08:24 ||
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A Mauritanian army officer who was extradited from Senegal to face charges of involvement in last month's failed coup against President Maaouiya Sid'Ahmed Ould Taya, will be tried by a civil not a military court. Lieutenant M'hamed Ould Didi, who fled to Senegal shortly after the collapse of the June 8 military rebellion, was sent back to the Mauritanian capital Nouakchott last Friday. Judge Mohamed Ould Babana, a member of The Gambia-based African Commission for Human Rights, said Didi and all others who might subsequently be charged in connection with the coup attempt would be tried under civilian law. Human rights activists had expressed fears that the coup plotters would face a military tribunal that would be more be likely to impose death sentences or that — as in previous instances — they might face summary execution.
The people who were killed in the coup attempt received informal death sentences, didn't they?
Military sources have said that about 150 serving and retired soldiers had been arrested for questioning in connection with the coup attempt, which led to two days of fierce fighting in the capital. At least 29 people were killed during the uprising, during which rebel tanks shelled the presidential palace.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 08:08 ||
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President George W Bush on Friday hit out at six regimes on a United States blacklist he said were guilty of oppression and human rights abuses in Myanmar, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe and Belarus. In a proclamation issued to mark "Captive Nations Week" first observed in 1959 as a statement against communism, Bush hit out at a familiar gallery of US foes. "Millions of people still live under regimes that violate their citizens' rights daily," Bush said in a statement issued as he made a day-trip to Dallas from his Texas ranch.
"In countries such as Burma (renamed Myanmar by the ruling military junta in 1989) and Iran, citizens lack the right to choose their government, speak out against oppression, and practice their religion freely," Bush said.
"The despot who rules Cuba imprisons political opponents and crushes peaceful opposition," he said, in barbed remarks aimed at Fidel Castro.
There were also harsh words for North Korea, with which Washington has been locked in a nuclear weapons showdown since October. "Hundreds of thousands languish in prison camps, and citizens suffer from malnutrition as the regime pursues weapons of mass destruction," Bush said.
"Violence, corruption, and mismanagement reign in Zimbabwe, and an authoritarian government in Belarus smothers political dissent."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 08:04 ||
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Sao Tome and Principe's ousted President Fradique de Menezes, who soldiers toppled from power in the tiny oil-rich West African island nation on Wednesday, was trying to negotiate with the coup leaders to peacefully renounce their action, an official said. "The president is trying to reach a peaceful resolution of the crisis," presidential spokesman Guillerme Neto, told in IRIN on Thursday in the Nigerian capital, Abuja, where Menezes was visiting when the pre-dawn coup took place. Neto did not give details but news agencies said Nigeria would send an envoy to meet the coup leaders. The African Union President who is also Mozambiquan head of state, Joachim Chissano, has condemned the coup as did the US government, the UN secretary-General Kofi Annan and several world leaders. "The African Union will not accept the coup and will seek a restoration of the constitutional government to power through peaceful means," Chissano said on Thursday at the Sullivan Summit leadership conference attended by several African and African-American leaders. De Menezes on Wednesday appealed to "all democrats, world leaders and African leaders" to help restore democratic order in the country. He was quoted by the BBC as saying the coup was about oil.
I think they had another coup like this a few years ago, and it was "solved" the same way. I have no idea whether it really is "all about ooiiilllll!" since Beebs says that about most things. It could be, though...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 08:00 ||
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Personally, I think we should make this country the newest member of the United States. That would cut out the coup attempts (most of them anyway), give the U.S. some more oil fields to develop (unless the Sierra Club kills the drilling), and there would be a neat place to go to on the Africa side of the world. Just think about it.
It's an old tradition of those engaged in Armed Struggle™...
However, officials close to the negotiations said that on Sunday progress had been made and that, for the first time, the parties had discussed "real issues".
Working out how they're gonna split the swag, are they?
"Although it wasn't concluded today, they [the government and the rebels] were having serious discussions," a source told IRIN on Sunday. "They talked about positions in government and the details of the Forces Technical Agreement. This is very positive." A full summit to "finalise all outstanding matters" will be convened within three weeks, the facilitator of the peace talks announced.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 07:52 ||
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Rebel forces continued to pound the Liberian capital Monrovia with mortar fire on Monday as fierce street fighting continued in the city centre and rebel reinforcements moved to cut off roads to the interior. The government of President Charles Taylor, who has promised to step down as soon as West African peacekeeping forces arrive in the country, swore to battle on. But many government fighters took advantage of the chaos on Monday to break into closed shops in the city centre in a fresh wave of looting.
