#4
Sweet Jesus. They're lucky the authorities didn't shoot first and ask questions later.
Posted by: Patrick Phillips ||
05/21/2004 9:30 Comments ||
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#5
âWe were told police permission is not normally needed but with security concerns as they are, we should have asked.â
Um, since when is police permission *NOT* needed when filming things with gunfire? They need to be notified so that when the neighbors complain about gunfire, they know what is going on...
An Iranian national was detained Friday in the southern French port city of Marseille after police uncovered a large cache of weapons, explosives and burglary equipment in a cellar. The 47-year-old Iranian, said to be the owner of the cellar, is already suspected of links to terrorist groups, one police source said. However police said they had so far not determined whether the arms cache was intended for terrorist use or for criminal acts.
They were trying to establish whether the arrested man, who according to one police source was proficient in both chemistry and the use of computers, was the owner of the cache. The find included seven kilograms (15 pounds) of explosives, an assault rifle, five handguns, several grenades and a stock of ammunition, police said. Among other equipment found, described by police as "a top-flight burglary kit" were ski masks, fake identity papers -- some of them in the name of the arrested man -- handcuffs, rotating police lights, mobile telephones with their SIM cards, and maps of Spain. Police said they were alerted late on Thursday by a resident of the building, who got a glimpse of the arsenal in the basement while visiting his own cellar.
#1
The find included seven kilograms (15 pounds) of explosives, an assault rifle, five handguns, several grenades and a stock of ammunition, police said. Among other equipment found, described by police as "a top-flight burglary kit" were ski masks, fake identity papers -- some of them in the name of the arrested man -- handcuffs, rotating police lights, mobile telephones with their SIM cards, and maps of Spain.
An Imam ordered by Polish authorities to leave Poland by Monday next week on the grounds he poses a security risk vowed Thursday he would not go of his own accord, reports said. "I have done nothing wrong and I will not leave of my own good will," Yemeni national Ahmed Ammar told reporters in Warsaw yesterday. "I want to find out why I have become a security threat," he said. Ammar, who is a student of the PhD at Poznanâs Adam Mickiewicz University and the Imam of Polandâs western Wielkopolska province, was served a deportation order approved by Polandâs Internal Security Agency (ABW) which cited security risks as the reason behind the decision.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
05/21/2004 11:21:10 AM ||
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#1
Just tell the good Imam he will be forced to eat a prison menu of delicious Kelbasa (sausage) made with pork every meal. He'll leave.
#6
He's got lots of supporters in Poland. Anyone even vaguely anti-Jew can find instant popularity in Poland.
Wait until Lepper (no joke, that's his name) forms the new government. Spain will look good by comparison.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 13:57 Comments ||
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#8
Mebbe he wants to establish a mosque at Auschwitz to honor the memory of the often slighted but seldom appreciated and hard working Nazi SS Concentration Camp guards...
____________________________borgboy in the subjunctive
#10
To Rafael: I am from Poland. I am as far from sypathising with Leppers views as one can be. Still I think that your post shows that you do not have a free mind and that you are under strong influence of nationalist propaganda. Just like Lepper.
Try to think and reason. If you long for more respect from polish people just be less nationalist.But I guess you do not, since you think of them low in general only because of their nationality.Open your mind and open your eyes.
From the German news agency DPA, by way of The Wall Street Journal:
Germany, which joined France in an unsuccessful effort to keep Saddam Hussein in power, is part of the American-led coalition in Afghanistan. But it?s still hard to tell whose side Berlin is on. Get a load of this report from the German news agency DPA:
Military lawyers have advised German elite soldiers in Afghanistan not to take prisoners to avoid having to turn them over to US forces, Der Spiegel magazine reported.
In its latest issue, the Hamburg-based weekly cited military lawyers as saying that there were "too many open questions" about the Americans? treatment of prisoners, a view now seen as being confirmed in the wake of the revelations of prisoner abuse in Iraq.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/21/2004 12:29:01 AM ||
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#1
joined France in an unsuccessful effort to keep Saddam Hussein in power
LOL. Hilarious.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 2:24 Comments ||
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#2
does this "take no prisoners" edict mean the german soldiers will capture the jihadis and place them in ovens on the spot in keeping with their historical traditions
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
05/21/2004 2:33 Comments ||
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#3
No, this is the new and improved German army. They try not to kill anyone.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 2:43 Comments ||
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#4
So if I was in the German Army, I would just capture they jihadis shooting at me, count four Mississippi's and let them go? Just issue them paint ball guns and get it over with.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 4:31 Comments ||
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#5
I never thought I'd say this in a million years but bring back The Wehrmacht a la 39-45 - any help appreciated and all that. I'd like to have seen what the SS would have done with Fallujah.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/21/2004 4:42 Comments ||
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#6
Howard, SS would treat Fallujah as they did that town that no longer exists in Czech - down to the last cobblestone.
#10
So what do they advise?
-Letting them go so they can continue to kill others?
-Giving them to the Afghans, who will no doubt treat them soooo much better?
-Just shooting them so the poor Jihadi murderers don't have to endure being humiliated with sanitary napkins on their heads?
#11
It does seem a problem when one power can't trust its allies to treat prisoners humanely.
One solution is to hand over jurisdiction over what prisons exist in Afghanistan to Germany. And have no prisoner transferred to Gitmo instead ofcourse.
"Just shooting them so the poor Jihadi murderers don't have to endure being humiliated with sanitary napkins on their heads?"
So they won't have to be raped or sodomized with phosphoric lights either. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A43783-2004May20?language=printer
#12
Fuck you Aris. Let me point something out to you: the people who did the abusing are being prosecuted. Is that not enough for you?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 12:37 Comments ||
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#13
Enough for what? It's enough for me to trust that *if* it happens agains, and *if* it is known and (even more so) photographed, then the people involved will be again prosecuted.
But enough for me to trust it won't happen again by other people? Enough for the German army to trust that? Enough for me to trust it may not still be happening by prison officers that are a bit more careful not to take photographs of their crimes?
No, it's not enough. I, ofcourse, don't know what kind of system the German army has to check and stop such abuses of power. Perhaps it's even more ineffective than the American army's system -- but so far it has atleast not been proven so. All the more reason to allow Red Cross surprise inspections and stuff like that in every detention facility.
So, when you ask "Is that not enough for you?" you'll also have to specify enough for what.
#16
Aris: No one cares about abuses of power in the German army or any army other than the US army, because the purpose of all the focus on Abu Ghraib has nothing to do with actually caring about abuses.
#17
One solution is to hand over jurisdiction over what prisons exist in Afghanistan to Germany.
Uh-huh. Anyone ready to hold up Germany as the model of modern day jurisprudence? Before you answer--what sentence did the murderer/cannibal from Germany get? 8 1/2 years. There is no such thing as guilt in Germany. It's Stuart Smalley land.
#18
"joined France in an unsuccessful effort to keep Saddam Hussein in power"
This btw is not a sentence I would expect from the WSJ. I have yet to meet a German who wanted to "keep Saddam in power". That includes Schroeder. Germany was against a war to achieve that.
They could as well argue that Germany wants to keep Bush in power because the Bundeswehr doesn't invade Washington to oust him.
#21
Sorry Rafael, that's a flawed argument. And there are at least ten dictators the U.S. do not intend to oust just yet by waging war. Do you see this as an "effort to keep them in power"?
What about Kimmie? I bet you don't see an "eefort to keep him in power" because U.S. troops from South Korea are transferred to Iraq, right?
#22
Do you see this as an "effort to keep them in power"?
If Americans actively opposed Japan's efforts to forcibly remove Kimmie, as an example, then yes, I would say Americans are exerting effort to keep him in power.
Unless you are denying that Germany played an active role in trying to stop the war. In which case we have no argument.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 15:47 Comments ||
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#23
No I think your argument is still flawed. If Japan decided to forcibly remove Kimmie (and risking a nuclear conflict by that) and the U.S. tried to stop Japan, that wouldn't imply that the U.S. want Kimmie to remain in power. It's just a disagreement about the measures and risks involved.
How about the U.S. backing the "One China Policy"? Does that mean that the U.S. betray the only Chinese democracy that exists up to now? No, it's just realpolitik at work.
You know I have not defended the position of the German government. But let's assume the German government was concerned that its friend, the United States, was committing a grave mistake, it seems ok to me to do more than just say "I don't agree".
If you have a friend who is about to get into a car drunk, you don't say, "hey you shouldn't drive". You snatch his keys and call a taxi.
The motives of Schroeder were probably less honorable. But I will not accept the notion that Germany made an "effort to keep Saddam in power". Looking at the latest Bush ratings you could say that "Germany made an effort to keep Bush in power". Ok, you got the joke, I guess.
Would you accept a compromise of "Opposed the effort by the US to oust Saddam Hussein from power by military means, in order to give the US a black eye ?"
It might reflect the situation a bit more, but I certainly reject any assertion Germany had honorable motives. (such as is implied with the drunk friends and car keys analogy)
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
05/21/2004 16:26 Comments ||
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#25
Carl, I think your example fits France closer than Germany.
The major reason for Schroeder was popularism: War was impopular, opposing it helped him win the election, and since he had destroyed most bridges behind him he didn't have much leverage when France started its anti-American game.
But Schroeder didn't make an effort to keep Saddam in power (He had little interest in that, the German stakes in Iraq were low.) And unlike France Germany never had any reason for wanting the United States to fail.
Even Schroeder understood that a US failure in Iraq would have catastrophic consequences for Europe. The French government found the American black eye more interesting.
#26
concerned that its friend, the United States, was committing a grave mistake
Call me a cynic, but it would be easier to digest if you simply relied on the argument of self-interest: "Germany didn't support the war for fear of terrorist attacks on its home territory (the EU)", or the more probable, "our economy might hit the proverbial fan".
It's well and good to disagree about measures and risks, but first you must have some alternative measures to speak of. Status quo was not acceptable in the wake of 9-11. Surely Europe must've realized that? If not, then they missed the ball. Instead they decided to stick their foot out while the US was doing the 100m dash.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 16:41 Comments ||
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#27
TGA, it is easy to understand that you outraged by the "oven" slur and you've made your point about loving Sadaam v/s fighting to rid him.
Soo...you are outraged by one individual's slur on a blog re: the ovens, but you are ok with a Government santioned slur of our entire army, based on the actions of a few who were already under investigation for misdeeds when the story broke.
So unless you believe that we can't find 8 or so individuals in your country that would beat up some prisoners in a war zone, maybe you should get a mirror and think twice about who should really be most offended.
Posted by: B ||
05/21/2004 16:42 Comments ||
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#28
So unless you believe that we can't find 8 or so individuals in your country
#29
B where have I said that I am ok with the German government? I guess most Rantburgers know that I'm not.
But when it comes to war Germans are burnt. That explains the caution that may in this case be exaggerated. Yet German soldiers are subject to the ICC, so maybe don't be too fast to blame them. Given the fact the British lefties already dream about hauling Blair before the ICC does not exactly lift morale.
And people turned over to Americans have a tendency to disappear for a long time without anyone knowing what happens to them.
"We didn't know" was not an excuse for the ovens, if memory serves me right. Assuming that America is ALWAYS right, no questions asked, isn't either. "Trust, but verify", who said that again?
Rafael, I was just refuting your logic, not defending Schroeder. At least the urgency of invasion can be a matter of debate. Even Tony Blair conceded that. Saddam may have become a danger in a few years, in 2003 the danger he posed was very limited. The war was a strategic decision, not one taken to avert an imminent threat to the U.S.
And strategies are ALWAYS a matter of debate.
#31
OIF was undertaken, for one reason, because Iraq was a growing threat and needed to be taken care of, with its WMDs and Islamist dictator, BEFORE it became an imminent threat.
Check President Bush's SOTU for the wording.
Blair had no problem with invading Iraq either.
Check his speeches--I have NEVER heard him "concede" that Iraq wasn't a growing threat that had to be taken care of.
And the Nazis didn't treat their POWs too well either.
I imagine our soldiers had a motto: "Don't get taken prisoner."
What is offensive here is that Germans are presupposing that we mistreat prisoners, branding us as Guilty before anything's been proven.
I'll bet Germany's not too happy with the US refusal to join the ICC, either.
Too bad--Schade.
This is just another excuse for the Weasel Powers--who were happily and enrichingly in bed with Saddam--to drive in the international knife again and make America look like the "bad guys."
Pure and simple.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 17:17 Comments ||
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#32
Addendum: Hasn't the Left used that "Bush said 'imminent threat' lie just about enough?!?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 17:21 Comments ||
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#33
And people turned over to Americans have a tendency to disappear for a long time without anyone knowing what happens to them.
So you're seriously entertaining the idea that abuse is widespread in American prisons?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 17:28 Comments ||
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#34
And people turned over to Americans have a tendency to disappear for a long time without anyone knowing what happens to them.
Yeah - TGA Think about this -
Try having restraint when one has images of fully fueled jets flying into tall building killing 3000 people.
Try to have sympathy for the "disappeard" who may have had something to do with that albeit proiferally or other ambushes of soldiers.
Try to have sympathy for some yokels in a Baghdad prison who were involved in the insurgency, then abuse gets proven only due to some radish-brained MP who has a digital camera. A plague on everyone there.
Look - Whatever Germans past - And they must not forget the evil of 1933-1945 - But they must not dwell on it. This is the 21st century.
My Grandfather immigrated from Germany. His cousins did not. After his death, letters were discovered with photos of his cousin in a Luftwaffe uniform in 1937. The contortions of my Father and aunt trying to expalain the photo to me and their embarassment I never forgotten. Germany made a shattering choice for evil in 1933, but the growth they had achieved since 1945 took gigantic backsteps with the intrangisence on Iraq last year.
Roadblocks put up especially by France and Germany delayed our effort in Iraq making things more complicated.
#35
Rafael, this is something I don't know. We haven't had photos out of Bagram, Gitmo, Diego Garcia yet. I certainly hope that abuse is not widespread.
But the German reluctance isn't so much explained with possible abuse but the doubtful legal status those captives enjoy. The U.S. has said that the Geneva Conventions don't apply to those captured in Afghanistan. This is a much easier position to defend if you are immune to ICC prosecutions. The German soldiers are not. You might want to read the sentence in question again: "Military lawyers have advised German elite soldiers in Afghanistan not to take prisoners to avoid having to turn them over to US forces." Nowhere is it said that this is an order of the German government. It's a lawyers duty to advise his client of any posible legal problem that may arise. You can hardly qualify the Bundeswehr as "anti-American".
Well Jen, I did not say that. Blair conceded that people arguing against the war had valid points (not that he shared them). The Bush administration has never even entertained the idea that people arguing against the war could have valid points.
Jen if you don't understand the difference between Nazis and Germany of 2004, there is little to argue.
And Rafael, I'm not entertaining any idea about abuse. I just say that I don't know. The German troops who hand over suspects to the Americans do not know what happens to them after that. And this has the military lawyers worried. Those lawyers are just doing their job.
#36
You're right--TGA. I probably don't understand the difference between Nazis and Germans today.
Is there a difference?
To change from the biggest warmongers, killers and Jew haters that the world has ever seen to the most "pacifist," craven and whiny welfare junkies (although Hitler did nationalize everything) is quite a trick.
But the fact still remains that there is deep hatred for America--because of our support of Israel and for beating them in WWII--which surfaces, as here, as contempt, arrogance and moral superiority.
No matter how much "change" has occurred in the Weasel Powers' psyche, they have no cause to take the "moral high ground" and certainly not in the present case.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 17:54 Comments ||
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#37
BigEd, restraint yes, sympathies not, and you know that.
In 1946 the Allies were able to try the German Nazis without resorting to Gitmo or Bagram measures. The Jews did not torture Eichmann when they tried him. And those Nazis had killed a thousand times more people than the 9/11 terrorists.
And yes, BigEd, I have looked my torturers in the eyes, too. And still, I always wanted them to be tried according to the law and nothing but the law. "Extralegal" solutions will hurt ourselves in the end. Once you open the floodgates, there is no stopping.
That's something Simon Wiesenthal was always aware of. And I admire him for his restraint. It must have been painful for him, too. And still is.
#39
TGA is right about the jeopardy created by Tranzi institutions. Also bear in mind that it was American strategy to demilitarize both the German and Japanese cultures after WW2. A strategy supported by France, Russia and China, but opposed by the British.
To a significant degree the USA is reaping what it has sown with Germany and Japan.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/21/2004 18:05 Comments ||
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#40
"In 1946 the Allies were able to try the German Nazis without resorting to Gitmo or Bagram measures."--
There are no proven "measures" to which you allude that I can discuss with you IRT this thread.
The Nazis convicted at Nuremberg were hung, which would be as opposed today by suddenly squeamish Germans as any other U.S. "measures."
And it's funny how many Germans "lost" their Nazi uniforms and party membership cards once the Allied soldiers got there.
There weren't that many Nazis left to try when we got around to trials. "The Jews did not torture Eichmann when they tried him."
Whoa! Quick switch there! Are you sure?
Again, Israel was resented for going to South America to hunt Eichmann down and also for putting him on trial and executing him, too for those same ICC-like reasons. "And those Nazis had killed a thousand times more people than the 9/11 terrorists."--
Moral equivalence proving what?
That both Nazism and IslamoFascism are evil and wrong?
I'll go with that.
Whether it's one murder like Nick Berg's or 6 million, it's still a "hate crime" against humanity and should be punished as such.
The so-called "abuses" at Abu Ghraib are under investigation and are subject to military discipline, whereas Nazi soldiers never had to answer personally, each and every one of them (not just the Nazi officers and High Command) for the torture and murder of POWs ever. To this day they haven't had to answer.
Given your name of True German Ally, the question has to come:
If you're truly our ally, then why would you endorse the obstruction of American soldiers handling enemy detainees?
The countries of "Old Europe" need to decide if the USA is indeed an ally or an enemy.
(And I don't care for the Israelis being called 'the Jews," thank you.)
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 18:09 Comments ||
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#41
It's very hard to discuss with someone who deliberately misreads my posts.
I have not "endorsed" anything, I said the lawyers are doing their job.
And I don't know what goes on in Gitmo and you don't know. The point is, the German soldiers don't know either, yet the captives they hand over might end up there. And the uncertainity about their legal status under U.S. captivity has German military lawyers worried.
When those released British inmates gave their story we thought that they were talking nonsense. Given the fact that quite "outlandish" things happened in Abu Ghraib it should at least be allowed to wonder. Would we have believed the tales of any Abu Ghraib inmate without those photos?
About Eichmann, yes I'm quite sure. He received a fair trial. The Israelis had every reason not to torture him. And come on now, your remark about me using the word "Jew" instead of Israelis is ridiculous. The Simon Wiesenthal Institute is located in Vienna and not run by Israeli nationals only. I have had quite a few conversations with Simon Wiesenthal and despite all setbacks his "legalistic approach" suffered he still believes in it. Rightfully so.
Crimes have to be punished, whether they are "hate crimes" or not: If you create incertainties about proper legal procedures when it comes to terrorists, you open a door. Where do you stop? Insurgents? Presumed insurgents? People rounded up in a razzia? And why stop here? Isn't a child rapist as despicable as a hate crime killer? How about a drug dealer caught in the "War against Drugs"?
It's interesting that you put "abuses" in Abu Ghraib in scare quotes btw. "So-called abuses?" Really? What would YOU call them? Fraternity pranks?
#42
TGA - I respect you and your opinions. I don't know about your ICC argument - but if you say so.
However, I am deeply offended by your comments about the prisoners just disappearing as if our army, as a whole, can be characterized by the very few at AG who were clearly "out of control".
Jeesh... If you want to dish out such broad bigotry, fine. But don't be surprised when others fire back the same sort of bigotry in your direction.
Posted by: B ||
05/21/2004 18:41 Comments ||
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#43
TGA - the ICC doesn't apply, but the Geneva accords certainly do, and those fighting without uniform, using human shields and fighting from religious places are not covered - no legal reason not to kill them on the spot. Anything else, like leaving them alive to be humiliated by wearing women's underwear on their head is gravy. I agree with you, let's avoid the possibility that they will be humiliated. Interrogate them and kill them one after another.
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 18:44 Comments ||
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#44
You know TGA...I just reread the post that you wrote while I was posting this and it really pisses me off. So ..I'm going to add to my post above the following thought...
Perhaps the reason that Germans are so quick to say "we don't know what's going on in there" may have more to do with your own country's past, than with our own.
Posted by: B ||
05/21/2004 18:45 Comments ||
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#45
B I'm not talking abou Abu Ghraib here.
Do you know where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is right now? Or has been for the last 12 months?
Why can't we know? What's his legal status? This may not something that has you and me worried. A military lawyer has to worry about this if his client may end up before the ICC because he didn't ask.
"Just trust us" isn't good enough.
We also know that quite a few captured presumed terrorists have been sent to Syria, Jordan or Egypt to be "questioned" there. Don't ask, don't tell.
But if I were a German soldier handing over somebody to U.S. authorities I would want to know. Especially because there were times when Germans didn't want to know. Please don't call that anti-Americanism. And please don't question my high respect for the American military.
But I will say that the Abu Ghraib pictures have saddened me. Exactly because I do NOT expect such a behaviour from Americans. And that's a feeling I share with most honorable Americans.
#46
Exactly because I do NOT expect such a behaviour from Americans. And that's a feeling I share with most honorable Americans.
We certainly agree on that. Look, I'm not competent to get into the ICC argument - so if that's true then fine - but that's not how it's being presented by OUR press - nor in yours. It's all propaganda to weaken our will and I'm sorry to see you buying into it.
As for them "disappearing for a long time", did it ever occur to you that if we just wanted to tighten the thumbscrews and beat it out of them - maybe we wouldn't need to keep them for such a long time.
Posted by: B ||
05/21/2004 19:01 Comments ||
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#47
Do you know where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is right now? Or has been for the last 12 months?
Who knows? We may have gone all the way with him. No not kill him, but . . .
Remember after 9/11 some folks suggested that when we captured bin-Laden we give him a sex-change and make him wear a burka?
#48
B Can you tell me why German military lawyers (and they are the only ones in question) should have an interest to disseminate anti American propaganda?
As for the thumsbscrews... please, the Soviets already had more advanced techniques in 1946.
#49
"Do you know where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is right now? Or has been for the last 12 months?"
No. Nor do I care.
I know he's in U.S. hands hopefully being interrogated and telling us everything he knows about Al Queda and any planned terrorist attacks. 'Why can't we know? What's his legal status? This may not something that has you and me worried."
His legal status is Enemy of America.
He became such when he joined an organization that declared war on and attacked America. " A military lawyer has to worry about this if his client may end up before the ICC because he didn't ask."
We don't have to worry about the ICC because the United States will never be a party to the ICC for reasons explained here many times.
There is no such animal (sorry Mucky!) as "international law."
We like our system of criminal justice, which KSS isn't privileged to enjoy not being an American citizen. '"Just trust us" isn't good enough."
Actually, if you're truly our ally, it should be. 'We also know that quite a few captured presumed terrorists have been sent to Syria, Jordan or Egypt to be "questioned" there. Don't ask, don't tell."
No, I don't know this and I don't know where you're getting this information. But if I were a German soldier handing over somebody to U.S. authorities I would want to know.
A soldier is supposed to obey orders, not questions why.
This goes double for Germans who used to value Orders and military discipline.
Does this mean that this German policy of stabbing American authority in the back goes all the way up the chain of command? "Especially because there were times when Germans didn't want to know. Please don't call that anti-Americanism."
There's a saying, TGA--"He who has the gold makes the rules.
That would be America, who has the gold, the guns and the leadership here. " And please don't question my high respect for the American military."
Why not, when it's this German policy which is calling the integrity of American soldiers--all 2 million of them--into account? "But I will say that the Abu Ghraib pictures have saddened me."
Sorry--"Saddened" doesn't cut it as an excuse to change Allied treatment of War detainees. "Exactly because I do NOT expect such a behaviour from Americans."
If you didn't and Germans as a whole don't, then we shouldn't be having this problem in the battlefied. And that's a feeling I share with most honorable Americans."
Oh, yeah--when in doubt, make it a matter of "honor" as if those of us who resent this behavior on the part of the Germans and see no reason why the bad behavior of 7 soldiers "nullifies" the whole American war effort, which you brought into it in your comments above ( You said, "After all, it wasn't a war to get rid of an imminent threat, but a 'strategic' war of Bush's.")
So basically, is the German position "Bush lied. America and her soldiers suck. Disobey them in the theatre of war at will, to the point where any bad guys caught in combat are really "good guys" who should be let go?"
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 19:16 Comments ||
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#50
Correction: I meant to say,
Oh, yeah--when in doubt, make it a matter of "honor" as if those of us who resent this behavior on the part of the Germans and see no reason why the bad behavior of 7 soldiers "nullifies" the whole American war effort..have no honor, which you brought into it in your comments above.
The motto of our servicemen and women is DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY.
It is our honor, and that of our soldiers, and precisely our honor that is being called into question by this scorn of Allied enemy detainee policies.
If Germany were a person, America should challenge them to a duel.
Oh, wait! We already did that in WWI and WWII and we won.
We kept the Soviet hordes from you for 50 years, had these same "abusive" troops on your soil for that long, too and conducted 2 airlifts to keep Germany free, but our soldiers are "pigs" who should be distrusted...
And we just helped you clean up that Kosovo mess in the last decade, too.
Guess those troops were "abusive pigs," too?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 19:27 Comments ||
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#51
TGA, I'm not going to be deflected by your Aris-like move of latching onto trivia to obscure the obvious ....so just forget the lawyers, forget the propaganda.
Jen said it best: Why not, when it's this German policy which is calling the integrity of American soldiers--all 2 million of them--into account?
Despite what you read in the media, our public understands that the actions of the few at AG are not representative of our countrymen. We know because the majority of our soldiers are our friends and neighbors - we know what they are like.
The German's willingness to so eagerly accept the premise that "we don't know what's going on in there" really says more about your country's recent past than it does about the American people.
I'm done with this discussion and I remain offended by your comments.
Posted by: B ||
05/21/2004 19:32 Comments ||
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#52
I think TGA just made the best possible argument for staying away from things like the ICC bullshit.
To go out on a limb here, I will predict that the next European excuse for not "helping" the US in the WoT, or any other military conflict, will be based on the abuse at Abu G. This is not going to go away I'm afraid.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 19:35 Comments ||
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#53
Allow me another prediction... Michael Moore's future film Underground Torture Chambers At Gitmo opens to standing ovations all across Europe.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 19:40 Comments ||
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#54
Jen, the ICC is of no concern to you, but it is to a German soldier. That's the difference.
A German soldier handing over a prisoner knowing or suspecting that this prisoner could be tortured or be denied the rights of the Geneva Conventions commits a crime which can land him before the ICC. "Illegal combattant" or "Enemy of America" doesn't cut it for a German, sorry. These are not acceptable legal definitions. "Prisoner of WAr" is. "Suspected Criminal" is. Both enjoy rights and legal protection. You might not care and be happy with the exemptions you made up for yourself but the military lawyers say the German soldier should care. You might also note that even your closest ally wants his citizens out of Gitmo. Not because the UK loves its Gitmo inmates so much, I guess.
The soldiers of the modern German Bundeswehr have been encouraged to NOT blindly following orders when they think they are against the law. This is exactly what sets them apart from the Wehrmacht. We call our soldiers "citizen in uniform". If any superior gave orders to abuse inmates in Abu Ghraib the soldier in question should and actually is obliged to refuse that order. Read up on your own military code. The Geneva Conventions do apply to the inmates of Abu Ghraib, not even the U.S. government, Justice Department or military say otherwise. Any order that violates these conventions MUST not be obeyed. Abu Ghraib was not the deed of 7 rotten apples.
And no, blind trust is no good advice for an ally. It's no good advice for anyone. Lack of control led to the abuses of Abu Ghraib. The only person I blindly trust is my wife (and still I check the credit card receipts)!
