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Yasser to get the boot?
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-Short Attention Span Theater-
Man Must Share Pension with Ex-Wife’s Husband
Unbelievable - Oh wait, its Germany, Yeah it is!
A German court has told a man that the pension he used to share with his ex-wife must now be shared with her widowed husband. Bernhard Wanwitz, a judge at the administrative court in the western city of Mainz, said the man withdrew an appeal to keep his entire pension when the court said the widower was entitled to a share of his late wife’s divorce settlement. Under German law, when a couple divorces, the ex-spouse with the smaller pension has a right to top-up payments from the other’s pension. After the woman died, her new husband inherited her pension and then exercised his right to collect the money. The retired civil servant will now have to pay around 700 euros ($785) of his pension each month to the widower. "This is the first time I can recall a case like this," said Wanwitz.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 09/11/2003 12:03:54 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I can believe it. Trust me, after living in Germany for the last 12+ years, nothing surprises me with their "justice" system anymore.
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 12:16 Comments || Top||

#2  "This is the first time I can recall a case like this," said Wanwitz.

Now that the precedent has been set, it probably won't be the last time either.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 12:30 Comments || Top||

#3  And here I thought the good ole U.S.A had a monopoly on this kind of shait...
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/11/2003 12:41 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan
Afghans remember assassinated leader
Hundreds of top Afghan political and military figures gathered in the Panjshir Valley on Wednesday to mark an anniversary many link with the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States. Two days before the jetliners crashed into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in rural Pennsylvania, a suicide bomber in Afghanistan killed Ahmad Shah Massood. Massood was a revered warrior and avowed enemy of the Taliban regime. Massood, the leader of the Northern Alliance, was known as the Lion of Panjshir. He was killed by an assassin posing as a journalist who planted a bomb inside a camera that detonated during a Sept. 9, 2001, interview. It’s believed his killing was the work of Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda and aimed at eliminating a key enemy just before the attacks on the U.S. The pilgrimage to Massood’s tomb followed a larger memorial service held Tuesday that attracted more than 1,500 people to Massood’s domed, hilltop mausoleum in the Panjshir Valley, about 150 kilometres north of Kabul.
Posted by: Rafael || 09/11/2003 3:35:22 AM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Massood may bot have been perfect, but he was a man of courage and would have been a valued ally against the Taliban.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 11:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Without the work he did before his death, we would have had an infinitely worse go of it in Afghanistan. Osama knew it too; and that's why Masoud had to die. RIP.
Posted by: seafarious || 09/11/2003 13:34 Comments || Top||


Arabia
Saudi Clerics Hit More Rights for Women
If these orifices had mothers, I'll bet their opinions would be different...
Prominent Saudi clerics and academics warned Wednesday against calls for equality and increased rights for women, saying such efforts aim to make Muslim women more like "infidel" Western types.
Oh, Lawsie! Oh, help us all! Not "infidels"?
Efforts to give women greater rights are part of an anti-Islamic campaign spearheaded by the United States, said 130 Saudi sheiks and academics in a statement obtained by The Associated Press Wednesday.
"If they ain't cattle, they ain't Islamic..."
Women in Saudi Arabia are segregated in public places, they cannot drive cars, and they must be covered from head to toe in public in this strict conservative society.
The sight of a Soddy woman's ankle is said to drive men insane. And Soddy men have all seen one...
Islamic laws protect women and their rights, the statement said.
"You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to walk three paces behind your owner. You have the right to breed annually..."
It said efforts to change such traditions are "a vicious campaign from (the Muslim community's) enemy, led by the American government, to divert it from its faith." U.S. criticism of Saudi Arabia's lack of democracy and support for militant Islam in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States have forced the government to open up somewhat. Newspaper and magazine articles and television programs began to discuss reform, and even host women, something that used to be taboo here.
That's where they saw all those ankles, I'll bet...
The statement said equality between men and women is not possible under Islam. "Any calls for absolute equality is an illegal and illogical call," the statement said. It said allowing women to drive, a repeated request in the kingdom, would lead to "many evils."
"Them hussies'll be zooming off in all di-rections, just cruisin' for meat!"
The religious establishment is one of the most powerful voices in conservative Saudi Arabia, which ascribes to a lunacy puritan form of Islam known as Wahhabism.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt || 09/11/2003 17:43 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  As long as any group of people treat any other group of people as chattel, slavery exists. It was true in the southern United States, it was true in the old Soviet Union, and it's true today in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. Slavery is a failed concept that destroys humanity, and cannot be allowed to continue to exist. We will bide our time, but when the moment arrives, we will free these slaves, as we have fought to free slaves all around the earth.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 18:15 Comments || Top||

#2  "Them hussies'll be zooming off in all di-rections, just cruisin' for meat!"

Fred---the imagery! You've got to stop it! My sides are hurting! ROTFLMAO!
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 18:43 Comments || Top||

#3  Basically admin on this site has it bang on . In all cases of life some retard lamers decide to be extreme . One thing that springs to mind is those grass eating christians from 15 th century . They beleived its God's will to eat lawn grass all day long , they all died of malnutrition .( no suprises there ) . Lesson learnt by educated - dont follow bible/koran to the letter as u might mis interprut what it means . ahhh well /rant off . Have a good day and be tolerant . case solved :P
Posted by: new visitor || 09/11/2003 18:48 Comments || Top||

#4  You know what I would like to see? Whenever we bag a Soddy al-Qaeda member, we should post his picture on the web with a little phrase in Arabic underneath. Something like "Got his ass kicked by an infidel GIRL!!" Not all of them, just a few here and there. That would piss them off something fierce!
I wonder if you still get your 72 virgins if a girl kicks your ass?
Posted by: Baba Yaga || 09/11/2003 18:49 Comments || Top||

#5  Maybe you do, but VERY VERY OLD virgins!
Posted by: True German Ally || 09/11/2003 19:14 Comments || Top||

#6  Nuns, TGA?
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/12/2003 2:08 Comments || Top||

#7  Makes me think of that guy on the Deck of 55 who got his ass stomped and captured by a girl.
Posted by: raptor || 09/12/2003 12:26 Comments || Top||


Britain
"Magnificent 19" Circus Is Over
A plan by an extremist Islamic group to commemorate the September 11 hijackers as "the Magnificent 19" degenerated into a tasteless publicity exercise yesterday. Al-Muhajiroun invited the media to its offices in Tottenham, north London, to announce the agenda and venues for its Islamic conference marking the second anniversary of the attacks in New York and Washington. The group - which represents a handful of Britain’s 1.5 million Muslims - attempted to charge £20 for admission to the news conference but withdrew the demand when journalists refused to pay.
Doesn’t every circus have an admission fee?
Inside the building, a business centre, spokesmen for Al-Muhajiroun took turns to deliver hectoring statements, fatwas and off-the-cuff declarations. Sulayman Keeler, who said he had been a Muslim for seven years after converting from Roman Catholicism, said Muslims who joined the police, Army, House of Lords, CIA or FBI had committed "gross acts of apostasy".
Seven years and this clown is entitled to fatwas?
Sajid Sharif said the September 11 atrocities were "a good deed in the eyes of Islam" and Muslims who served with the British Army in Iraq were "legitimate targets for the mujahideen". Anjem Choudary, al-Muhajiroun’s chief spokesman, said all four venues for the "Magnificent 19" conferences in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester had cancelled the group’s bookings.
Pity. Now this little circus goes without sideshows. "But Mommy, I wanted to see them beat up the clowns!"
Posted by: Tom || 09/11/2003 8:50:52 PM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Any reports of CRAP like this in France? NO!
Posted by: Not Mike Moore || 09/12/2003 0:19 Comments || Top||

#2  No,the Frogs are more sublte,N.They just desecrate the graves of thier allies.
Posted by: raptor || 09/12/2003 12:23 Comments || Top||


Hutton Inquiry Conclusion: Dossier NOT "sexed up"
From SkyNews. The BBC’s choice of headline: Blair ’overrode terror warnings’. To summarise, Blair’s in the clear, the BBC were caught anti-war, anti-Government propagandising, but the Defence Minister’s looking shaky (as usual)...
A committee of MPs has cleared the Government of ’sexing up’ its dossier on Iraq’s weapons, but criticises the Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon for withholding evidence. The Intelligence and Security Committee said it was "disturbing" that Mr Hoon did not disclose full details of concerns about the dossier among defence intelligence staff. Mr Hoon defended himself in the Commons, saying his intention had been to be open with the committee. He regretted any misunderstanding and accepted that the MoD could have been more helpful. Earlier, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said Mr Hoon had the full backing of the Prime Minister and his Cabinet colleagues.

In its report, the ISC concluded unanimously that the dossier had not been "sexed up" by former No 10 communications chief Alastair Campbell "or anybody else". Committee chair Ann Taylor said members had seen all drafts of the weapons dossier and were happy that any changes to them had not been made because of any political pressure. "There was not political interference - the dossier was not sexed up," she said. "In fact, the dossier was based on the Joint Intelligence Committee assessments that we have seen."

But there were difficulties in putting intelligence into the public domain, she said, which would need to be examined if such a dossier was needed again. The context of the information was clear to its authors but not to all of its readers. "It was not always clear to Joe Public, or even to ordinary MPs who were reading the dossier," Mrs Taylor said.

The report criticises the way the controversial claim that some Iraqi weapons of mass destruction could be deployed within 45 minutes was presented, as "unhelpful to an understanding of this issue". It said the dossier also failed to make clear that Saddam Hussein was not considered a "current or imminent threat to mainland UK". And it said that it should have highlighted the uncertainty within the intelligence community over Iraq’s capacity to produce chemical or biological weapons. The ISC said that the initial failure of the Ministry of Defence to reveal details of the intelligence staff concerns had been "unhelpful and potentially misleading".

But committee chair Ann Taylor told journalists: "At no point in our document do we call for the resignation of Geoff Hoon." The criticism of Mr Hoon and the Ministry of Defence centred on the withholding of information about two members of DIS who had written formally to their line managers to express concern about the way their intelligence was used in the dossier.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 6:27:58 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Title's wrong! I'm getting my inquiries mixed up - this is NOT the Hutton Inquiry, it's the ISC committee, of course. Hutton Inq concerns the Death of Dr. Kelly. We've got inquiries coming out of our ears.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 18:36 Comments || Top||

#2  Yes Bulldog . Everyone seems to drift from the point . Would be nice to have a global hug for a change . Perhaps year 3000 ( by our calendar ) . Sorry for spelling - am new to this
Posted by: new visitor || 09/11/2003 19:34 Comments || Top||


Down Under
Harold Charged with Murder
Solomon Islands leader Harold Keke has been charged with the murder of a parliamentarian. The war-lord, who was arrested by Australian-led peacekeepers last month, has already been charged with attempted murder, firearms possession and running an unlawful society.
Not to mention downloading copywrited music files.
Mr Keke now stands accused of killing Father Augustine Geve, a Catholic priest and member of parliament. It is alleged Father Geve was shot dead last year during a peace mission to the rebel leader’s base on Guadalcanal’s remote weather coast. There was tight security outside the courthouse in Honiara. Up to 2,000 people waited outside. A number of stones were thrown and Harold Keke was bombarded with abuse from sections of the crowd. He is accused of playing a major part in the ethnic fighting that destabilised the Solomon Islands for so many years. Two of Mr Keke’s followers have also appeared before magistrates and have been charged with multiple counts of murder and kidnapping.
Hope the Solomon’s still have the death penalty.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 8:51:16 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They was gonna own the joint 'til the terr-torial sheriff showded up. Spurs a'jingl'n, both barrels loaded. Mighty pissed, and took'm alive to boot, who-tee!
Posted by: Lucky || 09/11/2003 12:08 Comments || Top||

#2  "Running an unlawful society"? What the hell does that mean? Is it the Australian equivalent of a conspiracy charge, or is this some sort of collective-guilt bodge?
Posted by: Mitch H. || 09/11/2003 13:06 Comments || Top||


Europe
Spain keeps Arab reporter in jail
A Spanish judge has ordered a correspondent from the Arabic news channel, al-Jazeera, to remain in jail without bail as police investigate his alleged links with al-Qaeda. Under Spanish law, Judge Baltasar Garzon had until Thursday to decide whether there was sufficient evidence to keep Mr Alouni in detention or else release him. During three hours of questioning by the judge on Monday, the reporter denied claims that he had supported al-Qaeda and helped organise a Muslim fundamentalist cell.
"Lies, all lies!"
He has said he delivered money to Syrian exiles in Afghanistan and Turkey as a gesture of solidarity, but denied supporting terrorists.
"So I delivered thousands in unmarked bills a little money to them. They needed to pay their rent and buy ammo food."
Police suspect that Mr Alouni gave support to a suspected militant, Edin Barakat Yarkas, also known as Abu Dahdah. Mr Yarkas was arrested in Spain in November 2001 on suspicion of being the leader of a Muslim fundamentalist cell in the country.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 1:29:38 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Some writers do there best work in solitude. He also can get many exclusives on stories by interviewing his fellow inmates.
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 15:18 Comments || Top||

#2  If he was a mathematician, he could calculate pi out to umteen places on the walls of his prison cell.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 16:27 Comments || Top||


George Bush senior arrives in Saint Petersburg
Former US President George Bush arrived in Saint Petersburg yesterday with his wife Barbara, former US secretary of state Henry Kissinger and former mayor of New York Rudolph Giuliani.
That’s a pretty high level "tour group":.
As a Rosbalt correspondent reports, the visit to Saint Petersburg is a private one and the former US president has not planned any official engagements.
Of course not, nothing to see here, move along.
After visiting Saint Petersburg Mr and Mrs Bush will travel to Sochi to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin and then to Moscow where they will meet former president of the USSR Mikhail Gorbachev.
Yup, no official engagements here.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 10:02:42 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Pooty-Poots turned off the spitgots and did something else.

The KGBrs coming out. #41 better be carrying a very simple message.
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 10:25 Comments || Top||

#2  Hmmm...Bush Sr. also had a message for Prince Bandar recently.
Posted by: seafarious || 09/11/2003 13:36 Comments || Top||

#3  Sochi's in Georgia, no?
Posted by: Patrick || 09/11/2003 13:38 Comments || Top||

#4  Ver-r-r-r-y interesting...

I think Jacques better watch his back.
Posted by: mojo || 09/11/2003 15:58 Comments || Top||

#5  Patrick--It's really close to the border with Georgia, but I think it's still just barely in Russia on the Black Sea.
Posted by: Baba Yaga || 09/11/2003 18:56 Comments || Top||


Russia’s Northern Fleet Commander Sacked
Gennady Suchkov, Commander of the Russian Northern Fleet, has been suspended from office, said Russian Navy Chief Commander Vladimir Kuroyedov. When addressing a news conference in Moscow Thursday, the naval chief commander said that Vice-Admiral Sergei Simonenko had been appointed acting Commander of the Northern Fleet. He was in command of the operation to rescue the K-159 submarine. The Kremlin press office has confirmed that President Vladimir Putin signed a decree suspending Vice-Admiral Suchkov from office on Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov’s initiative. Vice-Admiral Suchkov is expected to hand over his authority to the acting commander in the next few days. He will be suspended before the investigation into the K-159 incident is through, said Admiral Kuroyedov. The K-159 sub sank in the early hours of Saturday, August 30, while being towed for disposal. Only one of the ten men on board survived.
Big guy takes the fall, I’m suprised.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 9:58:25 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Thought they would only hang the tug boat captain out to dry. Guess the relatives of the dead wanted a higher quality scape goat.
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 13:51 Comments || Top||

#2  Pretty standard to suspend him for the duration of the investigation. I'd be surprised if he got dinged, though. My money's on the Captain of the towing vessel.
Posted by: mojo || 09/11/2003 16:00 Comments || Top||

#3  You don't dirty an Admiral that you plan to rehabilitate. He might not do slammer time, but he better have his, "need to spend more time with my family, " speech at the standby.
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 18:15 Comments || Top||


EU Demands Palestinians Stop Terrorists
The European Union demanded Thursday that the Palestinian Authority take ``all necessary concrete measures’’ against those responsible for this week’s suicide attacks against Israelis. The EU demand came as the 15-nation bloc moved to expand sanctions against the Islamic militant group Hamas. ``The European Union wishes to reaffirm its strongest condemnation of these two terrorist attacks as well as the organizations that planned and executed them,’’ the EU presidency said in a statement on behalf of the bloc’s 15 member nations.
That’ll show em.
Have they ever done it before?
EU foreign ministers agreed Saturday to add political offshoots of Hamas to its terrorist blacklist following last month’s deadly bus bombing in Jerusalem. Currently, the EU blacklists only Hamas’ military wing. EU ambassadors agreed Thursday on which groups would be included on that blacklist, official said. The names will not be released until they are published in the EU’s official journal, probably on Saturday. An EU official said on condition of anonymity that the list ``will be in line with the request made by foreign ministers ... on the inclusion of Hamas.’’ He refused to say whether charities or social groups linked to Hamas were included.
We’ll be waiting to see.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 9:33:38 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Are the frogs on board with this?

I thought the frogs view Hamas as a bunch of misguided children that needed love and understanding.
Posted by: SOG475 || 09/11/2003 10:25 Comments || Top||

#2  Compromise - apparently the Brits and Germans wanted to name specific hamas figures and front groups, but the Frogs objected - so what ive seen (AP i think) theyve agreed to only ban Hamas in general.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 11:19 Comments || Top||

#3  The European Union demanded Thursday that the Palestinian Authority take ``all necessary concrete measures’’ against those responsible for this week’s suicide attacks against Israelis.

Not good phrasing. The EU and the Palestinian Authority are not likely to agree on the meaning of "necessary".
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 11:21 Comments || Top||

#4  The EU's wording is interesting. By using the phrase 'organizations that planned and executed them', they seem to be acknowledging that HAMAS might have had help from Fatah (maybe even the PA itself). However, the EU can claim that even if individuals in the PA helped plan, it wasn't the organization itself. Another bit of Clinton like nuance to the rescue.
Posted by: mhw || 09/11/2003 11:55 Comments || Top||

#5  Five days after EU foreign ministers agreed to crack down on Hamas, their ambassadors in Brussels were only able to agree on adding its political wing to the blacklist, diplomats said.
Currently, the list includes only Hamas' military wing, which has claimed responsibility for many attacks, including two more this week that killed another 15 people. After the Jerusalem bombing, the Bush administration Aug. 22 froze the U.S. assets of six senior Hamas leaders and five European-based organizations it says raise money for the radical Palestinian group, and called on others to do the same. Britain, Germany and the Netherlands favored such a move, but France and Belgium were wary of cutting off avenues of negotiation with the Palestinians or hurting Hamas' extensive social services network. The French Foreign Ministry in Paris said the new list includes the political wing but not related charities. The list was expected to get formal approval from ministers on Friday and become official once published in the EU's official journal, probably on Saturday. An EU diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that there was still "no consensus" on the related charities, but the issue remained on the agenda and would not immediately be voted on. Without specific names, European authorities would find it difficult to freeze funds of any groups or individuals.


France and their lapdog Belgium again show their true colors.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 13:07 Comments || Top||

#6  Is there something in the French and Belgian water supply that makes them take such goofy ideas seriously?
Posted by: Baba Yaga || 09/11/2003 19:03 Comments || Top||


Attack on EU train as Estonia poll turns sour
I’m sorry Fred, another EU story. Yours to cut as is somewhat OT. However, it seems the EU project is sparking violence more and more frequently these days... EFL
An attempt to derail a pro-European Union campaign train in the Baltic state of Estonia has soured a referendum campaign. The train carrying 300 passengers, half of them children, was travelling in the west of the country before the vote this weekend on joining the EU. The driver stopped the train after seeing dozens of six-inch bolts, which had been strewn across more than four miles of track. The Estonian government declared the attempt an act of terrorism and sent its secret service to investigate. Officials say dozens of passengers might have been hurt or killed if the train had been derailed. The incident comes after weeks of rising passions as the nation of 1.4 million people prepares for the referendum on joining the EU. Habitually, the Estonians take immense pride in their Nordic calm. In the former Soviet Union they were renowned for their almost dour character. But locals say the referendum has inflamed feelings. Debate is raging over whether, after 40 years of fighting for independence from Moscow, Estonia should hand over large areas of decision-making to Brussels.
You’ve had your fun, Estonia. Time to submit and start paying tribute once again.
Evelyn Sepp, an MP with the Centre Party, which is giving its members a free vote, said Estonian society was becoming polarised. "People are accusing each other of being ’Red spies’ and, in some cases, friends and family members are barely speaking to each other," she said. The mood turned sour after allegations that the Yes vote was drawing on almost limitless EU funds to persuade voters.
EU SOP
Tempers rose when an obscure poet allegedly killed himself, leaving a suicide note blaming the prospect of EU accession. The No camp began to send hecklers to pro-EU rallies. Their activists tricked EU diplomats into endorsing the Yes campaign - an infringement of the rules under which they work. The Yes campaign also became mired in controversy. In an attempt to play on deep-rooted fears of Moscow, one group pasted up posters listing Russian invasions of Estonia throughout the centuries.
EU SOP
Now the rhetoric has risen to a higher pitch. Martin Helme, a Eurosceptic activist who works with the largely British-funded Free Europe think tank, hinted this week that the National Guard might have a duty to intervene to protect the threatened loss of sovereignty in a free-wheeling capitalist economy. "We’ve only had independence for 12 years," he said. "Why should we give it away? How can Brussels be better at making decisions about our own country than we are?"
Britain supporting resistance movements on the continent again?! ;)
Such fighting talk is rare. But even in the sombre halls of the Estonian prime minister’s office debate is passionate. Paavo Palk, of the European Information Secretariat, said: "Research shows that living standards will rise when we join the EU. Our government will still make some decisions.
Some decisions, like what responsibilities they cede to the EU next?
"It will not be just faceless bureaucrats in Brussels. Our people will be there too."
Making a HUGE impact, no doubt.
With polls predicting more than 60 per cent in favour of the Yes camp, there seems little doubt that the pro-Europeans will carry the day. Most Estonians say that they are simply too small to stand alone, squashed between Russia and the EU.
Independence is not an option!
A local journalist summed up the feelings of many Estonians, when she said: "Our independence is important to us. Emotionally we might say ’no’ but rationally we will say ’yes’. "As a friend of mine put it, there is no point in sailing against the wind."
Personally, I’d compare the EU more to a black hole than to a yachting breeze.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 7:26:48 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  easier to convince the EU that this is terrorism...after all, they're not just killing Jooooos, right?
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 8:38 Comments || Top||

#2  Aris is gonna be pissed
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 09/11/2003 8:51 Comments || Top||

#3  And this same EU along with the UN claim that the US is trying to create it's own empire. I guess diplomatic trickery/heavy handedness can be just as effective as military force in Empire building. The difference between the Communist Russian threat of old and the Socialist threat of the EU in the present is a gun pointed at your head vs. a sly smile and hidden dagger.
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 10:13 Comments || Top||

#4  Paul> Actually the difference between the two is the difference between freedom and tyranny. The difference between respect for human rights and totalitarianism, the difference between black and white, the difference between democracy and autarchy.

