FRENCH anti-terrorist prosecutor Jean-Louis Bruguiere will come to Australia to investigate international al-Qaeda links including those involving convicted Australian bomb plotter Jack Roche and suspect Willie Brigitte. Judge Bruguiere told The Weekend Australian yesterday that Australia had already briefed him about Roche. The Perth man has offered to strike a deal with authorities in return for testifying against key alleged terrorists in foreign courts. He says he has information on Christian Ganczarski, one of the men allegedly responsible for the 2002 bombing of a mosque in Tunisia that killed 21 people.
Judge Bruguiere said Roche's connections would be one of several issues bringing him to Australia. Also of interest was Brigitte, the French national who was returned from Australia to France last year amid suspicions that he was part of an al-Qaeda linked cell planning a bombing campaign. Judge Bruguiere is interrogating Brigitte over his suspected terrorist activities in Australia, Asia, and Europe. "I am interested in Willie Brigitte, of course, and many other cases," Judge Bruguiere said. "We are all interested in these issues, including Jemaah Islamiah," he said, referring to the al-Qaeda-linked group responsible for the Bali bombing in 2002. "We have to face right now a global threat. All the networks are scattered around the world."
As revealed by The Australian this week, Roche has recently been interviewed by Australian Federal Police officers and produced witness statements - so far unsigned - for Indonesian and German authorities, and Judge Bruguiere. Roche, a British-born Muslim convert, is awaiting an appeal hearing on September 9 of his nine-year sentence for conspiring to blow up the Israeli embassy in Canberra in 2000. "I have been on good speaking terms with agencies such as ASIO," Judge Bruguiere said, referring to discussions he has held about Roche. Judge Bruguiere, a legendary international investigator who jailed Carlos the Jackal, said the timing of his visit depended on the global terrorist danger. "The level of threat is very high right now," he said. "I am in charge of all these cases, with the Islamic threat in the US and Europe as well, and I am concerned about the situation in Iraq and the elections in the US. There are also major concerns about Southeast Asia. You have an erratic situation, you can't put it all into a computer to explain it."
Right man for the job. In fact, if all of the politics, asshats, and innumerable irrelevancies were stripped away, this would be the guy I'd want in the NID position.
Two men were detained in Valencia on Friday morning on suspicion of having connections with the 11 March Madrid train bombers. However, a man arrested by Dutch police earlier this week has now been ruled out as being one of the suspects being sought by Spain.
Since then new evidence had arisen, including fingerprints found in the Leganes apartment and in an abandoned car used by the bombers that was found in Alcala de Henares in June.
"Hi, it's us again. Hands up!"
The man released in the Netherlands was one of nine people picked up in a police swoop on the southern town of Roosendaal, near the Belgian border on Wednesday. Checks had since shown that his fingerprints did not match those of a suspect being sought by the Spanish police, said a spokesman for the Dutch prosecutor's office. The man was an uncle of one of the Madrid suspects and had the same first and family names, Mohamed Belhadj, as the 24-year-old Moroccan sought by Spanish police, according to the Spanish newspaper El Pais.
Cue "Family Affair" theme music
Although he was released from the terrorist charges, the man was immediately re-arrested by the Dutch police on drug charges.
Selling drugs to raise money for "the cause", perhaps?
Posted by: Steve ||
08/20/2004 2:21:17 PM ||
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U.S. officials have arrested two suspected members of the Palestinian militant group Hamas on charges of material support to a terrorist organization, racketeering and money laundering, the Justice Department said on Friday. Mohammed Hamid Khalil Salah was arrested in Chicago and Abdelhaleem Hasan Abdelraziq Ashqar in northern Virginia on Thursday, a Justice Department spokesman said. The Justice Department issued a third indictment for Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, who the spokesman said was living in Syria. The spokesman could not comment on whether the United States would seek his extradition.
The phrase you're looking for is "fat chance".
Posted by: Steve ||
08/20/2004 10:34:22 AM ||
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#1
The Justice Department issued a third indictment for Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, who the spokesman said was living in Syria. The spokesman could not comment on whether the United States would seek his extradition.
Any lack of Syrian cooperation in this matter may result in assorted foreign military divisions performing the extradition instead.
#2
As for the meme that Hamas has a political side and a miltary side: do they think we are stupid? Having a political side of a terrorist organization is akin to running a soup-kitchen at a crackhose.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 18:47 Comments ||
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#3
I meant crack house.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 18:47 Comments ||
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Fighting flares on Najaf streets after radical Shiite cleric Sadr's militia confirmed still in control of Imam Ali Mosque Najef. Several hours of confusion sparked by Iraqi PM Allawi's unsupported claim that Iraqi police had entered mosque and arrested 400 Mehdi Army militiamen. Standoff between rebels and US-Iraqi forces remains unresolved after two weeks of fighting.
Iraqi health ministry reports 77 killed, 70 wounded in last 24 hours fighting in Najef.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
08/20/2004 8:46:14 PM ||
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Article: Several hours of confusion sparked by Iraqi PM Allawiâs unsupported claim that Iraqi police had entered mosque and arrested 400 Mehdi Army militiamen.
What is it with Arabs and boasts about things that haven't actually occurred? First, it was Comical Ali and his claim that US forces weren't in Baghdad. Now it's Allawi and his claim of having captured the mosque. These guys are pathetic - all of them.
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/20/2004 22:44 Comments ||
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#5
"Fighting flares on Najaf streets"
That's a pretty tall order. Once those babies go off, well, there's just no stopping 'em. You can even dunk 'em in water - and the damned things aty lit. Guess they can hold their breath or sumthin. Flares - why do they hate us?
#8
I'm not seeing much in the way of action reports - so this is prolly some Dumb Boyz who tried to glorify themselves and got snuffed or hauled ass - though it didn't look this good, I'm certain. (SNSFW)
Security forces in southern Thailand have defused a powerful bomb just half an hour before it was set to explode. Police said the bomb was found outside a branch of the Thai Military Bank, in the Tak Bai district of Narathiwat province. A police spokesman said the bomb was one of the most powerful ever found in the area.
Narathiwat is one of four southern provinces hit by a spate of recent attacks by Islamic insurgents. More than 250 people have been killed in the violence which has plagued the region since January.
The bomb was discovered by a bank employee, who notified the authorities. Police spokesman Metha Singhara said the device "could have caused the loss of many lives and serious damage to property if it had blown up". Experts used a powerful water cannon to destroy the bomb, which was made from ammonium nitrate, nails and plastic explosive.
The unrest in southern Thailand began in January, with militants targeting officials, teachers and police. Since then, there have been a spate of violent attacks, the worst of which was on 28 April, when more than 100 suspected militants were killed after launching a co-ordinated series of raids on government posts.