Nobody has challenged the integrity of 2 million American soldiers: what is questioned is the legal no man's land concerning those prisoners the Germans hand over. Do you think the German troops are happy about this? Why would they be on America's side in Afghanistan in the first place?
Sorry Jen, America can't make up the rules as it goes along and change them at will. America signed and ratified international treaties and conventions: Pacta sunt servanda.
Yes it was a strategic war. Most Pentagon experts would agree with that. I haven't said that it was a wrong strategy. Strategic decisions are not always understood by everyone in time. Which was the first country the U.S. invaded in WW2?
If we went by threat urgency only, North Korea and Iran would come first, don't you think?
#56
A German soldier handing over a prisoner knowing or suspecting that this prisoner could be tortured or be denied the rights of the Geneva Conventions commits a crime which can land him before the ICC.
This is absurd. If that is the case, then that pretty much cripples the effectiveness of the modern German soldier on the battlefield. In effect the soldier can't fight at all, in fear he will commit a crime.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 20:20 Comments ||
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#57
Bottom line is that your leadership sold you down the river with the ICC. If I were a soldier in a country belonging to the ICC - I'd get out. There is virtually no way that your soldiers can fight a war without the threat of later being convicted for a war crime regardless of whether or not they believed it to be the best right course of action at that time. Accidently shoot a civilian??? Life in jail for you. You should have KNOWN BETTER!
Maybe if France and Germany or other ICC members fight each other they can line up, Napolean style, and be sure that their actions aren't subject to future war crimes trials. But since it is the Islamists and terrorists who you will be fighting in the forseeable future, it looks like your soldiers are subject to future prosecution each and every time the enemy holds up a human shield or runs into a mosque.
#58
Well in America you can be sued for selling a coffee too hot.
Still McDonalds and Starbucks are doing a brisk trade.
As for following orders, you might want to read THIS
#60
A German soldier handing over a prisoner knowing or suspecting that this prisoner could be tortured or be denied the rights of the Geneva Conventions commits a crime which can land him before the ICC.
One last, final comment on this: Supposedly a German prosecutor would have to prove first that a captive had been abused/tortured, before getting a German soldier in trouble. In light of this, didn't the German military lawyers over react in this article? I think that's what offends our American friends on RB. People, including American soldiers (or the entire army), are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Even Aris can agree on that. We have the accusations, now let's have the investigations and prosecutions, if need be.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 21:24 Comments ||
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#61
Looks like the Zenster handed TGA the pork chop.
McDonald's was targeted in bomb plots Thursday in Turkey and Italy, with a small bomb damaging cars in a parking lot in Istanbul and firefighters defusing two explosives outside an outlet in Rome. In Istanbul, police said they received a warning call minutes before the blast. One car was destroyed and several others were damaged, but there were no injuries, official said. Leftist groups in Turkey have targeted McDonald's restaurants in the past. The bombs in Rome were hidden in suitcases along with a banner carrying a five-pointed red star _ a trademark signature of the radical leftist Red Brigades group, police said. No one was hurt. Leonardo Alestra of the Rome police said the bombs were made from explosive powder and cans containing petrol and were unlikely to have caused serious damage. He said there has been no claim of responsibility. Inside one of the suitcases was a banner that carried the star sign and read "Sabotage against Imperialism and War." The Red Brigades plagued Italy in the 1970s and 1980s, carrying out a series of high-profile attacks.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2004 12:24:15 AM ||
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#1
Police are searching for this man in connection with today's blasts:
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/21/2004 8:25 Comments ||
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#2
Dammit, Howard, I got Mountain Dew all over my keyboard! Don't DO that!
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 9:41 Comments ||
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#3
Mountain Dew for breakfast? Not a lot of vitamin C there, Doc. You know, minimum daily requirements and all.
Posted by: Mike ||
05/21/2004 9:51 Comments ||
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#4
*Shrugs*. Gets me up in the morning, and I never developed a taste for coffee - though I've been toying with the idea of trying it lately. I blame my dad for introducing me to it. And college life hasn't helped. But my girlfriend tries to make me eat plenty of fruit and such.
On a unrelated note, since this is actually my first long-term relationship, I've a question to pose to you all: last night I choked down steamed broccoli just for her (though at the moment she's up in New York). It was something of a traumatic experience (definitely not one of my favorite vegetables, but alas, there was nothing else in the house). Is any woman worth all that agony?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 9:59 Comments ||
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#5
Rabble rabble!
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 10:00 Comments ||
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#6
I'm afraid so, Doctor. I've had to force down raw chicken and cuisine on a par with cat food in the past just to get 'my oats' on a permanent basis. The things we menfolk endure...
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/21/2004 10:12 Comments ||
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#10
See if you can compromise by drowning the stuff in cheddar cheese sauce.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey ||
05/21/2004 10:15 Comments ||
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#11
Taking lots of Otrivine⢠cold-remedy cauterizes the taste buds for up to three months at a time - can be partic useful in a long term relationship.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/21/2004 10:21 Comments ||
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#12
Doc when I met my bride (24 years ago) I choked down Chinese stir fry. I loathed it at the time but I found out after time that I like both! ;-)
#14
Doc, when you find a woman who is worth chocking down evil food, marry her, because no matter who you marry she is gonna make you do that kinda stuff repeatedly. I my case she is still worth it 22 years later.
Posted by: David ||
05/21/2004 11:28 Comments ||
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#16
I knew that Rantburg was many things, but to be honest I never expected that I'd be getting relationship tips as well. It's brought a smile to my face. Thanks, all!
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 12:34 Comments ||
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#17
I still ain't figgered out how to put a picture in a comment. I asked muck4doo but he don't know either. When a Mcdinalds was buit on land where some nice houses were demolished next to the campus at Auburn University somebody tied a note to a brick and threw it through the window. The note sai "you deserve a brick today".
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
05/21/2004 13:05 Comments ||
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#18
Doc - My 2 cents : 9 years ago I ate something call Vinigrette, A odd Russian concoction with beets. Gradually I had to eat less vinigrete, but I do like the homemade pelimini (Like Ravioli with Sour Cream), and genuine Borsht (also with beets) is very good. I am still with the lady.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
05/21/2004 15:17 Comments ||
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#25
Bottom line Doc - You see Russian Women, English Women, Puerto Rican Women, American Women - They all look out for us. Make it permanent, and eat your broccoli.
#28
ALL>DOC's Girlfriend here- I happen to like broccoli, and I don't understand why the DOC doesn't. But I'll content myself with him eating celery; slightly more palatable.
Posted by: Romana ||
05/22/2004 18:30 Comments ||
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#29
Dear Doc: This is your lady's Mama, up in central New York... I don't really LOVE broccoli, either, unless it is stir-fried oriental style. I do have news for you, though: I was very glad to hear that someone finally blew up a MacDonald's somewhere, at least. Those old Mickey D's knock off thousands of people every year! (Yup, the broccoli kick comes from me, the health nut. Sorry!) :-) :-)
Posted by: Big Mama ||
05/22/2004 18:37 Comments ||
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#31
"I was very glad to hear that someone finally blew up a MacDonald's somewhere, at least."
Well, Big Mama, you got the nut part right, anyway. McD's knock off "thousands" of people every year. Right. When people start blowing up "health" food stores, will you be as happy / giggly? Does anyone know if eating broccoli raises their IQ? How about if you shove it... oh, nevermind.
France deported an Islamic mosque leader Thursday who was accused of leading a group that advocates terrorism, the Interior Ministry said. The expulsion of Midhat Guler is part of a growing French crackdown against radical Muslim clerics. Guler, a Turkish national, was taken out of France by plane, but the ministry did not indicate what the destination was. "This expulsion is motivated by the threat that this person represented to the public order," the ministry said in a statement. "Mr. Guler is in fact a leader in France of a Turkish Islamic extremist movement called 'Kaplan' that preaches use of violence and terrorism." The ministry statement was an apparent reference to a group that calls for establishing an Islamic state in Turkey as a breeding ground for Islamic terrorists.
Guler, 45, was the leader of a mosque near the Bastille area of eastern Paris, the ministry said. He has lived in France for 28 years and has five children. The French government has pledged to deport those who preach Islamic fundamentalism. But it suffered an embarrassment last month when it expelled an Algerian Muslim prayer leader, Abdelkader Bouziane, who condoned wife-beating and allegedly made calls to violence. Days after Bouziane was put on a plane to Algiers, a court ruled the deportation was unwarranted and said he could return to France.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2004 12:21:30 AM ||
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#1
hmm. perhaps he got a one way trip to the mid atlantic?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 4:32 Comments ||
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#3
wow!!! if france keeps this up i might actually begin to respect them, a little. from all i have heard of france i expected them to hold a referendum on changes this government to an islamic republic.
#4
Give them time, Brad; the Islamic community hasn't protested this "racist and unfair" decision yet.
Still, if France wants to start deporting terrorists, they're gonna need a whole fleet of planes . . . and a lot of mosques are going to be without a resident hate-spewing terrorist-supporting anti-Western Islamic bastard humble imam to give the Friday sermons . . .
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 10:02 Comments ||
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#5
France shouldn't be making these UNILATERAL decisions. Shame on them for not going to the UN.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 10:14 Comments ||
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#6
Man, these guys are slipping badly. They even left out the part about this being some form of "humiliation." Here's hoping the b@stard went out feet first.
My son, Nick, was my teacher and my hero. He was the kindest, gentlest man I know; no, the kindest, gentlest human being I have ever known. He quit the Boy Scouts of America because they wanted to teach him to fire a handgun. Nick, too, poured into me the strength I needed, and still need, to tell the world about him.
Sounds like things were pretty mixed up around the Berg family.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/21/2004 19:12 Comments ||
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#2
There is a line one crosses even if you give him space as a "grieving father". This moron has crossed it.
#3
crossed it? I'm sorry he ever procreated...what a zero.
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 19:14 Comments ||
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#4
Agreed, Ed. I sympathize for his loss, as I mourn for all the innocent dead, but to blame Bush for the actions of the Islamists is like blaming the supplier when some guy just took the last copy of a book I wanted at Borders. Or blaming the guy who shoots the burglar in self-defense when it was the burglar who broke into the house in the first place.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 19:15 Comments ||
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#5
Bush might not have looked int Nick Berg's eyes, but the bastards who sawed his head off surely did.
#9
The guy needs to be ignored. The media is just using him as a useful idiot. For whatever reason, Nick was in the wrong place at the wrong time. His death will serve as a graphic warning as to what type of people the civilized world is up against. I hope to God that we heed the warning and act upon it before agonizing deaths like Nick Berg's become commonplace in the West.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 19:32 Comments ||
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#10
The guy needs to be ignored. The media is just using him as a useful idiot. For whatever reason, Nick was in the wrong place at the wrong time. His death will serve as a graphic warning as to what type of people the civilized world is up against. I hope to God that we heed the warning and act upon it before agonizing deaths like Nick Berg's become commonplace in the West.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 19:32 Comments ||
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#11
I guess Daddy is going through the blame and anger phase all at the same time. Too bad the press wants to capitalize on his mourning.
Posted by: B ||
05/21/2004 19:34 Comments ||
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Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 19:43 Comments ||
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#14
John Walsh: America's Most Wanted - his son was kidnapped and killed - that was his motivation to do the show - unfortunately Father Berg doesn't have both feet in reality, and from appearances and anecdotes, never did
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 19:47 Comments ||
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#15
John Walsh's Son Adam (small child) was kidnapped and murdered. He wasn't too proportional, but at least he started a foundation, and with others has promoted the Amber Alert system.
#16
I think daddy Berg could justify this whole thing, in his own twisted mind, if he'd only look at Nick's death as a "post-natal" abortion.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
05/21/2004 20:02 Comments ||
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#17
The guy needs to be ignored. The media is just using him as a useful idiot. For whatever reason, Nick was in the wrong place at the wrong time. His death will serve as a graphic warning as to what type of people the civilized world is up against. I hope to God that we heed the warning and act upon it before agonizing deaths like Nick Berg's become commonplace in the West.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 20:19 Comments ||
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#18
An even sadder thing is Bush probably grieves more for his son than his disillusioned father who has hung his hat on International ANSWER as the solution to all of our problems.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
05/21/2004 20:56 Comments ||
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#19
I will forgive anything a Father says in expressing his grief in the loss of a son regardless of the circumstance. He is sadly and pathetically mistaken, but his pain is unbearable. I can't even fathom his pain, and hope that I never have to.
#20
He has public grace period, but has chosen to use it to further his political goals rather than address the obvious cause: Islamofascist killers. RULE #22: NO GRACE PERIOD FOR ASSHOLE STUPIDITY
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 21:39 Comments ||
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#21
Think if your son had his barbaric murder filmed to be shown to the whole world. Berg's father was a brainwashed liberal long before Nick Berg ever thought of departing for Iraq, according to the press. In the father's sadness he only knows one method of lashing out for the death of his son.
This is the same misguided tactic leftists used regarding Spetember 11th, blame Bush, not Atta and his band of high-jacking monsters.
A savage, cold blooded member of the Islamic death cult is the enemy, not the President.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/21/2004 22:19 Comments ||
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#22
Actually, only Nick Berg sent Nick Berg to Iraq. Seems like the Military offered to get him home again but he walked away. I suppose if Nick Berg had been run over by a taxicab in London or a rickshaw in Shanghai it would still be Bush's fault.
Dear Mr. Berg Senior, being an idiot is not the Administration's responsibility. Living alone in a warzone with no support or protection is idiotic.
Posted by: john ||
05/21/2004 22:30 Comments ||
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#23
This guy is being used, as AP and others point out. It's got to be truly terrible to have your child murdered, not to mention how it happened and becoming an automatic replay 2-3 hundred times a day. I feel sorry for the man - no matter how demented and foolish he may be. I'll reserve my thoughts of the kid. The dad is just about the saddest sack I guess I've ever heard of - in all respects.
#24
"He quit the Boy Scouts of America because they wanted to teach him to fire a handgun."
-maybe if he learned to use one he wouldn't of gotten his head chopped off. (I know, that was in poor taste)
-If something like that happened to my boy I'd prolly plant myself. (Right after I jumped a plane to Baghdad Intl, bought $2,500 worth of weapons at Abu's local black market and started whacking fuckers in Najaf.) But john's right, Nick Berg was a 26 year old man, old enough to be accountable for his actions. If he got offered a ride home or was told to amscray and decided against it - nothing we can do for him. May God rest is soul.
#25
Sorry for your loss Mr Berg, but you, sir, are a f**kwit.
"I am sure that the one who wielded the knife felt Nick's breath on his hand and knew that he had a real human being there. I am sure that the others looked into my son's eyes and got at least a glimmer of what the rest of the world sees."
They showed no more concern for him than does an exterminator show for roaches. IF anything, they actively hated him for what he was, and what he stood for.
No, they did nto see what you pretend and delude yourself into imagining, Mr Berg. They saw a Jew. A Khefir. And American, a capitalist who was proving thier backward culture wrong by making the country work. To them he was an enemy, a sub human beast who was less than cattle to him. And they slaughtered him without mercy, pity or even a second thought, as they are directed to do in the Koran and by their culture of Wahabbi Islamacism.
And now you participate furhter in the bloody ritual by splashing around in the blood of your son hoping you can splash some on the current administration. You are dishonoring your son and elevating his killers to make political points. You, sir, are disgusting, and undeserving of any pity the public may have had for you.
Shame on you Mr Berg - you are a vile wretch, and deserve the pain you are now inflicting on yourself. You've seen the last of your son, who is likely with the angels now - as you will surely rot in hell for your politicization of his death and elevation fo his killers.
#26
It's very likely that Mr. Berg, being a lifelong liberal asshole, raised his son on the standard pablum; "Never trust the military. They're your enemy". Which is probably why he didn't take them up on their offer of a ride home. "I'd rather walk, than be seen with you military jerks".
Mr. Berg is a punk....and the nut doesn't fall far from the tree.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
05/21/2004 23:59 Comments ||
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#27
If my son was killed in a media event--I agree with Jarhead--how can anyone say how they would react. I still wonder exactly what he was doing there--if I were Jewish--I wouldn't be wandering around any Arab country during these times
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/22/2004 0:06 Comments ||
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#28
I won't know what to think about think about until I read his opinion on what he thinks about his son's murderers. The media might have already asked him, but I refuse to follow this story. Any journalist that sticks a mike in front of this guy's face ought to be spanked thoroughly for lowering the over all sum total of human dignity. Let him stew in his own anguish and find his own road. May dad will figure it out and do something worthwhile with the rest of his life.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/22/2004 3:11 Comments ||
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Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 04:01 ||
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#1
Oh, that's ironic. The National Lawyers Guild has been a Communist front organization since before I was born. What did he expect? The hand on the puppet-strings is WWP these days rather than CP-USA, but it's still a puppet.
I wouldn't call this new conflict. Salon was full of articles complaining about WWP back when I actually read that virtual mag. There will be articles like this as long as there are Stalinists and Trotskyites, which is to say, organization men and ideological goats. Which is to say, forever and a day.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/21/2004 8:57 Comments ||
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#2
Ha! Utopian idealists finally get a clue that they were useful idiots for those who care little about Utopia.
I said it yesterday, and I'll keep repeating it, because it is true. The liberals..ie: Democrats, find themselves in the bizarre position of now being totally represented by the capitalistic bottom-feeders such as Michael Moore, Jerry Springer, Tinseltown... and the empty blow-up doll that represents the antithesis of what they once (long ago) stood for, John Kerry.
The Christian Gay Bashing Right looks downright angelic compared to how low the liberals have sunk...defending every blood drinking, mass raping, tyrant across the globe in order to justify their failed lives.
The young always say, "when I grow up, I'm not going to be like that". The liberals became all that ...and less.
I've got to credit this guy for at least having the courage to refuse to participate in applauding the wreckage these "well-meaning" folks have left strewn in their wake.
#3
Ng! Don't conflate liberals and organizations like the National Lawyers Guild! These guys aren't liberals, they're leftists! There's a good deal of airspace between even the left wing of the Democratic Party and real Marxists!
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/21/2004 10:58 Comments ||
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#4
There's a good deal of airspace between even the left wing of the Democratic Party and real Marxists!
Of course, you need a electron microscope to measure it.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 11:48 Comments ||
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#5
Mitch, the main difference between a liberal and a communist is that the communist knows what he is doing.
Posted by: Dan ||
05/21/2004 13:31 Comments ||
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#6
To those who questioned his characterizing of ANSWER as a front group for the WWP, Newman responded, "I've worked with the WWP in various coalitions. You may not know how front groups work, but when the website was created by, the office is run by, and the main spokespeople are all from a single group like the Workers World Party, it is fair to characterize the group as being derived from that group."
He added, "And as a member of the leadership of the National Lawyers Guild, which has endorsed ANSWER â against my vote â and who has key people doing their legal work, I know pretty well the role of the WWP in organizing this stuff. "
Well, this certainly explains the drivel being spewed about North Korea by the National Liars Lawyers Guild.
EFL
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi on Thursday sharply questioned President Bushâs competence as a leader, suggesting his policy in Iraq is to blame for the loss of U.S. lives...."The situation in Iraq and the reckless economic policies in the United States speak to one issue for me, and that is the competence of our leader," Pelosi said. "These policies are not working. But speaking specifically to Iraq, we have a situation where -- without adequate evidence -- we put our young people in harmâs way."
Asked specifically if she was calling Bush incompetent, Pelosi replied: "I believe that the presidentâs leadership in the actions taken in Iraq demonstrate an incompetence in terms of knowledge, judgment and experience in making the decisions that would have been necessary to truly accomplish the mission without the deaths to our troops and the cost to our taxpayers."...
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay blasted Pelosi, casting her comments as detrimental to U.S. troops. "Nancy Pelosi should apologize for her irresponsible, dangerous rhetoric," DeLay, R-Texas, said. "She apparently is so caught up in partisan hatred for President Bush that her words are putting American lives at risk." The Republican National Committee also released a written statement..."The San Francisco/Boston Democrats led by John Kerry have now adopted âBlame America Firstâ as their official policy," RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie said in the statement....
"His activities, his decisions, the results of his actions are what undermines his leadership, not my statement," Pelosi said. "My statements are just a statement of fact."... Why doesnât Pelosi ask the troops in Iraq what they think of Bushâs competence as a leader? Their opinion actually matters. Whatâs the acronym Iâm looking for...oh yes...STFU!.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 3:05:39 AM ||
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#1
"...demonstrate an incompetence in terms of knowledge, judgment and experience in making the decisions..."
Jack would say. "She can't handle the truth."
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 4:25 Comments ||
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#2
Take her at her word (please). She definitely knows incompetance first hand.
Posted by: Dorf ||
05/21/2004 6:24 Comments ||
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#3
"Pelosi said. "My statements are just a statement of fact."..."
It is an opinion. This shows how the future weeks will be handled by the Dims. More personal attacks on the CIC, in a time of war, which serve nothing but to divide the nation further and foster more hate. This election will not be close as many seem to fear. The public can see through this BS for waht it is. Despite the unprecedented liberal news bias, Soros funded campaign dollars, they will all have one thing less on November 3rd....less money.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
05/21/2004 7:52 Comments ||
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#4
I'm not so sure this wiil not be a close election. The democrat friends I talk with in Pittsburgh and some of them here are going to vote for John Kerry regardless of what he says or does. They want George Bush out so bad they don't stop to consider the repercussions of Kerry. What I here is "ANYBODY would be better than Bush", and "George Bush is lining his pockets with OUR oil money". They believe everything CBS, NBC, ABC, and CNN broadcast and tell me the situation in Iraq is "worse than Vietnam". Anything they see or read about Iraq they dismiss as Republican propaganda and is not to be believed. It is astounding to me that otherwise intelligent people can be duped so completely. The company I work for is doing more business now than we have in the past 5 years and we are hiring new people but they still say the President's economic policy is a disaster. When I ask them why they want to pay more in taxes under John Kerry they tell me "he's only going to increase taxes on the rich people". Right
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
05/21/2004 8:14 Comments ||
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#5
Mornin' Deacon, I think your friends need to be reminded that if they are truly against war, then Kerry is not their man. He openly admits that his strategy would be very similar to GWs, just more international and UN involvement such as Bosnia, Ruwanda, Somalia etc. State that for the hard core Give Peace A Chance (GPAC) crowd their only real candidate is Ralph Nader. Challenge them, "are you going to vote your conscience? or are you going to just going to follow the crowd and vote for a guy who was never really challenged during the primaries and who you do not truly know where he stands?"
#7
I have to ask myself who is the greater threat to the republic - al Qaeda or the Democratic Party. Both groups seemed to determine to inflict damage on the nation and jeopardize our troops.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
05/21/2004 11:20 Comments ||
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#8
Amen, DBD! I am becoming so radicalized that I often lose sight of the fact that half of the people have an IQ under 100...
#9
I live in California and every time Nancy opens her pie hole the state moves two steps to the right. Good thing because we are electing a NEW senator this year to help Bush whack the Dems in the Senate. BTW she represents San Francisco, not exactly Bush country. Was she one of the 48 Congressmen that told the Bishops to "Shut up"? Lot of Catholics out here would like to know that.
#16
remember: San Francisco propoted itself as "Baghdad by the Bay" (Herb Caen's phrase) until that became untenable....right before they started attacking the conduct at Abu Grahib.
SoCal (Orange, San Diego, Imperial, Riverside and San Berdoo Counties) is strongly conservative as are most non-metro-coastal areas
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 19:08 Comments ||
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#17
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi on Thursday sharply questioned President Bushâs competence as a leader,..
And I'm kinda wondering myself about the bitch's sanity...
#18
You can't really blame Nancy Pelosi for spouting truly tasteless, stupid, self-righteous propaganda. She represents the moonbats that live in the alternate reality that is San Francisco and unfortunately accurately reflects their beliefs and actions.The truly depressing and disgraceful element of this situation is that the national Democratic Party chose her to be their leader in the House of Representatives, one of the two top Democratic leaders in the country. What in God's name is wrong with these people?
#19
RWV--since you're questioning people's sanity--what were the Repugnants thinking when the put Tom DeLay--the evil troll in his position--you GOP turds just don't like it when the Democrats bark back and employ your own divisive tactics on the flip side
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/22/2004 0:12 Comments ||
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#20
Bullshit, NMM!
Tom Delay is a terrific Majority Whip!
And Nancy's a moron.
Typical Dims to choose the woman (Gotta be PC, doncha know?) who's a Botoxed idiot.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/22/2004 0:28 Comments ||
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WASHINGTON (AP) - Iraqis are ready to "take the training wheels off" and assume political power from the U.S.-led coalition, President Bush said Thursday as his administration began to roll out a rough plan for the June 30 transition of authority. Bush went to Capitol Hill to brief anxious Republican lawmakers, warning of more difficult days in Iraq even after the transfer of sovereignty.
"This has been a rough couple of months for the president, particularly on the issues of Iraq, and I think he was here to remind folks that we do have a policy and this policy is going to be tough," said Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa. "Things, as I think he commented, are very likely to get worse before they get better."
The president's visit was also meant to shore up the confidence of House and Senate Republicans who are getting ready to leave for their home states during the Memorial Day recess. Like Bush, most of the lawmakers face re-election, and many will face constituents jittery about Iraq. They said he defended his record on the economy, education and Medicare, all of which are targets for Democratic attacks.
Six weeks before the political handoff in Iraq, Bush consulted in the Oval Office with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Gen. John Abizaid, commander of American troops in the Middle East, and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Bush will spell out details of the Iraq handover in a series of speeches, beginning Monday at the Army War College at Carlisle Barracks, Pa.
'bout time. Take it to them, Dubya.
In remarks released by the White House on Thursday, Bush called the handover "a complete passage of sovereignty." He did not mention in the interview with Al Zaman newspaper, conducted Tuesday, that troops from the United States and other countries will be in Iraq indefinitely.
Which everyone except the village Democrat idiot already knows.
Offering a rough outline Thursday, Secretary of State Colin Powell said U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi was getting closer to designating the people who will serve in the new government. Brahimi has been working with Iraqis and with Robert Blackwill, an aide to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, to come up with acceptable names. "We hope that when he (Brahimi) brings forward this slate of officers, we can quickly move that slate to the Security Council, to Secretary-General (Kofi) Annan, for all of us to take a look at and examine the quality of these individuals and then laugh our asses off," Powell said.
But White House spokesman Scott McClellan said simply that Brahimi's candidates would be the people who take the reins of government. "I expect they will be the caretaker government," he said. "The people he puts forward, we believe will be good representatives of an interim caretaker government until such time the Iraqis can hold free, fair and open elections" in January, McClellan said.
Why not hold them now?
On Capitol Hill, Bush said he was "clearing through the muck" of criticism from Democrats who charge he went into Iraq with no strategy and still has none. Both the United States and Iraqis must shoulder the burden of stopping violence and shifting to democracy, he told them. "The United States will lead, or the world will shift into neutral," Bush said. The line drew nods of approval from his listeners.
Several lawmakers said Bush reiterated his determination to stick to a June 30 transfer date. "He talked about 'time to take the training wheels off,'" said Rep. Deborah Pryce, R-Ohio. "The Iraqi people have been in training, and now it's time for them to take the bike and go forward."
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/21/2004 12:07:42 AM ||
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#2
Whom do you suppose desires, and will work harder to foul this plan up in one way or the other - iraqi militants, al quaeda, Michael Moore or the Democrats the western media?
#3
Is there enough Bactine and Bandaids handy for for entire nation to toll off on their two-wheelers simultaneously. Make them wear helmets. They'll look stupid, but we can't tell how spastic they are.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 4:35 Comments ||
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#4
Now that we know that our one-time stalking horse, Chalabi, was an Iranian stooge, maybe things will work out. Who knows the depth of his double-dealing. Something was screwy there.