Not that you would know said difference. After all the main problem Britain has with the Charter of Fundamental Rights is that it asserts way too many rights for the citizens, and gives way too little rights to the government.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 10:42 Comments || Top||

#5  LOL Aris, sure it is, sure it is. I mean, of course an Estonian citizen is going to have more democratic influence when part of the EU (current pop. 378.0 million) than in an independent Estonia (pop. 1.4 million). It just goes without saying. And Estonia will be so influential in the EU, I mean, won't everybody? When I see "EU", I see the word "democracy", too. Really! Why are you all laughing?

"...the main problem Britain has with the Charter of Fundamental Rights is that it asserts way too many rights for the citizens, and gives way too little rights to the government."

Aris, you're so right, again. If it wasn't for this document, we'd be a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by our government. The EU is our moral savour! Really. Without it, in thirty years we Brits'd be a nation of clones micromanipulating human fetuses in labs all day, shipping our petty criminals off to be gassed in the evil Texan death chambers.

Do you really believe half the stuff you come out with?

"...the difference between black and white..."

It's not, Aris. It seldom is. Time to peep around your EU polarisers.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 11:09 Comments || Top||

#6  the eu may be too big too be an effective democracy, and it may be wise to stay out of it, but Aris is right that it aint the USSR. I mean really.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 11:21 Comments || Top||

#7  Actually, given that the proportionality of the parliamentary votes goes in favour of the smaller member-states, the Estonians have more "democratic influence" per citizen inside the EU than outside it.

"If it wasn't for this document, we'd be a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by our government. "

Given that your constant claims are that *with* this document, the rest of us will become a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by Brussels, I thought to return the favour.

But the fact remains that the UK government objects to rights contained in the Charter, ones such as the right to strike.

"And Estonia will be so influential in the EU, I mean, won't everybody? "

Far more influential, Bulldog, than many a British district is to the UK, I wager.

But, ooh, I forgot for you it's "Nation uber alles", national independence and freedom is the same to you. I guess all those Welsh and Scots are even English are enslaved, not being independent and all.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 12:12 Comments || Top||

#8  Liberalhawk >>> I didn't mean that the EU is a USSR. What I'm saying is that ths is the EU's Socialist version of Empire building. You're dead on with the too big for democracy. The point is that Europe wants to have enough economic weight to counter the US.
The question then is, someone has to lead and others have to follow. Is all of Europe willing to be led by the French and/or Germans. All of these countries have enough problems governing their own countries let alone others. Do you really believe that French and Germans would make changes that would hurt them if it helped the rest of the EU. I think not. Hell, France is having a hissy fit because they couldn't get a better deal out of the Libyans than we did. Now, come on. You would want "that" for leadership?

Aris >> That you for telling me that there is a difference between black and white. (You're a lifesaver!) I didn't know that. Isn't it sorta like the difference bewteen your head and your ass

...oh, my bad, with you, there isn't one.

Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 12:12 Comments || Top||

#9  The may even get a stage in the 2008 Tour de France.
Posted by: Lucky || 09/11/2003 12:19 Comments || Top||

#10  "I didn't mean that the EU is a USSR"

Oh, yes, you did. Want me to quote you?

"You're dead on with the too big for democracy"

What's the exact figure for "too big for democracy"? Give me as an exact figure as you can, please. Some people could have said that the United States are too big for democracy also.

"The point is that Europe wants to have enough economic weight to counter the US"

Ah, I thought the point was a little thing called "freedom", instead. But perhaps that's a triviality for you.

"Do you really believe that French and Germans would make changes that would hurt them if it helped the rest of the EU."

All the more reason to reduce the power of the national veto in favour of democratic structures, right? Oops, sorry, UK objects to that, no can do.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 12:21 Comments || Top||

#11  "Actually, given that the proportionality of the parliamentary votes goes in favour of the smaller member-states, the Estonians have more "democratic influence" per citizen inside the EU than outside it."

They're going to enjoy approximately 300 x more 'democratic influence' because of proportionality bias? That's what they'd need... Besides, what you're lauding here is a fundamentally undemocratic activity. i'd have thought a Greek would blush at suggesting one person's vote is worth more than another's. Don't try to associate the EU with democracy, it's embarrassing.

"Given that your constant claims are that *with* this document, the rest of us will become a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by Brussels,"

I've never said any such thing, Aris. Your memory fails you. I would deride the Charter for being vacuous crap-by-committee, not even capable of corrupting. It's you who seems to put value on it.

"But the fact remains that the UK government objects to rights contained in the Charter, ones such as the right to strike."

We had a firemen's strike last year. They wanted a 40 % pay rise and various other perks. They already get more than most comparable nations' do, and take on far less responsibility, and are an essential service. I'm sorry, but if you're not happy doing that job, then quit. Do NOT refuse to perform your duty. That was legal. Some professions should not reserve the right to go on strike, and its socialistic nonsense to try to argue that they do.

""Estonia will be"... far more influential, Bulldog, than many a British district is to the UK, I wager."

Whilst Britain's in the EU, probably, yes. But neither alone will have any clout whatsoever. Whereas as constituent parts of, or as, smaller independent entities, they will both have far more control over their destinies and governance. Fact.

Again, you're showing a perverse sense of satisfaction that an English Yorkshireman, for instance, will have less proportional representation than an Estonian. The thin veneer's begining to flake off your picture of utopia, Aris. We're begining to see beneath, and there's actually little respect for "democracy," or good D'Estaing "homogeneity" under there.

"I forgot for you it's "Nation uber alles", national independence and freedom is the same to you. I guess all those Welsh and Scots are even English are enslaved, not being independent and all."

Why the German, Aris? Goddamit, you Greeks and your national stereotypes. We've been through British nationalities before. Devolution - ever heard of it? Scotland will become more influential in the EU Ocean than it is in the UK Sea? Give me a break, you lEUnatic!
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 12:50 Comments || Top||

#12  >>"I didn't mean that the EU is a USSR"
>Oh, yes, you did. Want me to quote you?


This promises to be interesting.

>>"The point is that Europe wants to have enough economic weight to counter the US"
>Ah, I thought the point was a little thing called "freedom", instead. But perhaps that's a triviality for you.


What kind of "freedom" do the current member states expect to have that they don't already have now?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 13:00 Comments || Top||

#13  Aris >> Damn you, I caught your post just before I logged off. (SMILE)

You're right and I've "seen the light." I hope that the EU takes over all of Europe. (except for the UK) Nothing could bring me more pleasure than watching an already overbloated, incompetant, ultra passive, and appeasing bueracracy get bigger. As for the exact figure for "too big". It's not about the people, but the cultures. How many cultural views do you think the EU can hold together? What the French want and what the Poles want are probably two different things. If you're right and the little guys get equal voting that's even better. Then I can watch France throw more hissy fits at the EU when it isn't capable of strong arming the rest.
Doesn't it bother you that when Chirac told the old eastern bloc countries that they've missed a good opportunity to STFU? You realize that invitation extended to your country and every other small non-French appeasing country as well? Yeah, the US and UK don't always have the best ideas and policies, but do you really want to invest heavily in this chaos? The EU has no spine to stand up to any real threats. Do you really think that the Balklan War wouldn't still be on if the EU was running the show. Come on. But, no hard feelings, I wish you the best of luck in the EU's future escapades.
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 13:03 Comments || Top||

#14  Aris >"the Estonians have more "democratic influence" per citizen inside the EU than outside it"


Aris

One of my deep frustration was not having access to North Korean press talking about the invicible NorK people and its enlightened leader.

But you are the European version of a North Korea newspaper.
Posted by: JFM || 09/11/2003 13:09 Comments || Top||

#15  Research shows that living standards will rise when we join the EU.

Living standards will rise regardless of whether Estonia joins the EU, if Estonia has anything like a competent government. East Asian countries developed rapidly without having to put up with the rigid constraints of the EEC.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/11/2003 13:47 Comments || Top||

#16  "That's what they'd need... "

What they'd need for what? Previously they had no power to influence EU happenings, now they do.

You may prefer a world where there's no government structure higher than a mayor, and elections are limited to city level, but not everyone agrees with that logic.

"Besides, what you're lauding here is a fundamentally undemocratic activity."

A bit less undemocratic than the United States elections, though, since the US have *both* biased proportionality and a winner-takes-all policy. EU has only the former.

"Again, you're showing a perverse sense of satisfaction that an English Yorkshireman, for instance, will have less proportional representation than an Estonian."

You are mistaking me. I'm talking about the representation that an English Yorkshireman has in the UK parliament, not the European one. Why don't you demand that Yorkshire becomes independent instead of being shallowed by the British superstate?

I guess that the simplest answer would be that the Yorkshire folk don't ask to be independent of the UK. Neither are Estonians asking for independence from the EU.

"What kind of "freedom" do the current member states expect to have that they don't already have now?"

How about freedom of movement and employment throughout the Union?

But I'm mainly talking about the freedom to join the EU, a freedom certain folk here ain't respecting as equal to the freedom to be independent.

"How many cultural views do you think the EU can hold together?"

The question isn't "how many", the question is "how different". I perceive most European cultures to be close enough to each other as to make this quite workable.

UK is a bit further away from the rest, and so I urge her to leave. :-)

Chirac was an idiot. He also has nothing more to do with the EU than Blair does. You can't hate the EU for Chirac's doings during the War on Iraq without loving it for UK's doings. Makes no sense.

"Yeah, the US and UK don't always have the best ideas and policies, but do you really want to invest heavily in this chaos? "

About as much as the Founding Fathers wanted to invest in the United States. Except that the divisions in the United States were far, far, *far* deeper than any European division currently is. US Civil War anyone?

Paul, would you want to invest heavily in the US of the late 18th century? Since Europe has no issue such as slavery to drive a lasting wedge between the states, I'd say that EU prospect as ten times as good as US chances were.

"The EU has no spine to stand up to any real threats."

Correction: The EU has no army to stand up to any real threat, nor any authority from the treaties to use such an army if it did have it. We plan to change that.

UK disagrees of course, and puts a "red line" that must not be crossed on the idea of EU states (even a voluntary joining of EU states) defending each other in the case of armed aggression being mentioned in the constitution.

One of the reasons I hate the UK.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 14:21 Comments || Top||

#17  "Correction: The EU has no army to stand up to any real threat, nor any authority from the treaties to use such an army if it did have it. We plan to change that."

Yes of course, we all saw just how EASY it was to get the French and Germans on board with the use of military force. I'm sure that EU army would spend countless hours and resources preparing for work.....that the EU leadership will never have either the courage or consensu to deploy. Yessiree, that EU's going to be one huge success!
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 09/11/2003 15:09 Comments || Top||

#18  "Chirac was an idiot. He also has nothing more to do with the EU than Blair does."

ROFL...we'll see.

"You can't hate the EU for Chirac's doings during the War on Iraq without loving it for UK's doings. Makes no sense."

I hate the EU because they're all spineless lefty loonies who are capable of talking and not much else.

Ref: Your civil war remark.

How many "wars" (for succession or conquests)have been waged in Europe? Far more than one.

"Since Europe has no issue such as slavery to drive a lasting wedge between the states, I'd say that EU prospect as ten times as good as US chances were.

Aris, I live near a German town that's more than 250 years older than the US itself. If Europe hasn't gotten it right after all of these centuries, what really makes you think this time it'll work? That's a pipe dream, nothing less nothing more.

Correction: The EU has no army to stand up to any real threat, nor any authority from the treaties to use such an army if it did have it. We plan to change that.

Exactly: "The EU has no spine to stand up to any real threats." (They all have armies.) The EU could cobble together their "paper tiger" army and it would still be spineless. The Brits are the only hope for teeth in that tiger.


"UK disagrees of course, and puts a "red line" that must not be crossed on the idea of EU states (even a voluntary joining of EU states) defending each other in the case of armed aggression being mentioned in the constitution.

No shit, that's why you have NATO and that's backed by another country with guts. (US)

"One of the reasons I hate the UK.

I'll try not to lose sleep.
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 15:15 Comments || Top||

#19  >>"What kind of "freedom" do the current member states expect to have that they don't already have now?"
>How about freedom of movement and employment throughout the Union?

>But I'm mainly talking about the freedom to join the EU, a freedom certain folk here ain't respecting as equal to the freedom to be independent.


That doesn't clarify the implication that there would be more "freedom" for member states inside the EU than outside. Movement and seeking employment are minor matters; things like this already happen on a smaller scale, and is probably not going to jump considerably with entry into the EU unless the applicant nation is a destitute country (fat chance of being voted in then, no?) Furthermore, this "freedom" to join the EU is only one of applying to join, which gives no certainty of admission, as Article 57 clearly indicates there to be a procedure for application and the necessity to obtain "consent".
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 16:16 Comments || Top||

#20  We in Estonia are under no illusion about the socialist nature of the EU, but the prospect of remaining in the 'grey zone' isn't very appealing for a country, that has been constantly overrun by it's imperial neighbours for the last 800 years.
We would love to have oceans separating us from Russia and the weasels, but it's not going to happen any time soon.
Posted by: Mati Karu || 09/11/2003 16:41 Comments || Top||

#21  Hi Mati Karu, glad to have you pop by!

I assume then, you'll be voting Yes? Are your sentiments shared by your Baltic neighbours LAtvia and Lithuania? Did you discuss anything like a Baltic league as an alternative to EU membership? Or negotiating with the EU without joining? What do you think about adopting the euro, or the constitution?

What do you think of the Telegraph coverage? Is it accurate?

Sorry for all the questions - we don't get many Estonians round these parts...
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 17:52 Comments || Top||

#22  I never would have thought that Estonia's decision would have brought this must attention. Does J Lo live there?
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 18:18 Comments || Top||

#23  Wow,Rantburg reaches Estonia,that saying something,Fred!
Welcome aboard,Mati.
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 18:24 Comments || Top||

#24  My wife works for a major hotel chain here in Colorado Springs. One of the new people recently hired by the hotel is a Lithuanian. He and his brother left Lithuania in the late 1990's to come to the US. They both live and work here, and hope to get enough money together to bring their mother and grandmother from Lithuania before the EU takes control. In other words, they "voted with their feet". I wonder how many other Europeans have done likewise in the last five or six years.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 18:24 Comments || Top||

#25  "I hate the EU because they're all spineless lefty loonies who are capable of talking and not much else. "

Does that include your allies, UK, Spain, Italy, etc?

"Furthermore, this "freedom" to join the EU is only one of applying to join"

Well, yes. I mean that people here don't seem to have much respect for that free choice of the various Eastern European people.

"How many "wars" (for succession or conquests)have been waged in Europe? Far more than one. "

And far more than one war have been waged in the Americas. The Civil War I mentioned is the one war that occured *internal* to the US. Not internal to the *continent*, internal to the US.

My point is that there hasn't been any war internal to the EU, since its inception nor is there likely to be in the predictable future, as there's currently no issue dividing the continent as critical as slavery was to the USA since its beginnings.

Again, would you really want to invest heavily in the US of the 18th century?

EU has atleast as good a chance as the US had back then, for the reasons I mentioned.

Old Patriot> Amusing anecdote.

Can we also count the people (e.g. hundreds of thousands of Albanians going to Greece or Italy) who ran *into* EU soil?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 19:27 Comments || Top||

#26  Siccing J Lo on the Balts is far too cruel, SH.

So, basically, according to Aris the British choice is centuries of English common law vs. easier vacations to Spain and not as much hassle if you want to work in, say, the Netherlands. Pardon me while I ponder the benefits of this. If any.

There's a hell of a lot of difference between a developing country in the late 18th century with a divisive social issue, and a conglomeration of modern countries that have been having wars almost continuously for centuries, Aris. For starters, even if a person moved from New York (a free state) to Virginia (a slave state), there would have been a commonality of culture back then that there still isn't if you move from Norway to Greece this week (completely different religions, foods, languages, histories, etc.)

I don't know that I would have invested heavily in my own country back then. So what? I wouldn't have invested heavily in post-WW2 Germany, post-WW2 Japan or Hong Kong or Taiwan after the Communists took over China. It just goes to show that sometimes enterprising people can do a hell of a lot with virtually nothing, while others who are blessed with a lot of resources still slip farther and farther behind (ie. the Arabs and all that oil money).

P.S. Welcome to Rantburg, Mati! I remember the brief day tour I took of Tallinn a long time ago. It was quite a lovely city.

Posted by: Baba Yaga || 09/11/2003 19:42 Comments || Top||

#27  "Mati, allow me to introduce you to Aris, our Evil Greek."

"Aris, give Mati a smile. Ew, not with the teeth. Put them away. And DON'T try to touch him."
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 19:58 Comments || Top||

#28  Well, yes. I mean that people here don't seem to have much respect for that free choice of the various Eastern European people.

As much as the Eastern Europeans have free choice with regard to applying for EU membership, the people here are equally free to criticize what they perceive to be unwise surrendering of national sovereignty just to secure membership in a union that may not be in the candidate nation's best interests.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 23:58 Comments || Top||

#29  "There's a hell of a lot of difference between a developing country in the late 18th century with a divisive social issue, and a conglomeration of modern countries that have been having wars almost continuously for centuries, Aris."

Yes. There is difference. But I have no reason to believe that the latter of the two is any harder a situation than the former.

"For starters, even if a person moved from New York (a free state) to Virginia (a slave state), there would have been a commonality of culture back then that there still isn't if you move from Norway to Greece this week (completely different religions, foods, languages, histories, etc.)"

Absolute nonsense. Tourist food aside what the hell do you think we Greeks eat? We do have our share of vegetarians also, you know. Different religions? Most Greeks visit church once or twice a year, on Easter and Christmas, so they fit right in with the rest of secular Europe.

Culture? Well, I bet I'm seeing the same movies as the average Norwegian, reading the same books as the average Norwegian, and listening to the same music as the average Norwegian.

"So, basically, according to Aris the British choice is centuries of English common law vs. easier vacations to Spain and not as much hassle if you want to work in, say, the Netherlands."

Not sure if the "centuries of English common law" you mention is supposed to be a good thing or not. Brits seem to have a thing about always obsessing with the past, whether it's centuries of this (common law) or centuries of that (constant war).

But no, that's not what I'm saying. Someone asked me how freedom is enlarged for the individuals Estonians by their admission into the union, I gave him two brief examples. If you want a whole treatise on political, economical, judicial, diplomatic and other benefits, that's too complicated for a single post.

"Pardon me while I ponder the benefits of this. If any."

Well, Blair & co must have *some* benefits in mind, or they wouldn't stay in the EU, would they now?

Would they now?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 23:59 Comments || Top||

#30  They're quite free to criticize the free choice of the Estonians, as long as they accept the fact that it's indeed a free choice of the Estonians and not the bizarre mindwashing that we evil overlords of the EU commited upon an unsuspecting nation using our awesome secret mind powers.

Check back the thread above. Check the sayings about how the diplomatic tactics EU uses to create an "empire" are no different in essense to the military troops that the Soviet Union used.

Those are not the sayings of people who recognize the free choice of the Estonians or any other Eastern European nation for what it is. They have absolute contempt for the Eastern Europeans' decision and keep on blaming the EU for somehow coercing Eastern Europe into joining.

Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/12/2003 0:05 Comments || Top||

#31  blaming the EU for somehow coercing Eastern Europe into joining.

Your naivete betrays you.
Posted by: Rafael || 09/12/2003 0:34 Comments || Top||

#32  Aris, you simply have to be kidding, right?
Ok, let's start with Joe moving from New York to Virginia, 18th century. Joe doesn't have to learn a new language. Sure, the accent is different, but it's the same one from back home, same alphabet. The basic foods are the same, the local government is set up pretty much the same, and the money is the same (yeah, I know, the Euro is in effect right now, but that's pretty recent). The same books are for sale, in the same language. They don't have to be translated into a different one for each state.
Now, Mr Aris moves from Greece to Norway this week. Fortunately, he doesn't have to remember how many drachmas equal how many kroner thanks to the Euro. But there's a different language in a different alphabet. Let's say, just for argument, Mr. Aris is a devout believer in the Orthodox faith. Try and find an Orthodox church in Norway. If there is a local church, it's going to be Lutheran. Ever go to a Lutheran mass? It's a hell of a lot different from what you grew up with (trust me, been to both kinds of services, and they are just about opposite ends of the spectrum of Christianity). Mr Aris decides that he wants to go to the store and get some food because he's hungry. There's a sale on lutefisk, but he passes since it's an, um, acquired taste. (In other words, if you didn't grow up with it, trust me, you ain't gonna like it!) He decides that he wants to get a frozen pizza, because he can't find feta and pita bread (he's homesick and misses his mother's cooking. Hell, I would and that's nothing against the Norwegians, so relax). Chances are, it's not going to be the same brand he grew up with, and just for the hell of it, let's say the cooking directions are only in Norwegian (which probably violates some EU law, but again, this is just for the sake of this discussion). What are the chances that Mr Aris is going to end up with a charred lump of coal instead of a hot, cheesy pizza? Pretty damn good, IMHO.
If there are some commonalities between Aris' new home in the fjords and his old one in Greece, it would be what is termed "popular" culture. That means the same ol' crap that Europeans generally love to hate (McDonald's, the latest Hollywood blockbuster, possibly a new British music group or some Japanese anime). Guess what, Aris? You could get that same crap in Argentina or Singapore, too. That doesn't make Argentina or Singapore part of Europe.
I know that the whole debate is too complicated for a single post. I just don't understand why, if this is such a good deal for Britain, Blair won't put it to a vote. Whether they give up everything to join or not doesn't affect me much. It's just that when I look at what they are giving up, I'm not sure that they are getting anything better.
Posted by: Baba Yaga || 09/12/2003 0:48 Comments || Top||

#33  Boy, I wish I was around here earlier. I don't know if anyone will read this. Any other American enjoying the exchange about rights between our European friends??