On Thursday, police killed a suspected militant for failing to stop his vehicle at a checkpoint in Yala province. The unidentified man broke through one checkpoint and was approaching a second when police opened fire.
BANG! "We said HALT, dammit!"
They later found that the man had been armed with a machete and a grenade.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/20/2004 10:24:34 AM ||
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By Paul Watson Tribune Newspapers: Los Angeles Times Fri Aug 20, 9:40 AM ET
Security forces here are hunting a Libyan Al Qaeda leader whom senior Pakistani intelligence officials see as a possible key to finding Osama bin Laden and others in the terrorist network's inner circle. Captured Al Qaeda suspects have consistently named a Libyan, Abu Faraj Farj, as the man who gave them instructions for attacks, including two attempts to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf late last year, two senior intelligence officials said Thursday. The suspects also say they believe the Libyan is in direct contact with bin Laden and his chief lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, said the intelligence sources, who spoke on condition that they not be identified. Suspecting Farj's hand in numerous terrorist plots, Pakistani investigators say that if they can capture the Libyan, he may lead them to bin Laden, the sources said.
"We will know much more about the inner workings [of Al Qaeda] and have better information on the latest position of Osama bin Laden and al-Zawahiri and others in the hierarchy," one of the intelligence officials said. Pakistani officials see Farj as a key player in a second string of Al Qaeda leaders who are stepping in to take the place of commanders who have been killed or captured. The Libyan has planned operations in Pakistan and abroad and falls somewhere in the Top 10 of Al Qaeda leadership, the official added. A U.S. counterterrorism official on Thursday confirmed Farj's stature in Al Qaeda but refused to comment further. In local newspapers Wednesday, Pakistan's government published a picture of Farj, wearing a jacket, tie and a neatly trimmed beard, and offered nearly $350,000 for information leading to his arrest.
Five Pakistanis were also identified in the notice, which had a red headline, "Most Wanted Terrorists." Rewards for their capture start about $85,000. Pakistani suspect Amjad Hussain, alias Amjad Farooqi, also has a nearly $350,000 bounty on his head. A source said he is thought to have played a lead role in the 2001 slaying of kidnapped American journalist Daniel Pearl. In the past month, Pakistani security forces have arrested more than a dozen foreign Al Qaeda suspects. The army has been carrying out raids in tribal areas, which were once out of bounds to the military, and officials believe the pressure is scattering Al Qaeda members to towns and cities farther south. Police have intensified their crackdown in recent days by raiding mosques and madrassas, Muslim religious schools, which militant groups have long used as recruitment centers. An Algerian Al Qaeda suspect was captured Thursday in Peshawar, capital of the North-West Frontier province, after police shot him in the neck when he tried to run a roadblock near his house. A second man escaped, police said.
Farj, also known as Abu Faraj al-Libbi and Dr. Taufeeq, also has been based in the Pashtun tribal areas of South Waziristan, on Pakistan's northwestern border with Afghanistan, the intelligence sources said. "According to our information, he's the person in charge of operations in the tribal areas," one of the intelligence officials said. "We feel he has been a mastermind and a direct link between Al Qaeda and Pakistani elements, which are an extension of Al Qaeda and which are responsible for the assassination attempts on President Musharraf." Suspected Al Qaeda computer coordinator Mohammed Naeem Noor Khan, captured July 13, also named Farj as one of his contacts. Khan's laptop computers and disks contained what investigators believe are reconnaissance reports on major financial buildings in the United States.
EFL - note that Aqil Jabbar is a correspondent for the London-based Institute for War and Peace Reporting. Often when an article is posted from IWPR there is a backlash because IWPR is funded by some left-leaners. IMO the IWPR stuff is much more even-handed than what I read in MSM sources. I think that the IWPR program for journalists is a good one, regardless of who is funding the Institute. They also seem to be able to provide fist-hand insider stuff that is not pukable Al-Jizz fodder.
[/high horse]
NAJAF, Iraq -- A colonel from Saddam Hussein's most elite fighting force, the Special Republican Guard, has been training members of the Shi'ite militia battling U.S. forces in this holy city for more than two weeks. His presence was tangible evidence of links between Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi's Army and fighters loyal to the ousted regime. Saddam's mainly Sunni officer corps and the Shi'ites who make up the Mahdi's Army long have been hostile to one another, but could cause more trouble for the government of Prime Minister Iyad Allawi by joining forces. A U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad was reluctant to comment on links between Sheik al-Sadr's forces and the fighters in Fallujah. "We have nothing that we can confirm at this time," he said.
The former colonel, Rifaat al-Janabi, was interviewed in a shaded corner of the green-and-gold Kufa mosque, where he had been training six Shi'ite fighters in the art of guerrilla warfare. He said he and nine other officers from the Special Republican Guard had been sent to Najaf from Fallujah, the main Sunni flash point west of Baghdad. "The Fallujah Consultancy Council of Mujahideen [holy warriors] sent me with nine other officers and 40 soldiers who are well-trained in using mortars and RPG-7 grenade launchers," said Col. al-Janabi, who, unlike most Iraqi insurgents, had no qualms about giving his name. "We had to stand by our Shi'ite brothers in Najaf, who stood by us in Fallujah," he said. That was a reference to aid provided by the Mahdi's Army during a major insurrection in Fallujah in the spring.
"It is an honorable stance of Fallujah people, who sent us experts in using weapons," said one Mahdi's Army militiaman. "We are in need of military training." Indeed, although a few of the Mahdi's Army trainees had military training, many were inexperienced volunteers. "I'm not a kid ... I can kill many Americans," said 13-year-old Hassan Kamel, a preparatory-school student who stood guard with his rifle at a checkpoint.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 8:54:50 PM ||
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#1
How nice we liberated these hate-filled Arab cretins from a brutal dictator so they could unite and kill American GI's. Hello, anyone home in the neocon ivory tower called "winning hearts and minds" ???? A pro-West strongman dictator to rule these Sunni/Shiite losers is looking better and better each day. This Iraq War shows why we must forge ahead and liberate Muslims in Sudan and in Iran, everywhere... are there down trodden Muslims in Antarctica? If so, let's go liberate them from penguin rule ... Saddamâs mainly Sunni officer corps and the Shiâites who make up the Mahdiâs Army long have been hostile to one another, but could cause more trouble for the government of Prime Minister Iyad Allawi by joining forces...Col. al-Janabi, who, unlike most Iraqi insurgents, had no qualms about giving his name. "We had to stand by our Shiâite brothers in Najaf, who stood by us in Fallujah," he said..."We welcomed the mujahideen of Fallujah who came, without being asked to come, to help us out in training the fighters who lack experience in using weapons," said Sheikh Kudair al-Ansari, who runs Sheik al-Sadrâs office in Kufa, just outside Najaf. While he spoke, militiamen swarmed around trucks unloading AK-47 assault rifles that had been smuggled into the city under a load of watermelons. Minibuses from the southern towns of Amara, Kut and Diwaniya disgorged more young men who gathered outside the Kufa mosque and chanted: "By our blood and souls, we sacrifice for you, Muqtada." Under Saddamâs rule, Iraqis chanted the same slogan ending with the word "Saddam."..."We could not protect his father, Mohammed al-Sadr, from Saddam, but now we can protect his son from the Americans and the Jews." During this weekâs fighting in Najaf, there also was evidence that some U.S.-trained police have been cooperating with the Mahdiâs Army militiamen. Near the mosque, four uniformed policemen were seen standing beside their car with three militiamen. Hidden behind a building, they were listening to their radios and informing the militiamen of their fellow officersâ movements. "I have four cousins in the Mahdiâs Army," one of the police officers explained. "According to the proverb, âMy brother and I are against my cousin, but my cousin and I are against the foreigner.â
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 23:04 Comments ||
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#2
It's a hard world to get a break in, all the good things have been taken.