Gotta provide for the future, which is now the immediate future...
Dozens of people have been killed and hundreds have been wounded since the Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy (LURD) rebel movement launched its third attack on Monrovia in less than two months on July 17. The Italian Missionary Service News Agency reported that at least 20 displaced people were killed on Saturday when a shell landed in the Freemasons hall in the city centre, where they had gathered to take shelter. And a Liberian employee of the medical charity Medecins Sans Frontieres was killed on Sunday when a mortar hit his home. Relief workers in the beleaguered city of one million people said three civilians died on Monday when several mortar shells landed near the US embassy in the Mamba Point diplomatic district. "Shooting and shelling close to our hospitals is making it nearly impossible for us to treat our patients safely," Alain Kassa, MSF head of mission in Monrovia said. "Yesterday, a bullet landed in the middle of our hospital's pediatric ward even as war wounded civilians continued to arrive. Today, we fear the fighting in the streets is so intense that the wounded cannot be transported to the hospital for treatment," he said, adding that MSF medical staff were looking after more than 80 wounded civilians.
This part of it will let up once Chuck's gone — I still think tomorrow. It'll be followed by looting and reprisals, but at least the open warfare part will be over, for good if Chuck's a deader.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
07/22/2003 07:48 ||
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But many government fighters took advantage of the chaos on Monday to break into closed shops in the city centre in a fresh wave of looting.
You're kidding: you mean there were shops in Monrovia that hadn't yet been looted? Bunch of slackers.
And fails. EFL
Ever since the Northâs admission that it has a nuclear programme, South Koreans have felt a greater divide with their neighbours in the North. But Park Heung Bokâs biggest concern is the division he feels with the younger generationâs liberal attitude towards the communist state. "The reconciliatory policy has only helped Kim Jong-il make his nuclear bomb," he said. "Young people are so naive — they didnât experience the war and they did not see the atrocities of the communists. "The younger generation think itâs just history, and a war can never happen here again. Itâs a very dangerous situation."
"Nope. Can't happen here, 'cuz we're special..."
Back at Mr Parkâs home, his 20-year-old grandson Hyun Jin is typical of this new generation. As the family eats together around the dining table, Hyun Jin talks about how he has spent the day. Rarely would he try to talk about North Korea in front of his medal-decorated grandfather. "North Koreans are hungry and so much in suffering. I feel sorry for them that they are always being pressurised by the United States," Hyun Jin said. One of the most remarkable things about the whole Korean conflict is how successful the NorKs have been at getting the younger generation to swallow their propaganda line. I guess those KCNA articles donât translate well.
"My grandfather has strong anti-communist feelings because he fought in the war. Iâm not as anti-North Korean as he is. Iâm more anti-American."
"That's ever so much more fashionable..."
This is the biggest fear of Park Heung Bok. As the nuclear tension rises, Mr Park worries that the attitude of most South Koreans — like that of his grandson — is too soft about North Korea. "The communists are all liars. I wonder how we could live together with them if the Koreas ever reunify," he said. "Young people should not be fooled by the North Koreans, and should arm themselves with a stronger sense of anti-communism. We should be prepared for any physical attack by North Korea." I couldnât have said it better than Granddad.
They might even give some thought to the mechanism the NKors plan to use for "reunification." The last go-around featured an NKor attempt to "reunify" the country...
To Hyun Jin, a second Korean War is something he has never really thought about. And he sounded doubtful that his generation — having grown up in a more prosperous environment — would be ready to deal with a war if it ever happened. "My grandfather knows how to fight, so Iâm sure heâll stand up again to protect the country," [!] Hyun Jin said. "But I get a feeling young people like myself — we donât know a thing about war. Somehow I get the feeling that weâll just be running for our lives." Yeah, your 70-year old grandfather will protect you. Reading this makes me so proud of the young men and women in Iraq. I thought there was conscription in Korea. Do college kids get a deferment?
Posted by: 11A5S ||
07/22/2003 12:28:18 AM ||
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Even though I know the reporting has described the current fat & happy young Pollyannas in SKor, it really pisses me off to read this guy's comments. 20 yrs old? Sounds like a no-clue pre-teen.
Grandpa has some work to do. And he'd better hurry. Reality's coming. Soon.