Aris, Bulldog, read the Declaration of Independence, then read the pertinent parts of the Constitution.

This is what I took from the exchange. You're all looking at the details instead of the bigger picture.

200 years and you still don't get US. You see, we have inalienable rights endowed by our Creator as individuals. We were designed for the least amount of interference from our bureaucracy, although they're starting to interfere more than they should. We can elect and unelect this bureaucracy every 2-4-6 years, unless they're really bad boys and girls.

What you are going thru is just more monarchy, instead of 1 unelected king you have a $hitload of them and their hangers' on who will live like your monarchs of old. They have given you a document w/1700(!) amendments. An amendment about unions has no place in a document about individual rights. Those are to be negotiated w/said employer. We started out w/10 rights, now have 27 (?) and 2 were for prohibition.

Those "rights" you desire are being given to you by your unelected masters and can be taken away, just like the monarchies of old did. Because they're not going to work, it's not going to work. The document is too unwieldly, constricting.

You see, the great socialist experiment in the US, the PROC (Peoples' Republic of California) is coming to a head. If Bustamante gets in w/his fingers controlling the baking process of every pie, it'll be the final nail in the coffin.

It doesn't work.
But the EU is not about individual rights, is it? It is about the collective right. And that is why it will fail.

But please don't make us go over there again. We're too busy.

So, Aris, where do you want to move to?





Posted by: Anonymous || 09/12/2003 3:01 Comments || Top||

#34  Anonymous(!), I agree entirely. If you read what I said above, the Charter and the Constitution are about as aspirational as toilet paper. As far as I'm concenrned, they're insulting, and I expect they would be to anyone else who doesn't enjoy being patronized by a bunch of bureaucrats. In the UK, we don't even have a written constitution, and this commitee effort knocked together in Brussels has infinitely less substance than what we already have as a nation.

It's convictions such as these: that besuited fat cat bureaucrats can define my individual 'rights,' that I am expected to become a dual citizen of a state I do not recognise or have any faith in, that somehow I am expected to accept that my nation is to be herded willingly ovine into a pen of docility, conformity, collectivity and dependence, those together with the simple conviction that the whole imperial project is inevitably doomed to fail, which make me so utterly opposed to the EU as it is and as it intends to evolve.

I admit, I often allow myself to get bogged down in detail, but when discussing the EU it can be hard to see the stinking wood for the massed ranks of rotten trees.

Aris: the only reason to remain in the EU is for maintaining trade with our main markets. There is no other reason except misplaced ideological fantasy. I'm afraid Blair's been bitten by the latter. As Mati's comment above indicated, even those in East Europe are not passionate about the EU, as you dsperately want to believe. The simply do not feel they have much of an option. You're in the minority.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/12/2003 5:37 Comments || Top||

#35  Baba Yaga> "Ok, let's start with Joe moving from New York to Virginia, 18th century."

Let's start with Joe being black. One place treats him as an animal, the other as sorta-a-person. :-)

Better yet let's start from citizens of the Swiss cantons moving from place to place. German, French, Italian, oh my.

"because he can't find feta and pita bread"

Baba Yaga, I remember going to Vienna, and two blocks from the hotel was a Greek restaurant. I have no doubt it feta won't be very difficult to discover in Norway either.

Only thing I'm in doubt is their fries. The fries of most foreign countries can't compare with the Greek french fries. :-)

Anyway, I have a brother in Britain and cousins in Belgium. When I went to Portugal it reminded me of Greece. Cultures aren't so different anymore.

Anonymous> "You see, we have inalienable rights endowed by our Creator as individuals."

While we have inalienable rights but we don't need any fairy tale Creator to endow them to us.

"An amendment about unions has no place in a document about individual rights." They are not amendments. As for you, you had to make them "amendments" because you couldn't even pass them in your constitution proper, since not everyone agreed with them. No blame attaches, but don't speak of our declaration of rights as "amendments".

"We started out w/10 rights, now have 27 (?) and 2 were for prohibition. "

You don't even know that the name "Bill of Rights" refers to only the first 10 amendments, not all of your amendments as a whole?

Your religion and prophecies of doom are about as uninteresting to me as Al Qaeda's prophecies of doom about the US. Both seem to be based on faith rather than religion.

Bulldog> "Aris: the only reason to remain in the EU is for maintaining trade with our main markets."

And what's the reason for Scotland to remain in the UK again?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/12/2003 21:26 Comments || Top||

#36  Aris, why don't you ask a Scot? They seem to like it.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/13/2003 18:29 Comments || Top||


Swedish minister dies after stabbing
Something rotten in the state of Sweden? EFL
Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh has died in hospital from stab wounds inflicted while she was shopping in a department store in the centre of Stockholm. Mrs Lindh, who suffered wounds to the chest, stomach and arms in the attack, spent most of the night in surgery as doctors tried unsuccessfully to save her life. Mrs Lindh, a prominent figure in the pro-European currency campaign in Sweden and one of the country’s most popular politicians, was attacked by an unknown assailant. Sweden’s Prime Minister Goran Persson described the stabbing as an "attack on our open society" that caused him "great anger and dismay". It came only days before Swedes are due to vote in a referendum on whether to join the euro. Mrs Lindh had been vigorously campaigning for a Yes vote. In the wake of the incident, both the Yes and No campaigns suspended their activities.

Mrs Lindh had been shopping unaccompanied by bodyguards when the attack took place at about 1600 local time on Wednesday. "She lay on the floor and it looked as if a tall man, wearing a peaked cap, was hitting her," eyewitness Hanna Sundberg said. "But when he ran away, he threw away a knife." Police were said to be searching for a man wearing a camouflage jacket who fled from the store. "There is nothing pointing at a political motive right now," said police spokesman Bjoern Pihlblad.
That’s not the impression you get watching the BBC TV News, at least. To them it’s a without doubt a political assassination aimed at scuppering the Yes campaign, which could still have claimed victory in the nation’s upcoming referendum on adoption of the euro on Sunday. However, the No campaign is currently comfortably in the lead according to opinion polls, and has no apparent need for last-ditch stunts such as murdering opponents. Was this the work of a fanatic, deranged, Swedish nationalist, Europhobe, or an obssessive lunatic? Or actually an attempt to postpone the referendum or to gain sympathy for the Yes campaign, instigated by a fanatic, deranged, Swedish Europhile, or other group? My money’s on independent wacko, but whatever the motivation behind this, it’s bound to have big political effects, and may possibly influence the outcome of the referendum.

NB This is only the second time a national referendum has been held over joining the euro. The changing of the nations’ currency wasn’t put to a public vote in any state which has adopted it. Denmark voted on adoption, and rejected it, in 2000. Sweden looks set to, too. The Government in Britain has promised to allow the public a referendum on the euro (but not, strangely, the Constitution), though has yet to set a date (it’s forever being postponed).
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 6:32:28 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Personally,unless it's a lone nut,I suspect the Swedish Neo-Nazis.The Nazi movement in Sweden is large,organized and violent.They've killed immigrants,two policemen and a trade union activist in the past.The Euro campaign could be seen by them as a ZOG plot to undermine the Swedish sovereignty and surrender to "the Jewish Capital".(No kidding)

Whoever did this,I hope the Swedish police do a better job in investigating than they did with the Palme murder.RIP.
Posted by: El Id || 09/11/2003 7:38 Comments || Top||

#2  "But when he ran away, he threw away a knife."

If the guy was like most criminals, he probably didn't go to any length to keep his fingerprints off the murder weapon. If so, he'll be found eventually.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 11:48 Comments || Top||

#3  B-a-r: I doubt it. This was planned. At the least, I expect the assailant wore gloves and used an untouched, new knife, or one that had been thoroughly cleaned beforehand and carried in plastic wrap to prevent fingerprints and fibers from collecting on the weapon before he used it.

It doesn't sound like a random attack or a crime of opportunity.
Posted by: Dar || 09/11/2003 13:19 Comments || Top||

#4  TO: All assigned agents

RE: Death of Agent X1 (Anna Lindh)

NOTE: I am aware that many of you are asking what happened in this case. There has been rumor that Agent X1 was removed by the other side. Actually, this incident was intended as an object lesson to all of you. Agent X1 failed to complete her assigned task, so the I and the other Overlords had her "punished". If Estonia does not submit to assimilation as scheduled, there are many who will also be "punished". Success will bring rewards, failure will be also be strictly and swiftly "rewarded". Never forget: the ultimate pleasure is the cessation of pain.

signed...Bloemfeld, EU Secret Overlord

Hey Aris, what will happen if you are unable to complete your assigned task to convert Rantburg to socialism? Your masters are watching...
Posted by: Watcher || 09/11/2003 13:54 Comments || Top||

#5  This news report has more info.Some neo-Nazis are already gloating over her death:

"Under the headline "Traitor of the People is Stabbed", the site of the neo-Nazi group Info 14 denounced the government's massive deployment of resources "to hunt down the perpetrator of the stabbing, which is surprising because this is really nothing other than a regular stabbing against just another Swedish citizen".

Doesn't mean they were behind it,of course.But being anti-Israel is not enough to make these guys like you,apparently.
Posted by: El Id || 09/11/2003 14:01 Comments || Top||

#6  Guns don't kill, knives do!
Posted by: Greg || 09/11/2003 14:56 Comments || Top||

#7  Watcher> How funny. Not really. A innocent person is dead and you're posthumously insulting her.

Rest in peace.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 18:49 Comments || Top||


Fifth Column
WTO Protester Snuffs It for Very Little BBC Coverage
Ministers at the trade summit in Cancun have begun tough negotiations on agricultural subsidies, the very issue that has caused mass protests and a suicide. Lee Kyang-hae, the former head of South Korea’s federation of farmers, stabbed himself to death during the protests, with a friend reported to have said his suicide was "an act of sacrifice" to show his disgust at the policies of the World Trade Organisation (WTO).
Entire BBC coverage was two sentences without any substance about the issue he was sacrificing for. This just shows that you need to hire a good publicist if you intend to "off" yourself in public to highlight injustice. You don’t get a second chance with this type of gesture. You need to get in right the first time.
Groups of farmers from around the world have been amongst the most prominent of those staging protests outside the summit.
See the BBC is already on to the next topic. They didn’t even ask for the friend’s own plans for the near future.
Government ministers are due to haggle over the highly controversial issue of agricultural policy as serious business gets underway on Thursday.
Check for his good friend’s fingerprints on the knife.
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 10:06:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Can we expect more to commmit suicide in protest? Should we encourage it? HMMMM!
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 09/11/2003 11:30 Comments || Top||

#2  We Support Our Protestors When They Kill Themselves.

More of this please and I'll listen to you morons guys. Really...
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 09/11/2003 11:53 Comments || Top||

#3  I always suspected these people did not value life at all.
Posted by: Rafael || 09/11/2003 12:19 Comments || Top||

#4  Is this CancunMexico?
If so that explains a lot.
Cancun,Mexico is a tourist(party town)especially with college kids on spring break.Gets them away from stifling U.S.underage drinking laws.
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 12:35 Comments || Top||

#5  Pehaps this beauzeau agreed to meet some drug-dealers halfway.
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 13:12 Comments || Top||

#6  Saw this on Fox yesterday, he had a small (8-10") stake that he rammed into his chest - but you couldn't really tell what the hell he had at first, and no mention of the death....

to quote Otter from Animal House:
"This case, I think we have to go all out! I think this
situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture,
be done on somebody's part! And we're just the guys to do it!"
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 17:55 Comments || Top||

#7  Little notice from BBC becauase the BBC wants to portray the protesters as common people,just like us.A protester killing himself with a stake is too reminescent of Palestinian suicide bombers and not something normal people do.If it don't fit,don't cover it.
AS for why he staked himself,anyone consider the possibility while prepping for the trip,he saw that bad Bon Jovi Mexican vampire movie once too often?
Posted by: Stephen || 09/11/2003 18:45 Comments || Top||


India-Pakistan
Pakistan religious leader’s brother in murder probe
A senior Pakistani police official in the southwestern city of Quetta said Hafiz Hameedullah would be questioned over alleged links with the Afghan Taliban movement. He said Hameedullah was detained on Wednesday in connection with the killing of a nephew of Afghanistan’s Urban Development Minister Gul Agha Sherzai near the Pakistani border town of Chaman in April. Sherzai was governor of Afghanistan’s troubled southern Kandahar province at the time of the killing. Hameedullah is the younger brother of Hafiz Hamdullah, minister of health in Pakistan’s Baluchistan province and a prominent member of the six-party Islamic religious alliance Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA).
The little brother of a Pak government Islamic biggy wacked the nephew of a Afghan government biggy. Got it? Ok, continue.
Hamdullah denied his brother had any links to the Taliban or was involved in the killing.
All together now; "Lies, all lies!" Thank you.
’’My brother is innocent and all accusations against him regarding murder and his links with the Taliban are wrong and baseless,’’ Hamdullah told Reuters. ’’It is a conspiracy against the MMA.’’
psst, Bin Laden did it as part of his plan to destabilize Musharraf’s government, pass it along.
The MMA is bitterly opposed to Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf for being a key ally of the United States in its war against terror. It rules Baluchistan and the North West Frontier Province, both bordering Afghanistan. Hameedullah was arrested in Chaman and is now in custody in Quetta, capital of Baluchistan. He has not been charged.
Big brother will spring him from the slammer.
Police sources in Chaman said his name came up during interrogation of a group of 26 Taliban, arrested on August 30 at an Islamic seminary.
Interesting, almost like the cops were working for the government instead of the MMA. How’d that happen?
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 2:05:28 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Interesting, almost like the cops were working for the government instead of the MMA. How’d that happen?"
I expect they'll be punished severely and transferred to NWFP to learn proper respect for their betters, Steve...
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 20:49 Comments || Top||


Iraq
Some numbers on foreign fighters in Iraq captured
In other developments in Iraq, senior defense officials told Fox News that they are questioning about 80 foreign fighters who have been captured in the northeast region of Iraq, between the city of Mosul and the Syrian border. Officials said the foreign fighters come from countries such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan and Syria. They were found with nearly 1 million Iraqi Dinars, and some $75,000 in U.S. currency. Initial reports indicate they were relatively lightly armed -- mostly with machine guns, shot guns and sniper rifles.

In a Thursday raid in Tikrit, troops from the 4th Infantry’s 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, shut down two bomb-making factories and detained five Iraqis. The raid was one of seven in northeastern Iraq in which U.S. troops detained 48 people and confiscated more than 30 AK-47 rifles, dynamite and plastic explosives, nine mortar rounds and other weapons and ammunition.
I wish the pentagon provided this type of info daily in a compressed details only report... unless of course, they’re not providing it for a tactical or strategic reason...
Posted by: Damn_Proud_American || 09/11/2003 1:31:33 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I'm guessing the strategic reason. If they don't hear about the men getting captured on the nes, it's a safe assumption that the terrorists will not send more troops for awhile.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 14:29 Comments || Top||

#2  Nope, if they don't hear about our killing or capturing their snuffies, they think that they are winning.

And they'll keep sending them into the kill zone.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 14:39 Comments || Top||

#3  I hope our forces are putting that empty Baghdad Prison to use!

I bet they could get some deals on used truncheons.
Posted by: Daniel King || 09/11/2003 18:12 Comments || Top||


Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld Interview.
Jim Lehrer interview with Donald Rumsfeld, a few key quotes. Click on the title to read the whole piece:
JIM LEHRER: First, today’s news about this Osama bin Laden tape. What do you make of that and the threat he made for more attacks even worse than the ones we had two years ago?
DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, the al-Qaida has been put under enormous pressure. A good many of them have been captured or killed. Their ability to function has been significantly affected. They’re still dangerous. No question about that. They can still conduct attacks, but what we’ve seen since we moved them out of Afghanistan and took away the Taliban from Afghanistan, running that country, the pattern has been that every period of months they’ll come out with an audiotape or a videotape. And I’m not an expert on this, and I haven’t seen this particular tape. But the general feeling in the government is that what they’re doing is trying to pretend that they’re functioning well, leave the impression that people should give them money, their financiers, leave the impression that they’re a viable organization and that they should get recruits and just generally give encouragement to their people. Of course, the purpose... they’re terrorists, and the purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. So by using an information operations campaign like this, they are hoping also to terrorize people and frighten them.

JIM LEHRER: It must be awfully galling to you though to think that this guy might be alive out there somewhere.
DONALD RUMSFELD: No.

JIM LEHRER: No?
DONALD RUMSFELD: No, not really, no. If you think about it, it’s very hard to find a single individual. We haven’t found Mullah Omar; we haven’t found Saddam Hussein. Now, we’ve found something like 42 out of the top 55 in Iraq, which is good. And some of them turned themselves in I should point out. But think how long people are on the FBI’s most wanted list. Some are on there ten years, fifteen years.

JIM LEHRER: Now, two questions. Let’s start at the end and work back. Why can’t our forces stop these people, these foreign types from coming into Iraq?
DONALD RUMSFELD: Well, that’s like asking do you think our borders with Mexico and Canada are sealed or are they porous? Do people move back and forth across them that we don’t know about?

JIM LEHRER: Now Mr. Secretary, you know that’s not a good analogy, the United States and Canada.
DONALD RUMSFELD: The United States and Mexico. I mean it’s a border is a problem.

JIM LEHRER: And they’ve come to cause trouble and to kill people.
DONALD RUMSFELD: Sure. We’ve scooped them up and arrested them and killed them. There’s something in excess of 100 just from one or two countries. And we’ve got that many that have been captured and killed. And some of them have in their... they have money that they’ve been given to do this. They’ve got leaflets that recruited them.
Just like we thought, Rummy’s been keeping score. Just one more:

JIM LEHRER: Rightly or wrongly, Mr. Secretary, I went back and checked the record today, the impression that was given in public statements and all that sort of thing was that when this war ended, this war was going to end, that when Saddam Hussein and his regime, you know, fell, then the rest of it was going to be kind of a mop-up. And I’m just --
DONALD RUMSFELD: Not by me.

Good interview.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 10:55:02 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  He's still my hero. I only wish Cheyney wasn't forced to hide. He's just as sharp as the Donald. (sorry Trump, you're out, Rum is in)
Posted by: eyeyeye || 09/11/2003 10:59 Comments || Top||


Iraqi Porn Boom
EFL:
Outside the cinemas on Saadoun Street, groups of men loiter round film posters of naked women, whose private parts are crudely super-imposed with underwear drawn in colored pen. Behind doors in Baghdad’s main movie strip, there is no such teasing. Barely a seat is empty as hundreds of men, most puffing cigarettes, sit in total silence and darkness to enjoy scenes of nudity and sex for 1,000 Iraqi dinars ($0.50) a time.
I think this is a good thing.
The fall of Saddam Hussein liberalised Iraq’s cinema industry overnight. Pornographic movies which had circulated only secretly before suddenly came into the open. The smuggling of films from abroad became overt importing. And demand has proved high despite Iraq’s supposedly strict Muslim morals.
With no Ministry of Information censorship department to get round any more, most Baghdad cinemas are now showing primarily "romantic" and "sexy" films as Iraqis euphemistically call soft- and hard-core movies respectively.
So that’s what that Iraqi meant when he cheered; "Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy!".
The open proliferation of mainly U.S. and European-made porno films, and the pavement posters advertising them, has shocked Iraq’s religious leaders.
"I’m shocked at how popular these films are! I mean, I can’t hardly find a good seat anymore."
They hope the novelty factor will wear off and a new Iraqi government -- which the postwar U.S.-led occupiers are struggling to get in place -- will re-impose restrictions such as age-limits for cinemas and a ban on nudity.
I don’t think the Iraqi’s are going to give up their porn without a fight.
Some among the majority Shi’ite Muslim community are already taking matters into their own hands. In the mainly Shi’ite south, for example, Basra’s three cinemas closed for two weeks after young men on motorbikes turned up warning that if they showed "sinful" movies they would be burned down. When they re-opened, sex was off the agenda and it was back to Arabic movies and U.S. action films -- the staple of prewar cinema bills.
I think Iraq needs a good "protection" program, someone who can protect these theaters for a piece of the action.
Faris Sami, who owns a shop selling films on CDs -- including a fair sprinkling of "romantic" and "sexy" films -- is worried about the corrupting effect on teenagers and would like to see some restrictions back. But he is relieved not to be running the same risks as before when he and his business partner would secretly sell sex films to trusted clients and friends.
"Uday (Saddam’s son) had a big campaign a couple of years ago. They put my partner in jail for three months," Sami said in his Baghdad shop. "For them, everything was allowed. For the people, everything prohibited."
Exactly.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 9:15:04 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They get damn fast used to the coca cola culture indeed!
Posted by: Murat || 09/11/2003 9:40 Comments || Top||

#2  And isn't it GREAT, Murat?!!! But I should inform you that Europe has porn down to an art the rest of the world can't compete with. If you don't believe me, take a trip to Amsterdam or Hamburg. Nowhere in the US (that I'm aware of) can compete.