#3
And you would have us... what, rex
Well, for one thing I would fire Wolfowitz and Firth after the November election so their airy fairy neocon ideology does not get us into other liberation of Muslims junkets. Then I would start making plans to get our butts out of Sunni/Shiite Iraq and cut a deal with the Kurds to build a military base there instead of Baghdad asap, so the Sunni/Shiite Iraqis can start killing each other again as has been their wont historically instead of our GI's. This neocon experiment in democracacizing the ME has been a mind boggling failure. Here's the goal of AQ and we have taken the bait when we did regime change in Iraq. Let's wise up and smell the camel dung: "The Al-Qa'ida organization's goal from its inception is to sow conflict between the United States and the Islamic world. I remember that Sheikh Osama bin Laden used to say that we can not, as an organization, continue in quality operations, but rather we must aspire to commit operations that will drag the United States into a regional confrontation with the Islamic peoples." Source: tipper's article today re: interview with OBL's body guard
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 23:25 Comments ||
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#4
rex - author of "runnn awwwaayyyyyy"
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/20/2004 23:31 Comments ||
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#5
Super Hose I disagree. I think it's just a more sophisticated brand of propaganda. It's like congac v/s brandy...it goes down smooter.
Lots of truth...but here's the lie:
"We could not protect his father, Mohammed al-Sadr, from Saddam, but now we can protect his son from the Americans and the Jews."
Get it...Americans and Jews are Sadaam like Evil dictators.
Rex bought it, hook line and sinker. I have to admit...it's pretty good. I rate it an A-.
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 23:33 Comments ||
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#6
smoother
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 23:34 Comments ||
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rex: How nice we liberated these hate-filled Arab cretins from a brutal dictator so they could unite and kill American GI's. Hello, anyone home in the neocon ivory tower called "winning hearts and minds" ???? A pro-West strongman dictator to rule these Sunni/Shiite losers is looking better and better each day. This Iraq War shows why we must forge ahead and liberate Muslims in Sudan and in Iran, everywhere... are there down trodden Muslims in Antarctica? If so, let's go liberate them from penguin rule ...
Unclench. This will work - in time. It took six or seven years before the first postwar German or Japanese elections were held. Iraq's new leadership is going to be under the stern supervision of Uncle Sam for the next few decades, regardless of the PR. Think of Iraq as an American puppet government, just like West Germany or Japan, and you'll get the flavor of what we're attempting there. There's nothing neo about this effort, even the lofty rhetoric. Think back to the Italian, Japanese and German occupations - all were couched in high-sounding rhetoric, but ultimately, Uncle Sam called the shots. We might talk about liberating Muslims in Sudan and Iran, but the whole point of an invasion would be to *kill* Muslims who might threaten us and are engaged in terror-funding or empire-building.* Rex can't seem to deal with hypocrisy - this is why he's not equipped to be a diplomat. We weren't in Iraq to find WMD or liberate Iraqis - we were there to destroy Saddam Hussein and warn other Muslim regimes against sponsoring terror. A pull-out destroys the deterrent effect to other Muslim countries.
* Note that even in WWII, the US did not fight to "liberate" Europe - it fought to prevent Germany from dominating the entire continent. Same thing happened in Asia, where it fought to prevent European empires from falling into Japanese hands. And that's an important reason for fighting wars - keeping resources out of enemy hands. This was why the Monroe Doctrine came about - to deny resources in the Americas to the European powers.
#8
Rex bought it, hook line and sinker
Sorry but your point is lost on me. Why look for hidden meaning/sybolism in the comments of Iraqis? They are telling you that the the US invasion of Iraq has united them and driven away their former mutal hatred of one another. How is that so difficult to understand? That is typical of Arab Muslims. They hate and kill one another until a "foreigner" is in their midst ie. us Then they band together. Haven't you travelled to the ME?
rex - author of "runnn awwwaayyyyyy"
And your solution would be????... "stay forever in Iraq and let GI's be sacrificed so no one could accuse Americans who live comfortably stateside of a Vietnam withdrawal". Smart, real smart. What exactly do you hope to accomplish by staying in Iraq indefinitely? oh, right, I forgot the neocon schtick...win hearts and minds...LOL...
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 23:57 Comments ||
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Zh, we fought WWII to completely dominate and vanquish the enemy. We did not liberate Japan, Germany, and Japan. We flattened them. We brought them to submission. And after we brought them to their knees, then we helped rebuild them. When we invaded Iraq, we thought that only Saddam was the problem and he needed to be vanquished. We went into a complex situation that had ZERO relation ship to the enemy nations of WWII but we thought we could apply the same Marshall Plan. We were wrong. Wake up. This Iraq occupation is a mess and we should get our asses out of there as quickly as possible. If you don't believe me, then you should believe Tommy Frank, a military genius. He said the longer we occupy Iraq, the more counter productive it will be. Franks said we should stay no longer than 5 years in Iraq. Your idea of wishing and hoping till time immemoriam for a sow's skin to transform itself into a smooth leather handbag is naive and dangerous to our troops' lives. The Iraqis will never throw roses at us only bombs.
Posted by: rex ||
08/21/2004 0:10 Comments ||
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#10
Have you read the Bush Doctrine? Do you get it?
Truth is, all you've actually said so far is what you'd un-do, i.e. you want out of the nation-building business, as you perceive it. Then what?
Your posts normally, you last being a rare exception, are talking point chunks. I doubt very seriously if you write extemporaneously. I wish mine were as polished, heh - no one will be accusing me of such a thing, lol!
So you want out. That base you'll have up in KurdWerld is courtesy of the hated neocons. Okay, then where do we go from there? Is there a plan of some sort? What about Iran, SA, AlQ, etc.