#5
Hey Big Ed--Chalabi was hand-picked by the Bushy-Rummy-Condi's--so who's bad is that? No taking responsibility by ANYONE in this Admin--EVER! Poor Colin Powell--with his moron son finally gainfully employed by his massa--has lost all credibility on the world stage by spouting lies and exaggerations to the UN--and make no mistake--they have been proven to be LIES
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/22/2004 0:17 Comments ||
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How come there is no mention of the Middle Eastern Men? My MP3 player dangling from my ear while jogging with clinched fist is going to get me pummeled by the authorityâs. Heck I am from European decent.
During WW2 we called them Krauts and Japs to take away the human aspect of the animals we are at war with. We have gotten way to PC. I do not pretend at who I should be "hating" during the time of war. Letâs take the gloves off already!! It should read "Point out Potential Islamo Fascists trying to kill Americans"
The FBI is warning law enforcement agencies to be on the alert for the possibility that suicide bombers may attempt to strike inside the United States. A lightly classified intelligence bulletin circulated Thursday to 18,000 U.S. law enforcement bodies is headlined "Possible suicide bomber indicators," and was distributed via the Bureauâs secure Law Enforcement Online (LEO) Intranet. It warns local badge-carriers to look for obvious signs of trouble â people wearing heavy, bulky jackets on warm days, smelling of chemicals, trailing wires from their jackets â as well, more subtle ones, such as tightly clenched fists. Someone who never shows his palms could be gripping a detonator rigged to go off when a button is released. "If you shoot him, you â re still not safe because his hands relax and the bomb explodes," says a counter-terrorism official. The FBI bulletin also notes that suicide bombers may disguise themselves in stolen military, police or firefighterâs garb, or even as pregnant women.
FBI sources say thereâs no hard intelligence warning of specific plans by terrorists to launch suicide attacks here like those wreaking havoc in Israel and Iraq. But, says one official, the circular was prompted by "a renewed concern" that fury at the U.S. for its occupation of Iraq or its support of Israel could move some extremists to attempt to bring the war to the American homeland. "At the end the day, itâs probably one of the simplest forms of attack, and itâs one of the hardest to detect," says one counter-terror veteran. In fact, U.S. analysts are at a loss to explain why the homeland has thus far escaped such attacks, since a number of extremist groups, particularly Hamas, have a sizeable presence here. One factor, officials say, is that terror leaders still regard America as a cash cow, and donât want to antagonize moderate Muslim donors. Another reason, says one specialist, may simply be that while there seems to be an endless supply of fanatical youths willing to die for the cause in the Middle East, most of them simply canât get visas to the U.S.
Posted by: Long Hair Republican ||
05/21/2004 6:41:48 PM ||
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"FBI sources say thereâs no hard intelligence warning of specific plans by terrorists to launch suicide attacks here like those wreaking havoc in Israel and Iraq. .....In fact, U.S. analysts are at a loss to explain why the homeland has thus far escaped such attacks,"
Because it's a lie - no-one is interested in coming to America to destroy the way of life that all American enjoy! The opposition is to the forcible export of the American or western culture to countries that aren't obsessed with capital gains. They don't try to force their way of life on us, so why are we so keen to force it on them?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 19:28 Comments ||
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#3
"Because it's a lie - no-one is interested in coming to America to destroy the way of life that all American enjoy! "
Gee, Count Yorgos Vampire, did you chat with the 19 IslamoNazi 9/11 hijackers before they did their attack?
Guess you didn't get that memo.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/21/2004 19:34 Comments ||
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#4
The FBI, et al, might be doing their PC fetish and not want to say "Middle Eastern Men 16-40".
Doesn't stop us from being reserved and eyeballing suspicious activity amongst these folks, and reporting same, and getting the name of the bureaucrat we report the problem to, with time and date.
The Islamacists are indeed intent on imposing their way of life on the rest of the world, by force if necessary, until a Moslem Caliphate rules us all according to Moslem law.
I rather object to that, myself.
Re: why we haven't seen another attack in the US, it is due to several causes. First, some planned attacks have been disrupted. Second, many young jihadists are busy hustling over to Iraq and similar places. And third, it is an explicit strategy of the Islamacist ideologues that Moslems should move to Europe, have lots of babies and Islamacize Europe first, before the final push to defeat the US and Israel.
Finally, large attacks like 9/11 take years to put in place.
#11
Because it's a lie - no-one is interested in coming to America to destroy the way of life that all American enjoy!
And you know this because? More authoritarian clairvoyance. It's an old story, Emperor Napoleon addresses the troops....
#12
Rkb is right, we've speculated before about the extreme left fifth column whipping itself into a violent frenzy and what form this will take when it finally reaches critical mass and makes the all important transition from pop-culture delusion to lethal reality.
Few MumiaCong radicals would want to forego their trust funds and the hope of future media careers to take up suicide bombing. It only takes a few, however, from among millions.
The terrorist planners are monsters, but they are not fools. There should be no shortage of willing recruits if the planners know some psychology and have done their homework on the antiwar movement and far left subculture.
An ideal recruit would be a socially isolated individual who has already tried to gain social acceptance in a left-wing organization but who has failed because of poor social skills or low status rather than through any lack of revolutionary zeal.
A working class student who has been rejected by middle-class lefties for social reasons would be in denial about the real causes, of course, and the most unbalanced would seek some spectacular gesture to guarantee acceptance.
The glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers and other "martyrs" would naturally suggest this course to such persons.
American suicide bomber, most likely profile:
WM, 18-25, overweight, conciously stereotyped left-conformist dress and mannerisms, failing or failed student in upscale college, failed artist (more likely graphic than music), history of depression, lower middle class background.
#13
Atomic Conspiracy wrote "American suicide bomber, most likely profile:
WM, 18-25, overweight, conciously stereotyped left-conformist dress and mannerisms, failing or failed student in upscale college, failed artist (more likely graphic than music), history of depression, lower middle class background"
#16
The FBI, et al, might be doing their PC fetish and not want to say "Middle Eastern Men 16-40".
Doesn't stop us from being reserved and eyeballing suspicious activity amongst these folks, and reporting same, and getting the name of the bureaucrat we report the problem to, with time and date.
This is probably one of the most damaging lies of those who demand "open-mindedness" about even the most hideous of moral corruption.
Only officers of the court are obliged to consider anyone "innocent until proven guilty." This doesn't mean that people, accused or not, should be given the benefit of the doubt but there is absolutely nothing that obliges thinking people not to draw their own conclusions from educated guesses.
It is exactly this sort of moronic banana oil that prevents domestic airlines from conducting thorough searches of more than two passengers meeting the same racial profile.
American citizens are under no obligation whatsoever to avoid reaching their own conclusions about the complicity of well matched candidates in potential terrorist activity.
In fact, for the sake of our own survival, so long as Islamist terrorists continue to perpetrate ever greater horrors upon our world, we gradually become (if anything) more obliged to scrutinize those who match the profile of those offenders who precede them.
Anyone who is incapable of reaching such a conclusion probably qualifies as a flatliner. Islamists depend upon our ingrained unwillingness to prejudge. People who are unable to draw ready conclusions subsequent to horror after repeated horror are, in effect, enablers of those who seek to perpetrate these atrocities.
#17
OK Atomic Conspiracy--thanks for pulling that "profile" outta your ass--lower middle class--going to an upscale college?! As if
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/22/2004 0:24 Comments ||
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#18
Au Contraire, Not-Mike, thanks for revealing your prejudice, as well as your complete ignorance of the student-body demographics of up-scale colleges.
#20
"In fact, for the sake of our own survival, so long as Islamist terrorists continue to perpetrate ever greater horrors upon our world, we gradually become (if anything) more obliged to scrutinize those who match the profile of those offenders who precede them."
Ever greater horrors upon OUR world? Yes, such an inconvienience that non-americans live on this planet, isn't it?
A nuclear bomb going off in your backyard is a pretty extreme terror! Depleted uranium littering your suburb is a pretty extreme form of terror, don't you think?
Only Great Britain and the USA have used nuclear weapons against other humans. In WWII the Polish Cavalry (on horseback, real horses) charged German Tanks. Polish terror tactics! I believe there was a tank whose paint was chipped by a sabre.
Take pride Americans that, each year, you allow your government to spend more money on WMD than 3rd world countries have to run their entire economies. But you've gotto do that of course, 'cause everyones' just lining up and waiting to invade! In fact, I'm sure that there's a picture of Usama bin Laden with a pamphlet detailing real estate prices in down town L.A.
#22
#21 Only Great Britain and the USA have used nuclear weapons against other humans
Shipman's response:Moron.
you allow your government to spend more money on WMD than 3rd world countries have to run their entire economies
Shipman's response: keep that in mind Moron Bye Moron watch out for Ivan.
Well they're great responses, no?
Not the example of your average US Citizen's intelligence. But a true example of the favourite typle of suicide bomber recruite! One whose ability express a different point of view depands soley on ad hominem attacks and personal threats!
From the standard little red, white and blue, pocket-survival and know your terrorist manual:
Term: Shipman (AKA Moron)- A person whose intellectual development proceeds normally up to about 8 - 12 years of age after which there is little or no further development.
#24
Raj> I believe that by "nuclear weapons" he's referring to depleted uranium weapons.
If that's so, myself I'd have used "radioactive weapons" perhaps to be more accurate. There's no splitting of the nucleus after all, radiation's the problem instead.
#25
#23 yorgos - when / where did the Brits use a nuke?
The Brits as part of the NATO force acknowledged using depleted uranium ammunition in Bosnia in late 1994 and 1995 and they also used DU anti tank shells in Iraq.
A witness who told ABCNEWS he believed the military was covering up the extent of abuse at Iraqâs Abu Ghraib prison was today stripped of his security clearance and told he may face prosecution because his comments were "not in the national interest.
I wondered how long the Army would let him air the dirty laundry in public.
#2
He said that while he did not see the actual abuse take place,.... Then why is he described as a witness? A more apt term would be 'rumor monger'. I've read nothing where Provance reported his 'information' thru command channels. Instead the weasel goes to the media.
His attorney claims Provance is being intimidated for coming forward. Problem is he did not come forward. Instead he went out of his way to smear the Army and the nation.
#4
Hope the left has a job opening for you. Most companies DO NOT like thier IT people spreading rumors or talking to the press. Kind of a TRUST thing they have with the Network Admins. Good luck on your next career.
#5
the problem is that Provance doesn't seem to have any real evidence other then hearsay, and unless he can name names of MI's who are also accused of abuse - then most mil defense attorney's will fillet him in court.
#6
Come on--especially you military guys--you mean to tell me soldiers don't talk about things going on? That must be the quietest worplace I've ever heard of--someone farts down the hall I hear about it in my office
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/22/2004 0:27 Comments ||
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#7
Come on--especially you military guys--you mean to tell me soldiers don't talk about things going on? That must be the quietest workplace I've ever heard of--someone farts down the hall I hear about it in my office
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
05/22/2004 0:28 Comments ||
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#9
NMM, most military shop talk focuses on what's for dinner (and whether it will suck,) sports and what things I plan to do in the first two weeks of my return CONUS.
Soldiers routinely talk about their chain of command and whether they are morons - amongst themselves. (The scene in Blackhawk down where the soldier gets caught imitating his Captain is accurate.)
Evidently, my voice is a cross between Kermit the Frog and Fozzi Bear, so my imitators usually broke up the room when I got upset or did something else entertaining.
You won't find soldiers speaking to the Press, though without authorization, because that is a UCMJ offence. All soldiers know this. Usually soldiers with a beef will pass the info to their spouse or mother who can take up the issue with their Congressman.
This guy is a moron on many different levels. Not only has he committed a basic offence that will surely be punished. He has embarrassed his unit (read buddies) by spouting hearsay.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/22/2004 3:26 Comments ||
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#10
Thank GOD I finally found some folks that are making sense. I know Provance and he is a horrible NCO...and incredibly dumb, too. You guys are exactly right, he never saw jack. And for saying, "there definately is a cover-up," he will be disciplined because his chain of command told him not to say anything unless he new it to be absolutely true...and then he should go through the proper military channels. He didn't.
A military jury on Friday convicted a U.S. pus-ball soldier of desertion for leaving his combat unit in Iraq in protest of the war A panel of four officers and four enlisted soldiers found Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejia of the Florida National Guard guilty during a court-martial at Fort Stewart. The 28-year-old Mejia of Miami Beach was missing five months before he turned himself in.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 12:52:26 PM ||
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FORT STEWART, Ga. (AP) A military jury convicted a U.S. soldier Friday of desertion for leaving his combat unit in Iraq in protest of the war. Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejia of the Florida National Guard was found guilty by a jury of four officers and four enlisted soldiers. He faces up to a year in jail and a bad conduct discharge and was to be sentenced Friday afternoon.
Mejia said he disobeyed orders to return to his unit because his war experiences prompted him to seek status as a conscientious objector.
Enjoy your stay in the brig, asshole.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 12:49:15 PM ||
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You have officially been demoted to Shitstain First Class.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 12:53 Comments ||
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#2
Prisoner Mejia, you will officially start crackin' rocks for the people of the United States tomorrow.
What about those two cruds who went to Canada? Have they been officially given asylum?
#3
He faces up to a year in jail and a bad conduct discharge
What is this!? Just a year!? We had a guy in our command who forged some checks and he got 2 years in Leavenworth for that. And Leavenworth isn't a nice place to be from what I heard.
Posted by: AF Lady ||
05/21/2004 12:58 Comments ||
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#4
AF Lady
Sounds like they're being a little soft on the sentence as a political move in light of his "concientious objector" lies claims.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 13:05 Comments ||
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#5
He should have been shot.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
05/21/2004 13:11 Comments ||
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#6
Do worse than shoot him. Deport his a$$ to where he came from (Guatemala?) after he gets out.
Posted by: ed ||
05/21/2004 14:49 Comments ||
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#7
I served 10 years in the Infantry and a Persian Gulf I vet and I have a few simple questions....
If he was an INFANTRY squad leader (Staff Sergeant) then WHY did he NOT take action to stop the "so-called" brutalities on the Iraqis that he witnessed?
All he had to do was "take charge" (which by the way just happens to be in his job description and he got paid for) and put an end to it?
Why did he wait until AFTER he was on his 2 week R&R before he suddenly "woke up" and made these claims?
Quite frankly, (and pardon my French) but he is what we in the Infantry use to refer to as a shitbag. (Sorry Fred I don't usually use the word French in polite conversation) Nothing more, nothing less.
I feel he should have been reduced to the rank of E-1, with forfiture of all pay, and a DISHONORABLE discharge. THEN sentenced to 5 years in Leavenworth.
Why? Because he was suppose to have been a leader of men. Responsible for the training, discipline, and welfare of his troops. He failed not only them, by abandoning them on the field of battle where REAL leadership is needed most, but the country for which he served. Just my 2 cents.
Still, his facial expression does not reflect the gravity of the situation. Either he doesnât realize how bad off he is, or he feels his conviction is serving some sort of goal that he approves of.
#10
He'll have new insight when the pison MPs jam his jaw into those stairs when he does not move up them fast enough. No digital cameras to record the "abuse"
EFL Muslims, like Jews and Christians, must own up to problems in their holy book.
BY IRSHAD MANJI [my favorite Lesbian Canadian Moslem]
Muslim reaction to the beheading of Nicholas Berg tells us a lot about whatâs happening in the Islamic world. More than that, it reveals whatâs not happening, yet needs to... many of these Muslims continue to cradle a dangerous delusion. Islam, they still insist, had nothing to do with this horrific crime...
[somebody said this]
"... cutting off the Americanâs head was an act of mutilation forbidden by Islam." Sound familiar? In the days following September 11, Muslim spokespeople mouthed the mantra that the Koran makes it absolutely clear when jihad can and canât be pursued, and the terrorists unquestionably crossed the line. To quote a Muslim American scholar who typified this perspective, Allah "says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity." Wishful whitewashing. The Koran verse thatâs cited as "unequivocal" actually bestows wiggle room. Hereâs how it fully reads: "We laid it down for the Israelites," meaning those who believe in one God, "that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind." Sadly, the clause starting with "except" can be deployed by militant Muslims to fuel their jihads. Thatâs precisely how Nicholas Bergâs executioners justified their travesty. ... We shouldnât underestimate the impact of this Koranic loophole...
Posted by: mhw ||
05/21/2004 10:41:44 AM ||
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i love this woman! i get to read her book awhile back and it very helpful info. she funy to. if you get chance im suggest you read her experience. i to have been become muslim refusenik. also learn new word from her call ijtihad. just to bad she lesbian.
The FBI has disseminated to 18,000 law enforcement agencies an intelligence bulletin advising police officials to be on the lookout for suicide bombers attempting to strike inside the US, TIME's Elaine Shannon reports today on TIME.com. The lightly classsified bulletin, headlined "Possible suicide bomber indicators," and circulated earlier today (May 20) via the FBO's secure Law Enforcement Online (LEO) Intranet, warns local badge-carriers to look for obvious signs of trouble - people wearing heavy, bulky jackets on warm days, smelling of chemicals, trailing wires from their jackets - and, as well, more subtle ones, such as tightly clenched fists. Someone who never shows his palms could be gripping a detonator rigged to go off when a button is released. "If you shoot him, you're still not safe because his hands relax and the bomb explodes," says a counter-terrorism official, TIME reports. The FBI bulletin also notes that suicide bombers may disguise themselves in stolen military, police or firefighter's garb or as pregnant women, TIME reports.
Isn't there something in the Qu'ran that warns against dressing in drag?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 9:24 Comments ||
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#4
Isn't there something in the Qu'ran that warns against dressing in drag?
Based on the number of jihadis that have been caught in drag lately, apparently not.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/21/2004 9:25 Comments ||
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#5
Got a point, Robert. Maybe the Profit, may bees pee upon him, did it at some point, which would make it okay for them to. Must be in one of the oft-neglected hadiths or something.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 9:29 Comments ||
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#6
against dressing in drag
it's all that sexual repression searching for release.
#7
Are these suppossed to be sleeper cells? folks that have infiltrated from Canada or what?
The Islamoids may find a few of the hard core sleepers may have softened while living in the Suburbs. I could be wrong but I remember that happening to the Soviets.
#9
ruprecht - The Soviets began to see they were lied to by their government. "What's so bad about capitalism?"
The jihadis are so fervent that they bellieve that all they see is a lie, and their masters back in Jihadistan are feeding them the only truth. Sefarious has got it right. Remember the story about Atta having to "suffer through" a lap-dance at a strip joint a month before he butchered 3000 people at the WTC.
#10
Do you guys ever think the general public will ever have enough of these guys and take matters into their own hands? I've heard the catch phrase thown around that this war will be won by average people like us - what if the public did just that and took it upon themselves? Isn't that sort of what Europe did back in the day against the Moors and Ottomans?
This is probably a dumb question but on I've wondered about.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
05/21/2004 12:04 Comments ||
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#11
Do you guys ever think the general public will ever have enough of these guys and take matters into their own hands? I've heard the catch phrase thown around that this war will be won by average people like us - what if the public did just that and took it upon themselves? Isn't that sort of what Europe did back in the day against the Moors and Ottomans?
There's been one or two examples of that sort of spontaneously-organized response in the past three years.
Posted by: Mike ||
05/21/2004 12:31 Comments ||
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#12
Don't forget that team of Internet-searching Jihadbusters from yesterday, Mike.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 12:32 Comments ||
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#13
YS, I think that before it's all over, America and the rest of the West/Civilization will come to the horrific realization that we're on the receiving end of a Crusade. And the only way to win... is to Crusade back. And this will probably become real at all levels of society, due to the fact that it is a war at all levels.
#14
And there we have it. I love neat & tidy little logic boxes: "Crusade", OBL's favorite meme justifying the Islamofacist madness, now becomes a Western meme for taking the gloves off, giving as good (bad) as we get, doing what's necessary to not just survive, but win, definitively, permanently, absolutely. How remarkably apropos!
#18
There has to be a legal way to combat the jihad that is stewing in our country. Islam isn't just a religion but also a social/political order. I didn't realise this until I heard some SA smiley face talk about it, in glowing terms, about the kindom of allah.
By outing islam as not just a religion but a political theory that is hostile to liberal democracy it can be made illegal, ala nazism, communism, or even a social norm like polygamy. (and please, I know you can be a commie/nazi and not be a criminal).
My point is that, rather than a lawless reaction to the next jihadie attack. We as a society need to have a clear case as to what is and isn't exceptable. And I think Americans would be against a social/political/religion that is hostile to their beleifs.
That way an internment and deportation of those involved in the RoP will know what it is that they are being targeted for. I am not ready to give up our freedom to those who would use that freedom to kill us. It will be up to the RoP'rs to have their 100 yr war to get it right. But until then, FOAD!
#19
A4021 - I realized, from your most excellent comment, that the crusade meme had come full circle.
In other words, your comment triggered a mini-epiphany for me and I thought it prescient / prophetic and, not to belabor the point I posted, simply beautiful!
In the past here on RB, I have posted often that we will be faced with some very hard choices - by force and necessity - and eventually, when enough of us have died at the hand of Islamofascism and internal enablers, we will do what it takes. We're damned slow to motivate, in spite of the cowardly and treasonous elements of our own society and the infiltrators such as CAIR which serve as the mine canaries that indicate we're in for a real fight, but it will happen - and we will be surprised by our own ferocity, methinks. I believe that, before it's over, it will, indeed, be an in your face choice for individual Americans in their own neighborhoods. Some day soon, we may be reading about soccer Moms taking out jihadis...
Traveller - are you out there, bro? I know you are in the same quandry on this issue...
#20
"Crusade," by definition infers a remedial action. We are not seeking to remedy any deficiency, we are defending ourselves against vicious and immoral attacks.
(and please, I know you can be a ... nazi and not be a criminal)
I beg to differ. Nazism has as one of its intrinsic goals the mass murder of Jews. It's propaganda is nothing more than illegal hate speech and must be disavowed by all thinking people. No tolerance is merited or deserved by those who advocate Nazism. Like terrorism, it is a cancer which must be wiped from this earth.
#22
.com, You had me getting a little defensive there for a bit. But, ok, I see we're on the same page, more or less.
I think right now we (Western Civ.) are just arguing semantics.
We don't like words such as: islamofascists, racial-profiling, crusade, cultural genocide, jihad, etc.
Crusade: 2 : a remedial enterprise undertaken with zeal and enthusiasm
Odd, that sure sounds like what the Jihadis, wahabbis and RoP practitioners are doing. And from the looks of things on the Homefront, CAIR and other Muslim "moderates" haven't risen up and denounced it and seem to silently endorse it.
I think we will finally *see* the crusade, but only after more attacks.
Zen: Terrorism is a tactic and a symptom of a larger problem. Arab defeatism. I think the only real cure is "cultural genocide". Before any of you call me a nazi or BusHitler, I'm not calling for the massive exterminations of arabs, muslims or any other group of people. I'm calling for bringing these people OUT of the 7th century and breaking (either forceably or peaceably) their delusions of grandeur and wistful longing for the past.
I probably fubar'd that whole thing. Steven den Beste explains it better, but searching his site turns into an epic adventure.
#24
When President Reagan unleashed the United States Air Force against Libya resulting from horrid acts of terrorism directed by Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.
After Ronald Reagan taught Gaddafi the only thing the dictator understood, Libyan backed terrorism cooled off greatly.
The same treatment is required for Iran, Syria-Lebanon's nest of death cultists. In Iran's case the main source of funding the mullahs use for promoting global & Iraqi terrorism is derived from crude oil sales. Hit the exported Iranian hard so not one drop leaves the Persian Gulf. Without Iranian assistance, Syria & it's vassal state of Lebanon will be in a weakened position but since the nature of the jihadees is self death and death to all 'infidels', well, we should
We are in a war for the survival of western civilization just in case the leftists forgot that fact or they mistakenly think if they are nice to these Muslim killers, they shall be left alone. With the evil trash which slaughtered Nick Berg there are no 'peace talks' only TOTAL victory, after each and everyone of these jihadic cancer cells are eradicated off the face of the Earth.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/21/2004 22:02 Comments ||
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Zen: Terrorism is a tactic and a symptom of a larger problem. Arab defeatism. I think the only real cure is "cultural genocide". Before any of you call me a nazi or BusHitler, I'm not calling for the massive exterminations of arabs, muslims or any other group of people. I'm calling for bringing these people OUT of the 7th century and breaking (either forceably or peaceably) their delusions of grandeur and wistful longing for the past.
Not too big a problem. Since jihad's intent is essentially "cultural genocide," if the choice is between a culture that has brought our world the Internet, space travel, IMAX, personal automotive transportation, air travel, democracy, pluralistic society and so forth ... versus a "culture" of congenital wife beaters, sadistic decapitators, mass murderers, theocratic fanatics and instigators of some of the world's most evil atrocities, well ... let's just say that there's not much of a choice, now is there?
A U.S. soldier charged with deserting his unit in Iraq walked away partly to avoid orders to abuse Iraqi prisoners, his attorneys argued Wednesday. Attorneys for Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejia, an infantryman with the Florida National Guard, spent the first day of Mejia's court-martial arguing for a military judge to dismiss the desertion charge. Ramsey Clark, one of Mejia's attorneys, said his client was disgusted after his unit was ordered to use sleep-deprivation tactics with blindfolded Iraqi detainees. In at least one instance, Clark said, a pistol was cocked next to detainees' heads.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 04:04 ||
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"The first thing we do, letâs kill all the lawyers.â - William Shakespeare.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 10:26 Comments ||
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Is this the same Ramsey Clark who has coddled and fellated every anti-American dictator in the world for decades now? When is this clown going to die, anyway?
Posted by: Jonathan ||
05/21/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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Chris W -- That is one of the most popular and misunderstood Shakespeare quotes of all time. The character saying it, Dick the Butcher I think, wanted to kill the lawyers because they stood for the rule of law, and he was advocating a peasant revolt. And I'm not just saying this because I'm a lawyer . . . .
Posted by: Tibor ||
05/21/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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Tibor:
I am aware of that fact. Doesn't make me like the morally bankrupt criminal defense attorneys any less.
(The REAL problem is crooked legislators / politicians who create the rotten laws that are ultimately exploited by the lawyers after all. Not that an anti-idiotarian Rantburgian like yourself would ever behave that way... ;>))
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 11:33 Comments ||
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Doesnât make me like the morally bankrupt criminal defense attorneys any less.
Caveat: I am a trial lawyer. I donât do criminal defense work -- but I would hope all criminal defense attorneys handle even the worst clientâs case with a zealous presumption that their client is innocent, and make the government prove itâs case beyond a reasonable doubt. I think in a free society we are entitled to expect vigorous defenses for those charged with crimes, and âit is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.â (Blackstone (1753-1765) in 2 Bl. Com. c. 27, margin page 358, ad finem). We must err on the side of acquittal to maintain a free society.
PLEASE DONâT MISTAKE THIS AS ADVOCACY FOR TAKING IT EASY ON CRIMINALS -- I fully believe that once someone is proven to be guilty, despite the initial presumption of innocence, that person should âfryâ as a deterrent example to other would-be criminals. These ideas, I think, as well as the role of lawyers in general (and frivolous lawsuits) was bandied about at some length a few months back (right here at Rantburg, including that famous âkill all the lawyersâ quote of Shakespeare -- here in this thread). Bear in mind that -- even with Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejiaâs wild and crazy defense strategy of trying to jump on the prison abuse media band wagon -- he was found guilty and faces jail and a bad conduct discharge (see this thread). The system worked, and (once again) our nationâs respect for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness has been vindicated by the rule of law.
#1
Good articles tipper, thanx. I tend to agree a lot w/the first article. We cannot leave Iraq for the obvious reasons but we must not micromanage their internal gov't once we hand it over. A pull back out of industrial areas but strategically placed on Soddy's northern border and maybe the Iranian border as well could provide the proper leverage to ensure follow on ops in the wot. Let the mooks (shias,sunnis, et al assholes) deal in their own muck.