Only the whiskey and democracy left. Hell, the prioritization's up to them. Basra used to be renowned for its clubs and casinos. Looks like that may be true once again. And won't their neighbours hate it?
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 9:49 Comments || Top||

#3  Well, when the alternative is the Mecca Cola culture, where the only publicly acknowledged sex is Uday raping your daughter, your apt to switch rather quickly.
Posted by: af || 09/11/2003 10:06 Comments || Top||

#4  So, how did they get them in? Via Iran??? Kuwait, which was going over to Shari'a around 9/11/01?
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 10:33 Comments || Top||

#5  Nah, all they need is for the Mafia to roll in and start charging Imans protection money on all the mosques. After all, it's a dangerous place and they wouldn't want any more "Holy Houses of the Mentally Deranged" (TM) to blow up now would they?
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 10:34 Comments || Top||

#6  what iraq needs isnt porn.

and what Iraq needs isnt a crackdown on porn.

What iraq needs is debate, argument, among Iraqis, about whether and how they should regulate porn. and when theyre done debating, let them vote. And IF they decide to censor, the censorship had pretty damn well follow legal procedures, with the opportunity to defend in court, etc. And folks who want to argue to loosen the censorship had better have the right to so argue. No Council of Guardians, thank you very much.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 11:29 Comments || Top||

#7  Hey, go easy on 'em, LH. These guys've been through a lot lately. If they think they need porn, they need porn. It's not hurting anyone, and the wimmin probably appreciate the leerier eyes being pointed elsewhere.

Let them have porn, beer, teevee, the lot. Without censorship. They won't go to the dogs, they'll be thinking like Westerners in no time.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 11:59 Comments || Top||

#8  LH >>> I agree with you, however, we both know damn well that the Imans and their thugs will just go into action. Even if Iraq does emerge into a middle eastern democracy, it'll just be a target for takeover both internally and externally. The rest of the muslim world will turn it's back on them and most likely sanction takeover attempts to "save" them from the evil western powers.
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 12:29 Comments || Top||

#9  Bulldog - The benefit of letting them vote on it is like the benefit of letting a child touch a hot stove. All the men will hypocritically vote to get rid of porn (out of fear that Saddam and Allah are watching), and then six months later will be scratching their heads and saying, "S@#% - what was I thinking? I didn't know my ACTIONS would have CONSEQUENCES." And they'll hopefully remember the lesson when it comes time to choose between the pro-freedom president and the Koran-thumper.
Posted by: Sade || 09/11/2003 13:31 Comments || Top||

#10  Yeah, I agree that in principle it's a good idea, but in practice there are more important issues. It wouldn't be auspicious if Iraq's first re-democratization was "whether or not to ban or censor jazz-mags." Besides, give 'em more than a taste of freedom now, and they won't want to vote for restrictive government in the future.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 14:07 Comments || Top||

#11  Why does the phrase"Balls to the wall"come to mind?
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 14:38 Comments || Top||

#12  I'd be gaurding the porn theatres now. The radicalists will call it 'sinful' and try to blow it up.

That is, if they aren't watching with the Iraqi's.

Also, Europe does have the porn industry down. Child porn, that is. Not the pictures, but the movies and 'handouts'. I even hear it's LEGAL at some places over there. Disgusting, no?
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 14:49 Comments || Top||

#13  When I first saw the headline for this article, I thought a porn shop had been boomed.
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 17:13 Comments || Top||

#14  Charles, I'd be extremely surprised if that sort of thing was legal anywhere in Europe, though I suppose the sexual age of consent will vary between countries, as it does for purchasing alcohol. PS What's a 'handout'?!

Katz, LOL what an image. Nope, I don't think they'd be wise to try that approach.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 18:06 Comments || Top||

#15  "Charles, I'd be extremely surprised if that sort of thing was legal anywhere in Europe, though I suppose the sexual age of consent will vary between countries, as it does for purchasing alcohol."

I wonder if Aris or someone else could enlighten us as to why the EU wouldn't enforce a UNIFORM age of consent when it comes to issues such as this?!?
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 09/11/2003 18:23 Comments || Top||

#16  Makes much sense to me. One of the first things the East Germans did when the wall came down was to storm the porn shops in West Berlin.
Posted by: True German Ally || 09/11/2003 21:43 Comments || Top||

#17  "Hand-outs", and this is absoulely revolting, are basically runaway and homeless children rented out as sex slaves. I don't know fore sure if it's legal anywhere, but I do know it happens in Eastern Europe. This is also where alot of the internets Child Porn Industry comes from.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 22:38 Comments || Top||

#18  But they heard all of the women in the were JOOOOOOOOOS. Watch out for that sticky spot
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire || 09/11/2003 23:27 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Accidental Blast Injures Two "Experts" in Manila
Two police bomb experts were wounded when a sample explosive blew up during a bomb detection seminar for airport employees on Thursday, an official said.
In my training sessions, this would be known as a "attention getter".
One of the officers apparently triggered the device accidentally, said Teresa Gaerlan, an information officer with the Manila International Airport Authority.
No shit!
About 50 airport employees were at the seminar and one was injured when many fled in panic after the bomb went off, shattering windows and partly bringing down its ceiling. One of the officers lost two fingers and suffered ear and forehead injuries. An airport operations officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said seminar organizers had brought in grenades, dynamite and other explosive chemicals to the seminar.
Er, haven’t these guys heard of the concept of using "simulated" explosives?
He said the seminar was supposed to be for airport security awareness for civilian employees, mainly to help them handle telephoned bomb threats and deal with unattended packages.
I’d say "Kids, leave this sort of thing to professionals", but...
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 9:40:26 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  We have seen this dozens of times in Buggs Bunny movies:

"And never, never, never do this (removes the safety while talking) when you hold a grenade" Kaboom.
Posted by: JFM || 09/11/2003 10:25 Comments || Top||


Leader of Bali bombers is sentenced to death
The ringleader of the Bali bombers was sentenced yesterday to death by firing squad after an Indonesian court found him guilty of a "crime against humanity". The judges said Imam Samudra, 33, had been "clearly proven to have planned a terrorist act" under new anti-terrorism laws. He was the second suspected member of the Jemaah Islamiah network to receive a death sentence for his part in the huge explosions at two nightclubs on the island last October, when 202 people were killed.
[snipped, rerun from yesterday]
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 8:32:43 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Aim low, boys...gut shot is appropriate
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 8:38 Comments || Top||

#2  Posted this yesterday
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 09/11/2003 8:51 Comments || Top||

#3  You did, too, Paul. But you posted it small. I missed it. Oops, sorry.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 9:20 Comments || Top||

#4  That's great, Imam. You got your wish. Always good when wishes come true. I know, because our's did, and I feel great about it.
Posted by: tu3031 || 09/11/2003 11:46 Comments || Top||

#5  I just thought of a better way to off this guy: burn him at the stake.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 12:32 Comments || Top||

#6  see how keen he was to die . like global supermarket sweep ! He musta been bored with his life to explode people and be keen about it . Only thing impressive about him was his goatee . Why the security at his trial didnt knock him is beyond me but I think democracy had another play . enjoy prison b4 death . that shit covered porridge looks appealing huh ? (sorry for bad english / am learning SLOWLY)
Posted by: new visitor || 09/11/2003 19:29 Comments || Top||

#7  Welcome to Rantburg, "new visitor". You're doing fine with your English.
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 09/11/2003 19:35 Comments || Top||


Terror Networks
Bin Laden Tape Is Old Material - French Expert
A leading French terrorism expert cautioned Thursday against taking the latest Osama bin Laden video at face value, saying it was largely an edited collection of old footage and sound tracks that have already been aired.
That’s what I thought.
Wednesday, the Al Jazeera Arabic television station broadcast a tape of bin Laden and his right hand man Ayman al-Zawahri, in which the al Qaeda leader urges supporters to bury Americans in "the graveyard of Iraq." But Roland Jacquard, head of the Paris-based International Observatory on Terrorism, told French radio that the tape was above all a show of defiance on the eve of the September 11 anniversary by al Qaeda number two al-Zawahri. "We have to be extremely prudent about this message," Jacquard told Europe 1 radio. "Given that Osama bin Laden has not appeared on a video cassette for many months it’s pretty incomprehensible that in the only video cassette where he appears beside Ayman al-Zawahri he doesn’t speak, he just allows the latter to speak.
Yup.
"The voice of bin Laden we hear in the background, thanking the World Trade Center plane hijackers, is exactly the same message that was broadcast in a video cassette by Al Jazeera on 26 December 2001," he said.
A oldie from the vault
Al-Zawahri’s message was also old and had been broadcast by Dubai’s Al Arabiya network on August 3, Jacquard said.
Another oldie
"Above all (this is) a message from the organization’s number two, al-Zawahri, who wants to remind the world and the United States on September 11 that he’s still around," he added.
"Hey, we’re still important!"
Jacquard said some of the bin Laden pictures may even date from before the December 2001 offensive in Afghanistan’s Tora Bora mountains, where U.S. warplanes and their Afghan allies tried to wipe out bin Laden and his associates. Nevertheless, the latest al-Zawahri soundtrack was recent, as he refers to recent events. But the pictures were old, the French expert said. Other analysts have said the film appeared to have been taken in April or May.
Of what year, 2000, 2001? I think that if this tape is the best that they can do, he’s long dead.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 10:23:48 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Is this a roundabout way of saying that maybe this nutjob is at room temperature somewhere in a cave in Tora Bora?
Posted by: SOG475 || 09/11/2003 10:27 Comments || Top||

#2  The french are the voice of reason?
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 10:30 Comments || Top||

#3  ...Voice of the bleedin' obvious. Still, it's better than usual.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 10:31 Comments || Top||

#4  "April or May" is probably based on the local conditions. Hard to say what year.
Posted by: Dishman || 09/11/2003 10:31 Comments || Top||

#5  Come on guys, we all know that they're both resting comfortably in a Paris suburb, in a villa owned by President Jockstrap.
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 10:39 Comments || Top||

#6  He can't afford to move an inch from the basement he's hiding in. He's pinned down and the next time he moves, it's over.
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 10:56 Comments || Top||

#7  A leading French terrorism expert cautioned Thursday against taking the latest Osama bin Laden video at face value, saying it was largely an edited collection of old footage and sound tracks that have already been aired.

It was necessary for a "expert" to say this? Any Schmoe could have looked at the footage and realized that it was recycled.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 11:19 Comments || Top||

#8  In related news Elvis Presley has released a new tape. The tape shows Elvis is trim and young and healthy looking, indicating that he has been relaxing and clean of drugs since his 'death' in the 70s.

Al Jazeera experts think he is in or around Cuba (because of the vintage age of the cars in the film), or in a small Nevada town (because of the desert backgrounds, and casinos).

When asked for comment Donald Rumsfield indicated that it was likely that the footage was an outtake from the old movie Viva Las Vegas and that even if he was alive Elvis would be 68 years old by now.
Posted by: Yank || 09/11/2003 11:38 Comments || Top||

#9  Bomb-a-rama, I can assure that so far french continous news channels such as LCI are broadcasting the tape w/o doubting its authenticity, and that the left-leaning I télé commentary add this is a coup and yet an another damaging blow to the US credibility.
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 11:42 Comments || Top||

#10  I think Jimi Hendricks has released 17 albums since he died (only one before he died). Maybe death was a good career move for OBL too.
Posted by: mhw || 09/11/2003 12:01 Comments || Top||

#11  Incroyable, Anonymous! Even the BBC's given this a drubbing...
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 12:01 Comments || Top||

#12  Anonymous, how could it a be a blow to US credibility when the US never claimed he was dead.
Posted by: Yank || 09/11/2003 12:50 Comments || Top||

#13  Ladies and Gentlemen---

Live from the Frontier Provinces---


Its the Binny and Aymie Oldies But Goodies Show!
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 13:44 Comments || Top||

#14  Any bets that Al Jazeera pasted together the tape together themselves for a 'scoop'?
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/11/2003 13:58 Comments || Top||

#15  Sweeps week in Islamostan?
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 14:25 Comments || Top||

#16  I saw the video last night. "Deep Thoughts By Osama Bin Laden". Looked like him and his buddy were trolling some Pakistani rest stop for "new friends".
Posted by: tu3031 || 09/11/2003 14:33 Comments || Top||

#17  It has to be a oldie. Bin Laden would never go out in daylight, especially when we have satelites, planes, and menm on the ground looking for him. We probably have men in Pakistan searching, but we won't acknowledge it.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 14:39 Comments || Top||

#18  The Frogs know its phoney because UBL is living with Chirac in Paris!
Posted by: Greg || 09/11/2003 14:55 Comments || Top||

#19  "Deep Thoughts By Osama Bin Laden"
Omg he has deep thoughts ? Just thought him as shallow as the other retards who think repression is a problem to be solved by murder . Lesson leant .. spent your inherited millions on being a stoopid fuckwit . If only I had millions to spend on my problems . First i would have a good diet and then feed the 5000 and pacify the situation blah blah blah , but i guess as he hadnt had a good stint in prison he wouldnt know that .
Posted by: new visitor || 09/11/2003 19:01 Comments || Top||


It's been two years...
The original Rantburg excerpts from 9-11-01 are here. The full story didn't start coming out until a day later. The way we were on 9-10-01 is here. And here is what I had to say a year ago.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt || 09/11/2003 22:49 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Home Front
"Victory is the debt we owe to those who died two years ago. "
Remarks of Theodore B. Olson, Solicitor General of the United States, this morning at the U.S. Department of Justice. His wife, Barbara, was among the murdered passengers of American Airlines Flight 77.
We gather today to remember and pay tribute with our hearts and our tears to the loved ones, friends, colleagues and fellow Americans who were savagely murdered on this date two years ago. We are still stunned and bewildered by the depraved fanaticism that planned and executed the slaughter that day of thousands of helpless, unsuspecting innocent lives, and the infliction of excruciatingly painful and unhealable damage on thousands more. The audacity of the attack, the breathtaking scope of the damage inflicted, and the depth and intensity of the inhuman rage that propelled the attackers is simply incomprehensible to us. Each of us that day was in some way a victim of a level and quality of violence that most of us had never even imagined in our lives. And we each suffer today in different ways from those September 11 moments when the ground beneath us trembled and our lives forever changed.

On that day we Americans were forced to recognize that we are inseparably bonded to others in Israel, India, Africa, Indonesia and other countries who have reaped the same bitter harvest of anguish, emptiness and grief sowed by twisted minds that know no emotion but hate, no motive but malevolence, and no goal but destruction. Nearly every day now, we read stories and see photographs of the devastation and cruelty inflicted by terrorists who attack restaurants, hospitals, office buildings, weddings and school buses. Mindless, senseless, cruelty and hate, and irreparable pain and loss.

Remembering and honoring the victims of September 11 is therefore not remotely sufficient. We must engrave their faces and tragically shortened histories on our hearts and in our souls. We must commit ourselves to the only goal that is worthy of their memories: to eradicate the disease that killed them, wherever it is and however long is takes. Their suffering and deaths must fuel our dedication to stamp out this cancer, and, in doing so, save those we love, and those who come after us, from future September elevens and the pain, loneliness and helplessness we experienced on that day two years ago and have lived with every day since then. We can never forget, but we can never even rest until that debt is paid, and September 11 can be remembered not as a beginning of a slide into chaos, but as the beginning of the end of blind, ruthless, random brutality, and the tears of orphaned children, the screams of hideously burned bodies, and the numbing grief that terrorism delivers. We cannot give up until that goal is attained, whether it comes in our lifetime or not. If we do not persevere, we will be haunted for eternity by the memories of those who were taken from us on September 11. We cannot forget them or let them down.

We do not have to be a president, soldier, attorney general, prosecutor or intelligence agent to wage this battle and win this war. Every one of us, in little ways, in thoughts and words and spirit, can pull an oar, however small or seemingly slight. Each of us can make a difference. But it will take all of us, in our own individual lives, to lead or somehow, in some way, support the achievement of this goal. If we do not, we will pay a tragic price in our neighborhoods, our schools, and our homes. None of us, no matter where we live, no matter how carefully we live our lives, is immune from terrorism. We will either root it out and extinguish it wherever it may hide, or it will find us and strip us of our safety, happiness and everything we cherish.

But we can succeed if we have the strength, resolution and the willingness to persevere. In the words of William Faulkner, "Man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance."

We shall decline to accept terrorism in our lives or in the lives of our brothers and sisters in other countries on other continents. We shall fight this terrible, contagious, borderless, boundless disease. And we shall prevail.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 6:19:29 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Middle East
Fatah (Arafat) calls on people to shield Arafat round clock
Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement urged Palestinians on Thursday to stay around the clock at his headquarters to protect the Palestinian president from any Israeli attempt to force him into exile.
"Save my ass! Throw yourselves on the Israelis’ weapons to save me! I’m too important to martyr!"
’’It is true the Palestinians do not own tanks but they own the determination to resist this Israeli decision. We call on the Palestinian people to be present at Abu Ammar’s compound day and night so the (Israeli) occupiers realise that the people will defend their leadership,’’ senior Fatah official Ahmed Ghneim told reporters, using Arafat’s nom de guerre.
That's so nobody knows who he really is...
Tens of thousands of Palestinians took to the streets throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip in defiant rallies after Israel’s cabinet decided in principle to expel Arafat as an obstacle to peace, a charge he denies. He vowed to crowds outside his compound that he would stay put come what may.
Didja ever notice that you never see Yasser without the towel on his head? He's got corn rows, y'know... And they're all, like, uhhh... nappy.
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 5:40:52 PM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Where's the human shields? Hey, Arafart needs you now, so go there immediately!
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 17:52 Comments || Top||

#2  Please, oh please, let those ten thousand "palestinians" say 'Over my dead body!'

Please, oh please, let Israel answer, 'Works for us!'
Posted by: BH || 09/11/2003 18:00 Comments || Top||

#3  The great advantage of the XM-107 and similar systems is their ability to "reach out and touch someone" over the heads of an intervening crowd. (Hint! Hint!)
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 18:21 Comments || Top||

#4  He is to old to worry about . As my english friends say in colloquial ( slang ? ) 'sling it wide boy , your time is limited and old news' . Politics isnt worth 'jack' (?) they come and go worse than a flea infested rat. If you are in the process of inspiring a people (religion) . eeek we all die , just dont take innocent (sp) people with you .
Posted by: new visitor || 09/11/2003 20:03 Comments || Top||

#5  NV: Anyone who ululates at the fall of the towers, shelters Arafish, ululates at bus bombings of innocent civilians, does that pathetic car swarm and sends their children out to explode is not a human nor innocent in my book - the innocents will be far away from Arafat and the terrorists
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 20:18 Comments || Top||

#6  Frank, you read my thoughts.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 22:43 Comments || Top||


Exiling Arafat Could Bring Violence to Mid-East
From ScrappleFace, a satire blog
A senior Palestinian security official said today that if Israel expels PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat it could destabilize the region.
And I, for one, will miss its current rock-like stability...
"Yasser Arafat has been a stabilizing force, a voice of calm," said the unnamed Palestinian. "He is our Gandhi; our Martin Luther King. Without him, the leaders of social service agencies like Hamas and Islamic Jihad may lose hope and resort to violence. We could see the slaughter of innocent civilians on buses and at cafes and wedding receptions. O, the humanity!" The official said he hopes the United States will step in and protect the Palestinian leader, a Nobel peace prize winner.
ROTFLMAO!
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 5:29:32 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Without him, the leaders of social service agencies like Hamas and Islamic Jihad may lose hope and resort to violence.

BRAHAHAHAHAH ! ! ! ! !
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/11/2003 18:02 Comments || Top||

#2  "He is our Gandhi; our Martin Luther King
I wonder if we can get 'em a room in the Loraine Motel
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire || 09/11/2003 18:08 Comments || Top||

#3  That's just what the BBC said - without irony.
Posted by: El Id || 09/11/2003 19:05 Comments || Top||

#4  so could the removal of burkas (sp?) and oppression (sp?) from bully boy 'religious leaderes ' with some wide boy steroid infested pimps . just a thought . hehehe spell check giving me errors (irony of life i think ...ohh therosaurus , no spell check now LOL)
btw i learn English from an online game called everquest.Thank the asian corporation for my 'waffles and banter? '
Posted by: new visitor || 09/11/2003 19:47 Comments || Top||


Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish
The Israeli security cabinet has declared Yasser Arafat an obstacle to peace and says Israel will act to remove him. A cabinet statement said the government would decide later how and when to act against the Palestinian president. Government sources said the cabinet would ask the Israeli army to draw up a plan for Mr. Arafat’s eventual expulsion from Palestinian territory. Palestinian officials warned immediately that any attempt to expel Mr. Arafat will bring disaster upon the Israeli people.
As opposed to the gentle, humane treament they’ve show Israelis in the past.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had previously turned down calls from Israeli hardliners to expel Mr. Arafat, citing the possible backlash. Some other Israeli officials have also opposed deportation, saying the Palestinian president would win sympathy abroad and would still be able to influence events from afar.
Maybe, maybe not. If he’s dead, however...
Earlier Thursday, Israeli troops commandeered the top floor of the Palestinian Culture Ministry. The move gives them a clear view of what happens in Mr. Arafat’s compound a few hundred meters away. The Jerusalem Post newspaper published an editorial Thursday calling on the Israeli government to kill Mr. Arafat. The paper said Mr. Arafat stands for a Palestinian refusal to make peace with Israel under any circumstances, and killing him would show that the use of terrorism is unacceptable.
Works for me!