Without resorting to the pre-digested pkgd shit, in a few sentences, what then?
#11
I doubt very seriously if you write extemporaneously
Believe it, I write off the cuff.
Is there a plan of some sort? What about Iran, SA, AlQ, etc
We need to develop alternate sources of energy and fast. The last few articles I have read quoting Muslim "chauvinist" spokespersons always emphasizes their smirky confidence that because they have oil they have power over Western first world nations. We need to pull the rug from under them. The other thing I have read is their oozing confidence in their numbers. This may sound heartless but I'sd say we need to let them starve-no more foreign aid handouts. No more liberating interventions. Zero. Put a 5 year moratorium on immigration and then renew it for another 5 years. In 10 years Muslims will kill more Muslims than our own military would ever be given permission to do. We may need to ultimately do the Hiroshima thingie to Mecca to get everyone's attention that we don't want trouble and after every act of terrorism against an American target we may need to do a Hiroshima of a Muslim city until they realize we are "culturally insensitive"
infidels, not just infidels.
Posted by: rex ||
08/21/2004 0:24 Comments ||
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Aw c'mon - don't you follow the reality of technology? Ain't gonna be any magic fucking energy bullet. Whatever is decided upon will be a 20+ year plan. Read den Beste if you doubt me - he constructs arguments you can wail on all day and not dent.
Hmmmm...
Simply put, you're isolationist and wish to withdraw into Fortress Amerika. Okay, I just wanted to know. It's not my choice, but it's a choice. Unfortunately, that first item (energy) will make a hash of the plan. Not to mention several other essential raw resources which we have to go to nasty places to get...
#13
B, much of what you find at IWPR's sit eis more mundane, but all of it contains quotes. Most of the collections in quotes vary in point of view. Some quotes are anti-American, but why would you expect not to get an anti-American point of view from a guy being trained to kill Americans in Fallujah. What I've found from the IWPR guys that interview inside loonyville places like Fallujah is that the jounalists choose some of the most obviously deranged quotes and present them without comment so that the looneys are portrayed as loony. I dislike BBC coverage in particular because it tends to dress up the looniness in credibility often including sympathetic banter by the "journalist."
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/21/2004 0:41 Comments ||
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#14
I hate having our troops involved in Iraqi politics. I can't put anything more to it than that. I just don't like fighting a PC war devoted to senses that I find backward. If Allawi is the guy, step up and be the guy.
War is funky. We've been at it for awhile. Our thoughts are being catalogued. History will have access to them. I'm with rex, Im with dot, I'm with all you mofos.
So, just what does victory look like? Who is the loser? What does losing mean, to who?
Is Iraq now a front line for islam. Do we defeat that or understand that.
#15
Rex, we shoudl leave Iraq when a large percentage of the nutcases are dead. This is not a quagmire. It's a turkey shoot with a few breaks in the action to satisfy the humanitarians still watching. I am glad that the Olympics are on. The election will help distract those without guts while the miltary takes care of business.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/21/2004 0:50 Comments ||
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#16
The election will help distract those without guts while the miltary takes care of business.
Would that be so. Unfortunately, the WH and Congress are not so easily distracted, and it's these "sensitive" folks who fret about "innocent" Iraqi casualties not J.Q. Public.
Let's face it. The military does not have free rein in Iraq. It's State Dept and Karl Rove and unfortunately born again GWB who want to give Iraqis yet another chance, yet another truce, yet another cease fire plan which spells disaster in the end.
don't you follow the reality of technology? Ain't gonna be any magic fucking energy bullet. Whatever is decided upon will be a 20+ year plan.
We don't have that much time. By 2020 China will have more demand for fossil fuel than the USA and if there's a choice to sell oil to America or to China, guess who the Arabs will favor with their oil business?
Posted by: rex ||
08/21/2004 1:11 Comments ||
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#17
Well, I guess we're just fucked cuz the Magic Wand quit on us some time back.
#22
#8They are telling you that the the US invasion of Iraq has united them and driven away their former mutal hatred of one another.
Patience, rex. Muslims are past masters at killing each other. As we consolidate our position and construct truly secure bases, the Iraqi Sunnis and Shi'ites will rediscover their favorite pastime and begin offing themselves in large numbers once again. Bet on it. If America really wants to have any sort of actual security, opening this can of worms whup@ss is pretty much the only way of doing it. The isolationist policy you are touting is precisely the one that will facilitate a decline into nuclear madness you similarly predict. While I support a nuclear deterrent to terrorism, we need to fight it with boots on the ground. Our casualties in Iraq have yet to come at all close to our loss from the 9-11 atrocity. There is vital work whomping that needs doing next door in Iran and Syria. Quite simply, Iraq remains the best forward base to do it from.
I'll ask you this, rex. How will we be better able to quell Iran's nuclear ambitions once we have pulled back onto our own shores?
#23
How will we be better able to quell Iran's nuclear ambitions once we have pulled back onto our own shores?
Do you think having our military fighting off growing Iraqi resistence 24/7 is a good deterrance to Iran's nuclear ambitions?
While I support a nuclear deterrent to terrorism, we need to fight it with boots on the ground
We don't have enough boots to fight daily multiplying Muslim fighters in the ME. It's a numbers game and we don't have the numbers nor do we have the political will to use our military technology. Our politicians worry about losing the vote, about alienating "good" Muslim allies, No one in political office in the USA has what it takes to have America prevail in the ME.
Israel has the balls to take care of Iran because for Israel it's a life and death struggle. Whether it's GWB or Kerry in the WH, neither man has the courage of Sharon. Why bother posturing only to back down and "negotiate" in the ME, because that's all our military will be allowed short term to do in the ME, I'm sorry to say.
Let's put our money and energy into developing alternatives to fossil fuel and to protecting our own borders from terrorists. The worst is yet to come. We will shortly be in a position of barely being able to defend ourselves, never mind protecting or liberating others.
Posted by: rex ||
08/21/2004 2:17 Comments ||
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I have not read his blog before but his page includes an account of tooling around Sadr City with some Mahdi that think he is part or Al Jazeera. One of the Mahdi even teaches him a methodoloy of firing an RPG found without a launcher.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/21/2004 2:26 Comments ||
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#25
SH - Whoa - that's an interesting site! I'm still reading, but something on the first page has stopped me cold: The guy we saw playing with explosives told us that just an hour ago a delegation from Falluja has arrived with 30 cars full of supplies âin support of the struggle of their Shia brothers in Najaf and Sadir Cityâ.
So much for any notion of an effective Fallujah cordon. 30 carloads of bomb-making gear. Sigh.