#2
Second, and far more important, intelligence professionals should always resist the temptation to become policy advocates because, being mostly human, intelligence analysts want to be right -- and when they are advocates of a strategy, they will be tempted to find evidence that proves that policy to be correct and ignore evidence that might prove the policy in error. Advocating policies impairs the critical faculties. Besides, in a world in which opinions are commonplace, there is a rare value in withholding opinions. Finally, intelligence, as a profession, should be neutral.
Hello! You need to take your own advice, Stratfor. Apparently this writer knows it, but can't manage to be the rare jewel we need right now.
evolution of political institutions in the midst of a sustained guerrilla war is impossible.
Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE. If you can't help the president's goals, then get out of his way. Leave the job to those who are on board or help out the best you can. There is nothing worse than someone trying to help, whose ultimate goal is to push their own, separate agenda. Stratfor should be fully aware that divide and conquer is our enemies best friend.
Repeat of my last point because it is so important.
Iraq should then be encouraged to develop a Shiite-dominated government, the best guarantor against al Qaeda and the greatest incentive for the Iranians not to destabilize the situation.
BULLHOCKY!
The "me, me, me" meme of this piece is pathetic. There are higher goals than removing a leader for our own interests and then leaving the population to fight a civil war. That is not in keeping with American goals. Shame is the word that comes to my mind.
I don't necessarily disagree with what this guy writes, he makes some excellent points. However, this typical...if I was in charge, then everything would be perfect self-aggrandizing that is not helpful. Those who actually are in charge have to make decisions that will never, ever be perfect as they make their way forward. Thus they will always open to criticism by those who think they know better. Stratfor finds itself in the sad position of doing little more than throwing peanuts from the peanut gallery .
I have an opinion too, just like I have a belly button. I think that we should work with the Iraqi's to divide up their country into divisions that actually might work, put bases in which are useful to us and then wish them good luck. My idea accomplishes a nice balance between our desire to help the Iraqi's without thinking only of ourselves. Does anyone at here or at the Pentagon care? I think not. Same to you, Stratfor.
Sure, the insight from this article is interesting and insightful and I agree with a good portion of it. But the bottom line is that Stratfor is too busy proving that their own superior advice is what the president should have and should listen to. Such self-indulgence is just not useful to those who have to make the final calls.
Poop or get off the pot, Stratfor. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
A lawyer who was arrested two weeks ago in connection with the terror attacks in Spain was set free Thursday after evidence pointed to another suspect in the deadly train bombings. Brandon Mayfieldâs release came soon after Spanish officials said fingerprints found on a bag near the bombing site were that of an Algerian. U.S. authorities had previously said the prints were Mayfieldâs. The bag contained detonators similar to those used in the March 11 bombings, which killed 191 people and injured 2,000 others.
"I want to thank my friends and family for what Iâll call a harrowing ordeal," Mayfield, a Muslim convert, said as he walked out the federal courthouse in Portland, grasping his wifeâs hand and holding a Koran and a Muslim prayer rug. In Arabic and then in English, Mayfield recited the Muslim prayer: "God is great. There is no God but God." It is not clear whether the investigation against him has been dropped. Senior law enforcement officials in Washington speaking on condition of anonymity had said the FBI had Mayfieldâs home under surveillance for weeks â but had rushed to arrest him because they feared news of their investigation would be leaked.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/21/2004 3:55:14 AM ||
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Glad we only tried him in the press. The Saudis might have sent him to chop-chop square already. I hear their appeal process is the lucky eight ball.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 4:22 Comments ||
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What happened to the 15 point fingerprint match?
#3
El Pais reports that Spanish investigators found only eight points of similarity between Mayfield's print and the one on the plastic bag. The FBI reportedly found 15 matching points. The FBI is not commenting on the discrepancy.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/21/2004 9:33 Comments ||
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East Timor has warned that the withdrawal of United Nations peacekeepers could give rise to a new threat of armed militia gangs returning from Indonesia. The UN has handed over security and administrative responsibility to coincide with Thursdayâs second anniversary of East Timorâs independence. The UN has renewed its mandate in East Timor for a final 12 months, but is cutting its peacekeeping presence by two thirds.
Australia will provide one quarter of the remaining force, contributing 100 troops and 16 police. The troop presence along the border with West Timor will be scaled back - a move that East Timorâs foreign minister, Jose Ramos-Horta, fears will encourage the return of the armed militia that caused so much bloodshed in 1999.
Substitute leader of the Tehran Friday prayers Hashemi Rafsanjani condemned the United Statesâ policies in Iraq and said the US measures and policies are detrimental to the international community.
Addressing the worshipers gathered for the weekly congregational prayers at the Tehran University campus, Rafsanjani said the United States has committed so many mistakes in Iraq and it is doing an about-face. He said the United States is not honest when it supports mottos on the human rights in other countries, Iraq included. Rafsanjani said the United States erroneously thinks it can achieve its aims and objectives by following up false policies in Iraq. He said supporting the Israeli regime is another mistake committed by the United States adding that the global arrogance considers Islam as a great enemy for itself. He touched on the September 11, 2001 hijacking mid-air suicidal attacks on the us major cities New York and Washington and said US President George W. Bush spoke of a new crusade soon after the events while the crusade resulted in the past to the defeat of the westerners.
Opposition to Iranâs Islamic revolution was also a blunder committed by the United States, he said adding that Washington has gained nothing in opposing the Iranian revolution. He commented on the achievements of the 1979 Islamic revolution and said the Islamic revolution proved that even in the contemporary era, the community may still be run in accordance with religious principles. He went on to say that Al-Qaeda and Taliban which have created so many problems for the modern world have been created by the United States.
Rafsanjani said the United States has paid a heavy cost for his mistakes in creating Taliban and Al-Qaeda while noting that it created them to encounter with the Iranian system. Rafsanjani said the world public opinion is opposed to terrorism and rejects it but the problem is that the us is not able to control the tense situation in Iraq and the situation in that country has grown increasingly worse.
He referred to various plots hatched by the US against Iraq and said the Americans cannot acquit themselves of the crimes they have committed there and in particular in the holy cities of Karbala and Najaf which have been the scene of deadly blasts previously. Stressing that Iran is the most oppressed victim of terrorism in the world, he noted the United States, as a promoter of terrorism and founder of the Taliban, cannot claim it is fighting against terrorism and violation.
He condemned the move by the US military to enter the holy cities of Karbala and Najaf despite the fact that the senior Islamic jurisprudents have warned against the US military personnel in this regard. He blamed the Americans for the deadly incidents in Iraqâs holy sites and said they are responsible for what had occurred in the day of Ashura. He called on the Muslim world to give their genuine backing to the innocent Palestinian people. Rafsanjani said the Americans are mainly responsible for the tragic situation in the region, including Palestine. Of course, after this âsermonâ the people went out and promptly tried to storm the British embassy.
#1
Like a bad "B" movie: Return of The Great Satan!
Whew! This is a confirmation that we are doing things right - much like positioning policy exactly the opposite of French mutterings. Rafsanjani & Co consider themselves, to my delight and amusement, to be very savvy and sophisticated foreign policy wonks.
Thanx, Hashie! Keep waving your arms, we'll get around to you quite soon.
I wonder knowing what we know now of Mohamed Atta whether we would have minded seeing him stripped in a prison or forced to wear a hood or humiliated in any other way? I wonder if we secretly would have found ourselves hoping for far worse treatment. I wonder if anyone would blame us. And not just Atta. What if we saw any of the other 18 Sept. 11 hijackers similarly treated? Knowing what we do now, would we care now? Probably not. Weâll never know.
But this much I do know. I know what Atta and his gang did. I know they slit the throats of pilots and stewardesses and rammed planes into buildings â sounds a hell of a lot worse than putting womenâs clothing onto someoneâs head. I know they didnât care much about our rights or how we looked or how we fared. They didnât give a second thought to any of those killed getting a second chance.
Oh, if only we could have nabbed these guys earlier. If we could have rounded them all up Sept. 10. How different would things be today? You know, those guys in that prison werenât boy scouts. They were there for a reason. Who knew how many Mohamed Attas were there or are there? Iâm just glad they are there. And Iâm grateful for calamities we will never know because they are there. And not, and I must stress, not here.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/21/2004 8:02:46 PM ||
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It would be interesting after the smoke clears to know who was abused, how they were abused and what they were actually arrested for. I'm still hazy on all the specifics unless any of you all know for sure.
#2
The only real reason this Iraqi prison story drags on & on & on is because those in the liberal media demand it hoping it will harm Bush, while not caring about the real issue, Terrorist Inc's goal of forcing Islam on the entire world, one way or the other.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/22/2004 1:06 Comments ||
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What did Bush know and when did he know it? Stop the war, retreat, ask what if.
Stop the draft, war is bad for flowers and other living things, it was only two towers, don't look up, remember it's the same god, Jesus was a prophet, kill dragons, kiss the ring, smile, know your place.
"I've still got the jive to survive among the heros and villians." Dum do de doo.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/22/2004 8:38 Comments ||
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#5
Re #4. I was referring to the posting, not to Lucky's comment, whatever it means.
Re #2. The only real reason this Iraqi prison story drags on & on & on is because those in the liberal media demand it hoping it will harm Bush,
Yeah, Mark, the only reason is that the media wants to harm Bush -- plus these other reasons:
* on-going Congressional hearings,
* on-going courts-martial,
* on-going investigations within the Army and Pentagon,
* on-going releases of prisoners who report their personal stories,
* on-going complaints that the entire legal culpability is being pinned on only seven "bad apple" enlisted military policemen,
* on-going mass demonstrations about the issue,
* President Bush's recent unprecedented public statement to Arabs,
* the the recent beheading of Nick Berg as retaliation for the abuse,
* the US public's great interest in the issue.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/22/2004 9:17 Comments ||
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Not exactly Boy Scouts? Then how come we let half of them out a few days after the depravity of our torture became known? Do I have it right - did we turn loose 1600 or so murderers all at once, out of stupidity? Or did we have them imprisoned by mistake, and now we've turned them loose.
#7
Yeah, Mark, the only reason is that the media wants to harm Bush -- plus these other reasons:
* on-going Congressional hearings,--Why have these when you have the 2 below, i.e. investigations under way in the Pentagon (and Army underneath it) with the resulting courts-martial in progress? * on-going courts-martial, --See Above * on-going investigations within the Army and Pentagon,--See above. * on-going releases of prisoners who report their personal stories, --I've only seen one release of about 300 prisoners and as for their personal stories, these people will work HRW and Amnesty International for everything they're worth, even if they're making it up. We've been through this with the Gitmo detainees for 2 years. * on-going complaints that the entire legal culpability is being pinned on only seven "bad apple" enlisted military policemen,--Who's complaining except their superior officiers who are also having to take responsibility? * on-going mass demonstrations about the issue,--Where? I have heard of none, here or in Iraq. * President Bush's recent unprecedented public statement to Arabs,--He's made several since 9/11. To which one do you refer? Why is it so unprecedented? Because he keeps assuring them that democracy in their part of the world is going to happen or what? * the the recent beheading of Nick Berg as retaliation for the abuse,--President Bush mentioned this in his speech and said that there was "no justification whatsoever." * the US public's great interest in the issue.--Maybe you Bush-bashing Democrats are interested but I am not and neither are a lot of Americans.
We feel strongly that the problem is and was being handled through channels, as is right and proper.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/27/2004 0:55 Comments ||
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... Pastor Wilson Fazal, 41, managed to jump out of the vehicle in which his kidnappers were driving him to Peshawar late on the night of May 17. .... According to the Pakistan Gospel Assemblies pastor, his captors were driving him from Islamabad to Peshawar at high speed in a Pajero jeep when a mobile police patrol began following them. ... Panicking, the kidnappers drove off the road to escape the patrol, braking enough to give Fazal a chance to jump from the vehicle and run for his life. Despite his injuries and emotional state, he escaped in the darkness, eventually finding bus transport back to Islamabad. Fazal re-appeared early yesterday morning at the official Islamabad lodgings of a minority member of Pakistanâs National Assembly from Quetta, Asiya Nasir. ....
Fazal was severely beaten by his captors, who also subjected him to electric shocks, stabbed him through the tongue, shaved off his hair and mustache and taunted him with savage death threats if he refused to convert to Islam. ... The pastor also said he was shown photographs and diagrams and questioned in detail about Christian leaders and institutions in Quetta, clearly indicating his captors had organized plans to move against the cityâs Christian community.
Reportedly, police authorities from Quetta have insisted that Fazal return for questioning in their investigation of the case. One police official even accused local church leaders of orchestrating the kidnapping scenario, describing Fazalâs âmysterious disappearanceâ as a deliberate âdrama.â .... According to an Interior Ministry spokesman quoted in todayâs Dawn newspaper, Fazal was given medical treatment yesterday for his injuries and provided with the police protection he requested. The unnamed official claimed it was âprematureâ to state whether any âreligious elementsâ were involved in the pastorâs abduction. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/21/2004 9:32:10 PM ||
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Un-Newsworthy as Muslims are not victims
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 21:45 Comments ||
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Muslims are doing it so it must be ok. What's the complaint?
A Christian evangelist who was kidnapped two days ago in mysterious circumstances from the south-western city of Quetta, suddenly reappeared on Tuesday in the capital, Islamabad, in conditions that were just as mystifying. He was now in protective custody in a safe haven, according to a minority lawmaker in the national assembly. Pastor Wilson Fazal of the Pakistan Gospel Assembly in Quetta, the capital of Baluchistan province, was feared kidnapped when he disappeared on Sunday. The kidnapping came only a few days after the pastor was said to have received a pamphlet which warned Fazal against preaching Christianity and alleged that he had been blasphemous. ....
Aasia Nasir, a minority member of the countryâs lower house of parliament, told IRIN [Integrated Regional Information Networks] from Quetta that Fazal had suddenly reappeared in Islamabad early on Tuesday and was now in a safe-house, where he was being treated for injuries suffered during his kidnapping. "Today, suddenly, he came back, he escaped from those people and now he is in safe hands in a very safe place. But he is not in his [right] senses because he has been tortured a lot," she explained. "He is so scared that he canât even talk. Even we donât know the details. Iâm in Quetta and he came to Islamabad. I donât want to disclose his location. He has escaped from the terrorists," Nasir, who admitted that she had not yet seen Fazal herself, continued. "But when I talked to him on the phone, he kept on crying," she maintained. Although authorities were already investigating, Nasir said no one had any idea why Fazal had been kidnapped nor how he had escaped. "We donât know the exact thing. He said they were transferring him to a third place, after having obviously shifted him to two places earlier, and somehow he managed to escape near Peshawar, and caught a bus to Islamabad," she asserted. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/21/2004 9:22:36 PM ||
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This strange story, which surfaced in Rantburgyesterday, is really interesting.
Members of the Christian community announced the formation of an action committee on Monday to expedite efforts for the release of Father Wilson Fazal who was allegedly kidnapped on Sunday. Aasia Nasir, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) member of the national assembly, was elected chairperson of the committee, Jay Prakash, the provincial minister for minorities, and John Ambrose, the member of the provincial assembly, were elected as office bearers of the committee.
The government has been asked to get Father Fazal released within 48 hours otherwise they would agitate at all forums said Aasia Nasir, while talking to British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) on Monday. She said the deadline will expire this Tuesday evening and if the priest is not released they would protest peacefully in front of the Quetta Press Club. The priestâs driver said that he saw the priest ride away in a car, but he did not know why he got into another car after getting out of his own, he said. Earlier on, Father Wilson Fazal, who is the priest of the Pakistan Gospel Assemblies in Quetta, reportedly received threatening letters from unidentified men telling him to stop preaching and close the institution.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/21/2004 9:04:15 PM ||
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I see now that this story surfaced two days ago.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/21/2004 21:13 Comments ||
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Nov. 8 was the day U.S. guards took most of the infamous photographs: soldiers mugging in front of a pile of naked, hooded Iraqis, prisoners forced to perform or simulate sex acts, a hooded prisoner in a scarecrow-like pose with wires attached to him. It was unclear Friday whether most or all of the new pictures and video published by The Washington Post depicted events on Nov. 8. At least one photo, showing Spc. Charles Graner Jr. with his arm cocked as if to punch a prisoner, is described in military court documents as having been taken that day.
When Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits tearfully pleaded guilty Wednesday to abusing prisoners, he described fellow soldiers committing an escalating series of abuses on eight prisoners that included stamping on their toes and fingers and punching one man hard enough to knock him out. Sivits is likely to testify about the events of Nov. 8 at courts-martial for other soldiers charged with abuse. Three of them declined to enter pleas at hearings Wednesday: Sgt. Javal Davis, Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick II and Graner.
The abuse came during Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and reflection. The abused Iraqis, Sivits said, had been suspected of taking part in a prison riot that day. They were held at Abu Ghraib on suspicion of common crimes, not attacks on U.S. forces, said Col. Marc Warren, the top legal adviser to Iraqi commander Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez.
The day of abuse â a Saturday â capped what had been the worst week for U.S. troops in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion. Nearly three dozen had been killed in a surge of attacks that left some other soldiers frustrated and frightened. Insurgents had attacked the Abu Ghraib prison and other U.S. bases in the area with mortars several times in previous weeks.
The day before, insurgents had downed a Black Hawk helicopter with a rocket-propelled grenade near Saddam Husseinâs hometown of Tikrit, killing six. Sixteen soldiers had died five days earlier when a shoulder-fired missile destroyed a Chinook transport helicopter near the flashpoint city of Fallujah.
The International Red Cross temporarily pulled out of Iraq on Nov. 8 because of the violence, which also had included a deadly car bomb outside the aid groupâs Baghdad headquarters on Oct. 27.
Three Iraqi prisoners escaped in the four days before Nov. 8 â and an additional half-dozen detainees escaped on that day, according to the militaryâs internal report prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.
The pressure was on to get information from prisoners to help stop the attacks. "Weâve been working very hard to increase our intelligence capacity here," Sanchez told reporters in Iraq on Nov. 11. "We are not where we want to be yet."
Several accused soldiers have told investigators that military and civilian intelligence officers asked them to scare and humiliate the prisoners before they were questioned. "The orders came directly from the intelligence community, to soften up the detainees so that intelligence information could be gathered to save the lives of soldiers in the field," said Paul Bergrin, a lawyer for Davis.
Using guards to help interrogators "set the conditions" for questioning had been one tactic recommended by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller in September. Miller, then the commander of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp for terrorism suspects, toured U.S. prisons in Iraq and recommended several changes in tactics to Sanchez.
Troops in Iraq adopted many of Millerâs suggested approaches, military officials have said, after toning them down because some would have violated the Geneva Conventions, which apply to prisoners in Iraq. U.S. officials have said those rules did not apply to detainees at Guantanamo.
Sanchez told a Senate panel Wednesday that he never approved any tactics harsher than keeping prisoners in isolation. And Miller testified that he never meant for military guards to abuse detainees, only to tell interrogators their observations of the prisoners.
Miller now oversees the military detention facilities in Iraq. Sanchez announced last week that he would no longer even consider requests for harsh treatment of detainees other than isolation or segregation.
After Millerâs visit in September, the military brought in Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder in October to survey prison camps and make more suggestions. Ryder issued his report and left Iraq just three days before Nov. 8.
Ryder opposed Millerâs recommendation that military police be used to help set the stage for interrogations. He also urged officers to give more training to prison guards, which was never done.
Lack of training was one of many leadership problems with the Army Reserve unit that provided the guards at Abu Ghraib, according to the report by Gen. Taguba. He described a unit in which discipline had broken down to the point that soldiers were writing poems on their helmets and wandering around in civilian clothes carrying weapons.
Two days after the Nov. 8 spasm of abuse, the general in charge of the MPs gave written reprimands to two of the unitâs leaders for failing to correct security lapses at Abu Ghraib. Taguba recommended further disciplinary action against the two officers â Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum and Maj. David DiNenna. It is unclear if that has happened; they have not been criminally charged.
I figured that, particularly since the "news" media are straining to make it seem it's been going on for months.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/21/2004 18:07 Comments ||
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#2
The great informative news media needs to post some of Sammy's Abu Graib photos, too, just for a frame of reference. Of course, they won't because they are Al Jazerra, Western Division.
This is maddening have to fight a two front war, with one front in your back yard!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 18:19 Comments ||
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#3
This is maddening have to fight a two front war, with one front in your back yard!
#5
Yes, yes - the photos - just some renegade marines having a party!
And of course, no-one in authority could posibly know, could they?
It's not written in policy anywhere, now is it?
And saddam did much worse - although he never was foolish enough to take photos, was he?
And Hitler, well he was even worse still -wasn't he?
Oh, and we better not mention our old WWII ally, Stalin, 'cause they all pale to insignificance next to him?
So actually, when you consider the "big picture of human abuse" Saddam was pretty mild. Don't even know why people bothered to complain about him, hey?
No-one in Iraq asked you for this war! No suburban Bhagdadee asked you to bomb his home or take his clothes off etc etc..You're vindicated - completely innocent!
#6
We're so terrible we shouldn't do anything, should we "yorgos" bite me troll, and quit pretending (as in your other comment) that you're American - we wouldn't have you
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 19:33 Comments ||
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#7
No-one in Iraq asked you for this war!
Actually, they did. Go ask the Kurds.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/21/2004 20:01 Comments ||
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#8
They didn't ask for Saddam either.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 20:11 Comments ||
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#9
"No-one in Iraq asked you for this war!"?? Saddam & his Ba'athist Party asked for it a long, long time ago ,,,,it was never finished during the Gulf War.
Next on the list Iran, Lebanon-Syria.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/21/2004 21:15 Comments ||
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#10
So actually, when you consider the "big picture of human abuse" Saddam was pretty mild.
Haahahahahahaaaa!! HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!
Care to divulge what it is you're smoking? I'd sure like to have some.
#11
Yorgos---keep up the drivel and I will issue a fatwa and sick OGROY on you.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 21:20 Comments ||
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#12
Yorgos---keep up the drivel and I will issue a fatwa and sick OGROY on you.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 21:26 Comments ||
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#13
Yorgos---keep up the drivel and I will issue a fatwa and sick OGROY on you.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 21:28 Comments ||
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#14
Yorgos---keep up the drivel and I will issue a fatwa and sick OGROY on you.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 21:49 Comments ||
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#15
Fred---my computer went nuts, please delet 11-13 comments. One comment is enough...
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 21:51 Comments ||
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#16
Yeah, Frank - re-write the Bill of Rights and the American Constitution to suite you and your agreeing lackies!
After all the only opinion worth anything is yours - the rest are just pure anti-american, aren't they? No I'm not American and I've never pretended to be and I've never wanted to be - you probably can't understand why, can you?
For you there only is the good old USA and the rest of the world can just line up in servitude!
#17
Yorgie - You'll line up in servitude, alright. Not to the US, but you will be a good li'l dhimmi soon enough. Mebbe we'll come and bail your ass out. Mebbe not. Enjoy.
#19
If the situation sinks to the point where the majority of Sunni & Shi'ite Arab Iraqis demand the Coalition to depart, then maybe we should say "ok fine, we leave you with Saddam on top as we withdraw".
Just a thought to teach them a lession in being greatful, as the Kurds really are, that we toppled Saddam from power.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/21/2004 23:03 Comments ||
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#20
"just some renegade marines having a party!"
-actually it was Army reservists, we would've just killed them and left their carcasses for the mother luvin' rats - and - there would be no pictures. There would also be no silly ass blown out of proportion trial claiming all the so-called "abused" were fathers of the year recipients, good samaritans, and rescuers of baby ducks. Get your facts straight yorgos.
#21
Jarhead, it's as if the moron doesn't even realize that Sadaam filmed all his greatest escapades. For Yorkie the truth must sound muffled his ears wedged so tightly within his alimentary canal - with the rest of his head.
As for the reservists, if this all took place in one day, were they using meth that day? Did they stage some kind of dementia Olympics. What a twisted bunch of filth they must be.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/22/2004 3:34 Comments ||
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#22
#21 Jarhead, it's as if the moron (yorgos)doesn't even realize that Sadaam filmed all his greatest escapades.
Posted by: Super Hose
Isn't Jarhead some dunce out of Richy Rich comics? And isn't Super Hose a cellulite restrainer often white, uptight and outa-sight?
And as for the Kurds, a nation of stateless persons who have been, (and continue to be) hit from left, right and center by the Turks, Iranians and Iraquis for the past 70 years - suddenlly you're concerned?
This abuse and genocide of a people was being performed by the Iranians with CIA guidance, under the Shah - remember him? The USA's greatest middle eastern ally (and cheaper than the Israelis) and the Iraqis - remember trained and armed by the CIA, furnished with poisonous gas and all neccessary personal protectors? And the Turks, you know the current CIA lapdog to the north current.
Please remember that no patriotic Kurd would ever call him or herself an Iraqi. And no Iraqi considers a Kurd anything other than a Kurd. It's our western media and propaganda that tries to subvert their national identity by referring to them as Iraqi Kurds.
#23
Empirical findings (Troy Duster, etc) on the sources of "guilt free massacre" suggest that transient-revenge-killing is the result of frustration with rules-of-engagement. That is one reason why I support total-commitment in Iraq. I include starvation-siege and disproportionate retaliation, and nuclear blackmail, within legitimate counter-jihad operations.
This is the enemy that Rantburg-Limited-War fools are indulging:
Abu Zarqawi ("Address to the Muslim Nation, April 2004)
"Thanks to God, we are attacking them like they are attacking us and we are hitting them like they are hitting us. We are not equals to them. They fight to go to hell; we fight to go to heaven. We do not have much support or capabilities but God is on our side, they have no one on their side. God has blessed us; we have cut off their head and ripped their bodies in many areas; the United Nations in Baghdad, coalition forces in Karbala, the Italians in Nasiriyyah, the American forces on the Khalidiyyah Bridge, American intelligence in Al-Shaheen Hotel, the CIA in Al-Rashid Hotel and the Polish forces in Al-Hillah."
How do the I-want-to-be-part-of-something-big-even-as-a-kiss-ass jerks sleep? Watch for Bush's support go into tailspin after his inevitable spin-vomit exercise this Monday.
Human remains identified as those of an Italian hostage killed by his Iraqi captors last month were handed over Friday to the Italian Red Cross in Baghdad. Four Italian men working in Iraq as private security guards were kidnapped on April 12 as they took a taxi from Baghdad. One of these, Fabrizio Quattrocchi, was later executed -an act recorded on videotape.
Italian Red Cross spokesman Fabrizio Centofanti said the victimâs remains had been handed to the groupâs chief official in the Iraqi capital, Maurizio Scelli. The person who delivered the remains identified them as belonging to Quattrocchi, he said, adding that they were unrecognizable.
He gave no information on the person who handed over the remains, or on the fate of the remaining three Italian hostages. An Iraqi armed group calling itself the Green Brigade has said it is behind the abductions, and has made numerous threats and demands. After numerous hopeful signs that the three might be released, the government asked for silence on the matter as it pursued their release.
Fri May 21, 2:15 AM ET
By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqis extol what they see as their ancient Arab traditions, projecting the image of a society living by a code of honor steeped in Islamic tenets and tribal customs: the sanctity of homes, being violently abusive protective of women, male supremacy domination, swift justice and deep suspicion of everyone else on earth outsiders. That retardation mind-set accounts for some of the humiliation shock and anger Iraqis expressed at the widely publicized photos of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison being brutalized and sexually humiliated by smiling American soldiers. Something entirely unseen in the days of Saddamâs rule.
In a wider context, some Iraqis claim the U.S. military knows but intentionally ignores local traditions, swelling the ranks of insurgents and deepening distrust of the occupation. "The occupiers know the Iraqi psyche and thatâs why they are determined to humiliate (thereâs that word again) us and undermine our self-confidence," said Khawla Abdel-Wahab al-Qaisi, director of the Center of Psychological and Education Studies, a Baghdad University think-tank. "Theyâve succeeded. The Abu Ghraib photos have thrown us into acute self-doubt and frustration." Issues related to Iraqi cultural sensitivities have been at the heart of anti-U.S. sentiments well before the Abu Ghraib scandal.