I still don't think it's a good idea at this point. After Hamas is something that used to be, yes. Now, it'll distract from the campaign against Hamas and IJ and it'll generate sympathy among those looking for reasons to be sympathetic to the Paleos.
Posted by: growler || 09/11/2003 3:49:39 PM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It's about time Yasshole went!
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 15:55 Comments || Top||

#2  And now the little fucker is daring Israel to kill him.
Posted by: growler || 09/11/2003 15:58 Comments || Top||

#3  Treat him like an asbestos hazard and encapsulate him.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 16:02 Comments || Top||

#4  Just shoot he SOB and be done with it! Who cares what the White House says - it can't get any worse.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono || 09/11/2003 16:05 Comments || Top||

#5  An errand motar or tank round would do wonders for world peace. Hasta la vista, Yassar!
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 09/11/2003 16:07 Comments || Top||

#6  "Let me put it this way: The kid gloves are off, and the iron fist is poised to strike. Everybody should watch their asses."
Posted by: mojo || 09/11/2003 16:11 Comments || Top||

#7  Sorry everybody. You don't execute heads of State; and Arafat was actually elected (granted the election was a farce but it was certified by Mr. Idiotarian himself, Jimmy Carter). The IDF will have to find someone to take Arafat. Egypt looks like one possibility. Morocco is another. The one who gets Arafat will be asked to keep him quiet.
Posted by: mhw || 09/11/2003 16:33 Comments || Top||

#8  you don't execute heads of state who are not at war with you and actively supporting the killing of your citizens, mhw. Arafish is none of the above. Kill.him.now
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 16:42 Comments || Top||

#9  MHW

You are incredible. That election was seven years ago. Time to have another. Besides, since when an Arab chief of state elected with less than 100% of the vote can be called legitimate?

Ah! Did you know how Leslie Howard (Ashley Wilkes in "Gone with the wind") died? He was on an airliner brought down by the Nazis because they thought Churchill could have been on board. (From Churchill's own "History of WWII"). So much for not mucking chiefs of state.
Posted by: JFM || 09/11/2003 16:44 Comments || Top||

#10  In ancient Israel there was a region called MOAB. I vote for Arafat being exiled there.
Posted by: JFM || 09/11/2003 16:46 Comments || Top||

#11  You know, I think that a MOAB strike on his palace might kill or seriously hurt those IDF kids next door in the Ministry of Culture. Watch out if they withdraw the folks in the Ministry.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 09/11/2003 17:16 Comments || Top||

#12  He's still the figurehead for the Palestinians. Isolated and without the terror organisations he controls, he would be a figure of impotence. It's probably a case of 'better the devil you know'. Getting rid of Arafat would be a gamble, besides being a PR gift for Israel's enemies, and an incentive for reciprocal attacks on politicians (perhaps not only Israeli politicians, either). At least Arafat's predictable, and you know he'll do just about anything to save his own skin. His successor (individual, or group - we know aQ think things could be done much 'better' in Palestine -) might not be nearly so manageable.
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 17:47 Comments || Top||

#13 
Sorry everybody. You don't execute heads of State

Oh, really? Hamas just announced they intend to assassinate Sharon. What's sauce for the goose (or sitting duck, in this case) is sauce for the gander.

Saw pictures on FOX of Ara-Rat outside his building surrounded by a bunch of "Palistinian" men. (Notice how there are never any women? Where the hell's NOW?) Looked like a target-rich environment to me.

Ice him.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 09/11/2003 17:58 Comments || Top||

#14  "Sorry everybody. You don't execute heads of State..."

Whoa, buddy, he doesn't have a state!
Posted by: Tom || 09/11/2003 19:08 Comments || Top||

#15  MHW,at one time you didn't target an enemy armies officer corps.American Revolutionary War Sharpshooters taught the British Army a hard lesson on that one.
Bloody barbaric of those colinists.

As commander in chief in a state of war Arafat is a target.
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 19:19 Comments || Top||

#16  MHW:

You dont think Hamas or JI or any of these terrorist organization would hesitate to assassinate Sharon or Bush or any other head of state given the chance?

They dont care about anything except commiting murder in the name of their 'cause'. They dont give a rats ass about the Palistian people or any peace process. That is the message they sent the world loud and clear when they bombed that bus.

Isn't it 'Whats GOOD for the goose is GOOD for the gander'?

I think they should exile him internally to Isreal (i.e. in a prison) where he can be watched and monitored. Didn't someone say 'Keep your friends close... and your enemies closer....'?
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/11/2003 19:42 Comments || Top||

#17  My I've opened a wound haven't I. Its true that Hamas, JI, Al Asqa, etc. would execute Sharon if they could (maybe, maybe not they might actually prefer Sharon to Netanyahu). Here is a thought question? Would the US have executed Hitler, Mussolini, Hito without trial? If the US caught Saddam, would we execute him without trial? If the US happened to apprehend Kim Il Jong would we execute him without trial? I think you all know the answer.
Posted by: mhw || 09/11/2003 20:23 Comments || Top||

#18  Actually, I think, that if I were the commander of Allied troops in Iraq, I'd pass the word, quietly, that it's "shoot to kill" for Hussein and bin Laden. It would save the United States, and the world, a lot of time, expense, and anguish. Better a dead "former leader" than a live one. Same goes for Arafart. He's less trouble to everyone dead. Hamas, Fatah, all the other terror groups are already killing Israelis, so how is the future going to change? It's time to let these sons of scorpions know that they will either learn to live as civilized human beings, or they will die.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 20:38 Comments || Top||

#19  The little pervert is the godfather of terrorism. His PFLP started terrorist camps in Libya, trained the IRA, the Red Army Faction, the PLO, Hamas, Hesbollah, etc., etc., If you trace the "family tree" of terrorism, it all goes back to Arafat.

If he won't leave Ramallah, they should go in and ship him out in FedEx boxes......to about a dozen or so addresses in the middle east and europe.

I would do it myself if I had the time.
Posted by: SOG475 || 09/11/2003 20:38 Comments || Top||


Home Front
The story of love and hate
Gerard Baker - Financial Times
It was an event at the mysterious intersection of Hate and Love.

Hate had been planning for years, concealing itself in the routines of ordinary life. Hate had learnt to speak English, been to flight school, bought airline tickets and rented cars. In Boston and New York and Washington, Hate boarded the four aircrafts, made last, silent, twisted prayers to its own godless god, slipped open the box cutters and took the controls. Hate rejoiced, exulted, as it unleashed its familiar products: suffering and loss and the terminal despair that leads a human being to jump 1,400 feet to a pavement below. That lovely morning, Hate had its finest hour.

Seconds later, Love poured out, trying to smoother its enemy. Love hurtled from sleepy firehouses and busy police stations, climbed crumbling staircases, threw itself into the furnace. Love waited fateful seconds to help colleagues trapped behind desks. Love made its last panicked calls. “I love you”, every one of them said. In the skies above Pennsylvania, Love stormed the cockpit and saved thousands of strangers a hundred miles away. Love lit candles and everywhere Love stood, lifting, healing, reaching. That hateful morning, Love had its finest hours.

In that single moment of time America had never been the object of so much hate and so much love.
... and at that moment we all became Americans.
Posted by: . || 09/11/2003 3:27:27 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Then we began the War on Terror and Revenge kicked Hate's ass.
Posted by: Texan || 09/11/2003 15:53 Comments || Top||

#2  ... except for the ones who became French.
Posted by: BH || 09/11/2003 16:03 Comments || Top||


Middle East
Harsh IDF response to Hamas attacks expected over the weekend
From Haaretz...EFL...
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will convene his security cabinet for an emergency meeting this afternoon to weigh Israel’s response to Tuesday’s suicide bombings in Tzrifin and Jerusalem, which killed 15 people and wounded dozens.

Sources who accompanied Sharon on his curtailed visit to India said before leaving New Delhi yesterday that the response would be harsh and swift, and would be delivered in the
coming weekend. Sharon himself said that Israel "will do what needs to be done; we will make every effort to put an end to terror."
...
In addition, the Israel Defense Forces warned the governor of Ramallah last night that it
intends to begin operations there and in neighboring El Bireh, and that anyone bearing
arms in those cities, including Palestinian security personnel, is liable to be attacked by
IDF soldiers. In response, the Palestinian Authority’s security services stepped up their
alert level - especially around PA Chairman Yasser Arafat’s Muqata compound, for fear that he would be the target of Israel’s operation.

Asked about the growing calls inside Israel for Arafat’s expulsion, a senior member of the
Israeli delegation to India said that "a decision will have to be made about him. Arafat
is the main hindrance to the peace process, and we have seen how he brought about the
resignation of Abu Mazen [former Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas]. Arafat continues to advocate a strategy of terror as a means ofexerting pressure during negotiations, and he will not be allowed to succeed."
...
Israel may finally be taking the gloves off. We will soon see.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 3:18:52 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Sorry about the chopped up paragraphs. I thought that the returns had been cleared....
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 15:20 Comments || Top||

#2  No

problem.
Posted by: seafarious || 09/11/2003 15:32 Comments || Top||

#3  Israel may finally be taking the gloves off. We will soon see.

Although my fervent wish is for this to happen, I won't be holding my breath.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 16:41 Comments || Top||

#4  Thanks for the paragraph repairs, Fred! Couldn't do it without you..heh heh..
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 16:57 Comments || Top||

#5  I think the best thing to do is capture Arafat alive, stick him in a cage and have a big photo-op press conference so everyone can see the caged Arafat on TV. Great propaganda value. Then stick him in jail, hard time. Solitary, no visitors, phone, or other luxuries. End of problem! It worked with Abimeal Guzman in Peru.
Posted by: Scooter McGruder || 09/11/2003 21:49 Comments || Top||

#6  No stick him into a interrogation room and watch him try to make a deal. Video-tape it secretly, and play it on TV. After that, let him go free.

Remember to follow Arafat with a camcorder and tape the exact moment he's stoned to death by his own people.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 22:52 Comments || Top||


Home Front
James Lileks: "Two years in; the rest of our lives to go."
The Daily Bleat for 9/11/03. EFL.
When I was a kid I was terrified of the End of the World. Kids heard things; older kids who’d read that ridiculous end-times tract, “The Late Great Planet Earth” said it foretold a struggle between the “bear” and the “eagle” and we all knew what that meant. . .

Now I am resigned, in advance, to the loss of an American city by a nuclear weapon. The End of the World now looks like a comic-book premise, a Heston-movie conceit. We feared it would all be gone in a day, our world upended like an Etch-A-Sketch. What we never considered was a long, slow war, a conflict that burned and sputtered, skittered from one spot on the map to the other. The old wars were simple: the other side had accents, uniforms, nations, cruel habits and urbane sneers. The old wars took years. The old wars were in black and white. The old wars were monophonic, scored by Max Steiner, released by Warner Brothers, and the only proof they really happened at all was the small battered box in the back of Dad’s sock drawer, the box that held some oddly colored metal bars. The next war would be horrible, total, and short.

Two years ago today I was convinced that every presumption I had about the future was wrong. This war, I feared, would be horrible, total, and long.

Two years later I take a certain grim comfort in some people’s disinterest in the war; if you’d told me two years ago that people would be piling on the President and bitching about slow progress in Iraq, I would have known in a second that the nation hadn’t suffered another attack. When the precise location of Madonna’s tongue is big news, you can bet the hospitals aren’t full of smallpox victims. Of course some people are impatient with those who still recall the shock of 9/11; the same people were crowding the message boards of internet sites on the afternoon of the attacks, eager to blame everyone but the hijackers. They hate this nation. In their hearts, they hate humanity. They would rather cheer the perfect devils than come to the aid of a compromised angel. They can talk for hours about how wrong it was to kill babies, busboys, businessmen, receptionists, janitors, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers - and then they lean towards you, eyes wide, and they say the fatal word:

But.

And then you realize that the eulogy is just a preface. All that concern for the dead is nothing more than the knuckle-cracking of an organist who’s going to play an E minor chord until we all agree we had it coming.

I’ve no doubt that if Seattle or Boston or Manhattan goes up in a bright white flash there will be those who blame it all on Bush. We squandered the world’s good will. We threw away the opportunity to atone, and lashed out. Really? You want to see lashing out? Imagine Kabul and Mecca and Baghdad and Tehran on 9/14 crowned with mushroom clouds: that’s lashing out. Imagine the President in the National Cathedral castigating Islam instead of sitting next to an Imam who’s giving a homily. Mosques burned, oil fields occupied, smart bombs slamming into Syrian palaces. We could have gone full Roman on anyone we wanted, but we didn’t. And we won’t.

Which is why this war will be long.

The world will not end. It will roll around in its orbit until Sol expires of famine or indigestion. In the end we’re all ash anyway - but even as ash, we matter. The picture at the top of this page earlier this week - that blue abstract swirl - was a sliver taken from a 9/11 camera feed. It’s the cloud that rolled through lower Manhatttan when the towers fell. Paper, steel, furniture, plastic, people. The man who took the picture inhaled the dust of the dead. Somewhere lodged in the lung of a New Yorker is an atom that once belonged to a man who went to work two years ago and never came back. His widow dreads today, because people will be coming and calling, and she’ll have to insist that she’s okay. It’s hard but last year was harder. The kids will be sad and distant, but they take their cues from her, and they sense that it’s hard - but that last year was harder. But what really kills her, really really kills her, is knowing that the youngest one doesn’t remember daddy at all anymore. And she’s the one who has his eyes.

Two years in; the rest of our lives to go.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 2:32:57 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Lileks, like Steyn, is a treasure...
Posted by: snellenr || 09/11/2003 15:18 Comments || Top||

#2  You want to see lashing out? Imagine Kabul and Mecca and Baghdad and Tehran on 9/14 crowned with mushroom clouds: that’s lashing out.

He forgot Medina. And, yeah, did I ever imagine that by about 3pm 9/11/01! And quite a bit of 9/12, and 9/13, too.

Later, after the 14 month "rush" to war in Iraq, after the statue of Saddam came down, I'd see the Iraqi kids offering cups of water to soldiers and marines. Then, I was kinda glad that we didn't bomb Baghdad flat on general principal.
Posted by: eLarson || 09/11/2003 15:29 Comments || Top||

#3  Lileks just has the gift, the irrevrant Irish part of me calls it the blarney, the reverent Irish part of me thinks of it as the gift of the bard. Whatever you call it, I could read/listen to him for hours. He gave me something else, too... I'm childless at 50, so I'd long had no one's future to worry about (just an abstract...my country, humanity...). Now I can personify it...I worry about the Gnat's future and I'll do all I can to see she (and all the little ones she represents)has one.
Posted by: Hodadenon || 09/11/2003 15:52 Comments || Top||

#4  There is one thing he forgets whne talking about the
"It is terrible BUT" people: their utter, total and abject hypocrisy. When they whinned about the Afghans or the Iraquis who would be killed was it out of concern for them? BS. Every day the Taliban were stoning women or letting them die without medical assistance, starving regions who resisted them, making bloodbaths of Hazaras like at Mazar el Sharif or at Bamiyan. Every day the people of Al Quaida were trying a new torture on hapless prisoners, like those Afghans soldiers who had their arms and legs sawn. Every day after the fall of Taliban has saved Afghan lives. Saddam has been gassing and murdering an average of AT LEAST one thousand people per month. At least as many children were dying each month during the "Oil for Palaces" program. Every month since its fall AT LEAST one thousand Iraquis have been saved from death, many of a horrendous death. At least as many children haven't died from lack of medical care.

But that is nothing for the Euros and the pacifists. It is nothing because both Afghans and Iraquis mean nothing for them. It is because both Afghan and Iraqui child are only tools to be used and discarded. It is all about their little, inflated egos. It is all about needing to scream "Death of America! It is all about oil" in order to feel themselves superior. It is all about the vision of America's destruction giving them a hard-on. Their hard-on, this is the noble goal they would gladly sacrifice every Afaghan or Iraqui child in world.
Posted by: JFM || 09/11/2003 16:33 Comments || Top||

#5  After the memorial service at the National Cathedral Rev. Billy Graham was being interviewed, and when asked if he thought there was going to be war he replied "yes I think there is and we should use every weapon in our arsenal to win it."
The reporter then asked if he meant even WMDs and he replied yes.
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire || 09/11/2003 18:49 Comments || Top||


Terrorized? Hell, no!
by Steven Green, the "VodkaPundit." EFL
"The purpose of terrorism," wrote the 20th Century’s first terrorist, "is terror." By that measure, our enemies have failed. And failed badly.

Are you, two years later, still unable to comprehend? Be honest now. Unless you’ve dived head first into the bloodiest part of the heart of darkness, then, no, you don’t understand. You and I here in the West, or even that vast majority in the Muslim world, can never really know what makes an educated person do what those 19 men did two Septembers ago.

But are you terrorized? Do you live in constant, unalterable fear?

For me, the answer is: "Hell, no!"

Dread is for the weak; defiance is, perhaps, the American virtue. I’m saddened for 10,000 children who lost a mommy or a daddy that day. I’m angered every time I see a picture of the altered New York skyline. I know a wearied irritation that this instinctively isolationist nation has been dragged into yet another world war. There is real, physical pain in my belly when that sound comes back, unbidden. You know the sound I mean – the thunk-splat of meat hitting pavement, of living people who chose to jump rather than be burned alive.

Americans are defiant, even regarding the manner of death chosen for us by others.

Now go on and let yourself relive that day, just a little. Remember the first reports that "a small plane" had crashed into the World Trade Center. Firemen who didn’t just run into a burning building, they ran up into collapsing skyscrapers. Grounded planes. The stock exchanges, closed. The doubt, the fear, the "what will they do next?" And the realization: Oh my God, we’re at war. War in the Old Testament sense, when the barbarians came to rape and to slaughter.

Relive, too, the days after. The wall of inkjet "have you seen. . .?" photos. You, me, your friends, crying over obituaries in The New York Times. Widows grieving at Ground Zero, who breathed – breathed in – their husbands’ ashes.

Remember, too, our just vengeance. Our president told us, "I hear you, the rest of the world hears you, and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon." And they do hear us, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. They hear us, not because we used our weapons to murder their civilians, but to bring down their tyrants. From our loss, we gave them hope. The loss felt in Baghdad and Kabul is that of Sisyphus without his stone. The sound they hear is the ring of freedom. And they hear us, even if only a whisper, in Syria, in Iran, and – yes – they hear us in Saudi Arabia, too. Maybe defiance will prove as irresistible an export as Levi’s, Coke, and MTV.

Two years later, I’m still angry – and I hope you are, too. But are we terrorized?

Hell, no.
Just one point of disagreement with this fine essay: I do understand, I think as well as possible for a middle-aged guy in Ohio who doesn’t have a security clearance, why our enemies hate us. They’re not shy about expressing themselves, and I see no reason not to take them at their word.

However, "understand" is not synonymous with "accept," "forgive," or "validate." The more I understand our enemies, the more eagerly I anticipate the day when the last terror master is strangled with the entrails of the last Wahabbi imam.

Delenda est Carthago. Let’s roll.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 12:50:53 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  One thing I hated after 9/11 was the way the papers kept featuring hollow-eyed citizens trying to "cope" with the event. The survivors of those killed, I understand. But here in the midwest? I wanted to see some rage, defiance, dignified stoicism... something, other than just teary-eyed victimhood. That was what scared me the most, the thought that people were too wallowed in self-pity to stand up and do what needed to be done. I'm thankful that that fear was misplaced.
Posted by: BH || 09/11/2003 13:02 Comments || Top||

#2  The thing I felt on 09/11/2001 most was PURE RAGE at those that did this! I had NO DOUBT that it was an ISLAMISTS because they are the ONLY people who could have done such a crime. I still want/need to lash out anybody who doubts this because they are FOOLS. But now that we know that the Arab despots (that breed Islamists) are easily defeated we should not stop until ALL are removed. We were alseep then and your attacks did not deter us. BRING IT ON BICTH!
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 09/11/2003 13:49 Comments || Top||

#3  Some equate moving on with forgetting. I will never forget. I have moved on. As I have said many times, our enemy has been explicit. He wants to enslave us or kill us. There can be no compromise, because he has no compromise in him.

In the region where Carthage stood, nothing grows but a scattered weed or two, over 20 centuries after the Romans produced the Carthage solution. Remember you have not won, unless their grandchildren are scared of you.
Posted by: Chuck || 09/11/2003 20:00 Comments || Top||


Korea
N.Korea Halts Work at Nuclear Facility
North Korea appears to have halted worked at its Yongbyon nuclear complex, center of its efforts to produce plutonium for atomic weapons, U.S. officials said on Thursday. But they stressed that the reason is not known. They told Reuters possibilities include: Pyongyang has done this as political gesture to encourage negotiations with the United States; it has run into technical difficulties; or, more ominously, it has finished reprocessing fuel needed for half dozen or more nuclear bombs. "There’s not much going on," one U.S. official said when asked about current activity at Yongbyon. Another U.S. official said: "I sense there may be a pause in the action but would be nervous about concluding that for certain." Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly, asked about media reports about Yongbyon inactivity at a Senate hearing on Thursday, said he would only answer questions in a closed session.
So what do you all think it means?
Posted by: Damn_Proud_American || 09/11/2003 12:45:37 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Take lileks advance and nuke the site, then come down hard on North Korea for the nuclear accident.
Posted by: Yank || 09/11/2003 12:53 Comments || Top||

#2  Probably means they've made enough
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 09/11/2003 12:57 Comments || Top||

#3  "Hey, it's my first lunch break in three years. Can't a nucular physicist eat in peace without all other countries all getting upset about it, fercryingoutloud? Geesh."
Posted by: seafarious || 09/11/2003 13:10 Comments || Top||

#4  Three possibilities:
1. They've hit a snag, and need to back up a bit.
2. They've done all they want to do.
3. They've "had a little accident", and need to wait until things stop glowing.