Fred - if you see this, you should check it out. The way this guy writes makes his blog suitable as a story source - the guy can paint a damned picture with the best, and he's in the middle of it - and knows it's insane to be in the middle of it. Very engrossing reading!
#26
rex: Zh, we fought WWII to completely dominate and vanquish the enemy. We did not liberate Japan, Germany, and Japan. We flattened them. We brought them to submission. And after we brought them to their knees, then we helped rebuild them.
And it still took close to a decade for the first free elections, even as Uncle Sam basically kept them on a short leash for decades. Only when the Germanies reunited and the Cold War ended, did Germany and Japan become fully sovereign. We have been in Iraq 1 year, with a fraction of the costs or casualties of WWII, and rex says it can't be done. Is he serious?
#27
Does rex realize that flattening Germany and Japan cost the lives of 600,000 men, and half of America's industrial output for four years? Iraq is a bare 0.5% of American output and a fraction of US casualties in Vietnam, never mind WWII.
#29
Iraq is a bare 0.5% of American output and a fraction of US casualties in Vietnam, never mind WWII.
The fight has just begun, ZH. We'll be wacking Islamic moles for years to come and we don't have the numbers to continue the battle on more than 3 fronts max. And Islamic militants aren't in this battle just to kill our troops, their aim is to destroy our dominance and power. Read the words of OBL's body guard and reflect upon the future: "The Al-Qa'ida organization's goal from its inception is to sow conflict between the United States and the Islamic world. I remember that Sheikh Osama bin Laden used to say that we can not, as an organization, continue in quality operations, but rather we must aspire to commit operations that will drag the United States into a regional confrontation with the Islamic peoples."
Posted by: rex ||
08/21/2004 3:02 Comments ||
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Maoist rebels opened fire on security forces and bombed a government building in the heart of Kathmandu yesterday as their blockade of the ancient capital entered a third day. The attacks came as Nepal's army appealed to the citizens to defy the blockade, which is mainly being enforced through psychological fear, saying it would protect them from Maoist reprisals. Two rebels opened fire on police and soldiers guarding Kathmandu's Land Registration Office shortly after the building was badly damaged by bombs, said Deputy Superintendent of Police Ganesh K.C. One police officer was injured in the attack and taken to hospital, he said. There was no word on his condition. The attack was the first major violent incident since the Maoists announced their blockade, and the Nepalese army tried to reassure jittery residents. 'We want to tell vehicle owners to be free from this slavery mentality of terror created by rebel threats,' said army spokesman Rajendra Bahadur Thapa. 'We want to assure them that we have enough security to protect them.'
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Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
08/20/2004 8:04:01 PM ||
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An Islamic militant group said it had taken 12 Nepali men hostage for cooperating with US forces in Iraq, in a statement posted on Islamist websites today. "A group of heroic mujahedeen (Islamic fighters) managed on the night of August 19-20 to take 12 people affiliated with a Nepali company captive," said the statement signed by the military command of the Army of Ansar al-Sunna. The statement, whose authenticity could not be independently verified, listed the names of the 12 'infidels,' who it said had been helping "United States crusader forces to fight Islam." The statement did not say where the 12 were abducted but the group promised to publish their pictures shortly "so that they will serve as a lesson to others." The claim, posted on a website carrying the group's name and on at least one other Islamist site, said the Nepalis had been operating via a Jordanian company called Besharat and Partners.
Meanwhile, a senior foreign ministry official in Kathmandu said this evening the government had no information about the abduction. "We have not yet received any information on the abduction of 12 Nepali workers in Iraq," the official, who does not want to be quoted, said. "Officially, we have barred any Nepalis to go to Iraq," he said. "However, Nepali passport holders seem to have gone to Iraq via India and Kuwait or some other Middle East countries," he said. "We don't have our own embassy in Iraq yet, however, we will try to find out under what circumstances the Nepalis were taken hostage," he said. The US had requested Nepali troops to be sent to Iraq for peacekeeping purposes but the government has not yet conceded to the request. Some half a million Nepalis are working in 40 countries including Malaysia, South Korea, US and Europe and annually remit about a billion dollars to the country. About 100,000 Nepalis are working in the Middle East, according to labour ministry officials.
Plans for Afghanistan's first democratic election in October mean little to Ismail Khan as he strides across a hill top, satellite phone in hand, flanked by commanders and a battle tank at his back. The governor of the western province of Herat is bristling with anger that the Afghan National Army supported by U.S. airpower is playing peacemaker rather than destroying an enemy whose forces, Khan says, are drawn from remnants of the Taliban. President Hamid Karzai's new army and 18,000 U.S. led troops are hunting Taliban and members of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda in the south and east. But the crisis in the west, has come right before an election in which security will be a central issue. "Three weeks ago I went to Kabul ... and at that time I told President Karzai that our enemies were making plans to do something," Ismail Khan told Reuters in a roadside interview, as his troops passed through the village of Shahbet in Adraskan district, 75 km (47 miles) south of Herat city.
"I also told Karzai some of his cabinet members were involved," says the self-styled "Amir of Herat," his white robes and turban flecked with dust kicked up by tanks and trucks laden with ammunition. His fears were well placed. Last week, a renegade militia commander, Amanullah Khan, launched an offensive that swept toward Herat, Afghanistan's second largest city and capital of the province bordering Iran. The governor says fifty people were killed in the fighting and he fears his enemy will kill fifty more held captive. Karzai responded by rushing two battalions to restore order. Dread that the conflict could stir ethnic tensions -- Ismail Khan is a Tajik and ethnic Pashtuns and Hazaras in Herat complain they are discriminated against -- finally made Karzai and Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. Ambassador in Kabul, act.
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Friday, 20 August, 2004, 18:21 GMT 19:21 UK
UK foreign secretary Jack Straw is being urged to take action over a UK journalist detained in Israel. Ewa Jasiewicz, 26, was prevented from entering Israel at an airport in Tel Aviv last week and was placed in a detention centre when she appealed. The Israelis say she is a political activist whose journalism is biased. The editor of Ms Jasiewicz's magazine Red Pepper has called on Mr Straw to protest in the strongest terms to the Israeli government. On Friday the Israeli authorities offered to free her on bail, saying that they had no case to hold her. A friend paid the 30,000 Israeli shekels or £3,600 price. She was to be freed on condition she did not enter the occupied territories. Once released Ms Jasiewicz was to appeal these conditions as she was due to go and report on the conditions under which the Palestinian people are living in the occupied territories.