For example, Marines who took charge of the restive Anbar province in March are receiving training in Arabic and Islamic culture, the idea being some understanding of local traditions is needed to win the trust of Iraqis. However, as a people whose nation is occupied by a superpower they had been taught to hate for decades under Saddam Hussein, Iraqis tend to exaggerate the "excesses" of the U.S. military as well as their own sense of cultural superiority. Whoa Nellie! Whoâd a thunk?
It is not uncommon, for example, for Iraqis to refer to U.S. soldiers as "pigs," "Jews" or "infidels." They also accuse them of corrupting Iraqi youths, distributing pornographic material and seducing Iraqi women. Ironically, the U.S. occupation and the freedoms that came with it have inspired a greater awareness of the countryâs Arab and Islamic roots, casting off vestiges of secularism promoted by Saddamâs Baathist party.
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, acknowledges that cultural "insensitivity" exists among American troops but denies that it is deliberate or systematic. "Itâs simply a matter of the differences between each of our cultures, and the fact that no matter how much training one does before arriving in Iraq, it still requires âon the groundâ experience to fully appreciate the demented proud culture the people of Iraq enjoy," Kimmitt told The Associated Press in an e-mail.
The Coalition Provisional Authority, the occupationâs civilian arm, has sought out Arabic speakers to work in Iraq to improve dealings with Iraqis. The coalitionâs second-in-command, career U.S. diplomat Richard Jones, is a fluent Arabic speaker. However, his boss, L. Paul Bremer, isnât, but he tries to endear himself to Iraqis by learning some Arabic phrases. "Ash al-Iraq. Mabrouk al-Iraq al-jadid," or "long live Iraq, congratulations on the new Iraq," are the words Bremer often uses to conclude his official speeches.
Many in Iraq trace the start of the year-old insurgency in Sunni areas to an incident that had a clear cultural dimension â a rumor last year that U.S. paratroopers were using special glasses to see through the clothes of women in Fallujah, an ultraconservative city west of Baghdad. Two days of street protests in the city left 18 Iraqis dead and scores injured when the soldiers opened fire. U.S. forces said they were fired at first but later agreed to follow the tribal custom of paying "blood money" to victimsâ families. Appeasing those who falsely accuse us is a major blunder.
House raids have been particularly hurtful to Iraqis who maintain that the practice violates the sanctity of their homes, exposes their women to strangers and, in some cases, subjects men to the humiliation (and again!) of being handcuffed and thrown to the ground by soldiers. Whenever women have been arrested, which is not often, angry protests have occurred. Perish the thought that we might be somewhat aggressive in pursuing those who seek to kill our troops.
The participation of female soldiers in security raids or in searching cars at checkpoints is demeaning to Iraqi men who arenât used to taking orders from women. Tough sugar, Bosco. We arenât about to reverse centuries of progress to appease your eggshell thin sensibilities.
The occasional damage to mosques in clashes with insurgents is routinely blamed on the Americans. Just another stunning turn of events, no?
Incidents in which troops enter mosques without taking off their shoes as is custom for Muslims cause deep offense and often lead to accusations that the Americans are crusaders trying to destroy Islam. Ghassan Hussein Salem, a psychology lecturer at Baghdad University, believes the humiliation (and again!) of Iraqis by the U.S. military is feeding violence. Any soldier who unlaces his boots before entering a mosque is a casualty waiting to happen. We donât go inside without justification. Stop using the mosques as barracks and emplacements and we wonât be entering them as often.
"It will add to the violence on the streets and will target Iraqis or Americans," he said. The perception that the American occupation is undermining Iraqi values has found its way to a poem available in flyers circulating in Baghdad this week. In the poem, by the famous poet Abdelaâal Maamoun, a fictional U.S.-backed Iraqi politician addresses an American general.
"You sir, youâve fed me dollars, you are my new father, take whatever you need and want from Iraq. Take my wife, my baby girl, or my dark-skinned neighbor," writes Maamoun. "Every one is chanting your name and because of your largesse we are able to eat and drink." Gosh, just like the good-old-days under Saddam!
The poem is accompanied by the notorious picture of Pfc. Lynndie England holding a leash around the neck of a naked Iraqi man.
#2
Fine. When we arrest someone lets give them a choice -- American style justice where you are innocent until proven guilty or Saddam stype justice where you, and your entire family are lined up along a trench and shot in the head or fed feet first into the people shreadders.
Arab diplomats said Friday they were encouraged by a U.S. decision to allow passage of a U.N. resolution criticizing Israel, saying they hoped it signaled a tougher line against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. On Wednesday, the United States abstained from a U.N. Security Council resolution demanding that Israel halt the demolition of Palestinian homes and condemning the killing of Palestinian civilians near a Gaza refugee camp. The United States usually uses its veto power to block resolutions criticizing Israel. Israel has been conducting a military offensive in Gaza in search of militants and arms-smuggling tunnels and militants. Israel raided the refugee camp less than a week after Palestinian militants killed 13 soldiers in Gaza, seven of them along the Egyptian border. Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa, speaking at a meeting of Arab foreign ministers in Tunisia, said the U.S. abstention in the U.N. vote was a positive signal but that the Bush administration needs to go further to be perceived as an "honest broker" in Mideast peace efforts. "I hope this is a message that would stress there is a change in American policy," Moussa told The Associated Press. Donât get your hopes up, buddy.
"Abstention is definitely better than the usual veto that hampers the United Nations in dealing with major issues of human rights in the occupied territories." Several Arab foreign ministers, meeting Friday in the Tunisian capital a day ahead of a weekend summit of leaders from the Arab League, also said they saw the U.S. abstention as a good sign. "I hope they (the Americans) finally realize that support of Israel under the pretext of self-defense is leaving the Israelis to commit more and more acts of aggression and further complicates and inflames the situation, said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher. No mention of Palestinian terror attacks, as usual.
"We hope that this is an indication that the U.S. is finally determined to exert its influence on the Israelis to allow the peace process to resume," he said. Of course, Arafat has nothing to do with the stalled roadmap.
The summit that starts Saturday is expected to focus on the deteriorating situation in Iraq and the recent escalation of violence in the Palestinian territories. Other items on the agenda are reform of the Arab League and a response to a U.S. proposal for political reform in the Middle East. President Bushâs plan for reform, known as the Middle East Greater Initiative, is expected to be a main topic at G-8 summit of major industrial countries June 8-10 in Sea Island, Ga. Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh has accepted an invitation to attend the G-8. The king of Bahrain, Sheik Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, also plans to attend, the official Bahraini news agency reported Friday. In Amman, a royal palace official said Jordanâs King Abdullah II had been invited, but the official did not know if the monarch would accept. Leaders of heavyweight Arab nations Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria were not invited to the G-8 discussions, according to Arab diplomats. They linked the apparent snub to the cool response those countries have given Washingtonâs push for political reforms in the Middle East. This can only be another instance of ... wait for it ... "humiliation!"
Leaders of the three countries have proposed their own plan, expected to be endorsed by the Arab summit in Tunis, calling for homegrown reforms. U.S. diplomats reached for comment in Cairo and Tunis referred the query to the U.S. State Department.
#3
Leaders of the three countries have proposed their own plan, expected to be endorsed by the Arab summit in Tunis, calling for homegrown reforms.
Homegrown reforms, planted with loving care in a field of BS. These countries just do not get it. They ought to remember that al Q could come after you! Just look at Saudis wonderful relationship with the terrorists. They give money and still get boomed. Sometimes you just cannot win.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 23:32 Comments ||
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By Sebastian Usher - BBC World media correspondent
Among those killed in the latest violence in Iraq was an employee of the Arab satellite TV station, al-Jazeera. Stop, stop ... youâre ripping my heart out!
The station, whose offices in Afghanistan and Iraq have been hit by fire from US forces, led its news bulletin with the death. Rashid Hamid Wali was killed during clashes in Karbala between American forces and insurgents. Video footage showed his body wrapped in a blanket being laid on a stretcher. The presenter said Wali was part of the al-Jazeera spy network team filming clashes between American troops and gunmen belonging to the radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadrâs militia.
Wali - an Iraqi - had arrived in Karbala just two days before. The presenter offered the stationâs sympathy to his family in these words: "In the name of its entire staff, al-Jazeera extends its deepest condolences to the family of the martyr. From God we come, and unto him we shall return." Boo-fricking-hoo! Now tell us all about how this is so "humiliating." Emotional interview
Al-Jazeera referred to Wali throughout its report as a "shahid" - a martyr - the same term it uses to describe civilians killed in Iraq and Palestinians killed by Israelis. In its bulletin at 0500 GMT, the announcer spoke to a colleague of Waliâs - Abdel Azim Muhammed. In a phone interview, he describes how he was standing near Wali on the fourth floor of their hotel in Karbala when he was shot. But after a minute or so, his emotions overcome him and he comes to a stop. The only tragedy here is that these maggots donât even have any beer to cry in.
The presenter ends the interview when it becomes clear the correspondent cannot go on.
âMistakeâ
Rashid Hamid Wali is not the first member of al-Jazeeraâs team in Iraq to be killed. Last April, one of its top correspondents, Tariq Ayoub, was killed when a US air strike hit the al-Jazeera office in Baghdad. The Americans said it was a targeting mistake, but al-Jazeera said it gave the Pentagon the exact location of its Baghdad office months before the outbreak of war. It is easy to tell that this was most definitely a "targeting mistake." The place was supposed to get hit with a MOAB, not a 500 pounder.
Al-Jazeeraâs main competitor in the Arab world, al-Arabiya, also lost two of its employees in Iraq in March. It accuses US troops of shooting them at a checkpoint. The Americans have denied responsibility. Both al-Arabiya and al-Jazeera have been heavily criticized by senior US officials for alleged espionage anti-American bias in their reporting.
But the US rejects any suggestion that their news teams may have been targeted. More than 25 people working for news organisations have died in Iraq since the US launched its war last year. The Committee to Protect Journalists has described it as the most dangerous place in the world to work as a journalist. Now thereâs a BGO (Blinding Glimpse of the Obvious). To quote the famous western philosopher known as Popeye, "Ya pays ya money and ya takes yer chanskes."
...
Hilas also said he witnessed an Army translator having sex with a boy at the prison. He said the boy was between 15 and 18 years old. Someone hung sheets to block the view, but Hilas said he heard the boyâs screams and climbed a door to get a better look. Hilas said he watched the assault and told investigators that it was documented by a female soldier taking pictures.
...
Hilas also said he watched as Graner and others sodomized a detainee with a phosphoric light.
...
Mustafa Jassim Mustafa, detainee No. 150542, told military investigators he also witnessed the phosphoric-light assault. He said it was around the time of Ramadan, the holiest period of the Muslim year, when he heard screams coming from a cell below. Mustafa said he looked down to see a group of soldiers holding the detainee down and sodomizing him with the light.
...
The detainee said the soldiers eventually brought him to a room and sodomized him with a nightstick. "They were taking pictures of me during all these instances," he told the investigators.
...
"Do you believe in anything?" he said the soldier asked. "I said to him, âI believe in Allah.â So he said, "But I believe in torture and I will torture you.â "
...
Do any idiots still think that nothing more than mere "hazing" happened in Abu Ghraib?
May Allah comfort the pain of the tortured and raped in Abu Ghraib -- may vengeance be taken upon all the demonspawn that participated in these crimes against humanity.
And against all the bastards that excused them.
Hand Graner and the rest of the villains to the same Iraqi court that will try Saddam.
#1
Aris, this stuff is terrible. I agree, we must take steps to stop it. The difference between them and us, I've always maintained, is that we care, we have higher moral principles - and, ultimately, they do not. HOWEVER, that does not excuse this kind of behavior, nor is it a reason to keep the gloves on in a situation where we need to kick some jihadi ass. But please remember that not all Americans are like these, and keep in mind that this kind of thing has been going on in the Middle East for a long time. This does not excuse us in any way, but it is telling that these kinds of stories are only emphasized when America is involved, no?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 12:38 Comments ||
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#2
And, as was pointed out elsewhere, we are taking steps to prosecute those responsible. The Arab regimes obviously do not.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 12:40 Comments ||
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#3
Aris-
First, let me say that without question, any charge this serious should be taken seriously and investigated seriously.
Secondly - this does not sound like an American. I am not saying that Americans are not capable of this, but I am saying that the words and phrasing used here do not sound American.
Third, and I mean no disrespect to you - the fluorescent (or phosphoric) light story is almost certainly untrue. There are 'urban legends' here in the States about homosexuals coming to hospital emergency rooms with lights in the same places. I have spoken to doctors and nurses alike and they have said the same thing: the muscles involved would crush the light, especially if the person was trying to fight it. And if the person was fighting it, the light would almost certainly be broken long before penetration.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/21/2004 12:42 Comments ||
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#4
Allah likes torture and rape Aris.
At least that's what Muhammed thought, as he and his followers did alot of raping and torturing in their day, Allah sanctioned of course.
So I'm not sure why you think "Allah" will "comfort" anybody.
And of course, soldiers who did what you posted will be tried like the criminals they are!
And what Mohammed thought about God is irrelevant, since if God exists then he probably exists regardless of our belief in him or not. So, if God/Allah/Theos exists, may he comfort the tortured and raped there.
The Doctor> "The difference between them and us, I've always maintained, is that we care, we have higher moral principle"
Actually the "them" in this case is not Saddam or Al Qaeda, but the people detained in this prison, in which case I've no reason to believe they don't have much higher moral principles than that small part of "us" that was torturing them.
Yeah, I *obviously* know not all Americans are like this. I obviously know that most Americans are decent folk -- the same way that most people are decent folk everywhere.
Unfortunately, I wish that I also knew that none of the Rantburgers were like this -- more than one Rantburgers have excused the tortures of Abu Ghraib after all.
#7
These scum should be made to run in full gear with a nightstick shoved up their ass until they drop dead.
They shame every soldier who has ever worn the uniform.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 12:57 Comments ||
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#8
Yeah, I *obviously* know not all Americans are like this.
Could've fooled me. What about your blanket condemnation of the entire American army in another thread below?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 13:01 Comments ||
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#9
"What about your blanket condemnation of the entire American army in another thread below?"
I never made such a blanket condemnation of the entire American army. I simply said that I couldn't trust such torturers to not exist in other prisons as well.
You have a nasty habit of utterly failing to understand my words.
#10
Crimes against humanity? Better lay off the janjaweed Aris. Crimes were committed, but if you're looking for crimes against humanity there are plenty of mass graves still being excavated - or does that not fit in with your world view?
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/21/2004 13:05 Comments ||
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#11
"Yeah, I *obviously* know not all Americans are like this. I obviously know that most Americans are decent folk -- the same way that most people are decent folk everywhere."
Absolutely agreed. And we will continue to do our laundry in public as we have been doing since our inception. Weeding out the bad apples is a never-ending process, but we do it - openly. WaPo is an exceptionally poor source for factual data on that process, however. You'll need a shovel and a series of filters (not to mention nose plugs, IMO) to get the best results.
#12
I simply said that I couldn't trust such torturers to not exist in other prisons as well.
Can you trust that you won't get hit by a meteor when you step outside today? Better stay home, but even that won't protect you.
I'll entertain your logic for a second: Rest assured, with all the shit coming out recently about abuses in Abu G., there ain't no abuse going on right now, anywhere.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 13:20 Comments ||
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#13
...these crimes against humanity...
By the way, Aris, this is where my outrage at the abuse begins to dim before my outrage at the outrage. These were crimes against humans, not crimes against humanity.
I have said in other places that what happened at Abu Ghraib may have been WRONG, illegal, and stupid, but it was not torture. Rape, on the other hand, is definitely torture.
But I'm not going to let my disgust at it lead me down the moral equivalence road to hell. These were not "crimes against humanity", and these actions do not make us as bad as Saddam. I know you have not come right out and said that, Aris, but plenty of people have.
For further information on this topic, consult the boy who cried wolf, if you can find him.
#14
Do any idiots still think that nothing more than mere "hazing" happened in Abu Ghraib?
I guess I must be an idiot, Aris, especially when the story was written and published in the Washington Post.
Hilas, like other detainees interviewed by the military, said he could not identify some of the soldiers because they either covered their name patches or did not wear uniforms.
You failed to include this, Aris. People in a military prison without uniforms, or with covered name patches.
Even though the story says 'Hilas' witnessed the rape, the story also said Hilas did not see the rape. What kind of 'investigative writing' is this in which a prisoner is called a witness to a crime with one small detail: he did not actually see the crime take place.
Another detainee told military investigators that American soldiers sodomized and beat him. The detainee, whose name is being withheld by The Post because he is an alleged victim of a sexual assault,
WP thinks its necessary to protect a victim of one assault but not another, yet thinks nothing of naming American names.
Why is this material being released? Why did the WP find it necessary to protect Iraqi crime victim but doesn''t see its way to protecting an investigation?
There is no national shield law concerning journalists, and investigative documents have fallen into the hands of of people who care nothing for all the soldiers who did not commit crimes.
They shame every soldier who has ever worn the uniform.
Will you stop it? I wore the uniform and I can promise 99.999 percent of people who wore the uniform never committed crimes. If these allegations are true, and I don't know that they are, they don't shame anyone in the military for me.
a) Troops got out of control.
b) Commander was removed
c) crime investigated
Game over.
We go on to win the war in Iraq.
Bonus points: The DoD person who released these documents gets cashiered and charged with crimes him/herself.
#15
Rafael> "Can you trust that you won't get hit by a meteor when you step outside today?"
Quite a bit better than I can trust that such torture didn't occur in other prisons as well, actually.
Angie Schultz> "Crimes against humanity" is an exaggeration but only because of the *scale* involved, not because of the kind of actions -- namely that it wasn't against the entirety of a civilian population but only against the inmates of a prison. But rape and torture are include in the way that one can commit crimes against humanity. Once again -- yeah, that was an exaggeration, but because of the scale, not the actions.
And it *was* torture. "Torture means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions; "
And those actions obviously don't make you as bad as Saddam, because you hadn't authorized them. But they do make the specific individuals of Graner & co. as bad as Saddam IMO.
#16
Scale? What scale? Are you citing one dubious report or the actions of a handful of soldier as scale? Compared to what? There is no comparison...period.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/21/2004 13:34 Comments ||
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#17
Learn the definition of scale. And oh, for god's sake, shut up about "dubious report", the images of torture come one after the other.
#18
But they do make the specific individuals of Graner & co. as bad as Saddam IMO.
Which is why they're being court-martialed and will likely serve long prison sentences. Gosh, odd how that works.
Now, how about the sex-slave rings operated by UN "peace" keeping forces? You gonna get as worked up about that as you do about this?
Get a fucking grip, Aris.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/21/2004 13:44 Comments ||
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#19
There is no national shield law concerning journalists, and investigative documents have fallen into the hands of of people who care nothing for all the soldiers who did not commit crimes.
Those would be the defense lawyers. Given the strength of the evidence, they're angling for Kerry's election and a political pardon.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/21/2004 13:47 Comments ||
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#20
Quite a bit better than I can trust that such torture didn't occur in other prisons as well, actually.
Well, you're gonna have a fit when you find out about the Holocaust during Hitler's reign. Now that was torture.
You're raising a stink over nothing. There's probably people in the US army that would *like* to torture prisoners. Does that shake your confidence in the entire army? There's probably people having evil thoughts as we speak. Should we abandon the planet because of it?
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 13:49 Comments ||
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#21
The assholes at prison are just that assholes! crimes against humanity? from what we know no one was KILLED there.
I dont see much diferent from some universities and police/military corps entrance "parties". What is a shock because in war violent acts usually are revenge and have a propose , not the gratuitity exposed in this psycho behaviour.
#22
Rafael> "Which is why they're being court-martialed and will likely serve long prison sentences."
Did I ever deny that? You know we'd save quite a bit of time, if you people read what I actually wrote rather than imagine me of writing what I didn't write.
"Now, how about the sex-slave rings operated by UN "peace" keeping forces? You gonna get as worked up about that as you do about this? "
If I see people here excuse slavery the same way they've excused torture, yeah I'll get as worked up about that as I did about this.
In fact I actually *do* remember getting worked up about slavery in some thread several weeks ago.
Rafael> You keep on babbling about some supposedly collective condemnation I supposedly made. Why should I care to defend statements I never actually made?
#23
And oh, for god's sake, shut up about "dubious report", the images of torture come one after the other. ...yeah like the faked ones?
Learn the definition of scale ha!...funny coming from you.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/21/2004 13:58 Comments ||
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#24
"Actually the "them" in this case is not Saddam or Al Qaeda, but the people detained in this prison".
Lets be specific here, in the section of the prison where this happened the prisoners were oriegn fighters captured in Iraq and ex-Bathists. These were not Saddaam but they were his thugs and many of them may have been Al Queda.
The doesn't excuse the harrassment stories that certainly happened or the torture stories (if these latest ones are true), but don't paint these thugs as jaywalkers that were rounded up and abused.
#25
Aris,
Listen Greek boy! I love the fact that valuable information came from the abuse. If it saved one Americans life I am all for the abuse. Abuse the hell out of them. Anyway, sodomy is something I would figure you would like to hear about Greek boy, considering it is your nations favorite pastime! What, your bummed cause you were not part of the receiving end of the information gathering techniques?
#26
Crimes against humanity" is an exaggeration but only because of the *scale* involved...
But when speaking of "crimes against humanity", scale is everything. Systematic rape of women by invading armies is a crime against humanity; isolated rapes (of anyone) -- however horrible -- are not.
"Torture means... Let's get real. Your definition is so vague as to be meaningless, and essentially boils down to "the intentional infliction of pain is torture, except when it's not". No doubt that definition comes from some reputable source, but there is plenty of room for disagreement on how "severe" physical or mental suffering must be to count as torture.
But they do make the specific individuals of Graner & co. as bad as Saddam IMO. Bull. Saddam would've had the prisoners tortured slowly and professionally until they died, in wholesale lots. Graner does sound like a nasty piece of work, and the others not much better, but they're not Saddam.
I'll also point out, as others have, that this story is very suspicious. My BS meter lit up at the "sodomizing a boy" part. In addition to the fishiness of where the witnesses were, and how they were able to see things -- and leaving aside the important issue of what this guy has to gain by lying, which is a great deal -- there's also the matter of simple misinterpretation. Could the "light stick sodomy" actually be a body cavity search? I'm not going to dismiss the story as a complete fabrication, but I think a certain amount of skepticism is in order.
#27
Funny how that works. We KNOW there are photos and even more likely, statements which have been planted/doctored. Yet, none of this has been 'investigated' by any news outlet, except NewMax.
Don't you think we oughta get to the heart of this matter first, as it is far more likely to affect troops in the field Ignoring it means we basically still have a rat in the house.
#28
Why should I care to defend statements I never actually made?
"It does seem a problem when one power can't trust its allies to treat prisoners humanely. One solution is to hand over jurisdiction over what prisons exist in Afghanistan to Germany. And have no prisoner transferred to Gitmo instead ofcourse."
Your own words from a different thread. Paraphrase: "No one can trust those nasty Americans".
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 14:07 Comments ||
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#29
"I love the fact that valuable information came from the abuse."
That's not what I heard. I heard that not one bit of valuable information came from the abuse, that all of the info was called "trivial". Where's your sources that valuable info came from it?
"If it saved one Americans life I am all for the abuse. Abuse the hell out of them."
That's why you (and by "you", I mean you *personally*, lest Rafael once again tries to present me as an anti-American bigot) are as evil as Saddam.
And call it "torture", as it is, you coward with words.
Rex Mundi> "yeah like the faked ones?" Once again there's no need for you to display your Egyptian descent so clearly. I know already that you come from the land of de Nile.
#30
if you people read what I actually wrote rather than imagine me of writing what I didn't write.
I gotta hand it to you though...your insults and condescension are not thinly veiled. Why, you could almost skip over them if not paying attention. (That's complimenting your writing ability, btw)
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 14:14 Comments ||
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#31
Rafael> Which was in response to the problem of Germans not trusting American treatment of prisoners. And my immediately next post, ofcourse explain that I have no way of actually *knowing* that the German system is any better than the American one ofcourse. Which is why I also suggested Red Cross to be able to visit everywhere at surprise inspections, regardless of nationality.
So, cut and choose, and quote out of context if you will. But I did give a solution to the problem of Germany not trusting how you deal with the prisoners captured in Afghanistan. I didn't see *you* having any better ideas, other than "Just trust us".
International control of these prisons was an idea that had occured to me before this.
#32
Aris, choosing not to swallow your screech about crimes against humanity isn't denial...it's perspective. And when you feel the need to explain your punchlines it's time to look for new material.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/21/2004 14:20 Comments ||
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#33
Aris, choosing not to swallow your screech about crimes against humanity isn't denial...it's perspective.
I've already admitted that "crimes against humanity" was an exaggeration, so it's not perspective either. It's trying to hang onto a strawman.
But choosing not to accept that most of the photos are real *is* denial.
And when you feel the need to explain your punchlines it's time to look for new material.
Yeah well, I felt I had to make allowances for the intelligence, and lack thereof, of my intended audience.
#34
Aris: It's another data point. We've already established that abuse occurred, officers and NCOs were negligent in their duties, and that the system for dealing with prisoner complaints was inadequate. As we continue our "investigation" hear at RB, what kinds of questions should we be asking? Does this testimony correlate with other known data (lightsticks, yes; male rape, no). Is the witness credible (jihadis have been known to stretch the truth a little, like this doctor who knew all about the marriage party "massacre," even though he was 250 km away)?
BTW, the US military does consider hazing to be abuse. Why? Precisely because what starts as hazing so often ends in this sort of travesty. I knew NCOs who lost stripes for relatively mild hazing incidents.
Prisons are bad places where bad thing happen. I read prison abuse stories from all of the westernized countries, including the EU(third story down). These sorts of problems won't end until there are no more prisons.
#35
*snicker* Once again, a mega-thread from Hell.
The Internation Red Cross Thingy?
Lol! Oh yeah, that'd be in the same vein as believing everything WaPo & Co publish. What is it about "international" that makes an opinion so much more worthy? Nothing. Not. A. Fucking. Thing(y). Almost makes me want to use the "I' word you love so much. Lol!
C'mon, Aris - get a credit card or send a Western Union payment or whatever to Fred. Make it HUGE. You eat more bandwidth through your posts than any other individual. If you haven't the personal integrity to support your habits you should cease and desist out of sheer embarassment.
You've posted your position(s) enough times to engage 10 or 20 people - why don't you write a book instructing the entire world on morality?
This isn't a question of Fred telling you to leave - he's far too generous a host to do so - it's about the guest having the good grace to know when to leave, or pony up some serious rent money.
#36
May God comfort the pain of the tortured and raped by Saddam, and may vengeance be taken upon all the demonspawn that tried to prevent us taking down Saddam.
How about...prosecuting the offenders. Shit, now there's a concept.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 14:35 Comments ||
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#38
.com, in all fairness to Aris (this is my impartial persona speaking), he did say that he was a grad student. In other words, he doesn't have much money.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 14:38 Comments ||
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#39
But choosing not to accept that most of the photos are real *is* denial.
Wrong.
The existance of fake photos taint the whole pool. I dont know how things work in Eurostan, but in the USA, if photos of a crime were released along with doctored photos, the whole element is tainted. A judge can be easily persuaded to throw out all the photos since some of them cannot be verified in their authenticity... unless you can establish the photos, one by one, as definitive evidence of a crime taking place.
Right now, we are being flooded with photos; yet we are not told if these material are being used as evidence, or if they cannot be used as evidence because of authenticity problems.
If you cannot establish who shot what photos, when, etc, then none of the photos should be used, either as leaked materials to the press or as 'evidence' of a crime taking place., and their presence can easily be presumed doctored/planted and therefore not legitimate as news or evidence.