Dealing with nuclear material is different than dealing with ANYTHING else. The NKor have a reputation for not being careful in their programs - tunnels collapsing, equipment not made to specification, but accepted anyway, and just plain carelessness. You only have one chance when you deal with nuke material - goof it up, and you're dead - along with several dozen of your "lab partners". Russia knows - they've had several "accidents".
Be interesting to see what settles out from all of this.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 15:49 Comments || Top||

#5  Old Patriot there is another possibility. They have another site up and running somewhere else in their charming gulag.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono || 09/11/2003 16:07 Comments || Top||


Home Front
"Two Years On"
by John Derbyshire, National Review Online
The sequel to "Steel and Fire and Stone."
On this site two years ago, watching with one eye as the World Trade Center burned on my living-room TV screen, I wrote the following thing:
This is not an easy enemy to confront. This will not be a matter of great troop movements, of trenches and fleets and squadrons and massed charges. This will be small teams of inconceivably brave men and women, working in strange places, unknown and unacknowledged.
A lot has happened in this past two years, including — whoops — some great troop movements and massed charges. Most surprising, though, in a way, is what has not happened. We have not taken control of our borders and entry points. Our diplomats have not given up their addiction to "peace processes" and "initiatives" and "deals" with people who plot our destruction. Our domestic Left has not stopped believing that everything bad in the world is our fault, and that our enemies will become our friends if we only grovel a little more, apologize a little more, retreat a little more. The self-styled "paleocons" have not budged an inch from their insistence that 9/11 was a judgment on us for our persistent, ill-considered meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, and that all will be well if we give up all those messy, un-American foreign entanglements and alliances
[i.e., let the Palestinians get on with finishing off the rest of the Jews]
and pull back to within our own borders. Our allies in Western Europe have not been woken from their opium dreams of security and peace, even as their ancient churches are pulled down to make way for mosques. Our universities are still filled with academics like Edward Said, lecturing us on our wickedness and cruelty. We have had some modest successes, learned some important facts, and corrected ourselves after some instructive errors. Looking back now I can see that I was a little optimistic that September morning, when I quoted Kipling’s lines on the outbreak of WWI:
Our world has passed away,
In wantonness o’erthrown.
It hasn’t, of course. There is still wantonness aplenty, as witness the MTV music-video awards. "We accept the duties of our generation," declared President Bush in his address the other night. Well, some of us do. As a nation, I think we are a little more serious than we were two years ago, after that ten-year vacation from responsibility. I worry, though, that we are still not serious enough, that the shock was not great enough, that the duties of our generation are too irksome, too unpleasant, to too many of us, that our stamina will not see us through this. John F. Kennedy spoke of the Cold War as "a long, twilight struggle." That particular struggle is over with now. Human evil did not disappear from the earth in 1989, though. It will never disappear, as long as there are human beings. The struggle is an eternal one; when one phase comes to an end, another opens up elsewhere. Do we understand this, in our hedonism and comfort? I worry about that.

Then, when I’ve worked myself into a mood of gloom and despondency, I think of those "small teams of inconceivably brave men and women, working in strange places, unknown and unacknowledged." They are out there, I know. They are in Iraq, of course, and Afghanistan. Hanging around on the fringes of the journalistic-political world, I hear a lot of hints and rumors. If half of what I hear stuff can be believed, those small teams are in Iran, too, and Pakistan, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia, working away silently, with deadly skill and unimaginable courage, to thwart and unbalance and kill our enemies. With all my heart I wish them well. I pray to God that He will watch over them, and protect them, and bring them home safe at last, and forgive us all for our sin and weakness and folly, and show us the way forward to the light.
To those "small teams of inconceivably brave men and women, working in strange places, unknown and unacknowledged," and to the rest of our armed forces, we can only say: good luck, good hunting, and come home safe.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 12:38:34 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


International
America’s growing network of bases
For a symbol of the way that America’s overseas presence has changed since September 11, 2001, look no further than the Peter J Ganci air base. Named after a New York fire chief killed when the World Trade Centre collapsed, this small but strategic base is in the central Asian nation of Kyrgyzstan. This used to be no more than a smudge on the post-Soviet map until it was transformed by the war on terrorism. Ganci is a different beast from the sprawling American air bases of East Anglia, Germany, Italy or Japan, which resemble transplanted slices of small-town America. Instead it is essentially temporary, ready to be mothballed or closed should the threat to the United States shift elsewhere. For bases like Ganci, and dozens more that have sprung up since 2001, impermanence is the whole point. They are heavily guarded and discreet to avoid provoking often hostile local populations. There are no wives or children to be seen: only air force technicians, soldiers or special forces.

The other constant is the presence of contractors from the private corporations that provide logistics to the US military. Some outsiders have watched the astonishing spread of US power across the globe and accused America of building a new empire. Ganci lies at the heart of what Pentagon planners call "the arc of instability" — a band of troubled, poor or failed states taking in the drug-producing areas of Latin America, much of Africa, the Balkans, the Middle East, Central Asia and South-East Asia. Before September 11, few in Washington gave much thought to these unhappy regions. Since the attacks, the United States has moved with speed and stealth to secure air bases, landing rights, and military agreements across the arc. "Since September 11, 2001, the United States has built, upgraded or expanded military facilities in Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Oman, Bulgaria, Romania, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Djibouti, the Philippines and Diego Garcia," said Patrick Garrett, who tracks US military deployments for a Washington clearing house for strategic intelligence, globalsecurity.org. The United States is reportedly seeking bases in Mali and Algeria, and permission to refuel in Uganda and Senegal. There is also talk of bases in Singapore, Australia and even Vietnam.

It certainly looks like a new empire. But empires imply a desire to hold and defend vast territories. The United States wants only to land, fight - then leave, if need be. Pentagon chiefs envisage a global network of "lily pads" or "warm bases", forward depots which would hold enough weaponry, vehicles and supplies to equip large rapid reaction forces, which would fly in at short notice through a handful of large air hubs, such as Ramstein in Germany. Other equipment would be kept in floating warehouses at sea. Strike forces would head for "virtual bases", airfields in any of a wide range of countries to have granted the United States emergency access rights. So, far from entangling the United States in imperial alliances, the new doctrine is instead born of distrust, and America’s fears of being let down by even its oldest allies, argues Celeste Johnson Ward, a fellow of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

In the long term, the Pentagon’s dreams are more radical still. Its research arm recently solicited bids for a new breed of space-based unmanned hypersonic bombers, capable of taking off from American soil and striking targets on the far side of the globe within two hours, without waiting for permission to use bases, or for overflight rights. The ultimate aim is to leave America’s enemies in fear of a strike from a clear blue sky at any second or, in the Pentagon’s words, "to hold adversary vital interests at risk at all times".
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 09/11/2003 12:30:08 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Very Cool, This is what Dick Gephardt calls a miserable failure.
Posted by: Lucky || 09/11/2003 12:59 Comments || Top||

#2  What really caught my imagination was the idea floated about space-based tungsten rods that would be satellite-guided and would be able to destroy hardened underground bunkers. Now THAT would be a strike out of a clear blue sky, and with probably no warning whatsoever.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 13:07 Comments || Top||

#3  Bomb-a-rama---I like the tungsten rods also. I can see it now:

We have a load of Wolfram Bombs (W-bombs) aimed at your bunker. Surrender now or become a TIG weld!
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 13:27 Comments || Top||

#4  More proof that 19 hijackers really can have a major influence on world events, just not in the way they intended.

"...or become a TIG weld!" -- Thanks, AP, my first laugh of the day. But why waste good tungsten -- we already have ballistic nukes, and they'll handle a 40 sq. mile "tribal area" better than any tungsten rods.
Posted by: Tom || 09/11/2003 13:46 Comments || Top||

#5  What's a TIG weld?
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 13:48 Comments || Top||

#6  From TIG Welding

Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (GTAW) is frequently referred to as TIG welding. TIG welding is a commonly used high quality welding process. TIG welding has become a popular choice of welding processes when high quality, precision welding is required.

In TIG welding an arc is formed between a nonconsumable tungsten electrode and the metal being welded. Gas is fed through the torch to shield the electrode and molten weld pool. If filler wire is used, it is added to the weld pool separately.
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/11/2003 14:04 Comments || Top||

#7  "space-based tungsten rods that would be satellite-guided and would be able to destroy hardened underground bunkers"

Everything old is new again, Project Thor:
THOR: Thor Odinson was the Norse God of Thunder. One of his missions was vengeance against those who harmed the Aesir, as well as recovery of any property stolen from them. The first practical Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) deployed by the United States was code named "Thor". That missile has long been retired from the inventory. In 1964 Dr. Jerry Pournelle described a potential weapons system concept consisting of a guided orbiting element with terminal guidance. In 1975 he published a new and more complete description of the system that could have been deployed in the mid-1980's. The completion of the GPS (Global Positioning System) satellite system eliminated one of the largest expense requirements for deploying Thor. The basic weapon system consists of an orbiting element some 20 to 40 feet long. It requires a GPS receiver to locate itself; a means of taking it out of orbit; an atmospheric guidance system, such as a means of changing its center of gravity (moving weights, small fins, etc.), and a communication system to give it a target and activate the system. No warhead is wanted or needed. Thor will impact a target area at about 12,000 feet per second; that is sufficient kinetic energy to destroy most hard targets, with minimum collateral damage and of course no fall-out. Achievable accuracy has been estimated at ten to twenty feet CEP.

And yes, it's that Jerry Pournelle.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 14:18 Comments || Top||

#8  Dreamland"Nelis Airforce Base,Nevada.
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 14:31 Comments || Top||

#9  Area 51 freaks: Leave the Groom Lake chaps alone to do their work and GTFOOTW! ;)
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 14:50 Comments || Top||

#10  Maybe that's why Bush backed out of that missle treaty? I know there was one that prohibited us or the Soviets from using space-based weaponry.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 15:18 Comments || Top||

#11  "Footfall" had some more information about such things as "flying crowbars" and other such instruments of space-based warfare. The ending was a bit far-fetched, but the overall read was excellent. I always like "hard-science" fiction because it DOES have that level of detail. We have the capacity today to put most of the "fiction" in science fiction into the trash bin. All we need is the national resolve.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 15:43 Comments || Top||

#12  Alaska Paul I don't think it is really a standard welding procedure but TAG (A for active) would better describe the beast.

Dorf
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 20:52 Comments || Top||


Africa: North
Jews to be Sued for Historical Plundering?
CAIRO (Reuters) - An Egyptian lawyer said Wednesday he was planning to sue the world’s Jews for "plundering" gold during the Exodus from Pharaonic Egypt thousands of years ago, based on information in the Bible.
"Lets give the PA and The International Pro-Holocaust Solidarity Movement a break"
Nabil Hilmi, dean of the law faculty at Egypt’s al-Zaqaziq University, said the legal basis for the case was under study by a group of lawyers in Egypt and Europe.
You-Rope. Of course.
"This is serious, and should not be misread as being political against any race. We are just investigating if a debt is owed," Hilmi told Reuters in a telephone interview.
Then his lips fell off
The relevant passage from the Bible, Exodus 12 verses 35 to 36 reads: "The Israelites had done as Moses told them; they had asked the Egyptians for jewelry of silver and gold, and for clothing. ... And so they plundered the Egyptians." This translation is in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible.
Wait a minute; isn’t it a crime to treat the Bible as fact down there?
Some Jewish commentators say that while the Biblical passage may be fact, the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians and therefore had a right to claim compensation for wages.
Sauce for the goose

"Hilmi’s assertion that the Hebrew Bible is fact has given Israel and Jews the world over a reason to rejoice. He has opened the door for all Jews to sue Egypt for over 400 years of slavery," writer Beth Goodman told Reuters.
If he wins
Tareq Zaghoul, a lawyer at the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights in Cairo, said it would be difficult to prove historical fact in the passage that would stand up in court.
Hilmi’s more likely to get stoned to death
"This needs historical documents and evidence to back it up. It is rather far-fetched," he said.
"But the idea has merit"
Hilmi said Egyptian and European historical and religious experts were trying to establish if the biblical passage could be taken as fact, and hence form the basis for a lawsuit.
U bet the EUnuchs jumped at the chance.
He said the argument that Jews could sue Egypt for enslaving them was also being studied by experts.
"Can they or can’t they?"
Hilmi gave no details of which court he planned to file the case in or whether he thought such a case would be exempt from the sort of statute of limitations that in many countries rules out legal cases after a certain period of time.
The statute of limitations.
He also declined to put a value on the goods "plundered."
If Hilmi wins, the result will be an uncloseable Pandora’s Box
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 12:16:37 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Further proof that the Arab world is simply an insane asylum.
Posted by: RLS || 09/11/2003 12:26 Comments || Top||

#2  Hey, don't laugh, it's given me an idea. You see I had an ex-wife that plundered my "historical" resourses every payday.

"...Hello, get me Johnny Cochran!"
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 12:31 Comments || Top||

#3  I want to sue Italy for the Romans using Hun Slaves
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 09/11/2003 12:31 Comments || Top||

#4  So the undeniable truth is in the bible? The Quran is a lie? That'll be a pyrrhic victory
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 12:36 Comments || Top||

#5  Yosemite Sam - Get in line, buddy. Them there Italians Romans owe a lot of money and I want my cut, too. ;)
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 09/11/2003 12:54 Comments || Top||

#6  Details of the Egyptian suit filed
in Switzerland against the Jews were revealed today:

"If we assume," Dr. Nabil Hilmi, dean of the faculty of law at the
University of Al-Zaqaziq replied, "that the weight of what was stolen was
one ton, its worth doubled every 20 years, even if the annual interest is only
5 percent. In one ton of gold is 700 kilograms of pure gold — ' and we must
remember that what was stolen was jewelry, that is, alloyed with copper.
Hence, after 1,000 years, it would be worth 1,125,898,240 million tons, which
equals 1,125,898 billion tons for 1,000 years. In other words, 1,125 trillion
tons of gold, that is, a million multiplied by a million tons of gold. This is
for one stolen ton. The stolen gold is estimated at 300 tons, and it was not
stolen for 1,000 years, but for 5,758, by the Jewish reckoning. Therefore the
debt is very large."

It may not be large enough to offset the claim for 430 years of forced labor by
the 600,000 Jews they are confirming with this suit they enslaved. In addition
the courts may doubt the notion that the freed slaves did indeed steal anything
as that remains unproven.



Labor rates in Egypt 6000 years ago were about of 1 ounce of gold per year...
multiplied by the man/years worked that comes out to 8,100 tons of gold... when
you deduct the 300 owed at the time of the liberation that still leaves a debt
of 7,800 tons ( or about 27 times the Egyptian claim ) multiplied by 5,748 years
of interest ( at 6% ) and corrected for the interest due the 430 years enslaved
comes to about...

223,979,434,901,742,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,-

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,-

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000
tons of gold the Egyptians owe the Jews.


But to help the Egyptians who apparently have difficulty counting that high...
"the debt is very large"



...though I'm sure "the debt can be rescheduled over 1,000 years, with the
addition of the cumulative interest during that period."
Posted by: DANEgerus || 09/11/2003 13:53 Comments || Top||

#7  They can't do interest. I think that Prophet guy calls it usury. Plus you have to be able to do math above fingers and toes, so that's strike two. And fuck them makes strike three.
Posted by: tu3031 || 09/11/2003 14:01 Comments || Top||

#8  Ever wonder why "Slav" and "slave" have the same root?
As a person of Slav origin, pretty much everybody owes me money.
The Turks, the Avars(Chechens) Mongols, Germans , anybody that supported Communism
the Egyptians (well the decendants of the Mameluke sultans anyway.) as well as the descendants of the rulers of El-Andalus.

SHOW...ME...THE...MONEY!!!!
Posted by: Dushan || 09/11/2003 14:01 Comments || Top||

#9  Himli must have been reading about the Reperations Movement here and thought it was a good idea.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 14:33 Comments || Top||

#10  *random ramble*
Not sure if the 430 years figure is accurate - if I remember correctly Jews originally came voluntarily to Egypt, invited by Joseph and his family, and it was only halfway through that the Egyptian dynasty changed and Jews were enslaved by the new rulers. So, probably 200 years or something? Or less.

I think some people called the "Hyksos" were also involved according to this theory. Hyksos were invaders of Egypt -- if the Hebrews (also foreigners) had thrived under the Hyksos rule, then the new native Egyptian dynasty (after the uprising that overthrew the Hyksos) would have probably despised them alongside their former masters.

For this theory to hold, btw, the Exodus would need to have occured not during Ramses II's reign (as generally seen in films, without biblical support however) but a whole dynasty earlier.
*/random ramble*
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 14:33 Comments || Top||

#11  Perhaps the Egyptian can ask recompensation for the death of the firstborn instead?

God needs a lawyer. ^_^
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 09/11/2003 14:35 Comments || Top||

#12  I remember some talk show host said,

Reparations....Rape-a-Nation
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 14:42 Comments || Top||

#13  What a combination! Muslims and trial lawyers!
Posted by: Greg || 09/11/2003 14:50 Comments || Top||

#14  What a combination! Muslims and trial lawyers!
Shoot on sight, with very heavy weapons.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 15:03 Comments || Top||

#15  Muslims AND lawyers?! Dear God, somebody start shooting before they inter-breed!

^_^
Posted by: Ed Becerra || 09/11/2003 18:07 Comments || Top||

#16  I think this is just a cunning plan to remind the world that the Arabs "introduced" the zero (actually the Maya and the Hindu used it way before).
Now multiply zero brain by zero brain...
Posted by: True German Ally || 09/11/2003 19:11 Comments || Top||

#17  Zero brain x Zero brain= Radical Muslim Lawyer.

" We defend you, and if you use we'll proclaim Jihad! "
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 21:21 Comments || Top||


Middle East
IDF - Yasser’s New Neighbor
Thursday, IDF soldiers in the West Bank city of Ramallah commandeered the Palestinian Authority Culture Ministry building, Palestinian sources told Israel Radio. The step took place hours before the security cabinet prepared to meet on Thursday to discuss Israel’s response to a recent wave of terrorism, and a proposal to exile Arafat from the territories. Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said before the meeting that a majority of the cabinet body favored banishing Yasser Arafat, but that the decision might be deferred as a result of other factors, an apparent reference to Washington’s opposition to the step.
"OK, heads we expel him, tails we kill him. Ari, call it in the air...."
The radio said Israeli troops took over the top floor of the building, which overlooks Yasser Arafat’s Muqata headquarters compound, forcing all of the officials working there to leave. A military official said the building has a commanding view of what transpires in the Muqata, the radio reported, describing the take-over as "deterrent in nature" and quoting him as saying, "At this stage we are speaking of a message and a signal to the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat."
"Yaaaaasseeeer, come out and plaaaay!"
More like setting up to pot the Bad Boyz who come to take refuge with Yasser...
Sources who accompanied Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on his curtailed visit to India said before leaving New Delhi on Wednesday that Israel’s response to the Tuesday suicide bombings that killed 15 people would be harsh and swift, but did not specify the measures. One source said that a response was expected during the course of the coming weekend.
They’re polishing the big hammer.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 11:18:58 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  first! Bwahahahaha
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 11:21 Comments || Top||

#2  Mubarak has said that Egypt would take Arafat if Israel expelled him. They could then punish Arafat by making him take phone call after phone call from Jimmy Carter.
Posted by: mhw || 09/11/2003 11:57 Comments || Top||

#3  Culture...?

okay, I'm stumped. What useful service do they provide, exactly? Are they the ones who print the official "martyrs for Jihad" trading cards? Do they sponsor the horrible murals gleefully depicting Jews blown to pieces? Or, maybe they just distribute the candy after a "successful" homicide bombing?

Posted by: Dripping Sarcasm || 09/11/2003 12:00 Comments || Top||

#4  Well within the effective range of the Barrett XM-107, I hope.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 12:52 Comments || Top||

#5  Culture Ministry?