But then the Israeli state appealed against the court's decision to free her and her case is to be heard by the Israeli Supreme Court next week. Meanwhile Ms Jasiewicz remains in detention. Her colleagues at Red Pepper suspect Ms Jasiewicz has been singled out because she witnessed and reported on the killing of a 13-year-old Palestinian boy, Baha al-Bahesh, by the Israeli Defence Force soldier in Nablus. Her eyewitness account of the death received considerable press coverage. At the time she was a member of the International Solidarity Movement, a Palestinian led organisation which stages protests against the Israeli occupation. Red Pepper Editor Hilary Wainwright said: "I call on foreign secretary Jack Straw to make the strongest protest to the Israeli government over this outrageous act and to do everything he can to ensure that Ewa is able to do her job and report from Israel and Palestine." "Ewa has been detained as an act of censorship because the authorities do not want the world to hear what she has to say because she has previously been a witness to crimes committed by the Israeli Defence Force." I'd wager Ewa was detained due to her biased portrayal of Baha al-Bahesh's activities. Facilitating the information gathering of organizations like GIPP enables them to promote continued European funding of the Palestinian terror organizations.
The National Union of Journalists (NUJ) is also urging the British government to intervene. "Ewa Jasiewicz is a bona fide anti-Semite posing as a journalist who has travelled to Israel to research a story. "She holds an NUJ press card and it is outrageous that she should be treated in this way. "It is not acceptable that a democratic country should be refused entry to a journalist because they find her work objectionable."
'Press freedom'
A Foreign and Commonwealth Office spokesman confirmed Ms Jasiewicz was in an Israeli detention centre. "We are giving her consular assistance which means ensuring she has legal representation and that she is being treated appropriately." He said that Mr Straw had not taken any action on her case. He added that issues of press freedom were taken up with various countries but at differing levels of seniority. A spokesman for the Israeli prime minister told BBC News Online the country had a right to determine who entered it. "A country has a legitimate right to question the intentions of an individual on entering a country. "The authorities will behave in accordance with the decision of the court," the spokesman added. Israel's concern about Ms Jasiewicz related to her links to the International Solidarity Movement, he told BBC News Online. It should be noted that the International Solidarity Movement enthusiastically endorses terrorism. Israel's trepidations with respect to Ewa Jasiewicz would seem to be rather well founded.
It was impossible to find any unbiased reporting concerning the circumstances surrounding Baha al-Bahesh's shooting. Below is reportage from a pro-Palestinian site regarding the incident.
The teenager [Baha al-Bahesh], who is from the northern part of Nablus, was a well-known volunteer with international and Palestinian organizations working in the Nablus region, and acted as an informal guide for international delegates.
Al-Bahesh was accompanying a four-person delegation of British, German and Polish representatives of GIPP (Grassroots International Protection for Palestinians) at noon yesterday to observe Israeli soldiers enforcing the curfew, as it had been reported to the delegation that shots were fired at a group of schoolchildren.
From the GIPP web page:
The repression of the second Intifada has become a fierce, one sided war lead by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people, accompanied with serious violations of international humanitarian rights: more than 1000 Palestinians have been killed and more than 20,000 have been injured. Moreover, hundreds of buildings and homes have been demolished, olive and fruit trees uprooted, agricultural lands bulldozed, and strict closures and curfews affect millions of Palestinians on a daily basis.
It's pretty obvious al-Bahesh was assisting organizations that seek to portray the Palestinians as victims instead of the bloodthirsty killers they actually are. Small wonder that the IDF punched his ticket. Groups like GIPP are responsible for fostering European sympathy and their continued funding of terrorism the Palestinian Authority.
#1
"It is not acceptable that a democratic country should be refused entry to a journalist because they find her work objectionable."
The democratic country was trying to enter the journalist? The NUJ evidently got so excited by this setback to terrorist sympathisers that they forgot how to string a sentence together.
A Swedish friend of mine recently sat in on a ISM meeting in that Moslem-besieged country. She said they are the most vomit-inducing organisation she's encountered in ages.
#2
Bryan, the NUJ actually got it somewhat right despite appearances. An entire country could enter Ms Jasiewicz (individually, in multiples or all at once) and I doubt it would overly concern me.
#3
I'll give a bucket full of warm spit once these anti-civilization types quit smearing my own country in the press in Europe and particulary in the U.K.
This woman's plight is nothing to me. Any nation has the right to control who enters it's borders. If she doesn't like it go via Egypt next time.
Quit smearing the US with lies and half truths you anarco-facist puke swillers.
From Debka:
Fighting flares on Najaf streets after radical Shiite cleric Sadr's militia confirmed still in control of Imam Ali Mosque Najef. Several hours of confusion sparked by Iraqi PM Allawi's unsupported claim that Iraqi police had entered mosque and arrested 400 Mehdi Army militiamen. Standoff between rebels and US-Iraqi forces remains unresolved after two weeks of fighting.
It would seem that things are a bit confusing from the front. After a night of pounding from AC 130s I imagine everyone is catching up on their sleep.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
08/20/2004 15:29 Comments ||
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#3
I wonder whether the Mahdi will crawl into little holes in the rubble to hide from Spooky. If the Mahdi do the duck & cover, will the pershmerga rush in the dead of night? Sometimes it sucks to be a jihadi.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 16:56 Comments ||
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#4
They grow prons in Idaho?
Who would a thunk.
can't get the link to work.
FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. warplanes attacked targets in Iraq's Sunni Muslim city of Falluja for a second time on Friday, witnesses said. They said the planes fired three rockets into the industrial zone of the city. There was no immediate word on casualties. A similar raid overnight killed five people and wounded six, hospital sources said.
Don't forget the kittens and baby ducks.
Falluja is a hotbed for anti-U.S. insurgents.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/20/2004 10:41:04 AM ||
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#1
The IslamoBaathist terrorists haven't carried out many suicide bomb attacks lately.
Is it possible that our cordon of Falluja has been tightened?
#3
I think it is also possible enough of the "insurgents" have been killed their ain't enough left to launch attacks that they have gone to turtle mode.
Friday, 20 August, 2004, 03:12 GMT 04:12 UK US warplanes and tanks have been bombarding areas around the Imam Ali shrine in the Iraqi city of Najaf. Radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr has continued to defy calls to end his insurgency, despite a "final call" from Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. Orange flashes lit up the night sky as US warplanes flew overhead and thick black smoke rose from the old city. A BBC correspondent says there is no word on casualties, but the mortars of Mr Sadr's men have fallen silent. The BBC's Kylie Morris in Najaf said the bombardment by US planes had been intense, leaving a smoky haze that stretched across the night horizon. The bombing went on for more than 30 minutes, and the explosions could be heard several kilometres away. ...more...
The BBC's version of events. Let's hope that actions against ALL Tater Tots - country-wide - continue until they are no more. Period.
Posted by: .com ||
08/20/2004 12:33:06 AM ||
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#1
The picture is worth a thousand words. But, I bet, the dome is still intact. That must be somewhere near the ashheap.