And you cannot do any of the above. Our vaunted socialist press, as much as they would love to kill more Americans with these inflammatory photos, have yet to step up to the plate and fulfill their journalistic duties with regard to the photos.
Personally, I think we have a rat in the house in Iraq, but thats just my crazy theory.
#40
Rafael - If you want to sponsor Aris, be my guest - er, make that Fred's guest. No one forces him to do anything on RB, it's his choice and ego, nothing more. Make it huge. See Capitalism, Honor, Culpability, Personal Responsibility, etc. ;-)
#41
Aris, Graner is not a homsexual and there are NO pictures of the guards having homosexual intercourse. Given that there were TONS of sex pictures there would be at least one that showed a homsexual act if there had been any? They didn't seem too shy about showing every which way you can hetersexual sex why not the gay stuff if it was going on? This has all the makings of an urban (homo fantasy) legend. To date ALL of the photos involving sexual intercourse have involved consesual girl/guy sex.
#42
All of these "new picures" and "new info", but it still seems to be just the same group of shit-eating-grin wearing losers everytime. I am not convinced that this (by this I mean the excessive abuse)is widespread, but rather that the individuals that have already been apprehended (at least one already convicted) were just very busy little tormentors.
1. Following Aris' logic that these are crimes against humanity, then so were the fajullah murders, the nick Berg murders, and Saddam's entire regime, since these are far worse in that people lost their lives. We were justified, at the time, to invade and stop those crimes. If Aris denies this, he's applying the rules differently, based on who he's accusing, and thus is a hypocrite as well as being clearly incompetent to judge anything.
2. We may have higher goals and standards, but we must be judged in the same way and on the same scale as everyone else. For instance, olympic athletes may differ in committments and personal goals, but when the gun sounds, the one who has higher goals and trains harder should not be arbitrarily given a handicap, or the less ambitious given a head start. Anything else is patently unfair and conceals an agenda of injustice, robbing the "judge" of any moral standing.
3. Scale does matter. Otherwise, a Greek murderer is equated to Hitler, and thus equating Greece to Hitler's Germany. Aris may try to wriggle out by arguing that Greece would judge the murderer, but his excuse equally applies to the United States because these "nonmurderers" are ALSO being tried. An excuse that works for Greece, but "magically" and "conveniently" does not apply to america, IS HYPOCRISY. RANK HYPOCRISY.
4. Aris is guilty of sloppy and poor reasoning: to argue that "the few are guilty, therefore all are guilty" is the core logic of racisim and bigotry. This application was done without thought, without consideration, without looking at the facts, without justice, without reason, WITHOUT A BRAIN. We're better than you, Aris, since we didn't attack Saudi Arabia upon finding that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.
#44
#9 Aris says:"You have a nasty habit of utterly failing to understand my words."!
Maybe it is because you have a nasty habit of being ambiguous in the assemblage of your words.
HTH!
-AR
Posted by: Analog Roam ||
05/21/2004 16:56 Comments ||
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#45
Aris-Clarification:
Beatings, sodomy, rape, murder--yes these are all crimes.
Being frightened with dogs? This is intimidation.
Being forced to wear underwear on your head? Being paraded nude in front of others? Soldiers forced to simulate sex publicly or be stacked upon each other? These acts are humiliation, not torture. Good can actually come from this--IF the prisoner victims are able to see a parallel with the way they were treated and the way they treat women in their own Islamic societies in situations of humiliation and helplessness. I doubt that these prisoners will use this opportunity, however, to advance the Islamic/Iraqi culture in terms of consciousness of what is humane.
As far as all people being capable of evil, I agree with you. Why does it seem so common though that laughter and glee accompany news of atrocities against Westerners in the Islamic world? These reactions DO differentiate our cultures.
#46
Jules, it may only be effective if they're told that that's what they do to their women. Otherwise, they'll never get the idea. It must be explained to them.
I'm not sure where I end up in this debate. I think, Aris, you may be blowing things slightly out of proportion (and at the very beginning, when I said them, I meant our enemy - Islamists and other assorted dictators and evildoers - in general, not the people in the prison specifically, though they may fall under the heading) with the "crimes against humanity" vs. "crimes against humans." However, I do find it rather odd - I may have said this before - that there are so many photos, so much documentation. Even if they were getting a thrill out of it, I find it highly unlikely that they were so dumb that they didn't realize that it might leak out. Hell, Pam and Tommy Lee learned that the hard way, and they were only taking home movies. Lesson from their story and others like it: things that sell will get out. I do realize it's easy for me to sit here at my computer and mull this stuff over, but come on. They couldn't have not known that it was something others wouldn't have approved of. Why make a record of it to incriminate themselves later? There's something wrong with the picture.
And as for the fake photos, Badanov's right - if some are fake, then every one of them is suspect until we can determine which ones are real and which ones are Photoshopped (ah, modern corporate products verbs . . . have you Googled today?). And I find the release of - what was it, "hundreds of new photos"? - today a wee bit suspicious.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 19:12 Comments ||
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#47
Ptah> Following Aris' logic that these are crimes against humanity,
Are you intentionally or in ignorance ignoring the fact that I admitted the "crimes against humanity" thing an exaggeration? A hyperbole?
then so were the fajullah murders, the nick Berg murders, and Saddam's entire regime, since these are far worse in that people lost their lives.
Lives have been lost in Abu Ghraib also actually. And I could nitpick the rest of your sentence to death, but there's no point to it.
We were justified, at the time, to invade and stop those crimes.
No shit, you think? I've actually stated several times that I believe that indeed I feel the USA had every moral right to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein, as well as every other dictatorial regime in the face of the world.
If Aris denies this,
I don't.
he's applying the rules differently,
I'm not.
based on who he's accusing, and thus is a hypocrite
I'm not.
Analog Roam> I remember about a year or so ago when I had ranted in a Greek forum about the Greek police's treatment of some immigrant. It wasn't even torture at that case, I was simply angered that coming to the scene of a crime, they had immediately grabbed and handcuffed the foreigner who actually was the victim of the case. I don't remember all the details anymore.
My point is that some people still said I was exaggerating, etc, same as here, but I don't remember anyone being stupid enough to call me an anti-Greek bigot.
But here to rant about some Americans' doings or to show distrust about the way the army treats its prisoner -- and suddenly I'm an anti-American bigot.
When I had asked in an earlier thread "Do you have the wisdom?" Rafael likewise pretty much said that I was implying that Europeans were genetically more intelligent than Americans.
*sarcasm* What excellent perception that guy. He doesn't only read between the lines, he *rearranges* the lines, shakes them upside down and then finds the more twisted way possible of reinterpreting them to find bigotry and reacism therein. */sarcasm*.
So, no dear Analog boy, I doubt it's my words that are the problem here, not in the 90% of the cases atleast. I think it's much more likely that the problem is the nationalistic touchiness that often fills Rantburg like a thick smoke. And the need of many to stereotype the other.
#49
Rafael likewise pretty much said that I was implying that Europeans were genetically more intelligent than Americans.
That was in reference to that German schlep who wrote something about American intellect, or something like that. The story was posted here on Rantburg but I don't have the time to hunt it down.
I think many here will agree that Europeans tend to think they're smarter than Americans. Sometimes it's implied.
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 21:33 Comments ||
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To the people who think the Fallujah thing was worse because "people died there". As opposed to the non-people that were beaten to death by their torturers, I guess.
#53
#47: Oh really, Aris? so what am I to make of "May Allah comfort the pain of the tortured and raped in Abu Ghraib -- may vengeance be taken upon all the demonspawn that participated in these crimes against humanity."? You never did DENY it, just admitted that you exagerated "Lives have been lost in Abu Ghraib also actually." Cite the deaths that were caused in this incident. Links please, not a picture that could be saddam-era, and thus published with as little investigation as the Iraqui woman "rape" photos. You MAY have a point that we have an agena, but why the gullible assumption that NOBODY ELSE has an agenda?
I think it's much more likely that the problem is the nationalistic touchiness that often fills Rantburg like a thick smoke. Oh ABSOLUTELY. Without a DOUBT. Can't disagree with you there in any particular. When it comes to nationalism, we poor americans can't hold a candle to you and Murat. We do crazy stuff like court martialing our own soldiers on crimes we discover, embarassing our nation in ways you two would NEVER dream of doing.
#48 Spiffo: There are three purposes to make an argument: to find the truth, to discover a better way to attain virtue, or to tear down and condemn. This was a legitimate article that Aris posted, but his comments indicated to me that his purpose was not the first two, since he took an accusation by an Islamist and treated it as gospel truth. As usual, .com (#5) was on the money. Its delusional to pretend that an argument with the third purpose is equivalent to the first two, and thus attack it without asking proper questions about the competence and fairness of this self-selected "judge".
I'll admit to a bit of Jacksonian annoyance here: I'm a fair arguer while the other person stays fair, but the moment they start passing off bigoted swill as argument is when I drop the pretense that their arguments are "proper" and deserve a respect they failed to retain.
#54
Abaddon, Ptah asked if I do and I said I did not. Question, answer. Simple as that. If you are calling that "reduced", well yeah, reduced is right: Ptah reduced all his criticism of me to "If you did that, then you're a hypocrite", and the adequate reply was reduced to "I did not and so I am not."
But like Rafael and others, you seem incapable of parsing a sentence, abaddon. But I guess I forget the rampant stupidity that's another of the trademarks of many of the people here.
#55
"You never did DENY it, just admitted that you exagerated "
Um, distinction without a difference anyone? But if you want a straightforward "denial", very well, here you go: It's an inaccure exaggeration to call the actions of these people "crimes against humanity", because the term is usually applied when the crimes pertain to much wider segments of the civilian population. If the people involved had done the same crimes against wider segments of the civilian population, *then* it would have been "crimes against humanity".
Happier now? I don't see how the above is any different to what I stated in posts above already.
"Cite the deaths that were caused in this incident"
Which incident? Unless I'm very much mistaken in my understood translation of the German, there's a US-issued certificate that labels that man to have died in his sleep. Click the link after.
"When it comes to nationalism, we poor americans can't hold a candle to you and Murat. We do crazy stuff like court martialing our own soldiers on crimes we discover, embarassing our nation in ways you two would NEVER dream of doing"
I rest my case. When it comes to nationalism, it's you who assumes that an attack against some Americans as individuals is an attack against the whole of America, and it's you who thinks that a comparison between people somehow transforms into a comparison between nations. Aka "nationalism". You think that everything, every idea, every criticism, personal or notl, resolves around your nation. Yeah, Greece as a whole (or Turkey) may be more nationalistic than America as a whole. But that's *irrelevant*, because I didn't condemn America as nationalistic. I condemned Rantburg and many of the people here.
And as a sidenote, Rantburg is not representative of America either btw. I somehow doubt that half the Americans here had voted for Gore.
"You MAY have a point that we have an agena, but why the gullible assumption that NOBODY ELSE has an agenda?"
I know that many people have agendas. But I also see the photos, which nobody official has actually yet claimed to be false, because they know they aren't. So I'm supposed to accept the word of y'all instead, whose claims of the photos being false go against the word both of the actual people accused and the US administration -- based on what? Your sheer will to believe in the falsehood? You do believe, you do believe in fairies. But I don't. I believe in the undisputed evidence of my eyes.
So unless you find me someone actually involved in the case, defendant prosecutor or admin that claims one of those photos of Abu Ghraib to be fake, then I will accept them as real.
And urge that ALL the photos be made public, because I'm getting quite tired of the denial.
#56
Really, Aris? First it was a "crime against humanity," then it was just a question of "scale?" By saying the latter, you didn't say the former? Funny how that works...
Ptah does have a point regarding your application of scale: But here to rant about some Americans' doings or to show distrust about the way the army treats its prisoner -- and suddenly I'm an anti-American bigot.
Yes, you are. You jump from one, to the many--or at least from the few to the multitudes. What "army" did this? Are you saying it was "army" policy? That's exactly the thing Ptah was accusing you of, and you were screaming "did not."
And if you're not applying the rules differently, then you're at least applying them selectively. Where is the outrage against Berg's murder?
"parse a sentence?" Then you'd better get going with those sentences, bucko. I can't work with what's not there.
#57
"By saying the latter, you didn't say the former?"
Somehow I imagined that by claiming earlier words of mine to have been exaggerations, I admit to have exaggerated.
Ofcourse in your little world, logic might work differently and someone who admits to have exaggerated isn't actually admitting to an exaggeration, but admitting to something different instead.
---
"You jump from one, to the many--or at least from the few to the multitudes. "
Not I actually leapt from a few *here*, to the possibility of a few elsewhere as well.
Ofcourse you want to believe that all the bad apples in the US army happened to have concentrated in this one part of this one prison -- perhaps you want to believe that similar "systemic problems" in other location might not lead to similar situations arising.
In short, you want to believe there's not a chance of this happening elsewhere. I wish I could believe that too.
"That's exactly the thing Ptah was accusing you of,"
Actually Ptah kept on rambling bizarrely and insanely, on and on and on claiming I said things I never claimed. I stopped him at his first false point and ignored the rest of his post as the trash it was.
And yeah, this is condensension and contempt on my part.
"Where is the outrage against Berg's murder? "
When I see someone supporting it, the way I've seen people here support the torture of Abu Ghraib, you may be sure I'll be outraged for that support as certainly as I've been outraged for the support of the torture.
#58
Heck folks, until the courts play this out, it's all hearsay. Those who truly screwed up will get punished, end of story. Military courts are pretty quick and efficient in my experience about taking care of business - and being fair about it.
As far as hazing vs torture, I've seen some hazing, hell, even been hazed by the pros a few times. Hazing/intimidation is not torture. Raper is torture (if true, which I doubt) and any soldier convicted of butt-slamming some 18 yr old should be shot.
Now, the soddomy via phosphorescent light story is amusing, no phospor light is going to get up some dude's ass without busting, otoh, maybe this guy meant a 'chemlight' which is a hard plastic cyalume stick about a one foot long and half inch wide - we use them all the time at night to mark paths, air strips, & now possible to stick them up some jihadi's arse.
Good thread though, spent the last 15 min's lmao at the back and forth between you all.
#59
But if it'll make you happier, Abaddon, for me to answer to Ptah's trash points, here I go:
"3. Scale does matter. Otherwise, a Greek murderer is equated to Hitler, and thus equating Greece to Hitler's Germany"
Wow! Nationalism as its very core, where the comparison of people turns into comparison of countries. Well, I'm quite comfortable with equating several Greek murderers or philo-Nazi Greek politicians (e.g. Karatzaferis) to Hitler --because I feel confident they'd have the will, even though they happen not to have the power. But why in the world does the existence of the villain make the country villainous?
"Aris may try to wriggle out by arguing that Greece would judge the murderer, but his excuse equally applies to the United States because these "nonmurderers" are ALSO being tried."
Indeed. Yet again Ptah (like other idiots here in the past, like Rafael) claims something quite obvious and true and seems to believe that I somehow disputed it. So it only leaves the impression that I somehow condemned the whole of America WHEN YOU CAN'T FIND A SINGLE POST OF MINE TO HAVE DONE SO?
"An excuse that works for Greece, but "magically" and "conveniently" does not apply to america, IS HYPOCRISY. RANK HYPOCRISY"
Since I've actually claimed that Greece is worse off in pretty much everything than America (with the exception of the death penalty), I very much wonder where he found any case where I actually tried to excuse Greece for something, *anything* that I didn't excuse America?
Once again -- second false impression Ptah attempts to make -- namely that I somehow am hypocritical about Greece's failings making her excuses that I don't make the USA. I wonder if he can find a single example of the same.
"4) Aris is guilty of sloppy and poor reasoning: to argue that "the few are guilty, therefore all are guilty"
But I never argued that. Not once. I could believe that Ptah has just lied against me, but I think I'll again choose to simply believe him an idiot.
See now, why my contempt towards all this post of Ptah's and his bizarre allegations? My preferred reaction would have been to treat it as I treated Jen's goatfucking insults. Silence.
But you seem to have wished it, so I oblige. "Nope, I didn't, nope I haven't" is what this whole reply of mine reduces to.
#60
I'm sorry Aris, I can't understand what you're saying until you get that big schlange out of your mouth.
"Exaggeration" assumes at least the barest grain of truth before aggrandizement. You hardly admitted you exaggerated--and didn't at all answer the very legitimate points of contention about your definition of "torture," bizarre moral equivalency, and sense of scale.
Not I actually leapt from a few *here*, to the possibility of a few elsewhere as well. Ofcourse you want to believe that all the bad apples in the US army happened to have concentrated in this one part of this one prison -- perhaps you want to believe that similar "systemic problems" in other location might not lead to similar situations arising. In short, you want to believe there's not a chance of this happening elsewhere
See, that's the part where I have trouble undersatnding you with that cock in your mouth. Maybe say it again, in the King's English, with attention to that "parsing" bit your were mentioning earlier.
Ptah had more meaningful points in one post than you've had in the last week. I haven't given up on you--I just want to remark upon some points for improvement.
#61
The definition of torture I used is the definition of the International Criminal Court.
"Exaggeration" assumes at least the barest grain of truth before aggrandizement.
To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate: To enlarge or increase to an abnormal degree:
Maybe say it again, in the King's English, with attention to that "parsing" bit your were mentioning earlier.
Besides the typo at the beginning where "No, I" turned into "Not I" the rest is quite good English.
Ptah had more meaningful points in one post than you've had in the last week.
Too bad none of his meaningful points were adressed to the real me. They were addressed to to some fictional version of me who hypocritically excuses Greece's failings, who attacks and condemns the whole of America for the actions of a few, and who thought that the USA didn't have the moral right to overthrow Saddam.
In short they were addressed to some stereotypical anti-American of the kind many Rantburgers would feel more comfortable if I actually was one.
Ptah made a very valid logical point of extension. If you can assume (as you did) that the American servicemen in this controversy were just "as bad as Saddam," then by extension Ptah can certainly ask you if feel that your average Greek assmaster is just "as bad as Hitler." Maybe you don't feel that Saddam and Hitler are comparable--but that's something you should have considered before deciding to attack the argument as you did.
So, Aris, are Greek anarchists terrorists or freedom fighters? Would you excuse the interrogation methods of Greek authorities if they seemed at all similar to the alleged methods of Americans in Iraq? Pick a side, please.
the few are guilty, therefore all are guilty" Please, Aris, you did it again even as I was speaking with you. You know, from the one, to the many; from the few, to the all. You talk about the soldiers, and then America. You say that because this alleged happening was unjust, the war is wrong, etc etc.
But what's up with this obsession about nationalism? Is it bad, or something different? Or is it only bad when it's Americans being nationalistic? Why should Americans be denied something allowed for every other people on G-d's green earth? And how is America being "nationalistic" in Iraq? You don't mean "colonial," do you?
#64
then by extension Ptah can certainly ask you if feel that your average Greek assmaster is just "as bad as Hitler."
I don't understand what "assmaster" means, but I already said that I feel quite comfortable to call several Greek people "as bad as Hitler".
"So, Aris, are Greek anarchists terrorists or freedom fighters? "
Terrorists.
Would you excuse the interrogation methods of Greek authorities if they seemed at all similar to the alleged methods of Americans in Iraq?
No.
Please, Aris, you did it again even as I was speaking with you
Ah, you are a liar then. I was wondering if you were an idiot or a liar.
You say that because this alleged happening was unjust, the war is wrong, etc etc.
NO, I NEVER ONCE SAID THAT, YOU FUCKING LIAR.
But what's up with this obsession about nationalism? Is it bad, or something different?
At its best it's no more than a mild annoying ethnocentrism, but it's often as bad as racism, dearie, and often much more deadly. Imagine if every comment I made was attributed to my race, the same way people here have seen fit to attribute it to my nation.
Or is it only bad when it's Americans being nationalistic? Why should Americans be denied something allowed for every other people on G-d's green earth?
Oh, it was pretty bad when the Serbs went nationalistic and they drowned all of Yugoslavia in blood, I'm sure you'll agree. And when the the Greeks and Turks go nationalistic on each others' asses that's pretty bad too. And when the Irish Catholics murder the Protestants and vice versa, that's not a religious dispute, that's nationalism, dearie.
And how is America being "nationalistic" in Iraq?
I never said it was. I said many of the Rantburgers were nationalistic.
#65
This issue is like beating a dead horse and shall be knocked of the front page, if just one attempt is made by a Muslim suicide bomber in any America city.
Wake up and focus on the enemy not the smoke screen in effect assisting the Islamic terrorists as 'victims'. The real victims are not being reported on. Why? We are in a war, in case the leftwing media forgot.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/22/2004 0:51 Comments ||
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#66
"I said many of the Rantburgers were nationalistic."
This is a feature, not a bug!
You just don't "get it," Katsaris, and you never will.
That's OK, because Western Civilization doesn't need to save it (Thank God).
Posted by: Jen ||
05/22/2004 1:24 Comments ||
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EFL
A headless ostrich, dead chickens and a peacock littered the ground at a zoo Friday after Israeli troops raided a Gaza neighborhood. The zooâs owner said soldiers demolished cages and pens, killing some animals and setting dozens more free. Practicing for the Fishâs compound.
Same thing as last night, only with slightly different spin...
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
05/21/2004 11:55:27 AM ||
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#1
What about the puppies and baby ducks - are they ok???? Ooooohhhhh dear!
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
05/21/2004 11:58 Comments ||
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#2
Oooh, those Zionists! They are invading upon the revelation of the glory of Allah, Most Merciful, Oft-Forgiving, All-Powerful, Peace Be Bestowed by Him! Those animals were simply living their lives, slowly learning the Truth of Allah, Most Merciful, Oft-Forgiving, All-Powerful, Peace Be Bestowed by Him, and the Zionist infidels have destroyed the chances of them realizing the truth! We of the Religion of Peace decry this outrageous and obvious Zionist attempt to sabotage Islam by eliminating or converting the harmless little animals of this harmless little zoo!
Posted by: Shiekh Mohammed Ibrahaim Abdullah Abdul Haji ibn al-Mohammed ||
05/21/2004 12:05 Comments ||
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#3
Oh-oh, ". . . a tiger. . .unaccounted for."
Can you hear the headline in the next fdew days. "The escaped tiger just ate my four chickens. The Tiger has to be a spy for Masaad!"
Sam - A pony, several dogs, and a few dozen parrots were among the survivors.
Probably included some pups, but I can find nothing about baby ducks.
#10
Can you imagine how the Stepford sister networks would cover this and how the left would react if our GI's were involved in this operation some how. I can see the drunk from Mass now '..this is an outrqage perpetrated all the way up the chain of command to the President. This zoo massacre was conceived by Bush in Texas back in January along with Cheney's guidance. An immediate investigation should be called".
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
05/21/2004 21:10 Comments ||
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#11
Well, Mucky, my own animal companion, Roswell the Atomic Poodle, apparently disagrees about animal rights.
He doesn't say so, obviously, but he fancies himself the very Nimrod of poodle-dom. Specifically, he is fond of chasing, and sometimes gleefully killing, the local ground squirrels and other furry pests animal friends.
Underneath his peach curls, he is still a predatory beast, after all, and a truly ruthless killer. He only weighs 7 pounds himself, but he might as well be T-Rex itself if you are unfortunate enough to have been born with squirrel or mouse DNA.
He has long since wiped out the squirrel colony that used to inhabit our property; females, infants and all. In the minds of some, this is possibly akin to genocide (or is that pesticide?) but others refer to it as "nature."
He is a little slow now at age 13, but he still picks off the occasional straggler or scout from neighboring colonies.
#12
AC-Our other dog is Lili - 6 yr old poodle with the soul of a Rottweiler, with a taste for raw sirloin. Obviously not into animal rights, she is happy to aid our cat, Martin, in destroying all lizzard nests in the yard!
#1
AP Sheherezade had an evolving story per capture ofBelmont Club Blog :
Note links show update so the capture is very telling -
First Paragraphs -
5/19 18:16 GMT
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party before dawn Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.
5/19 20:46 GMT
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. aircraft fired on a house in the desert near the Syrian border Wednesday, and Iraqi officials said more than 40 people were killed, including children. The U.S. military said the target was a suspected safehouse for foreign fighters from Syria, but Iraqis said a helicopter had attacked a wedding party. ...
5/20 9:46 GMT
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) A U.S. air strike near the Syrian border killed more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said, and while the U.S. military said the target was a suspected safehouse for foreign fighters from Syria, Iraqis said a helicopter had attacked a wedding party.
The Song of Sheherezade sings a different and more balanced tune each time. She hears helicopters approaching and does not want to be confused for a wedding reveler.
This is a very clever thing the Belmont Club Blogmaster did. The AP should be ashamed of themselves for the first report at least. Don't be so declarative until you have your facts together.
#2
But not clever enough. Wretchard's point was that the story evolved as more facts emerged, but that what stuck in everyone's mind was the original story. He's partly right--but the story didn't change because the writer got off her fat butt and investigated, she just incorporated new rumor as it came over her radio. But he was right that only the initial story had the impact. AND THE INITIAL STORY WAS ENTIRELY A FRAUD, DAMMIT! There was no wedding, there were no children, this was a planned raid on a known bad guy, and when they shot back other stuff was called in to finish the job. No village was destroyed, and it was nowhere near Qaim. When is the US going to have a competent public affairs office to show the photos, show the evidence, and vigorously attack the liars? Not al Jizz, they'll always lie, but our own networks and papers--it's a demonstrable lie, why not call them on it?
EFL
Iraqi police have arrested four people in the killing of American Nicholas Berg and believe a nephew of Saddam Hussein was involved in Bergâs beheading, an Iraqi security official said Friday. The suspects were former members of Saddam Husseinâs Fedayeen paramilitary organization, said the official. They were May 14 in a house in Salaheddin province, north of Baghdad. The province includes Tikrit, Saddamâs hometown. The group that was involved in the killing of Berg was led by Yasser al-Sabawi, a nephew of Saddam Hussein, the security official said. He said American intelligence had asked Iraqi authorities to hand over the suspects, but they were still in Iraqi hands. Al-Sabawi was not among those arrested, the Iraqi official said. Well lookie here. We have been told for the last two years that Saddam is not and never has been involved in militant Islamic terror, yet hereâs the proof. Look for CNN and the NYT to jump on THIS aspect of the story. Or not. But definately one of the two.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 9:54:49 AM ||
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Chris, you just don't get it. There were no islamic terrorists in Iraq when Saddam was in charge. The NYT sez so, and who are we to question them?
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 10:16 Comments ||
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#2
Of course, the Vaathists and Islamic Terrorists only came together because of the Joooos ...or something like that. If the NYT covers this, it'll be on page A-10. The first 9 pages are reserved for Abu Grahib outrage
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 10:34 Comments ||
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#3
how about Baathists? and another cup of coffee....
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2004 10:35 Comments ||
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#4
I thought it was your accent creeping into your writing, but I'll have another java anyway.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/21/2004 11:38 Comments ||
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TEL AVIV â The Israel Air Force plans to procure a large and long-range unmanned air vehicle that resembles a fighter-jet. The UAV has been dubbed Eitan and has a wingspan of 26 meters and a takeoff weight of four tons. This weight is about four times the size of the largest UAV now in the Israel Air Force. The state-owned Israel Aircraft Industries has developed the Eitan. The Eitan was meant for automatic takeoff and landing. The twin-tailed UAV will be powered by a turboprop engine and meant for long flights.
It's a long flight to Iran
Details of the Eitan were published in the Israel Air Force Journal. So far, IAI has built two prototypes of the Eitan. The air force magazine said the UAV was in the advanced stages of development.
If they are publishing this, it's close to operational
"This aircraft, with its advanced avionics, is on a level similar to that of systems that operate on fighter-jets," Lt. Col. Boaz, responsible for UAVs in the air force, told the Journal. "The system will operate with complete autonomy and allow the operator to focus more on performing the mission and less on flying the air platform." Industry sources said the Eitan would be a multi-purpose UAV that could carry out reconnaissance and attack missions. One of those missions, they said, was the ability to locate and destroy mobile ballistic missile launchers.