Culture as in pretty pictures, or culture as in mold, yogurt, and anthrax?
Posted by: BH || 09/11/2003 12:53 Comments || Top||

#6  Cut off the babywipes and the government falls in a week.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 13:38 Comments || Top||

#7  I believe exile would be a mistake,it would just give him a wider field to manuver and scheme
Better to tear down all surrounding structures,build a big-ass wall around the Arafats personal quarters.With lots of gaurd towers,automatic weapons,armor and artillary support.
Then cut off all comunications,the only thing allowed in food,medicine and pampers.
In essence it would be the same as throwing his ass in prison and solitary confinement,without actually laying a hand on his incontinant ass.
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 14:48 Comments || Top||

#8  Raptor, that sounds like the beginning of a good plan. You forgot the part about stopping all drainage and discharge FROM the site, and hooking it up to Ramalla's sewer system to dump stuff IN. "Yassar Arafart, how long can you tread water sewerage?"
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 15:53 Comments || Top||

#9  Raptor, that sounds like the beginning of a good plan. You forgot the part about stopping all drainage and discharge FROM the site, and hooking it up to Ramalla's sewer system to dump stuff IN. "Yassar Arafart, how long can you tread water sewerage?"
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 15:53 Comments || Top||

#10  I really hope the Paleos do not set light to those buildings with the IDF inside.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam || 09/11/2003 17:53 Comments || Top||


IDF troops seize PA ministry near Arafat’s Muqata
JPost Reg Req’d
IDF troops took control of the Palestinian Authority Cultural Ministry in the West Bank city of Ramallah Thursday morning, Palestinian sources said. The building, located just south of Yasser Arafat’s Muqata compound, gives the soldiers a vantage point of the Muqata and sends a direct and clear message to Arafat that the IDF is present in the West Bank city.
Red laser dots tend to focus the mind
Palestinian officials expressed concern over the takeover, saying that they expected the IDF to impose a total siege on Arafat.
Good, but don’t let the ISM a-holes get near enough to play human shields
Eh? Go ahead, what the heck...
The action came just hours before the security cabinet was set to meet to discuss the possibility of expelling Arafat. Military sources confirmed that troops had taken positions in the city. Sharon, arriving back in Israel earlier than planned from India following Tuesday’s twin suicide bombings, plans to convene the security cabinet for urgent talks later in the day. Hard-liners in Sharon’s Cabinet have long clamored for expulsion of Arafat. Up to now Sharon has rebuffed the deportation calls, fearing international condemnation. Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, who supports the deportation of Arafat, told Army Radio Thursday that he believes that there is a majority within the cabinet supporting the move. "The moment Arafat is out, someone else will sprout up after him and will control the security forces, the PA’s funds," Shalom said. "The moment he isn’t here, more moderate officials will be able to move in after him."
Either that, or the nutbags will be busy blowing each other up as they wrestle for the Seat of All Power™...
Arafat aide, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, said Thursday that the deportation of the Palestinian leader would set the region on the brink of an abyss.
Ummm... Where is it now?
Likud Minister Yisrael Katz said Thursday that Israel does not have to wait to receive America’s authorization to expel the Palestinian leader. "As far as I know, there is no Israeli commitment to the Americans not to take action," Katz said. "Israel is allowed, able and obligated to make its own decisions."
"If the Merkins don't like it, maybe they'd like to park him in Omaha? Or Berkeley?
Former Prime Minister Shimon Peres, head of the moderate opposition Labor Party, warned that expelling Arafat would be a "historic mistake" that would "deepen the hostilities between the Palestinians and ourselves." He told CNN, "Arafat outside (his Ramallah office) will be more effective and more negative than he is today."
Yesterday Fred and others argued that killing him was premature - I can see the logic, but I’d rather see him killed than expelled, free to do TV interviews and PR cmpaigns
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 11:01:27 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Dammit Frank, I'm supposed to be first.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 11:20 Comments || Top||

#2  alternatively they can just try to prevent anyone from meeting him, and cut all communications (anyway to block cell and sat phones?) If he cant communicate, he cant very well manipulate Pal politics, can he?
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 11:33 Comments || Top||

#3  So let me guess - the Paleo Ministry of Culture's gotta be a cemetary, right?
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 12:39 Comments || Top||

#4  "Arafat, Fatah`s Nasser Yussef row over control of security forces; Arafat spits at Yussef, who then walks out (Israel Radio) "

Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 14:00 Comments || Top||

#5  From Haaretz:
'The security cabinet decided Thursday that Arafat is "a absolute obstacle to the process of
reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinians, and Israel will act to remove this
obstacle."

The decision came during a meeting of the 11-minister strong security cabinet, convened by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to discuss
Israel's response to two suicide bombings in a Jerusalem cafe and outside an IDF base near Rishon Letzion on Tuesday, in which 15 people were killed.

Israeli sources said that the security cabinet
had also decided to ask the Israel Defense Forces to draw up a plan for the expulsion
Arafat.

The decision on removing Arafat was made without
a vote, and Interior Minister Avraham Poraz(Shinui) opposed the move. The cabinet decided
not to elaborate on exactly what Arafat's
"removal" would entail, whether it meant the
expulsion or the execution of the PA chairman.'



Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 14:04 Comments || Top||

#6  expulsion or the convenient "accident" while prying the Arafish from his Ramallah grotto
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 14:06 Comments || Top||

#7  Just have his plain fly over to Lebanon. I'm sure "Hezbollah" will "accidently" shoot the plane down.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 14:42 Comments || Top||

#8  Ah, yes, antiaircraft fire from the so-called "Party of God"! Homies need glasses - nary an Israeli plane nicked so far...
______________________________________borgboy
Posted by: borgboy || 09/11/2003 20:16 Comments || Top||


Latin America
’Horse bomb’ hits Colombia town
A bomb strapped to a horse has exploded in a market in north-eastern Colombia, killing at least eight people, including a two-year-old child. Fifteen people were injured in the blast in the town of Chita, 240 kilometres north-east of the capital Bogota. Residents were crowded into the area in preparation for the town’s weekly market when the incident occurred, army spokesman Sergeant Luis Hernandez said. The Colombian authorities blame the country’s largest rebel group, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), for the attack. The rebels have used bombs strapped to donkeys and horses in past attacks.
Just a reminder that not all assholes wear turbans.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 8:45:44 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Where oh where is PETA when you need them?
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 09/11/2003 9:13 Comments || Top||

#2  That's where your wrong Lawrence. This is all about PETA. They are now recruiting suicide bombers. I've heard that PETA has begun setting up Madrasses throughout the Midwest. They are disguised as "puppy farms."
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 9:54 Comments || Top||

#3  yeah but the ones who dont wear turbans are a tad less inclined to die for the cause.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 11:34 Comments || Top||

#4  After all they sent a horse to do martyr's work.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono || 09/11/2003 16:09 Comments || Top||


Home Front
Two Years
Death does not go away; time does not heal murder.
by Larry Miller, The Weekly Standard
Add this one to yesterday?s list. Emphasis added.
I TAKE A BRISK WALK around the neighborhood every morning. I love those walks. . . .

. . . then I saw it, parked right on the street, a late '60s MGB convertible. Remember those? . . .

. . . even though I was looking at this little sports car on that particular morning, I wasn?t really seeing it. I was remembering riding in it with Jeff Goldflam and doing sprints at soccer practice with him and the time Leslie Schwartz, who was beautiful, overheard us talking about how beautiful she was, but of course the only really important thing I was remembering was that Jeff worked in the World Trade Center when it came down, and that he was one of the people pulverized.

WHAT DO WE FEEL and how long do we feel it? What have we done, and what should we do?

Most newspapers and TV news outfits have, it seems to me, spent two years subtly saying, "Don?t act, don?t move, let it all be. Sit and wait, and let the image grow smaller and smaller like a gas station in the rearview mirror. Very soon it will be a dot, and eventually it will be gone completely."

But I don?t think I'm going to do that. I don't think I'm going to let it go away. I think I'm going to wade through the shrill self-hate and say, "Go on. Continue on. Clean this up. Win." Because I think that's not only the right way to remember the people who held hands and jumped from those towers, I think it's the right way to remember the soldiers who've died on these first few steps to justice. By the way, it's also the right way to remember every murdered bus rider and every terrified Arab who's spent the last thousand years seeing the sadistic face of the torturer who's about to kill him. They're not his brothers, you know, they?re his oppressors, and we are the best thing that?s ever happened to him.

That's the choice: Stop, or keep going; keep our promises, or forget we made them; be responsible, or irresponsible; face facts, or ignore them. It's easier to stop, you know. Beating these folks will take a very long time. Decades, probably, and that's if we do everything right.

BUT IF WE TURN AWAY, what shall we do when the boiling lava resumes creeping down the hill and destroying the world? Maybe we should just stop looking? That's a plan, isn't it? Just turn our heads every time a murderer does his victory dance? We could do that.

And the years will pass, and we can all get fatter and sit on sofas that are softer and watch TVs that are bigger. We'll just keep pretending we don't see, and the best way, really, is not to go out that much in the first place. Yes, that's it, we'll all just stay inside again today.

And the entire Middle East, including Israel (which will be gone, finally)--and most of Africa and Asia, too--will look like rural Afghanistan, not one brick standing against another, dust blowing lazily, no shops, no food, people with faces so worn and beaten down they will seem to have been bleached of all humanity and expression. Oh, and every hundred miles or so there'll be a solid gold soccer stadium.
Not for playing soccer, but for executing people.

And lots more of us will be dead, too, but we won't have to look at that, either. Until, of course, they can kill all of us.

I HAVEN'T SEEN that MGB again, but maybe I will sometime. Could happen, right? Maybe next year. You know. Right around the week after Labor Day.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 6:53:16 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "like the morons they are"
Posted by: Lucky || 09/11/2003 11:58 Comments || Top||


Commentary: We are still here.
Just a few notes on what Ive been thinking. This is a tough day for me.

We are still here. Two years ago, for the first few days after the 9/11 attack, I wasnt too sure we would be. But lets take a quick look around:

Since 2001, we’ve built 25 new skyscrapers in the cities in the US, untold thousands of new homes, cars, aircraft, software, computers, bicycles, telephones, cellphones, new miracle drugs have been designed built and delivered to the market. The American Stock market on Wall Street goes on making money as the miracle of western capitalism that it is. A regularly scheduled election of congress has occured, yet not a gun fired or a tank rolled in the country to make it happen or to ensure the outcome. Children have entered school for the first time or left school for the last time and gone on to enjoy the life that the liberty and freedom that we have all worked for, and some have even died for, has made possible.

While this has been true in the west for some time, its now also happening for the first time in Afghanistan, why, even girls are going to school in Afghanistan(imagine that!).
3 million people who were afghani refugees in pakistan walked home after we removed tyranny from Afghanistan. While the rest of the world predicted millions of refugees out of Iraq when we removed the tyrant in that country, in fact, people who had resettled in Syria and Iran have begun to move back to Iraq. What has Usama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein produced in the last two years? nothing that will be remembered in 50 years, no food, clean water, hospitals or housing was produced by either of those men. Saddam killed thousands of his own people just last year, and his sons killed an equal number just for sport. This year, there are 100 new free newspapers in Iraq. Burger King is open in Basra, 95% of all towns in Iraq are under democratic control by their own people. Saddam Hussein and Usama Bin Laden have done nothing except herald the end of wahabist islamic stalinist fascism. Islam may have a future, but its should be clear to all that the future does favor the survival of Islamic tyranny.

Our fathers and grandfathers once fought a war against another form of tyranny, one which was supposed to separate the world into the "supermen" and "untermenchen". Its hard to remember today, but at the time all bets were on that the "supermen" would win against the decaying and decadent democracies and the men they could produce. Today, there are a great many people who bet that all of Islam will rise up to smite the "decadent west", but the truth is, most of Islam is quietly and secretly happy that the Americans are coming, and for my money, its about time we came. You folks in Tehran, sit tight. Well be there soon, you just wait and see. Just remember the fellas with the ’screaming eagle’ on their shoulders, they are your friends. When they start to fall from the sky, your liberation is at hand.

We need to remember, we are still at war. Its hard to remember that we are sometimes because just like in WWII the war was "somewhere else". It may be 2003, but it does sometimes feel like 1943. Like the people who lived through 1943, we cant see the end of the war just yet, and its all far from a sure thing. We all still sleep with the little prayer of "please dont let me wake up and see people dying in New York again", but we know on our next breath that the end of this war is coming, and we have faith in the fact that, in the end, we will win. We have not taken council of our fears of the all the things that might have gone wrong, but have done our best to ensure the future of civilization in our own little ways.

Our flag and the country it represents are still held in reverence by the people it governs, men and women in uniform are routinely given the deferrence of the heros they are. Self sacrifice has a different meaning here in western tradition, self sacrifice in the west says men will lay down their lives to save women and children, not try to kill them because the had the bad timing to ride the cross town bus. Americans are the first people in history to spend billions of dollars makingweapons less distructive and more accurate. We are also the first culture on earth to put its own men and women at risk rather than deploy weapons that could instantly wipe the enemy from the face of the earth. I know for a fact that the people and culture we are fighting, would not.Given half a chance, they will kill all of us.

The men and women of the Armed Forces of the United States have brought freedom from fear and tyranny to 25 million people in the past two years. Recently, In my local Safeway, I watched a line of 8 people give a young marine the front of the line, he standing in the back of the long line with a package of pampers under his arm. You could see the pride on the face of everyone he walked by on the way to the cashier, you could also see the lump in the throat of each person he passed with those pampers under his arm " I hope he’ll be ok, hes so young" they all said with their silent gaze. That young boy volunteered to put his life at risk, put his life on hold for 4 years, to protect not just the people in that line at safeway, but at somepoint he may be standing on a checkpoint in Sammara Iraq, not to be an occupation force, but to make sure that Iraq and its people become a democracy. Can the people who selfishly march in ’anti war" parades make as much of a positive difference in the world as one young marine can make at a checkpont in Sammara? no way, and for that I feel sorry for the selfish pissy little protesters, theyve missed the boat, they all want to be a part of a revolution to change the world, they just dont want to get hurt doing it.

We now know who are friends are, we now know who are enemys are. The good news is, our friends are the english,the scots, the poles, the italians. The bad news is our enemies turn out to be many of the same people whom american men and women have died to protect and defend ( the french, the germans, the saudis). The french should hang their head in shame on every June 6th, The germans should be required to fast one day a year in recognition of the berlin airlift. the saudis, well, we are getting there arent we......

The job is not nearly done yet, but our president has sent us on a task of draining the swamps containing the mosquitos, rather than handing out flyswatters and cans of raid. Two swamps are drained, we have four to go. Its hard work, and it will take a long time and the europeans will tell us the entire time that it simply cant be done, until after its done and then they will say its was their idea the whole time and will want their piece of the action. Nothing makes me prouder of my ancestors being kicked out of every so called decent country in europe than watching the decrepit self serving actions of those nations today. 15,000 french people died because they havent yet discovered that a cold bath or wet towel works wonders in cooling off the old folks. Imagine what the french will be capable of when the discover the modren wonders of the daily shower for hygene, with both soap and water at the same time, but of course, Im "je simplesse"!

A friend of mine who was in Afghanistan on the ground said the Taliban soldiers who they had captured could not understand how it was that they were losing so badly to the Americans, after they had beaten the Russians just a few years earlier. He told the talibani prisoners "we’re not europeans and we aint godless communists, we’re Americans, we are the worlds trash, most of us are people who were thrown out of europe and the rest of the world. We have no where else to go, unlike you, theres no place for us to run away to. We have to fight or we will be come slaves and outcasts again. We will never do that, we are free and we intend on staying that way. You can have no greater friend or no worse enemy than an American".


I hope that each of you will spend some time today reflecting on how far weve come, and I hope you brace yourself for how far we have yet to go. Fly the flag, hug your kids, call your parents( if you can) and thank god for the miracle that we are all still here, and still free.

We are still here.
Posted by: Frank Martin || 09/11/2003 2:15:11 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Apt words. Thank you Frank.
Posted by: someone || 09/11/2003 2:27 Comments || Top||

#2  I was just watching a documentary on the Discovery Channel on why the 9/11 Hijackers did this, and what the ME thought about it. What they did, was send somebody around the world and asked the Muslims of different countries directly what the felt, thought, and why this happened.

It was interesting, hearing from the moderate side of Islam. They sympathize with us, but they also thought we needed a waking up call. One woman said this.

" The fact that this happened isn't so shocking. What's shocking to you is the fact that it happened in America. Here it's been happening everyday, but no one from your country does anything about it until you were attacked. "

Several things about this comment makes me shake my head.

1: 1700-ft tall towers don't collapse in the middle of NYC everyday in the ME.

2: NYC Being attacked by airplanes like that is like us doing the same thing to a Holy Shrine in Jerusalem.

3: Her sources are mixed up and idiotic. Why? Because this young lady and many others in the Arab world get there news from the internet. It was the #1 source of news listed among all those interviewed by far. And a perfect example of this? She read from a internet article that, guess what, Al Gore was a Joo. And that's why he didn't win the election, she says.

She was intelligent, spoke perfect english( I mean practically flawless ) and talked like she knew what she was saying was true.

Only, it wasn't true. So lies why so many Arabs hate us, perhaps. The Media and Internet sites over there are controlled by the radicalists and Joo haters.

They also think we're arrogant SOB's. ( one of those interviewed actually said so out loud. )

Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 2:41 Comments || Top||

#3  No one more arrogant than a middle east arab in the United States.

Arabs and radical Muslims (and their leftist allies here and abroad) can't stomach the idea of a heterogenous society in which every adult has some voice in their own governance; can't stand that for all its fault and weaknesses, this nation has endured for more than 200 years with an economic/social system which is the envy of the world as a whole.

How it must gnaw at them that we have a president with the resolve to take this nasty fight to the enemy in their own turf, despite the best efforts of our very own radical left, which, by the way, truly do epitomize the very worst ideals in the world; that every person who has raised children, worked a job or run a business in the USA has a stake in the outcome of how this society works and ultimately improves itself, an idea a former shepard from the desert with the Cambridge degree cannot grasp.
Posted by: badanov || 09/11/2003 5:38 Comments || Top||

#4  Frank, Good thoughts on this day of remembrance, but here are some observations:
-They easiest part of the operation is the removal of the dictators. Once the bullets start flying few people are willing to lay down their life for a tyrant.
-Protestors and detractors will always be there and the louder they get the more marginalized they become. If you doubt this, ask FORMER Congresswoman McKinney. Americans (most) want to have proof and since we have an open society and information is readily available.
-I like your story on the Marine but try this next time. If you see a young (or old) soldier in line with one or two items, pay for them. I know that everyone can’t do this but if you can do it. You will have to force the issue but do it because they will remember that act for the rest of their career and into civilian life. I am not saying that you have to put out $100s, but if it’s a couple of items and you can, DO IT.
-Islam is a young religion and at some point they are going to come to the realization that they can coexist with other religions (including Judaism). When that day comes Muslims around the world will weep for all the pain they have caused. If you doubt this, remember the inquisition?
-Europe is in a HUGE social, political, and religious struggle and we should keep them all at arms length until the morphing stops. It’s hard for the major countries to realize that they can’t change the world anymore and they have to follow the lead of this mutt-filled upstart country. I hope that Democracy prevails but we should be ready for a Socialist or Monarchist if that happens.
-There is some chaos in Iraq, but who did not expect this? I know it’s callous but I am glad that Iraq has become a magnet for the idiot soldiers of Allah. I would rather we fight them over there than on the streets of L.A. or NY. But, they would not have an easy time sustaining a force within our borders. When the Iraqi Army and Border Guards are reconstituted we will see a much safer Iraq. Also once the Iraqis have their first couple of REAL elections, NOBODY will want to turn back the clock. Also we will not win over the common Arab until all of the despots are removed, as long as one is around the faithful will flock to his banner.
-We (Americans) still live in the greatest country and that is why people around the world envy and despise at the same time. I was once poor and I felt good when the ‘rich’ people fell or stumbled. Unlike those around the world America is the only county that you have TOTAL control over your destiny. Except for the few lottery winners and those that inherited wealth, most of the well-off people in this country came from the poor and middle class. Try that in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Jordan?

Peace to all and God bless.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 09/11/2003 11:28 Comments || Top||


Who helped hijackers still a mystery
Two years after al-Qaeda terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, investigators remain deeply divided over whether the 19 hijackers had help from other al-Qaeda operatives in the US, and still are unable to answer some of the central questions in the case. The uncertainties persist despite the largest FBI investigation - which included 180,000 interviews and 7000 agents - and raise the possibility that Americans will never know precisely how the conspirators were able to pull off the attacks.

Some of the doubts surround intriguing details. Investigators still have no firm grasp on why the hijacker pilots booked layovers in Las Vegas during apparent practice runs on commercial planes in 2001. But perhaps the biggest riddle - one that has only become murkier in recent months - centres on the support given to the hijackers while they prepared for the attacks, and what that suggests about an existing network of operatives in the US. A recent congressional inquiry raises the possibility that al-Qaeda supporters, in place in the US to help the hijackers, were aware of at least some aspects of the plot and might have been supported by elements of another government, Saudi Arabia. If true, that could mean that domestic accomplices to the attacks are still at large.

FBI investigators - who initially believed that such a support network was likely - concluded by early 2002 that no evidence could be found of any organised domestic effort to aid the hijackers. Since then, FBI, Justice Department and intelligence officials have consistently portrayed the hijacking teams as disciplined operatives who kept to themselves and did not draw upon existing terrorist cells for help. Investigators believe the hijackers relied on unwitting fellow immigrants in obtaining flats, identification papers and other help after they had entered the US. But in a scathing report released this northern summer, the joint inquiry reached a much different conclusion: that intelligence sources and the FBI’s own investigation had revealed contacts between the leading hijackers and at least 14 suspected terrorist associates in San Diego and elsewhere in the US - including several whom the FBI was monitoring at the time of the contacts. The congressional inquiry also alleged that two of the associates might have had ties to the Saudi Government, a charge which has strained US relations with Riyadh.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 09/11/2003 1:18:44 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  We already know how they did it! Boxcutters, money, forged passports, research, lax security, and lack of intelligence sharing. Not to mention we had the entire plan on ( Insert that guy who's being trailed as a 9/11 conspirator here )laptop, but weren't aloud to look inside it. Why weren't we allowed to look inside? Because we had no 'just cause'. The Patriot act took care of that little problem though.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 2:47 Comments || Top||

#2  When American bombs are flattening Mecca and Medina, then we'll know the war is almost over. I think, I hope, the Saudis are getting a pass for now because they are the last ones on the list.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 09/11/2003 9:11 Comments || Top||

#3  Let's see why did they go to Vegas? Why were they in a strip club before???

Well, duh.

I also wouldn't doubt planning was going on, too.

I understand the casino in Jericho is very popular.