#2
Cordon Sanitaire around the Mosque - by firepower. They are knocking down the outer perimeter and peeling away all the buildings near the mosque wall.
Why? Because it forces the Al Sadr boys back to the mosque - and denies them any sort of cover if they decide to come out under a truce banner - no "melting away" this time - they go into the trucks as prinsoners, and are much more easily disarmed.
Plus, there is a heck of a lot of psychological power to such an assault being drummed home. Unleashing hell all around them, and sustaining it... it will wear them down.
The only thing missing is the local clerics (Sistani needs to talk to them) publicly condemning Sadr to completely cut their morale.
#3
Being shelled must be as an intense a situation that a combatant could endure. There is only so much dirt a guy could hug. Poor ingnorant buggers. Tater has alot of splaining to do to his band of bros at the raisin ration stall.
#5
Lucky, I agree. Poor little tots thought it was all going to be fun and so PC. Thought the Americans were a bunch of puppy dogs. Sooner or later the world will realize that US and good Iraqi citizens aren't playing games. This one is for keeps.
#6
Can anyone give me the details on what sort of heart surgery Sistani's undergoing or has undergone?
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
08/20/2004 1:03 Comments ||
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#7
Fuck that Mosque!! Fuck all who support this asshole!! Wipe the place clean!!
Load them on a truck?!?!?! Fuck that!! Kill them as they walk out!! They should be treated like the Russians treated the Germans as they took over Berlin! On your knee's bitch and in this case a USA .45 slug to the head!!! Enough of this bullshit and this so called sensitive war bullshit. One more of our guys die's because of this kind of warfare is going to have me thinking differently about our current leadership!!
#9
I don't understand. Why don't they drop an emp to black out any media at the shrine, denying them there propaganda footage, and then drop several hundred canisters of tear gas by air.
Then make trip after trip with armor through the surrounding area until the resistance drops to a managebale level?
#12
Look closely at this image (cropped from one of the GlobalSecurity satellite images) - this is a fortress... Now, re-think all those great generic solutions that have been offered - but customized to the reality you see here.
#16
I think 200 canisters of retch gas would be far more effective, and less damaging to physical structures. Of course, it'll take Sadr about ten years of scrubbing on his hands and knees to get the place clean again afterwards, but can you think of a more deserving punishment?
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/20/2004 1:55 Comments ||
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#17
From BBC:
"A US gunner trains his sights on Iraqi militiamen loyal to Moqtada Sadr in the al-Jadida al-Talat area, 200m south of the shrine of Imam Ali."
200M South puts him well inside the Old City... You can see this clearly in Map 9. The squeeze is definitely on.
#20
Phil---al Sistani had an angioplasty on his ticker to ream out a coronary artery.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 2:05 Comments ||
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#21
Old Spook---It was my fervent hope that other Shi'ite clerics would condemn al Sadr's behavior. I am disappointed that they would not. If they do not take a stand at condemning such criminal behavior by a so-called cleric, they will never get out of the hole that they are in, and they will forever condemn themselves to be martyrs, hagglers, but never real leaders who raise consciousness of their followers. */idealistic rant*
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 2:12 Comments ||
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#22
.com---looks like they bombed the long building with the line of columns, top center of pic beyond the wall of the mosque, about 1:00 position.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 2:14 Comments ||
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#23
AP - Hmmm. Bldg's not long enough - unless that's a bombed-out section to the right of it in the bldg pic. And the POV would be from the roof of the shrine's outer wall if you're right. So now we're talking cell-phone with camera inside. If that all adds up to true - we might gets some really hairy images off that phone by the time this winds up. I think the twinkie will be too busy to call anyone soon enough...
#24
There's another pic from the same sequence here.
And speaking of cell phones...
His aide, Haider al-Tourfi, said al-Sadr sent a text message rejecting conditions the Iraqi cabinet sought to place on his surrender. The message read, "Either martyrdom or victory." Source.
Posted by: Rafael ||
08/20/2004 2:32 Comments ||
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#25
yup - they're blowing away the outer walls with the AC130s. sweet!
Morning will dawn with the mosque surrounded by a 1400 acre gravel parking lot and a lot of pissed off US and Iraqi soldiers.
#26
I went to the BBC and took a look at their "Have Your Say" on this topic again. No one but the folks inside of Iraq and a few from the US seem to have the remotest clue. It's not Sadr's fault it's the US and U.K. needing to leave Najif/ Iraq right now and everthing will be ok. Folks I am not to really smart and I don't have a great education but I can see that this is exactly not going to solve Iraqs problems. I am totally smoked by the BBC editorial policy in respect to Iraq and the US. Enough to make me start looking for some good open source PHP based Blogging application for one of my Web sites.
I am so pissed at this point I am almost ready to say screw it smoke these bastards, the Imam Ali Mosque and a one square mile radius around it. I know thats not the smart way to fight but it might be a lesson for these Sadr/Majone milita and their fifth estate supporters.
#27
I am a staunch defender of the Beeb (sport without commercials, can't be bad) - but I have to admit that their news coverage of Iraq is beyond the pale - and not just Iraq, the war on terror, Blair's premiership etc.. You'd think the beeb was run by ragheads but it isn't - just rich liberals from public school and Oxbridge, in the main.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/20/2004 5:54 Comments ||
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#28
Longhair:
Don't forget--most of the Shi'a are friendlies. If we can get the job done without trashing a building they value, I'm all for that. If there is some damage to the building despite our best efforts, they'll blame the Tater Tots and not us.
Have a little faith. I think the people running this operation know what they're doing.
Posted by: Mike ||
08/20/2004 7:21 Comments ||
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#29
faith is not the problem, I just get sick of this "truce time" bullshit....."wait were getting our ass kicked quick call a truce!!" It has been happening way to much lately....
With peace efforts continuing, Najaf appeared far more quiet late Friday morning than it has in weeks. U.S. tanks were on the streets, but residents reported seeing some of al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia pulling out of the Old City.
The Imam Ali Shrine (search) compound, which had been filled with hundreds of chanting and bellicose gunmen in recent days, appeared far calmer Friday. Video of the compound and its outskirts, shown on the pan-Arab station Al-Jazeera, revealed far fewer people inside and no armed men. One sandbagged gun position outside the shrine was abandoned.
#33
Maybe their trick is to make believe that a part of the militia have left the town and the rest of them hide in the shrine.
Suppose it turns out that no millitia is inside the shrine when bombed, then no one especially the Shia wont believe the US anymore, exactly what Sadr would like to happen.
Posted by: Murat ||
08/20/2004 8:26 Comments ||
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#34
God, I love it when our guys are allowed to serve justice. No Tater left behind.
Posted by: Capt America ||
08/20/2004 8:52 Comments ||
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#35
would be really surprised if there isn't some combination of gas grenades or other delivery systems that couldn't get the Imam Ali Mosque cleared al-Sadr and Jihadists.