Gee, now who could they be talking about?
The Defense Ministry has been developing the so-called Sniper system to destroy missiles in the boost phase of launch. The Sniper would also be able to destroy static and moving targets.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 9:21:45 AM ||
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#1
Yep! Long range, long loiter semi-autonomous aerial vehicle. Clearly directed at Iran/Pakistan. Also big enough to carry a nuclear weapon.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/21/2004 9:55 Comments ||
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#2
Remember, Israeli adolescents are doing pre-training for this 6/7 days by being just as avid joy-stick video-game air fighter hounds as we are in the US. They spend one day in prayer.
Their counterparts in Jihadistan spend 6/7 days being fed distorted Koran interpretation, and one day training to be future suicide bombers.
Who is going to sit in a military bunker in the Negev? . . .behind a chair and display that looks like a video-game, but isn't, getting real time images from a nose camera, and GPS tracking (courtesy US Defense Dept. feed) Guiding the UAV to certain sites in Iran?
The Iranian locals say, "I see a cigar shaped UFO heading to the nuclear plant. I've seen them before."
However - this one is different. Detonation in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 . . .
The locals then say, "DANG THAT UFO CRASHED INTO THE POWER PLANT.
Who will tell the Imam?"
#4
Re: Mad Mullahs & Nukes -- I keep coming back to a strategic strike vs. the "we have to take them all out" approach, which many have suggested is now beyond our means. In other words, we didn't bomb everything in Germany to reduce / thwart war materiel production. We acted strategically, intelligently. Regards Iran, NKor, etc., I'm certain our military planners understand. Surely RB'ers can "get it", too.
#5
Without going around the Arabian peninsula, Israel has to fly this behemoth across "hostile" teritory. (I am thinking of the "removal" of the Iranian Nuke Plant.)
How do they do that? Stealth technology?
Certainly, we could "ignore" a radar blip if the thing goes over Iraq, but what about a path over Jordan/Syria?
#6
BigEd - Well the Syrian AF pilots would be fighting with one another to see who could eject from their planes fastest if anything comes from Israel at them through the air.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
05/21/2004 13:06 Comments ||
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#8
I'm guessing that this bird will have a very high operational altitude. 60 to 65K at least. Most likely of composite construction so it is probably quite stealthy. The big problem that I can see is communications. Or do the Israelis own a communications sat in geosync orbit?
#10
CH, its semi-autonomous which means you don't need continous communications. It may require as little as a short burst transmission to/from a submarine or mountaintop. I bet it is optionally fully autonomous. The difference between semi- and fully-autonomous is not a technical barrier.
As for the route, either straight across Saudi Arabia, or over Syria and then SE Turkey.
Posted by: Phil B ||
05/21/2004 17:56 Comments ||
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#11
I'm waiting for those next Iranian UFO reports. He he he
(Who says IDFs aren't already testing it)
Lemmee see Coast-to-coast 1AM on KFI ....
Of course only to hear the "coded" message : "UFOs over Iran." Go get 'em Israel!
Ten civilians, including an Iraqi working for an Arabian television were killed in overnight fighting between US troops and Shiite militiamen in the holy cities of Karbala and Najaf, hospital sources said Friday.
Got one of their embeds.
Another 16 people were wounded in the violence which erupted in the two cities between coalition troops and the private militia of militant Shiite Muslim cleric Moqtada Sadr, medics added. Nine bodies were taken to the morgue at Karbala city hospital, doctor Ali Aradawi, head of the casualty department informed. Another 10 people were brought in with injuries. In Najaf, Kifah Shamal, director of the Hakim hospital said one civilian was killed and six others wounded in a short burst of heavy fighting near the city's cemetery.
Well, they won't have to move him then.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 8:57:00 AM ||
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Arab news channel al-Jazeera said today one of its employees was killed in clashes between U.S. forces and militiamen. It said Rashid Hamid Wali was killed in fighting in the southern city of Kerbala where U.S. forces are battling to put down a weeks-old rebellion by Sadr's militia.
Like I said, one of their embeds.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 9:03 Comments ||
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#2
What?! No women and children??
Posted by: The Screaming Nun ||
05/21/2004 9:19 Comments ||
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#3
Interesting. Al Jiz is Sunni-TV. Saderites are Shia. If anyone needed proof that Sunni & Shia extremists were working together, this is it.
#5
Better question is, where is AFP getting that these "people" are civilians, aside from the one in Najaf? Interesting thing - the articles never directly quote named hospital sources about that - it's just asserted before and after the actual quotations, which mention "people" and "bodies". It's actually daintier than I'd expect from the AFP, to be honest. Have to wonder if it's a cleanup job by the end-users.
Or do you believe in intense gunbattles in which all victims are innocent victims, Aris?
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/21/2004 10:52 Comments ||
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#6
Is anyone sure the imbed reporter was Al-Jazzera, and not Washington Post?
#9
Isn't it special how when the reporter is standing within a few dozen yards of armed militiamen firing on, or threatening to fire on, U.S. soldiers and he is killed in the counterfire, the U.S. is responsible for his death. Can't remember ever hearing this said when one of our embeds was killed or wounded by the other side.
#10
There may be intense gunbattles where innocents are victims.
But on the other hand, if the place is a declared warzone, it's a lot less likely that they're merely innocents, and more probable that they are somehow involved with one side or the other. Sad fact is, anyone in a warzone is a possible target, be they innocent or a participant. Best thing to do is to get the hell out of there, let the professionals and the amateurs deal with it.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 12:27 Comments ||
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#11
And be very careful about where you point that shoulder-carried "TV camera" - K?
#13
Actualy , Aris, you do raise a good point in #4.
# define Torquemada
And besides, who among us is truly innocent, hmmm?
# undefine Torquemada
At some level it is incumbent upon the noncombatants to make themselves distinct from the targets, especialy when the targets are deliberately trying to get the noncombatants killed by us for their own purposes. The targets appear by their actions to have declared that they will not accept anyone being neutral or having a protected, uninvolved status.
Because of the pecular nature of this war, camoflage takes on a whole new definition. The (surviving) targets have learned that physicaly avoiding detection is essentialy impossible, the deception has to take the form imitating prohibited target sets. It will be fascinating to see the evolution of this particular arms race.
Posted by: N guard ||
05/21/2004 13:35 Comments ||
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#14
N guard> "At some level it is incumbent upon the noncombatants to make themselves distinct from the targets"
Yeah, perhaps the civilians should start wearing some kind of uniform to distinguish them, right?
But anyway, since there exist no civilians, and everyone is guilty by implication, as Raj seems to me to be claiming, the problem has been solved already.
ISLAMABAD: Government accused U.S. troops today of making an incursion into its territory while hunting al Qaeda and Taliban militants, the second such incident this month. The troops intruded into a border village in the North Waziristan tribal region on Thursday and searched several houses before moving back into Afghanistan, military spokesman Major-General Shaukat Sultan told Reuters.
"Dammit, I told you to get fresh batteries for the GPS"
"We have already lodged a protest with the United States," military spokesman Major-General Shaukat Sultan told Reuters.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 8:53:54 AM ||
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#1
we played with their hadiths
got lost in the game
oh baby
#2
The Waziri Triangle is on the exact opposite side of the globe from the Bermuda Triangle. GPS Never works there.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/21/2004 11:43 Comments ||
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#3
Not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but does this show that we have tacit approval (by Perv, et. al.) to make these 'incursions', or is it that we just don't give a rat's ass?
Steve - There you go stealing my line. Tsk tsk tsk. He he he
Mr. D. - Precisely. The Army would never have two battery incidents in the same platoon.
But how do we know if the Army's map may have had a typo?
On Raj's serious note. Yes. Hunch. Remarks for public consumption. Privately, we get a wink, as long as we keep it within a certain distance of the border, which is poorly defined anyway.
#6
Has there been any recent seismic? Maybe the village moved.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 15:21 Comments ||
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#7
I think we are exploring the envelope of uncertainty, heh eh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2004 17:54 Comments ||
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#8
Private : Sarge? Doesn't the map say that the border runs to the left of the tree, across the rock outcrop, then bends left across the little bridge running over that there brook.
Sargeant: Private! your map is upside-down.
Private: Yes Sarge. Aaah yes! There are no squirrels in the tree on the map. It's that tree over there. . .
A win-win for the Perv. He winks, we win, we subdue a rebellious province for him. He winks, we loose, he leads the new Mujahideen against the Great Satan.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/21/2004 22:47 Comments ||
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#1
DEBKA was all over this story months ago. Good to hear it again, however, and from another source. The new twist in this one is that the Syrians have kept the dual-use nuclear technology for themselves.
#2
Do you suppose there are a couple of TLAMs tasked to make sure this stuff never moves again?
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
05/21/2004 13:11 Comments ||
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#3
Knowing of this evidence. Does not one think that some Special Forces guys might pay a courtesy call on a local Head'Bowler (Hezbo'allah) to extract stuff buried under his shack!
We won't hear about it until the operation is complete - probably the week before the Democrat Convention.
A bomb in the north-eastern Bangladeshi town of Sylhet has wounded many people, among them the British high commissioner, police say. The British High Commission confirmed that Anwar Choudhury was among casualties, but had no more details. Local reports say he is receiving treatment in hospital for leg injuries. It is unclear who is behind the blast, which took place at a Muslim saintâs shrine. A bomb at the same shrine earlier this year killed three people.
The BBCâs Roland Buerk in Dhaka says the explosion occurred barely 10 metres from Mr Choudhury as he walked out of a mosque at the shrine of Hazrat Shahjalal after Friday prayers. Police say they suspect a bomb was thrown by somebody in the crowd. The Bangladeshi-born Mr Choudhury only took up his post in the country last week. His family is originally from the Sylhet region and his visit to the mosque was widely publicised. A doctor at the Sylhet Medical College Hospital told the Reuters news agency: "The high commissioner is being treated for splinters in his legs below the knees but his condition is not serious." The Associated Press agency said an army helicopter had been sent to bring Mr Choudhury back to Dhaka. In an attack on the shrine in January three people were killed by an explosion during a religious gathering. No one has been arrested for that bombing, but Islamic extremists have been widely blamed. I distinctly remember reading about Bangladesh becoming a hot spot for AQ...
Posted by: The Screaming Nun ||
05/21/2004 5:47:01 AM ||
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05/21/2004 04:18 ||
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The military created 14 MOABs â officially an acronym for Massive Ordnance Air Blast â but none was used in the war. There are no current plans to make more of the 21,000-pound bombs, the largest guided air-delivered munition in history
One on display, two tested, rest on the shelf, plans in the computer in case they need more. It's a very specialized weapon, suitable only for use against large area targets with no air defense. Most targets are better attacked with smaller precision weapons dropped in someone's backpocket.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2004 8:51 Comments ||
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#2
Picture on web anywhere - must be the size of a truck!?
#3
More to the point, it can't be used in a guerilla war in urban terrain - the chance of actual civilian casualties (as opposed to AFP "civilian casualties") is probably 100%.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/21/2004 9:01 Comments ||
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#4
There's a "Daisy Cutter" (BLU-82) and a "Bunker Buster" (GBU-28) in the USAF Museum in Dayton.
Posted by: Mike ||
05/21/2004 9:08 Comments ||
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#5
TSN, for pictures check out this Global Security article. Scroll down for lots of pics.
#7
Mike-The Air Force Museum also has LOTS of bombs including mock-ups of the fatman and little boy atomic bombs of WWII, and a fusion bomb under the B-52. Those boys are proud of their toys!
Been there (with the Cub Pack*), seen that. It just struck me in particular that they had specimens of the currently-in-service Things That Go BOOM In The Night prominently on display.
*My 8-year old couldn't tear himself away from the WW2 gallery. The boy has good taste in airplanes. His favorite movie is Battle of Britain. "I'm proud of you, son."
Posted by: Mike ||
05/21/2004 11:31 Comments ||
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#9
MOAB was nothing more than a propaganda weapon. If it made Iraqis quake in their boots, great.
#10
MOAB was only meant as a stopgap. Something that has to be rolled out the back of a C-130 at 20,000 ft is not an optimum weapon. Maybe the replacement will fit inside a REAL Bomber.
#11
The MOAB was designed to clear an area to become a fire base or landing zone, as was the "Daisy Cutter", not as an anti-personnel or anti-materiel device.
#12
I read the Global Security article and raised a glass to the late, great Barnes Wallis, designer of the Grand Slam and the Tallboy in WW2. Also the Bouncing Bomb of Dambusters fame.
Six people were killed and nine women were kidnapped during a bloody clash between the Almani and Maher tribes in Ghotki late Wednesday night, reports from the area said. The clash was the result of the tension that had been mounting between the two. A man from the Maher tribe and a woman from the Almani tribe married against their tribal eldersâ will and sought court protection after the elders tried to force a divorce.
"They can't get married, y'r honor! They ain't near close enough kin!"
The Sindh High Court upheld the marriage and ordered the police to protect the couple. Ms Almani was given a job as police constable so that they could live in a protected police apartment.
"Ummm... Our new apartment? It's got bars on the windows? And a blast wall outside? The couch is made out of sandbags?"
"Wait'll yez see the bedroom!"
After the clash, Ghotki police raided villages inhabited by people belonging to the Almani tribe and arrested a number of men and women.
"Into the paddy wagon wit' yez!"
"But I didn't do nuttin'!"
"Mahmoud! Hit him!"
"Owwww!"
According to reports, about 30 armed men attacked the village Nooruddin Maher near Ghotki last night. The attackers trespassed the house of Mohammad Murad Maher, and kidnapped his wife, Allah Bachai, 25, and their 13-year-old daughter, Shahnaz.
Allah is 25. She has a 13-year-old daughter. That means she was 12 when she gave birth, probably 11 when she conceived...
There was an exchange of fire between the man and the attackers, as a result of which another Maher man, Dilbar Maher, was killed.
Alas, poor Dilbar...
Also killed during the attack was a man named Liaqat Korai.
... who was just walking down the street...
Following the incident, hundreds of Maher tribesmen rushed to the scene.
"Yar! We be Mahers!"
Later, Maher tribesmen raided Liaqat Koraiâs native village Qamber Korai and kidnapped seven women from there.
"Yar! Wimmin! Bring me the sultry wench with the fire in her eyes!"
They followed that up by a raid on village Ghulam Mohammad Korai and killed tractor driver Ali Nawaz Korai and kidnapped four Almani tribesmen from a brick kiln, killing two of them. Their names could not be ascertained immediately. In an operation throughout district Ghotki, police on Thursday morning raided the houses of Almani tribesmen living in Khanpur Maher, Daharki and Mirpur Mathelo, and arrested a number of men and women.
... possibly including some who were involved in the murders and kidnappings...
Tension is reported to be high in the affected areas, with members of the two tribes entrenched against each other.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2004 12:26:04 AM ||
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The more I read the more I am convinced we are dealing with phytoplankton.
#2
They can't be primitives, I mean, they have boomsticks, right?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/21/2004 8:55 Comments ||
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#3
Allah must've been rather fetching in her youth, no? Hmmm... If Shahnaz is ever returned, think she'll be something of a Trojan Horse? Will everyone have to kill themselves and each other? Er, the wymyns, I mean? Be sure to tune in for next week's episode of As the PakiWaki Turns.
#8
Lol! Honesty Alert! My Male BoinkMaster Deluxe Meter just pegged!
Rhetorical question: If TSN had posted as Cloistered Celibate Married-to-Jesus-for-Life Skateboard Nun, would virginian have made his, um proposition? Lol! I love RB...
Fred - I see a blossoming biz opportunity here... Lol!
#9
11A5S - ONCE of a time, that Ailill and Medb had spread their royal bed in Cruachan, the stronghold of Connacht, such was the pillow-talk that befell betwixt them:
AND
Allah is 25. She has a 13-year-old daughter. That means she was 12 when she gave birth, probably 11 when she conceived...
"Pillow-talk" with an 11-year old? Don't we call that molestation in this country?
Kenyan authorities are planning to deport an Australian detained and questioned by anti-terrorist police, an Australian official and police said Thursday. Mukhtur Muxamed Sayid, a 32-year-old of Somali descent from New South Wales state, was detained on suspicion of terrorist activities, an official at the Australian High Commission, who did not want to be identified further, said. Sayid and two other people, including his wife, were picked up by police on Sunday while trying to book rooms at a hotel opposite the Israeli Embassy.
Police spokesman Supt. Jaspher Ombati said Kenyan authorities decided to deport Sayid and his wife because their presence in Kenya "posed a security threat." He declined to elaborate and it was not clear when the pair would be deported. Ombati identified Sayidâs wife as Sitaka Bonjak, but it was not clear what her nationality was. A third person who was also picked up, Abdullah Mohammed, was still being questioned as police attempted to establish more details about the suspect, Ombati said. He is believed to be Kenyan, but the information he has given detectives "doesnât add up," Ombati added.
The three were detained after hotel workers became suspicious of the trio as they tried to book rooms for two other unidentified people at the hotel. The two other people never showed up at the hotel, Ombati said. "The manner in which they were making the bookings and the manner they concealed the names of those people who were to come made security people suspicious," Ombati said. "This raised suspicion and prompted authorities to make a decision." There were no further details immediately available.
Kenya has been the scene of two terrorist attacks, the first one in Aug. 7 1998 when members of Osama bin Ladenâs Al-Qaida network bombed the U.S. embassy in the capital, killing 219 people, including 12 Americans. On Nov. 28, 2002, terrorists rammed a vehicle laden with explosives into an Israeli-owned hotel on the Kenyan coast, killing 15 people. Terrorists also fired two surface-to-air missiles that narrowly missed an Israeli charter as it took off from Kenyaâs Indian Ocean port of Mombasa.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
05/21/2004 7:22:06 AM ||
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Ahmad Chalabi, Washingtonâs former top Iraqi ally whose house in Baghdad was raided by U.S. troops on Thursday, passed sensitive U.S. intelligence to Iran that could "get Americans killed," CBS Evening News said. "Senior U.S. officials told us today that they have evidence Chalabi has been passing highly classified U.S. intelligence to Iran," the report said on Thursday. "The evidence shows that Chalabi personally gave Iranian intelligence officers information so sensitive that if revealed it could ... âget Americans killed.â The evidence is said to be ârock solid."â
There was no independent confirmation of the report. CBS said an aide to Chalabi dismissed the charges as "nonsense" and said they were part of an effort by the CIA to discredit him. The report quoted unnamed sources as saying a senior member of Chalabiâs Iraqi National Congress "is believed to have been recruited by Iranâs intelligence agency and is on their payroll." A high-level investigation is under way to determine who in the U.S. government gave Chalabi such sensitive information, CBS said.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
05/21/2004 6:55:34 AM ||
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That last sentence is the real meat of this story. If Chalabi or one of his aides is working for the Iranians, how did he get the information? Was the CPA/CIA sharing it with Chalabi? That doesn't make much sense. So there's an Iranian mole in CPA/CIA/DoD. Maybe we've returned to the Cold War pattern of ideological recruitments -- that is, maybe there are crypto-Islamists embedded in key U.S. agencies.
So there's your dose of paranoia for the day...
Posted by: Jonathan ||
05/21/2004 11:02 Comments ||
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Hmmm... If true, and rock solid has only one meaning in this sense, and if we decide to do something about it before the handover, he can be taken out and summarily shot. Today. Now. Q.E.D.
#3
I threw this out yesterday, but if nobody minds I'd like to do it again (and you can't stop me even if you do mind, heh-heh):
Could there be a connection between Chalabi's Iranians and the guys who support al-Sadr? Might this insurgent have been getting the inside info on the GC via Iran via Chalabi?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 11:16 Comments ||
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Doc - absolutely. Perhaps using the Ansar al-Islam as mules.
Posted by: Sofia ||
05/21/2004 12:53 Comments ||
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Chalabi may have gotten what information he got legitimately--since we considered him one of the good guys, we may have been letting him in on things, either out of courtesy or operational necessity.
Or not.
I think we'll know soon enough.
Posted by: Mike ||
05/21/2004 14:19 Comments ||
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CBS news under Rather provide the nation's enemies with aid, comfort and actionable intelligence daily. Ditto Jennings, Brokaw and the minions of LEFTmedia scum. Chalabi is a hero compared to our homegrown traitors.
#7
Sadly, I think Garrison is right; he deserves at least the benefit of the doubt, and based on what I've heard I slightly take his side on this question ...
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
05/21/2004 22:21 Comments ||
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These guys were extremely lucky.
A jammed pistol proved the difference between life and death for members of an Israeli delegation when a Jordanian policeman reportedly tried to shoot them at the Allenby crossing point as they were returning home. Reports from the scene said the policeman managed to fire one bullet without hitting anyone before the magazine in his automatic got stuck and he was eventually overcome by security guards.
The drama occurred on Thursday evening as the delegation, including academics and members of the security establishment, was returning to Israel from a conference in Jordan. According to reports, they were waiting in the VIP lounge at the Allenby terminal in the Jordan Rift when suddenly a Jordanian policeman entered and opened fire at them. Yisrael Harel, a member of the delegation, told Channel Two that they had been waiting for their passports to be processed when a Jordanian policeman entered the room and fired in their direction but without hitting anyone. Harel said he fired one shot and then the pistol jammed, He tried to rectify the problem but only succeeded in ejecting bullets. "Every time he cocked the pistol and tried to fire, it wouldnât fire and ejected the bullets until there were 20-30 scattered around," said Harel.
According to previous reports, questions were raised regarding the documents of one of the delegation members. When they attempted to force their way through to the Israeli side, a Jordanian soldier fired one shot towards a nearby wall. Looks to me they were set up to be murdered. Of course this got minimal coverage in the mainstream media. It was only Jooos anyway.
Posted by: Phil_B ||
05/21/2004 5:16:30 AM ||
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You die this time, NO! You die this time, shitshitshit, NOW! You die this time! Oh bugger...
Wasn't it a Jordanian policeman who went on a shooting spree in Kosovo? - Unpredictable breed aren't they?
Posted by: The Screaming Nun ||
05/21/2004 5:52 Comments ||
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EFL
Karachi has gone from bad to worse. There is no other way to describe the cityâs woes and its downslide since 1984. Foreigners are generally advised by their governments to âavoid visiting Karachiâ Recently, the Indian cricket team refused to play a Test match here, as did South Africa and New Zealand. A Dutch company, which has been working in Karachi for the past few years, has decided to âpack-upâ and leave. The Dutch companyâs decision came a week before a suicide bomb attack in an imambargah killed 19 people and injured around 80. The suicide bomber has since been identified as a âpolicemanâ. A few days later, 10 people were killed and 20 others injured in an armed attack allegedly involving the activists of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) and the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP). The growing violence threatens to plunge Karachi back to the eighties and early nineties when the city was on fire. MMA is mostly Pashtun based, the PPP is a secular party appealing to Sindhis, and the MQM is the party of Indian migrants to Pakistan.
Karachi, the city of 14-million people, has witnessed constant bloodshed since 1984. An estimated 5,000 people have been killed in political, ethnic and sectarian violence. The violence has resulted in sharp decline in foreign and local investment. Many believe the decision to shift the capital to Islamabad from Karachi contributed to an emphasis away from Karachi. Even so Karachi retained it pride of place as the melting pot of Pakistan and as its financial capital. Karachi remained the city of colour and culture till the mid 70s. The city once had some 70 cinema-houses, nightclubs, bars and other entertainment outlets. Today, the city hardly has 10 cinema-houses and, of course, no nightclubs or bars since they were banned by Mr Bhutto in 1977. Over the years the city has also seen a rise in the population of aliens. It started with the Afghan refugees but now includes Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Burmese and even some Africans. This has resulted in higher crime rates and slum dwellings. Karachi today houses thousands of slum-cities including Asiaâs biggest slum-city, the Orangi Town. There are some 0.5 million Bengalis, one million Afghans and some 0.5 million other foreign nationals like Burmese, Palestinians, Jordanians etc. Police sources, however, say the aliens are not involved in terrorist attacks, which are mounted by either the locals or Pakistanis from Punjab, Frontier or Hazara. The Baloch and Sindhis are primarily into car-lifting and kidnapping for ransom. Even so, some intelligence officials believe hired killers could possibly be drawn from among the aliens. These foreigners make a fertile recruiting ground for Jihadis, especially Laskar-e-Taiba, allowing them to extend their reach to countries like Burma and Bangladesh that have little Pakistani presence.
Karachi has been caught in the grip of sectarian violence since the early days of former military ruler General Zia-ul-Haq. In 1978, some 14 people were killed in sectarian riots after a dispute broke out on the procession of a mosque in Golimar. House to house fighting was witnessed following mass attacks on mosques and imambargahs; some of these prayer places were set on fire. Into the fray entered organisations like the Shia Tehreek-e-Nifaz-e-Fiqah-e-Jafria (TNFJ), later rechristened the Tehrik-e Jafaria Pakistan and Swad-e-Azam. Though the leaders of both these groups belong to the people from Hazara or NWFP, they have established their bases in Karachi. This has led to an intensification of sectarian clashes in the city. Ethnic, Political and religous groups with their own militias arenât exactly a good recipe for peace.
The Zia era also saw increase in campus violence in Karachi. JI, which supported Zia till he banned the students unions, used its student-wing, the Islami Jamiat-e-Tulaba (IJT) to control the colleges and universities in the city. There is no doubt that the IJT was the most organised student group. It also had a militant streak. It could not be challenged by any other group except the Nationalist Students Federation (NSF). But the NSF faded in the face of IJT until a small student group representing Mohajir students and calling itself the All Pakistan Mohajir Student Organisation (APMSO) came on the scene. The IJT got its first real challenge at the hands of the APMSO. The APMSO exploited the issue of injustice meted out to the Urdu-speaking students: quota-system, admissions and lack of employment opportunities were some of the issues it raised. They soon attracted many ethnic Mohajir IJT students, who joined the APMSO. The IJT retaliated by using strong-arm tactics to put down the APMSO. This did not diminish the popularity of the APMSO but led to armed clashes and violence on the campuses. In 1986, the founder members of the APMSO launched the Mohajir Qaumi Movement (now Mutahidda Qaumi Movement). A pharmacy student, Altaf Hussain, from the University of Karachi led the MQM. Hussain was earlier sentenced to nine months in prison by a military court for allegedly burning a Pakistani flag. The MQM were able to eject the JI from Karachi for a time, by being more violent than them, but the Pak establishment declared war on them which diverted their attention and resources. The JI has made a big come back in Karachi of late.
But the watershed year was 1984. In that year Karachi took a violent turn and life has never been normal in the city since then. It all started with a simple road accident in which a bus overran a college girl, Bushra Zaidi. This led to Mohajir-Pashtun riots since the city transport was mostly run by Pashtun companies while the girl who got killed was a Mohajir. The accident provided the pretext for long simmering tensions to come out in the open. Despite Ziaâs utmost efforts to finish off the PPP, including murdering its founder-chairman Mr Bhutto through a judicial process, the party remained the most potent threat to his regime. At first Zia wanted to divide the PPP but failed in that venture. He and his cronies then changed the tactic and planned to divide Sindh, the PPPâs stronghold. Ironically, the Army has continued to be tight with Fazl and the Jihadi groups at least in part to weaken the PPP. The increasing fundamentalism in the country has certainly ejected the PPP from the NWFP.