Hypocrites.
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 10:35 Comments || Top||

#4  Mustang Ranch?
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 18:40 Comments || Top||


International
U.N. Members Urge Speedy Iraq Transfer
In amendments to a U.S. draft resolution, France, Germany and Russia are urging a speedy transfer of power from the U.S.-led coalition to an interim Iraqi administration. The amendments, obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press, demand more power for Iraqis and the United Nations in running the country.
The former is happening, with luck the latter will never happen.
The amendments were given to the United States ahead of a meeting called by Secretary General Kofi Annan to try to get the five veto-wielding permanent Security Council members to unite behind a plan to stabilize Iraq. Foreign ministers of the five - the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France - are expected to attend the meeting Saturday in Geneva. U.S. deputy ambassador James Cunningham said the Geneva meeting wouldn’t focus on the amendment text, but on what needs to be done to get the international community to come together "to get the job that we want done in Iraq." Secretary of State Colin Powell said the U.S. aim was "the ability to transfer sovereignty back to the Iraqi people and to do it in a responsible way."
Kofi's objective, on the other hand, is to jiggle our elbow enough to cause us to rush. If we turn power over to the Iraqis early, there's a chance we won't transfer it right — we end up with another tin-hat, demanding lotsa weapons so Iraq can regain its "dignity" and we get another 50 years of the same stuff as the past 50. Lots of opportunities for graft there...
The European Union’s foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, told the European Parliament’s foreign affairs committee on Wednesday the 15 EU nations were still "a long way from achieving consensus both among ourselves and with other members of the Security Council - but I do hope it will be possible to achieve some agreement."
"But we are Europeans, so don’t count on it."
The U.S. draft resolution invites the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council to cooperate with the United Nations and U.S. officials in Baghdad to produce "a timetable and program for the drafting of a new constitution for Iraq and for the holding of democratic elections." But it contains no time frame of when this should happen, and it leaves the key decision in the hands of the Governing Council, which has taken months just to form a Cabinet. The United States believes the Iraqis must remain in charge of this process - but France, Germany and Russia want a much faster timetable.
But wait, didn’t they just demand that the Iraqis get more control? I’m so confused!
The French-German amendments call for immediately "initiating under the auspices of the U.N. a new process leading ... to the full restoration of Iraqi authority." They call for an interim Iraqi administration to take control of "all civilian areas, including control over natural resources and use of international assistance."
Ah, light dawns ...
As part of that process, the Security Council would endorse the Governing Council and Cabinet "as the trustees of Iraqi sovereignty until the processes leading to an elected and fully representative government are completed." This would mark a major change for the Security Council which took months just to "welcome" the Governing Council. The French-German amendments and separate Russian amendments ask the secretary-general to assist the Governing Council in developing a timetable for drafting a constitution and holding elections. The Russians don’t go as far as the French and Germans in demanding the immediate handover of authority to the Iraqis. Moscow’s proposal endorses the principle of Iraqis governing themselves quickly, saying the Iraqi interim administration should "be gradually assuming more executive authority" as it implements the timetable toward elections. Syria also proposed amendments, taking issue with the U.S. contention that the threats to peace and security in Iraq are caused by "terrorist acts."
"We call 'em freedumb fighters in these here parts, y'know..."
"The threat to international peace and security is ... because of mistakes made by the occupying power, especially dissolving the Iraqi institutions, mainly the military and security, because there is no clear and limited time frame that would reassure the Iraqi citizen of the end of the occupation, and because of the delay in establishing a constitution and election of a national government representing the Iraqi people," said the Syrian amendments, also obtained by AP.
None of this of course applies to Syria!
A key aim of the U.S. draft is to get countries such as Turkey, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh the U.N. authorization they say they need before committing any troops to Iraq. It would transform the U.S.-led coalition force into a U.N.-authorized multinational one under a unified command to help maintain "security and stability in Iraq" and urge the 191 U.N.-member states to contribute troops.
That frees up the U.S. forces to be rotated out, refit, and readied for next year's campaign in... ummm...
Some council members have raised questions about whether the United States plans to keep the coalition force now in Iraq separate from the multinational force. The Russian amendments calls for making clear the coalition force part of a new multinational force under a unified command led by the United States.
Prediction: the French and German governments will do whatever they can to kill this resolution if their demands aren’t met in full.
Posted by: Steve White || 09/11/2003 1:09:27 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Steve, you've just looked into our future and told us exactly what's going to happen.

Can I borrow your Magic Eight Ball? I need to make a bet for Sunday....
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 2:25 Comments || Top||

#2  Why do the words "UN administered Iraq Development Fund" keep whispering in my ears?
Posted by: mojo || 09/11/2003 3:27 Comments || Top||

#3  How's about this: We provide aid. The UN provides unaid. Sounds about right.
Posted by: badanov || 09/11/2003 5:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Actually Kofi is helping us here. By calling for seperate discussions among the perm5.

In the full UNSC, France stands with Germany. In the perm5, France faces UK and US. China is effectively neutral. Russia is pushing for smaller changes than France. France is effectively isolated. Between US/UK position, and French position, its natural to look to Russian position (which may be modified toward US/UK position) as compromise. France can hardly stand againt Kofi and the consensus of the other members of the perm5.

And Dubya looks smart for playing up to Vlad the Impaler.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 9:06 Comments || Top||

#5  When does Germany rotate off the council ?
Posted by: domingo || 09/11/2003 9:30 Comments || Top||

#6  In amendments to a U.S. draft resolution, France, Germany and Russia are urging a speedy transfer of power from the U.S.-led coalition to an interim Iraqi administration.

Yep, the speedier that power is transferred from U.S. hands into the hands of bribable/coercible Iraqis, the sooner these guys can resume their former activities there.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 11:30 Comments || Top||

#7  Light dawns on me too...

Now I think I see the reason for Ma and Pa Bush's excursion to St. Petersburg....
Posted by: Carl in NH || 09/11/2003 11:51 Comments || Top||

#8  I like how the UN has this great new idea that we should transfer power to the Iraqis as soon as possible. As I recall, that's what the US has been saying for EIGHT F***ING MONTHS NOW A**HOLES.
You know, exactly what we're IN THE PROCESS OF DOING?!?
Posted by: eyeyeye || 09/11/2003 12:42 Comments || Top||

#9  The problem is not when Germany leaves the UNSC (end of 2004) but when Schröder (add expletives) leaves the goverment and we can get our sanity back in foreign politics.
Posted by: True German Ally || 09/11/2003 17:42 Comments || Top||


Home Front
Today is September 11th
God bless America, and we shall never forget the memories of those lost on this day. Their deaths shall not be in vain, and they shall be avenged.
Posted by: Brian || 09/11/2003 12:09:58 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  God bless America.
Posted by: Hyper || 09/11/2003 0:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Ditto! God Bless America.
Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/11/2003 0:31 Comments || Top||

#3  Those people who lost their lives that day
Those that lost family members
Those that lost friends
Those that lost colleagues:
Some of us were those people
Some of us were spared their fate
All of us were affected
In one way or another by September 11, 2001.

We must never get complacent about what happened.
We must be vigilant
We must demand that our leaders are vigilant
and that they fulfill their responsibilities
to serve us and protect our country and its citizens.
We must take the fight to our enemies and put
the Fear and Wrath of God into their souls
so this never happens again to our nation.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 0:31 Comments || Top||

#4  The first line just wasn't enough...

God Bless America, land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her,
through the night with the light from above,
From the mountains
to the prairies
to the oceans, white with foam!
God Bless America, my home, sweet home!
God Bless America, my home sweet home!
Posted by: Hyper || 09/11/2003 0:35 Comments || Top||

#5  Never forget, never forgive, never again. May God bless and keep us all.
Posted by: Seafarious || 09/11/2003 0:41 Comments || Top||

#6  Take a moment to visit the Here is New York website, with about 5500 photos.
Posted by: Steve White || 09/11/2003 0:56 Comments || Top||

#7  On another September day onne hundred and eighty-nine years ago, Americans watched one of their largest cities come under brutal, crushing attack. This one didn't last just a few awful hours, it lasted an entire night and until dawn.
Another generation would call another place like that Ground Zero.
The citizens of Baltimore called it Fort McHenry. One of them wrote words we all know - but it's the words that we don't know as well that mean the most this morning.

"...And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 09/11/2003 1:07 Comments || Top||

#8  "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."
-- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto December 7th, 1941
Posted by: SteveS || 09/11/2003 1:15 Comments || Top||

#9  I pray for the ones who died. I pray for their families and loved ones. I pray that God comforts them all.

I pray that God guides us to make the right decisions. The struggle against evil and those who are evil has so many false turns, so many accommodations, so many paths that lead us to a blind end. I pray that the good people, our country, our friends, our allies, all who cherish life and liberty, will have the courage to stand together and the wisdom to stay on that right path. Come what may.
Posted by: Steve White || 09/11/2003 1:16 Comments || Top||

#10  "Now's not the time to go wobbly, George." -- Prime Minister Thatcher to Bush I
Posted by: Brian || 09/11/2003 2:08 Comments || Top||

#11  As the President said Sunday night: May God continue to bless America.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 2:20 Comments || Top||

#12  Take a moment to visit the Here is New York website

I did and I bought the book (of pictures). I plan to show it to everyone who enters my home. Just my little way of making sure that atleast some will never forget. God bless.
Posted by: Rafael || 09/11/2003 3:32 Comments || Top||

#13  screw all who died , life goes on, what goes around does come around. Like Newyork like Baghdad...only 3000 who cares. This event will never make it to the annal of history
Posted by: steveerossa || 09/11/2003 3:47 Comments || Top||

#14  And what's going to come around for you is a bullet in the freagin head, I hope.
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 3:56 Comments || Top||

#15  http://www.amble.com/images/alqaeda.jpg

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
Posted by: .com (a.k.a. Abu This Believer) || 09/11/2003 4:35 Comments || Top||

#16  A memorial garden will be opened in London today:

British victims of the September 11 attacks were being remembered on the second anniversary of the terrorist atrocity. Families of the 67 Britons who died when two hijacked passenger planes slammed into the twin towers of New York's World Trade Centre are to gather at a garden dedicated to their memory. More than 750 relatives and guests will visit the site in London's Grosvenor Square, which is overlooked by the United States Embassy and which was the focus of grief in the aftermath of the tragedy. The Princess Royal will officially open the garden of remembrance which contains a small pavilion bearing three bronze plaques listing the names of victims for the UK, UK Overseas Territories and those with dual nationalities. A spokesman for the Department of Culture said the idea for the garden originated from the families themselves. "They felt it would be fitting for their loved ones. Grosvenor Square was where people came to leave flowers after September 11. Although most of the families had private memorial services, there have been no funerals. Buried beneath the garden is a twisted metal girder recovered from Ground Zero. Preserved in resin, the half tonne of rusted steel from One World Trade Centre was placed underground because it was too distressing to be displayed. It rests beneath a memorial stone which dedicates the garden to "all those who lost their lives in the 11th September 2001 terrorist attacks".
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 5:57 Comments || Top||

#17  Syeeve,I wish I could track your ass down!
You have to be the sorriest punk I have run across!
The best part of you,Stevee,ran down your Mama's leg!
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 8:20 Comments || Top||

#18  For the rest of the world that have forgotten, remember that people of all nationalities, races, and yes, religions, were innocently killed two years ago. (That goes double for you too, France.....even though you obviously don't give a damn if Grandmere dies in her stuffy Paris apartment.....)

We Americans also mourn their deaths on this day. We won't forget them, even if their countrymen have.

raptor-- to hell with stevee. As one of my old coworkers used to say, "You can't fix stupid, so don't even try."
Posted by: Baba Yaga || 09/11/2003 8:35 Comments || Top||

#19  the troll appears, like the turd in the wake punchbowl. Never forgive, never forget, and if you find steveys address, let me know
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 8:45 Comments || Top||

#20  I will never forget this morning, two years ago.

I was actually having morning coffee and reading another BBS I used to hang in, where I first heard about this. Sprinted to the TV... and just stood there like an idiot with my mouth open.

Between the two towers, the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania crash, it did seem like things were unravelling. Yet America could take their best punch and, despite all the dire prophecies, barely missed a stride in historical context.

I heard how life had changed forever, and of course the talking heads were alluding to an over-reactive American police state, and cluck-clucking about our naivete.

In some ways, I don't think life has changed enough. When you read that support for the WOT is waning, you wonder if we really have that short an attention span... but then you remember the source of the polls, how the questions you ask shape the outcome, how the public is daily softened by the lockstep media emphasis on bad news, and you realize that the war goes on.

Continuing and winning that war, no matter what Jennings, Brokaw, and Rather want you to think, is what leadership is all about.

Damn everyone who caused this and everyone who forgets and everyone who thinks those people deserved this or somehow brought this on themselves. Damn everyone who thinks we should be patient or understanding with the criminals who did it.

Thanks Britain, and Australia, and millions of silent supporters all over the not-as-civilized world who still count on America to set some standards. I sincerely hope we do not let any of you or our own victims down.
Posted by: Mark IV || 09/11/2003 9:05 Comments || Top||

#21  Yitgadal vyitkadah, vyitroman vyitnasae, shmei da kadishu, bri hu.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 9:09 Comments || Top||

#22  May He who makes peace in Heaven, send peace to us and to all who mourn.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 09/11/2003 9:11 Comments || Top||

#23  As the horror of September 11, 2001 unfolded on TV, I sat awe struck and muttering “those despicable bastards”. I continued to mutter this condemnation for several days as more details were revealed of the innocent lives of children, ordinary citizens, as well as rescue workers that were taken by these contemptible madmen. Life in this country for our children and grandchildren would never be the same.

Now comes the vile, ignominious Steveerossa seeking equal vehement condemnation by degrading the memories of those lost lives. You’ve come to the right place for that Stevee.
Posted by: Gasse Katze || 09/11/2003 9:41 Comments || Top||

#24  ...ignore...steve...life...too...short...
Posted by: Bulldog || 09/11/2003 9:44 Comments || Top||

#25  Raptor >>> With all due respect, I feel I must correct you.

It was "out of the goat's ass."
Posted by: Paul || 09/11/2003 10:22 Comments || Top||

#26  Let's roll, let's catch us some Bad Guys™, God Bless America!

Never forget! NEVER!
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 10:30 Comments || Top||

#27  go to www.ushostnet.com/gulfwar/911attack.swf

that's where the tribute from politicsandprotest went to.
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 10:31 Comments || Top||

#28  I for one will never forgive or forget.

Oh, BTW stevie, do you know how many REAL, permanant enemies you just made? It's all fun n' games, ain't it, trolling to see how much of a rise you can get from Rantburgers, but you just terminally crossed the line, bucko. I really want to meet you in real life, boy. But we won't be mokin any meed together...
Posted by: Watcher || 09/11/2003 10:50 Comments || Top||

#29  Amen, Bulldog. Stupidity is a sickness. Arrogant stupidity is a terminal illness. Let it be so.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 09/11/2003 10:53 Comments || Top||

#30  The Story of Rick Rescorla form the Mudville Gazette via Winds of Change is powerful enough that it should be read in private.
Posted by: Super Hose || 09/11/2003 10:56 Comments || Top||

#31  Two planes struck our nation,
starting a mighty fire,
That is still burning nations in the middle east.
==

You could probably work that into a haiku.

I hope the people of the middle east recognize our restraint. If we really were the great satan, we would have responded with nukes, and made some fires of our own.
Posted by: flash91 - fatwah you talkin bout willis || 09/11/2003 11:02 Comments || Top||

#32  Flash91, should be four planes. Never forget the Pentagon and those brave souls in Pennsylvania.
Posted by: Steve || 09/11/2003 11:23 Comments || Top||

#33  Their deaths shall not be in vain, and they shall be avenged.

Not if the anti-war types have their way. We'd be wallowing in our victimhood, and reaching out to the likes of bin Laden to find out why they hate us.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/11/2003 11:24 Comments || Top||

#34  Though not american, I clearly remember what I did and how I felt that particular afternoon (french time), and the feeling is still here. In a very selfish way, 9/11 really changed me, half a world away.
Two years later, while I have no doubts the nazislamists will be military defeated on every battleground, I am equally sure and sad of the victory of their islamofascist cousins. AQ bombings will not defeat us: our lack of faith in ourself, in our values, our cowardice and our deathwish has already done so. The antiwar mvts, the great schiism between democratic nations and our delusions are the sign of our future demise. This is a tragic commemoration.
Posted by: Anonymous || 09/11/2003 11:29 Comments || Top||

#35  Just a suggestion Stevey, but do you pray for death to come and put you out of your misery?
I don't think even the maggots would eat your corpse. It'd probably make 'em puke.
Posted by: tu3031 || 09/11/2003 11:44 Comments || Top||

#36  Steve W - thanks so much for the Here is New York link. Very, very powerful.

Someday, maybe I'll be able to look at those pictures without the big lump in my throat and the tears welling up, but I really doubt it.
Posted by: Jeff Brokaw || 09/11/2003 12:34 Comments || Top||

#37  Never doubt stevey's patriotism, His grandfather fought in the first big one.
Posted by: Lucky || 09/11/2003 12:47 Comments || Top||

#38 
Comment: "out of the goat's ass."
I concede the point to you,Pual.
Stevee can't have a human mother,if he had a human mother she would hang her head in shame for birthing this pile of offal.It is to bad we can't e-mail some of stevee's coments to his parents.
The Story of Rick Rescorla:Can't read to much bandwidth.Must be getting a lot of hits.

Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 12:56 Comments || Top||

#39  Super Hose: Thanx for the link.

stevey: Are you joking or toking here?
Posted by: Katz || 09/11/2003 13:17 Comments || Top||

#40  What a pensive day....we must never forget. But how can you write "never forgive" and "God Bless us..." in the same sentence?
Posted by: MS || 09/11/2003 13:30 Comments || Top||

#41  For forgiveness there must first be repentance.

I can't say I'm going to hold my breath waiting.
Posted by: eLarson || 09/11/2003 15:07 Comments || Top||

#42  MS, I wrote it quite easily. God bless America, and we shall strike them down with the full might of our resources.

Statecraft is secular, after all.
Posted by: Brian || 09/11/2003 15:25 Comments || Top||

#43  I remember watching the towers on TV. I saw the first tower burning, and was in shock. So I do what I usually do when I'm in a bad mood.

Try too shrug it off with a off-handed comment. My first one was this.

" Great, next the other tower is going to be hit dead on too. "

Moments later, that's exactly what happened. You can't imagine what I felt like to actually see my comment happen. Of course, I just couldn't keep quiet, I had too try and console myself AGAIN.

" Anyone want to take a bet on which tower goes first? "

That's when the first tower fell. I will NEVER forget those moments. It was the first, and only time, I have ever felt true horror.

Never forgive, Never forget, and NEVER shrug this off as just another day. I tried, and I have never completely forgiven myself for making those comments.

However, I made a third comment which struck me harder than any of the others.

" Those bastards, why did they attack NYC and not D.C? "

Minutes later is when I found out they did. I don't remember much about that day except for those comments, where I was, and the sheer horror that gripped me.

Stevey, if I ever find you, I will FORCE you to visit every family who lost someone on 9/11, and tell them what you think. Do you think they will just consider it insignificant?
Posted by: Charles || 09/11/2003 15:37 Comments || Top||

#44  stevey, I fully understand that you're too fucking stupid and too fucking dense to understand "little" differences, but if your brain functions even once in awhile, I would hope that you'd rethink your taunt of 9-11.

Its one thing to have disagreements about the division of capital, of labor policy, of wealth etc. Its quite another to blow off the deaths of thousands of innocent and unarmed civillians whose only crime was to get up in the morning and go to work.

Today's post by you was WAY over the line.
Posted by: Flaming Sword || 09/11/2003 16:17 Comments || Top||

#45  There has been an American flag up in my garden on July 4th for decades.
Now there is another day when it will go up every year.
And it will do that as long as I live. That's a promise.
My thoughts are with you on that sad day for all mankind.
Posted by: True German Ally || 09/11/2003 17:52 Comments || Top||

#46  TGA: Thank you.
Posted by: Mike || 09/11/2003 18:38 Comments || Top||

#47  TGA,you are a true brother,your Honor is of the highest calaiber.Thank You.
Posted by: raptor || 09/11/2003 18:47 Comments || Top||

#48  Stevey, you are a coward. You're post is something that you would never say in person. Get over it, yeah, I do not intend to. This day is a hard day for most of us, in my case I spent seven years in the Marine Corps and served our country, not because I had to but because I felt it was my obligation. I take this day a little personal, because we failed to keep the "Barbarians from Storming the Gates," so to speak. I will never forget that day but I live for each new day: going to work, going to school, taking my sons to events, spending time with my family and freinds, LIVING MY LIFE without FEAR. Yes, I am wary and more observent about my environment, but I live my life. Stevey, it is obvious that you don't have a clue about the real world, such the pity for you.

God Bless America
Posted by: djh_Semper Fi || 09/11/2003 18:50 Comments || Top||

#49  Time for Stevey to find a new nic. This one's banned, too.

Never forgive, never forget, never "understand."
Posted by: Fred || 09/11/2003 20:32 Comments || Top||

#50  TGA---Your thoughts are much appreciated and touching. On September 12, 2001 I was working on a number of projects and I had 5 calls from Canadians I knew in my engineering field from Vancouver, Victoria, and Huntsville, Ontario telling me how shocked, saddened, angry, and touched for not only the US but for me personally. I was touched to the core by their genuine feelings for these United States. The carnage is forever burned into my mind, but the goodness of people all over the world is also there, imprinted, too.

Thanks again, TGA.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/11/2003 20:54 Comments || Top||

#51  Mike, raptor and Alaska Paul, welcome.
Posted by: True German Ally || 09/11/2003 21:33 Comments || Top||

#52  thank you for your good taste, Fred
Posted by: Frank G || 09/11/2003 21:44 Comments || Top||



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Meet the Mods
In no particular order...
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Two weeks of WOT
Thu 2003-09-11
  Yasser to get the boot?
Wed 2003-09-10
  Another miss: IDF strikes at Zahar
Tue 2003-09-09
  Two Hamas booms today
Mon 2003-09-08
  Toe tag for al-Ghozi?
Sun 2003-09-07
  Yassin promises Dire Revenge™
Sat 2003-09-06
  Missed, dammit! IAF rockets Sheikh Yassin
Fri 2003-09-05
  U.S. Says Talibs on the Run, 70 to 100 Toe Tags
Thu 2003-09-04
  Army raids suspected rebel hide-out in Indian Kashmir - 7 Dead
Wed 2003-09-03
  Caucasus train boom kills four
Tue 2003-09-02
  Car boom at Baghdad cop shop
Mon 2003-09-01
  Two more Hamas snuffied zapped in Gaza
Sun 2003-08-31
  Five Paks held in Thailand for terrorist links
Sat 2003-08-30
  Two more Hamas snuffies zapped
Fri 2003-08-29
  Hakim boomed in Najaf
Thu 2003-08-28
  Ashkelon hit by Palestinian Kassam missile


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