#2
If it wasn't for this grandpa I'd say let them eat grass.
Posted by: Rafael ||
07/22/2003 1:51 Comments ||
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South Korean sounds like what the US could be like in 30 years, which is truly amazing.
Think about it for a second. South Korea's "Baby Boom" generation grew up in the late 50s and 60s, slightly later than the US Baby Boom. These kids are the third generation after the war, like my kids are.
These children are affluent, educated, and know even less about the realities of the world. At least our Gen-X's have had to experience Iraq (twice), Bosnia, Kosovo, and 9/11. These kids have none of that. Just affluence AND the experience of seeing foreign troops in their country all the time.
Like most kids, they worship the "other," that which is not their parents or grandparents. The other is always better than what their relatives know.
I can't believe that all Korean kids have gone this soft in the head, but over and over again your read about them and this kid sounds typical, not unique...
They're in trouble...big trouble.
Posted by: R. McLeod ||
07/22/2003 3:16 Comments ||
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While infuriating, the denial that seems to exist in the South comes from the reality that Seoul is toast whatever happens if worse comes to worse.
Still, if we're seen as the problem and not the solution I'm all for our people checking out.
#5
to follow up on hiryu - the SKor dovish position re NKOR nukes makes perfect sense. NKOR doesnt need nukes to threaten Seoul = all those artillery pieces are just as effective. Nukes are a weapon for NKOR to blackmail the US - by threatening Japan perhaps, or even more likely by threatening to sell the nukes to the middle east. Thats a big problem for the US - its hardly a concern of South Korea.
#6
I can't help but wonder why the South Koreans didn't try to shift some of their population south, away from North Korean artillery. Seoul changed hands a few time during the last war, and artillery is not exactly new technology. The threat to Seoul is longstanding and has been ignored.
#7
The key here is not North KOREAN vs South KOREAN,
it's simply KOREAN.
The Chinese are casually racist: "You're not
Chinese? Sorry for you."
The Japanese are insularly racist: "We're separate. We must be special. We ARE special."
The Korean's make either of them look like pikers.
It's been a feature of Korean nationalism for
centuries, as a way to make itself proof against the "mongrelization" inherant in being invaded, by the Chinese on their way to Japan, or the Japanese on their way to China, time after time.
These kids view it not as NK against SK, but rather Korea against the world.
#8
The key here is not North KOREAN vs South KOREAN,
it's simply KOREAN.
The Chinese are casually racist: "You're not
Chinese? Sorry for you."
The Japanese are insularly racist: "We're separate. We must be special. We ARE special."
The Korean's make either of them look like pikers.
It's been a feature of Korean nationalism for
centuries, as a way to make itself proof against the "mongrelization" inherant in being invaded, by the Chinese on their way to Japan, or the Japanese on their way to China, time after time.
These kids view it not as NK against SK, but rather Korea against the world.
The United Nations peacekeeping mission in Kosovo says a Zimbabwean police officer serving with it has been withdrawn from public duties because of allegations that he was involved in torture whilst working in Harare. But the United Nations says it cannot take any other action against the officer. Of course not â otherwise no other thugocracy will nominate its police thugs to serve wth the UN in Kosovo!
The British-based organisation, Redress, which campaigns against torture, says it has evidence that Detective-Inspector Henry Dowa, now serving with the UN in Kosovo, has been involved in human rights abuses. The allegations relate to incidents in Harare involving the use of electric cables and severe beatings. Trained by the NKors, maybe?
A spokesman for the UN mission in Kosovo told the BBC that in the light of these allegations, Mr Dowa had been withdrawn from duties where he might interact with the public, but he was still doing administrative work. But the spokesman said no further action could be taken against Mr Dowa, because he was not accused of committing any crimes whilst in Kosovo. The spokesman also said the mission did not have the capacity to vet police officers before they travelled to Kosovo. "The person who does that is in Geneva. For lunch. Call back."
Redress says this is not acceptable, and has written to the UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, saying Mr Dowa should be arrested and tried. UN officials in New York told the BBC that a decision on this case is imminent. Redress argues that if Mr Dowa were allowed to return to Zimbabwe, he would be extremely unlikely to face prosecution, given the current political climate. Wow, an NGO that actually recognizes reality.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/22/2003 12:24:50 AM ||
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Ack, munged the title. Fred, a little help please? Thx,
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/22/2003 0:25 Comments ||
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Seems like a job for the ICC, if there ever was one. [smirks]
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