This led to his courting the MQM in urban Sindh and Sindhi nationalists in rural Sindh. The MQM and the Jeay Sindh founder G M Syed had one thing in common: a hatred for the PPP. MQM blamed Mr Bhutto for the injustices to the Mohajirs while Syed always termed the PPP as the agent of Punjab. Syed was also opposed to the Movement for the Restoration of Democracy. Indeed, some observers say in the initial days of the MQM, the party workers were given arms and training by Jeay Sindh activists. However, very soon the establishment started feeling the threat from a strong Sindhi-Mohajir axis. The rise of the MQM was also seen as a threat to Punjab. In circumstances that still remain mysterious, the MQM procession was first fired at near Sohrab Goth and then a clash was orchestrated between the Mohajirs and Sindhis in Hyderabad on the petty issue of changing the name of Hyder Bux Jatoi chowk in that city. Both events led to a schism between the two ethnic communities. Ziaâs death on August 17, 1988 in a plane crash changed the political scenario in the country. Elections were announced, but just a month before the polls the country saw the worst terrorist attack. Some 200 people were killed in merely ten minutes in Hyderabad, mostly Mohajirs after unidentified gunmen opened fire on them. The next day some 150 people, this time mostly Sindhis, were killed in Karachi. Until today, the massacres remain a big mystery. However, all sides are convinced that the attacks were orchestrated by intelligence agencies.
MQM swept the polls in urban Sindh while the PPP secured the most seats in rural Sindh. The province was polarised and remains so until the writing of this report. The polls also allowed the MQM to flex its muscles and the party began to run Karachi and Hyderabad as its fiefdoms. Since then all political opponents have complained of MQMâs Dr Jekyll-Mr Hyde character. However, the agencies then split the MQM in 1991 and created another, Haqiqi group, which they supported from the eve of the military operation in 1992 until the original MQM was declared a patriotic party once again and, today, enjoys the fruits of its rapprochement with the establishment. But the intervening years saw infighting between the two groups that generated much violence in Karachi with both sides targeting each otherâs activists, killing them mercilessly and dumping the chopped bodies on the streets in gunny bags. It also give rise to militancy in the MQM because of its strong power. The army operation in 1992 and the agenciesâ naked backing of the Haqiqis also did much to revive the waning fortunes of the MQM. Indeed, while the establishment kept supporting the Haqiqis until as recently as 2002, the group could never emerge as a viable political force to challenge the MQM. All the police officers in Karachi who were encouraged to summarily execute members of the MQM during the 90âs now find themselves in a city run by the party, which has reduced their life expectancy somewhat. The Haqiqiâs have been dumped by the establishment, so they have made contacts with the Jihadis, and have offered their death sqauds to them.
The post 9/11 years have added the element of religious terrorism to Karachiâs woes. The city hit international headlines when Al Qaeda activists were caught from here and after a Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and then beheaded by religious militants. The city has also seen increased activity by religious terrorist groups, suicide bombings and other attacks, including sectarian killings. As things stand, Karachi is poised to go from bad to worse. To this situation everyone has contributed: from political parties to the religious groups to the establishment and even the citizens themselves. But its troubles do not just stop here. Its infrastructure is creaky and about to wither off. It is controlled by mafias of every conceivable type and denomination. Its parks, roads and buildings have been destroyed and the powerful, both political and criminal (sometimes it means the same), have broken every law in the book to put scars on Karachiâs face. It may be Pakistanâs commercial hub but it is calling out for help. General Musharraf belongs to this city. He has a vision for Pakistan: a modern, progressive and economically viable city. Without Karachi, that vision cannot come to fruition. Can he do something to restore this city to its old peace and glory?
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/21/2004 3:02:42 AM ||
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#1
so the burmese are muslims?
this looks very interesting, however i must find the time for it. Thanks.
U.S. officials have been irritated at the adversarial role he has played within the U.S.-picked Iraqi Governing Council. He has openly clashed with L. Paul Bremer III, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, and pushed for the new Iraqi government to have more power, including over security forces and oil revenues.
He has been in the middle of an increasingly bitter fight with the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority over the investigation of the United Nations' "oil-for-food" program. U.S. officials are unhappy that he has been unwilling to turn over documents scooped up after the war that bear on the investigation.
Some U.S. officials complain that Chalabi has been parceling out the documents in small numbers each month to justify the $340,000 in U.S. aid to the INC. U.S. officials announced this week that the money was being halted because Iraq was about to regain its sovereignty.
Chalabi and U.S. officials have clashed over the authority's decision to ease up on a program, overseen by Chalabi, that has sought to keep members of Hussein's Baath Party out of government.
Chalabi has said that allowing former Baathists into the government was "like allowing Nazis into the German government after World War II."
His readiness to criticize the United States may stem in part, U.S. officials say, from a desire to separate himself from the occupying power, in hopes of building a base of popular support he has never had. Polls show that the INC has only single-digit support from Iraqis, and many of Iraqis have long been suspicious of him.
The U.S. official said the administration had lost patience with Chalabi over a combination of issues.
"Even though he was at the center of the decision-making on de-Baathification, he suddenly turned on us. So there's a little bit of 'whiplash' when it comes to Mr. Chalabi," a State Department official said.
One Western diplomat said he believed that the administration "has recognized that Chalabi has become much more part of the problem than he was a part of the solution."
Even the Pentagon, the envoy said, "knew he had become tainted goods."
Chalabi is not expected to be named as part of the new caretaker government in Iraq, because his selection probably would be opposed by the United Nations, many European allies and neighboring Arab countries.
Nevertheless, Iraqi and U.S. officials acknowledge that, even with fading U.S. support, Chalabi is well positioned to continue to be highly influential in Iraq.
He has wide commercial ties, influence over the country's banking network, control over the de-Baathification program, and key allies and relatives in important places. One nephew is defense minister; another heads the Iraqi tribunal that will try Hussein and members of his former regime.
Even though Chalabi has lost support in many places, there were strong expressions of support and outrage Thursday after the raid on his home.
"This is a campaign of intimidation against people that the U.N., or the CPA, or both, think are interfering with their nicely laid plans," said Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute, which has strongly supported Chalabi. "This is an act that's more appropriate to Saddam's Iraq than the new one."
Patrick Clawson, deputy director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said the raid was a blunder, coming at a time when the coalition authority should be seeking accommodation with people who disagree.
"You should try to court Iraqis who don't agree with you, not humiliate them," he said.
One Iraqi official close to the Governing Council suggested that Chalabi is so smart that he sometimes outsmarts himself playing "one hand he doesn't have."
Nevertheless, the official predicted that "Ahmad Chalabi will be around in 10 years' time. He will not go away. And he has the ability to make trouble for the Americans."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/21/2004 2:50:46 AM ||
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"Ahmad Chalabi will be around in 10 years' time. He will not go away. And he has the ability to make trouble for the Americans.".....Until.....
Posted by: Dorf ||
05/21/2004 21:20 Comments ||
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Iraqi Governing Council member Ahmed Chalabi said the raid on his compound Thursday was engineered by Baathists who control the Iraqi police and who are now protected by the Coalition Provisional Authority.
Senior coalition law enforcement and justice officials said the raid on the compound of the Iraqi National Congress was part of an investigation of "suspected fraud in a government ministry."
But Chalabi -- who is head of finance in the Iraqi Governing Council and leader of the INC -- was not named in the warrant.
Iraqi police and U.S. military personnel who conducted the raid took away computers and documents but arrested no one, Chalabi told reporters at a Baghdad news conference.
Senor said questions about the raid should be addressed to the Iraqi police. "It was an Iraqi-led investigation, an Iraqi-led raid. It was the result of Iraqi arrest warrants," he said.
Chalabi said an emergency meeting of the Iraqi Governing Council has been called for Friday afternoon to respond to the raid. When asked what could be expected, he said, "Wait and see."
The coalition officials said three locations were searched under the warrant issued by an Iraqi judge. "Several people" named in the warrant were arrested, but some were not found, they said.
The investigation involved "fraud, kidnapping and associated matters," they said.
Chalabi's nephew, Salim Chalabi, who serves as Iraq's war crimes prosecutor, said U.S. military personnel and Iraqi police entered his uncle's home with their weapons drawn, threatened Chalabi's security personnel, put a gun to Chalabi's head and threatened him.
Iraqi National Congress spokesman Entifadh Qanbar, speaking to CNN from Washington, said the compound was raided "in a very savage way.... Doors were smashed despite the offer to unlock it. Computers were smashed. Even pictures on the wall were smashed. Even his holy Koran, his personal holy Koran was taken as a document."
Chalabi was the champion of a plan to rid Iraq of Baath Party influence that has caused rancor among many Iraqis. He said Thursday's raid was led by Baathists who have been given power by the CPA.
Chalabi said the Iraqi police have been "completely subverted" by Baathists.
He said his dissatisfaction is not with President Bush, but with Coalition Provisional Authority chief Paul Bremer.
"My message to CPA is let my people go," Chalabi said. "Let my people be free. We are grateful to President Bush for liberating Iraq but it is time for Iraqi people to run their affairs."
The Pentagon made a final monthly payment of $340,000 to Chalabi's INC party in May, a senior Pentagon official said.
The payments, made under under the Iraqi Liberation Act, were aimed at getting information and providing training for INC members.
But they are ending because, as of June 30, the law supporting opposition groups becomes moot when Iraq resumes sovereignty over its own affairs, the official said.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/21/2004 2:48:27 AM ||
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Oh, okay, it's a Baathist conspiracy. At least on the surface. But we all know that deep within there is the influence of Zionism. And those sharp Arabs are gonna find it, just you see.
And why would they take his Qu'ran? Maybe he'd highlighted the passages about killing infidels or something . . .
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 9:27 Comments ||
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EFL; still long though--sorry
Three sources confirmed to The New York Sun that the National Security Council for weeks had known about an investigation into the INC from an Iraqi judge and was discussing action against the one-time American ally, INC leader Ahmad Chalabi. âThe executive branch knew about these occurrences,â a White House official told the Sun yesterday. âThis was Bremerâs decision though.â Hereâs an odd part:
American soldiers and civilians in unmarked cars circled Mr. Chalabiâs home in the Mansour neighborhood of Baghdad, kicked in the doors, and left with boxes of documents related to the Iraqi Governing Councilâs U.N. oil-forfood program investigation. On the same day, two American intelligence officers visited the home of author and Iraqi human rights leader Kanan Makiya asking about documents from the Baathist archives associated with his Iraq Memory Foundation. After officials from that group explained they were authorized to catalog them, the intelligence officers left without the documents. Meanwhile looks like the intel payments are ending for a different reason...
The INC still receives $340,000 a month to assist intelligence collection for the American Army, though the deputy defense secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, said Tuesday these payments would end next month, when Iraq is expected to assume sovereignty. According to State (and apparently CPA), the arrest was because of this:Sabbah Nouri Ibrahim al-Salem told Iraqi investigators that Mr. Chalabiâs organization instructed him to strong-arm bureaucrats and steal government property. On March 24, Iraqi police arrested Mr. al-Salem, the office manager for the Iraqi finance minister, Kamil al-Gailani, on 17 charges including claims that he kidnapped and coerced confessions from bank tellers charged with stealing newly printed Iraqi dinars in January. When he was arrested, he told Iraqi police that he was a friend of Aras Habib Karem, Mr. Chalabiâs intelligence chief, prompting Iraqi authorities to issue a warrant for Mr. Karemâs arrest. A spokesman for Mr. Chalabi, Zaab Sethna, told the Sun Mr. al-Salem was a guard who was not a significant member of the INC. Wait, I donât see the word "Iran" in there. Meanwhile, back on the home front...
Richard Perle said, âAs far as I know, the CPA has not arrested a single individual responsible for acts on Americans. And they managed to find the resources to go after the INC. I think this is appalling, a disgrace.â Michael Rubin, who also used to be an adviser to the CPA said, âU.S. troops are in Iraq for security and to search for WMD.They are not there to enforce Bremerâs personal vendettas. Bremer is out of control. Bremer is using U.S. troops for political purposes.â One Bush administration official who is supportive of Mr. Chalabi told the Sun: âI donât know what this is about, but weâve just shot ourselves in the head.â That sort of sums it up, huh?
Posted by: someone ||
05/21/2004 2:22:14 AM ||
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Er, the raid was because of, not arrest. Sorry.
1. Its a State - CIA - Bremer thing, and Yes, we have shot ourselves in the head.
2. Chalabi pressed the money stuff too far, and DoD joined in a consensus that he simply wasnt worth it.
3. They really do think hes working with Iran, or doing something equally nefarious
4. Its all a charade, to make him look independent of the US, and the US more independent of Chalabi.
I'll keep an open mind.
Still the raid on Kanan Makiya, the author of "Iraq, Republic of Fear" and of many articles in the New Republic is VERY STRANGE.
#3
dropkick the iranian double agent to jordan where he'll sit in jail for fleecing his bank for him and his family--hey its "chinatown"--this gonnif's got to go
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI ||
05/22/2004 0:02 Comments ||
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The U.S. military says the attack that Iraqis say killed more than 40 members of a wedding party was no mistake. A spokesman says the air and ground assault near the Syrian border was aimed at a sanctuary for suspected foreign fighters....Local Iraqis say a large number of women and children were among those killed when aircraft pounded a building where a wedding celebration was underway. Donât forget the baby ducks and kittens.
But Brig.-Gen. Mark Kimmitt says his forces had good reason to attack. "Itâs important to understand that this operation was not something that just fell out of the sky." Shit, Kimmit! With one-liners like that youâre gonna be packinâ them in from miles around!
"We had significant intelligence that caused us to conduct a military operation into the middle of the desert, 85 kilometres south of Husaybah and 25 kilometres inside from the Syrian border ... this is one of those routes we have watched for a long period of time, as a place where foreign fighters and smugglers come into this country." Gen. James Mattis of the U.S. Marine Corps, said his troops have nothing to apologize for, adding, "Letâs not be naive, bad things happen in wars."
Posted by: Rafael ||
05/21/2004 2:39:02 AM ||
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Gen. James Mattis of the U.S. Marine Corps, said his troops have nothing to apologize for, adding, "Letâs not be naive, bad things happen in wars."
'Bout damn time somebody spoke the truth. It's a certainty nobody on the other side (the media, for instance) will.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/21/2004 2:53 Comments ||
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#2
Is it possible that both stories are true. Let's compromise with we whacked a wedding party at an illegal ammo dump. Everybody happy?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/21/2004 4:28 Comments ||
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#4
Mattis is what we call a warrior monk. Has dedicated his whole life to his profession as a fighter. He also has the great attribute of not mincing words.
#5
U.S. stands by its attack on Iraqi wedding party
Gotta love the CBC's unbiased, impartial headlines.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/21/2004 6:49 Comments ||
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#6
I liked Rush's take on it yesterday saying it was 3 am so it may have been a bachelor party and they were running around with women's underwear on their heads and shooting off their AK's....
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
05/21/2004 8:33 Comments ||
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We had significant intelligence which caused us to conduct a military operation into the middle of the desert, 85 kilometers south of Husaybah, al Qaim, and 25 kilometers inside from the Syrian border. Relatively barren area. We had a group of people there, not Bedouin. They were -- would appear to have been town dwellers. You saw 4x4s, jewelry. This is one of those routes that we have watched for a long period of time as a place where foreign fighters and smugglers come into this country.
We have consistently talked inside this forum about the foreign fighter flow. This was clearly, in our -- the intelligence that we had suggested that this was a foreign fighter "rat line," as we call them, one of the way stations. We conducted military operations down there last night. The ground force that swept through the objective found a significant amount of material and intelligence which validated that attack. And we are satisfied at this point that the intelligence that led us there was validated by what we found on the ground, and it was not that there was a wedding party going on...
The persons that we had on the ground did not find -- and they were on the ground for an extensive period of time -- they did not find any dead children among the casualties of that engagement...
Obviously, for operational and security reasons, I can't reveal much of the details of what got us there and what we did while we were there. But I am persuaded that, again, the purposes that caused us to conduct that operation in the middle of the barren desert in the early mornings (sic) of the hour, which is kind of an odd time to be having a wedding, against what we believed to be 34 to 35 men and a number of women, less than a handful of women, which doesn't seem to be numbers that one would associate with a wedding, by a group in their four-by- fours, well away from any town, in a known RAT line, which is being used by smugglers and foreign fighters frequently, and other intelligence that we found on the ground, pretty well convinces us that what got us there had a valid purpose...
But we are satisfied that the intelligence that we had, the multiple correlated evidence that got us there, and the actions of our forces on the ground, what they found and what they brought back -- foreign passports, money, weapons, satellite communications -- would be inconsistent with a wedding party for sure, and fairly consistent with what we have seen throughout this country time after time after time, which is the flow of foreign fighters to come in to terrorize and kill the Iraqi citizens.
#9
If you people are incapable of getting "married" without shooting into the air, then you deserve what you get.
You live in a nation AT WAR, you stupid camel-fuckers.
All this talk about the "tradition" of shooting off firearms is absurd on a multitude of levels. Here's a clue: Mohammed didn't need to shoot firearms in HIS day (they didn't exist of course), so why the hell do you?
You can expect death to rain down upon you every time you "celebrate" in such a fashion. You can either wise up and stop shooting or you can give Allah a big kiss when you see him in hell.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
05/21/2004 9:44 Comments ||
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#10
Chris, knock that shit off. Those goat-humpers don't like being called camel-fuckers, ya know...
A LEADING member of the Iraqi Governing Council, Ahmed Chalabi, cut ties with the US-led coalition after a police and military raid on his house, as President George W. Bush sought to ease Republican fears over Iraqâs future.
But new photos of abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, a report of abuses at another secret facility, and accusations - strongly denied by the US military - that 41 people celebrating a wedding were killed in a US air raid cast fresh shadows over the US occupation.
US forces were also involved in fierce clashes with militiamen loyal to radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in the Shiite holy city of Najaf.
Chalabi, once the darling of the Pentagon, said his relations with the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) were "non-existent" after Iraqi police and US troops stormed his house and office, confiscating files and computers.
Chalabi said after the overnight attack on his complex in Baghdad that the governing council would hold emergency talks today to discuss a response.
"I am Americaâs best friend in Iraq; if the CPA finds it necessary to direct an armed attack against my home you can see the state of relations between the CPA and the Iraqi people," he said.
Coalition spokesman Dan Senor dodged questions about the raids, saying they had been "Iraqi-led" and that "Chalabi has worked closely with us over a number of months" to rebuild the country.
Washington has sought to distance itself from Chalabi, a secular Shiite Muslim, in recent months amid claims his Iraqi National Congress (INC) fed false information to the US government before the March 2003 US-led invasion.
In Washington, the Pentagon said Wednesday it had halted its monthly payments of $US340,000 to the INC and would seek other intelligence sources on Iraq.
A report commissioned by the US Congress said the INC had received about $US33 million from the US between March 2000 and September 2003, in part to set up regular television broadcasts beamed at the Iraqi interior.
But because of distrust between the INC and the State Department, the money was disbursed in short-term and irregular increments, short-circuiting efforts to realise the goal of the money, the General Accounting Office said.
Meanwhile, Bush made a rare visit to Congress to rally fellow Republicans rattled by the Iraq unrest and polls showing him in trouble ahead of the November 2 elections.
Lawmakers emerging from the closed-door session described Bush as optimistic about his re-election bid and determined to return Iraq to self-rule June 30.
"The President was upbeat," said Senator Rick Santorum. "He talked about Iraq, about getting the budget passed, and assured the June 30 handover to the Iraqis."
Recent opinion polls show Bushâs job approval ratings at the lowest levels of his presidency.
Bush has apologised for the Abu Ghraib scandal but it resurged with the release of two new photographs of US troops with a dead Iraqi.
In the images, US soldiers identified as Specialist Charles Graner and Specialist Sabrina Harman are seen grinning with their thumbs up as they stand over the corpse of an Iraqi detainee lying on a black bag.
The two are among the seven US guards at Abu Ghraib already charged with prisoner abuse. One, Jeremy Sivits, was sentenced to a year in jail on Wednesday in the first court-martial over the affair.
The Defence Department is also investigating claims that US troops violated the Geneva Conventions interrogating Iraqis at a top-secret jail near Baghdadâs airport, US television NBC News reported, citing two senior government officials.
Coalition military leaders also scoffed at another potential scandal, saying US troops attacked a suspected safe house used by foreign fighters, killing 41 people.
Residents of the western desert town of Qaim, near the Syrian border, said US helicopters targeted a district early Wednesday where a wedding was being held.
The US military has agreed to investigate the incident, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, the coalitionâs military spokesman, said, stressing the attack was based on intelligence that insurgents were gathering in the remote desert region.
"How many people go to the desert 16km from the Syrian border and hold a wedding many miles from the nearest city?" Marine Major General James Mattis asked.
The strike however prompted swift concern from the International Committee of the Red Cross about the use of force by the US military.
"We are concerned about the excessive use of force which violates international human rights," Nada Dumani, the ICRC spokeswoman in Baghdad, said. "Even if (you come under) fire, there are rules of proportion in retaliation and the absolute need to prevent civilian casualties."
Posted by: tipper ||
05/21/2004 12:28:41 AM ||
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#1
"cast fresh shadows over the US occupation"
What has this got to do with the subject of the article? Every seemingly negative event in Iraq is depicted as evidence of an imagined looming disaster. This meme is hammered into the public perception every minute of every day and it is not likely that it can be countered by facts. Only those people who don't let their imaginations and fears dominate them will have the presence of mind see through the BS. I hope there are enough of us to prevail.
#2
I must admit to being somewhat puzzled that someone is going to all that trouble to take incriminating photos. If you're doing stuff you don't want people to know about, you don't take pictures of it, because people are going to see it. Not a conspiracy theory, mind you, just something I find strange.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 9:48 Comments ||
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#3
"I am Americaâs best friend in Iraq; if the CPA finds it necessary to direct an armed attack against my home you can see the state of relations between the CPA and the Iraqi people," Chalabi said.
Just a weird coincidence, but didn't Nick Berg's moonbat father say that al Qaeda (or the Iraqis) lost their "best friend" when they beheaded his son?
Posted by: Tibor ||
05/21/2004 11:32 Comments ||
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RAFAH, Gaza Stripped (AP) - Food and water are running low, there's no milk for the nine babies and toddlers, and the older children are terrified. For Khalil Shagfa's extended family of 55, as for thousands of others in this besieged refugee camp, the Israeli incursion has brought fear and deprivation. Shagfa says Red Thingy Cross supplies have reached a mosque across the street but he can't collect them because of the ammo crates in the wayheavy Israeli fire. "The milk is almost finished, the Pampers are out, we're tearing up old clothes and using them as diapers. And we're out of water, we ran out this morning," said Shagfa, 53, whose relatives are all trapped in their apartments in a Rafah building by the Israeli offensive.
But no, they haven't hit bottom yet.
Israel launched the raid Tuesday, less than a week after Palestinian militants killed 13 soldiers in Gaza. Officials and relief groups warned of a humanitarian crisis unless water and electricity are restored to Tel Sultan, the area of Rafah that has taken the brunt of the incursion. But fears were likely to ease after residents said that Israeli troops and tanks began pulling out of the refugee camp at daybreak Friday after a three-day sweep that left 39 Palestinians dead. Israel military sources merely confirmed the troops were "redeploying."
The International Committee of the Red Thingy Cross said Thursday it was working to get food, water and medical supplies to Tel Sultan's 25,000 occupants. The Tel Aviv-based group Physicians for Human Rights except for Israeli Children said Israeli restrictions on the movement of ambulances were hindering the resupply of Paleo terror units evacuation of the wounded. Residents of neighboring Khan Younis smuggled two trucks with food, blankets and ammo other supplies into Rafah on Thursday, using back roads to get around the army blockade. However, they were unable to distribute the supplies because it was too dangerous to enter the parts of the camp controlled by Israel, organizers of the relief mission said.
Fayez Abu Shammale, one of the volunteers, said the trucks had to sneak through olive groves within 100 yards of Israeli tanks.
Explain to the crowd, Fayez, why the Israelis -- who knew you were there -- let you live. Perhaps they have more restraint than you know?
Residents said the most pressing need was for water - the supply of running water had been cut off, and many rooftop tanks have run dry or been pierced by Israeli bullets. Witnesses said 37-year-old Khalil Assar was killed and two of his relatives were wounded by army fire Thursday as they tried to take out an APC with a rocket launcher fix a bullet-riddled water tank atop an apartment building.
An old cemetery in Rafah was reopened Thursday to bury seven of the dead terrorists; the new cemetery, located in the area of fighting, was out of reach. At Rafah's small hospital and a nearby makeshift morgue, 25 terrorist bodies were awaiting burial. Relatives were unable to arrange for funerals because they live in parts of the camp controlled by Israeli troops and could not leave their homes.
Troops pushed farther into the crowded camp Thursday. Several families said they were forced to leap from windows as army bulldozers rammed their homes. "Our neighbor stood on the roof of his house and pleaded with the army to let him get his grandfather out of the house, he's old and moves slowly especially when burdened down with an RPG," said Ahmad Ishta, a resident of Rafah's Brazil neighborhood. Four people helped the elderly man get out of the house.
"Dump Grandpa, git that RPG!"
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/21/2004 12:22:14 AM ||
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#1
Couldn't help but notice that all corpses were wrapped in Hamas/affiliated flags - correct? If so the Israelis are probly doing a decent job.
#5
Wonderful crossed-out truths additions, Steve. Had me laughing the whole way through. Fact is that often, they bring it upon themselves, and then whine and expect others to feel pity/pay/deal with consequences. I have to wonder how much farther the Palestinian deathwish cause would be if they hadn't deliberately initiated a war. After all, the youngsters who are going "Boom!" are the very guys they'd need to build a vibrant state, and the services they're destroying would be vital to the functioning of a society. These idiots are shooting themselves in the foot over and over again.
Posted by: The Doctor ||
05/21/2004 12:31 Comments ||
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Israeli troops and tanks began pulling out of the Rafah refugee camp at daybreak Friday, residents said, after a three-day sweep that left 39 Palestinians dead and drew international criticism. Israeli military sources confirmed that soldiers were "redeploying" after the operation in the camp, but they said that in principle, the search for weapons-smuggling tunnels under the border would continue. But Palestinian security officials said Israeli snipers continued to control buildings, and attack helicopters were in the sky. Doctors said that relief convoys could not yet enter the camp. Palestinians said most of the Israeli tanks had left the Tel Sultan neighborhood, the focus of the operation, and others were pulling out of the Brazil section next to the Gaza-Egypt border. As the tanks trundled out, hundreds of residents rushed into the streets to inspect the damage caused during the Israeli operation. But Israeli forces opened fire, and leaders urged people to remain indoors, a local doctor said. Tanks were also pulling out of the section next to the Gaza-Egypt border, residents and Palestinian security officials said. As recently as Wednesday, Israeli leaders insisted that the operation in the Rafah refugee camp in southern Gaza would continue. However, withering international criticism may have had an effect on the Israeli leadership, especially pointed U.S. displeasure, underlined by the U.S. abstention on a U.N. Security Council resolution condemning the Israeli operation.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2004 12:20:02 AM ||
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DEBKAfileâs Special Correspondent in Rafah reports: Israelâs Rafah operation goes on Friday. Reports of troop withdrawals are incorrect
They come from two sources: Israeli political circles hoping to stop anti-Israel diplomatic and media campaign, and Palestinians, to draw civilians out of homes in Tel Sultan and Brazil districts and lure Israeli forces into booby-trapped alleys where ambush squads await.
Israeli troops now resting outside war zone waiting for fresh, smaller relief forces. No diminution of armored force or Golani, Givati and Egoz special operations units fighting in Rafah region.
#3
You know that if Egypt had not violated the peace accord it had signed with Israel, by allowing the weapons smuggling tunnels from its territory into Gaza and the flow of heavy arms, the Israeli army would not have entered and be pulling out now.
"especially pointed U.S. displeasure, underlined by the U.S. abstention...."
Why didn't the US show displeasure at Egypt's behaviour of the past few years? Don't tell me it was to keep Egypt quiet about Iraq only to have it stoke the fire under Collin's roadmap.
#4
Israeli troops and tanks began pulling out of the Rafah refugee camp at daybreak Friday
. . . Israeli troops now resting outside war zone waiting for fresh, "smaller" relief forces.
The Eitan UAV; It's not just for chasing escaped ostriches from a zoo.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