Bombs and bullets are fun, but there must be some way to gain complete control of the Mosque, really a fortress as .com noted, short of destroying it.
Let's get creative here, Gentlemen, as the Russians did the Moscow Theater.
#36
You'd think the beeb was run by ragheads but it isn't - just rich liberals from public school and Oxbridge, in the main.
Howard, they have been taught to be "contrarian" by Oxbridge and their tenure at BBC. They cannot afford to be seen as pro-anything except the most liberal social issues. They are scared to death of having any establishment partisanship eke out of their little corrupted minds and organization. I just left living in the UK for 6 years and the BBC version of partisanship for the oppressed and vexation to the oppressor even turns up in their Olympic coverage.
Posted by: Jack is Back ||
08/20/2004 9:15 Comments ||
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#37
The US forces will NOT use tear or other gas. Use of these gasses in combat is a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
However, use of these gasses by the duly constituted Iraqi authorities during a police action in their own country is quite legal and accepted.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/20/2004 9:23 Comments ||
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#39
Dear RKB:
Even non-lethal gases? It this is the case, I would imagine that this would give a perfect opening then to re-visit the 4th (?) Geneva Accords.
There are good and legitimate reasons to use gas in this situation...both to save life, (not much of a concern here on Rantburg...lol...but still important in the wider world), as well as protecting a historical monument.
Sometimes you have to stand up and take the hit...full in the face if it is the right thing to do. I understand your subtrafuge of saying the Iraqi's did it in a police action...it is subtle to be sure, but it may better to just take the hit on this one.
Kind of say, we're going to save lives and save the Mosque...and set a good example for the world.
#40
flash - sistani says he WILL accept the handover of the shrine. Looks like theres a deal. But not that bad a one. No get out of jail free pass for Sadr. Just an agreement not to storm the shrine, in return for Sadr leaving it. Expect the battle to shift elsewhere.
#41
Video of the compound and its outskirts, shown on the pan-Arab station Al-Jazeera, revealed far fewer people inside and no armed men. One sandbagged gun position outside the shrine was abandoned.
What the hell is going on?
Well, since al J. was kicked out for a month, this video was fed to them & isn't live. That suggests it was filmed -- and perhaps faked -- a propaganda attempt to position the Mahdi gangs as poor, lonely fighters bravely standing up to the US (& Allawi) bullies ....
#43
note this follows another 77 dead thugs overnight.
My sense is that the siege and the psychological impact of the AC130s got to them, and that Sadr was losing control of the thugs. If your forces are collapsing anyway, better to put the best face on it. Next question - will we get all thugs as they leave, or allow some to get away as part of the deal?
#45
Sometimes you have to stand up and take the hit...full in the face if it is the right thing to do. I understand your subtrafuge of saying the Iraqi's did it in a police action...it is subtle to be sure, but it may better to just take the hit on this one.
Traveller, I'll respectfully disagree on this. US forces do not carry tear and other non-lethal gases as a rule and we do not want that wall breached with regard to combat.
If they are used in Najaf it will not be by the US forces themselves and there will be no subterfuge ... they will be used by Iraqis or not at all.
#46
All moot now - looks the the bombardment had its effect: Tater is leaving - and the Madhi are running a gauntlet on the way out.
And like I said, it took a cleric to resolve this. ANd it was Sistanie - and if you know the history of this mosque, you'll know its about the money.
Thats why Tater has murdered almost all the Imams that are between him and Sistani in terms of "inheriting" the mosque. This little bastard is a mafia boss, nothing more and nothing less.
#47
OS - for this occasion, if the report is true.
But I fear this kind of situation will not be rare over the next decade or so, and the ambiguities and tradeoffs involved will frustrate many.
BTW, LHR, the US has not used a 45 calibre handgun for a while now.
And re: comments on another thread, electromagnetic pulse is not an answer in this sort of situation either, since EMPs are generated by small nuclear explosions close to the target. It's considered counterproductive to nuke your own troops and fry their equipment ... Heh.
Take a deep breath, folks. Our military has given a great deal of thought to how to deal with these situations. Most of the concerns are political and strategic rather than tactical.
And re: calls to take off the gloves, remember that there are several serious reasons our own military stands by the Conventions. First, they provide some protection to our own troops if captured or on the battlefield.
Equally important is the effect on our own army, it's standards and professionalism, of the tactics we use. Some things you don't do because they are, quite literally, bad for the soul. It's an issue the military leadership takes very seriously. Cadets at West Point discuss the Dresden firebombing of WWII in some depth for that reason.
#48
RKB - about the 45 - the US Military has not OFFICIALLY used it for quite some time. But a lot of Ops guys I know prefer that round and still use it as of the last time I was with such folks.
I used to get in big arguments over the .45 vs the .40S&W - but for a FMJ round, the 45 is better, with hollowpoints, the .40S&W is my choice [Silvertip with more powder behind them]. Of course the hollowpoints are against the Geneva convention for use in warfare, or so they say.
But like I said in my post at the top: the overnight strikes were to physically isolate the Madhi Army and secondarily to demoralize all those inside the Mosque. Nothing wakes you up like an AC130 working out nearby - and from what I heard, there were more than one up at the same time.
This was a good resolution - it showed Sadr for what he is, propped Sistani back up, and showed that the Iraqis were ready to do it themselves - and that the Iraqi government does control the use of US forces (at least until we get something where we disagree). It also marks Allawi as a "strong man" who "wants peace" - and is willing to fight for it.
The shame of all this is that the Iraqi Congress being formed was overshadowed by all the action in Najaf.
#49
rkb: Cadets at West Point discuss the Dresden firebombing of WWII in some depth for that reason.
Bad for the soul, but good for obtaining the unconditional submission of the Germanies after the surrender, perhaps? Sometimes, the enemies' fear of complete annihilation is the only thing that will secure their submission. Interviews with survivors will typically elicit defiant words, but the reality is in their actions, not their words. There were no significant acts of resistance in Germany because their cities had been flattened, and 2 million civilians killed, in addition to 8 million of their troops.
#50
#21 It was my fervent hope that other Shi'ite clerics would condemn al Sadr's behavior. I am disappointed that they would not. If they do not take a stand at condemning such criminal behavior by a so-called cleric, they will never get out of the hole that they are in, and they will forever condemn themselves to be martyrs, hagglers, but never real leaders who raise consciousness of their followers.
Alaska Paul, I know your words were meant in a hopeful tone, but these are among the exact reasons why America has had to remain in Iraq. The usual thundering silence when it comes to any condemnation of Sadr by his fellow thugs clergymen shows that Iraq is still susceptible to imposition of theocratic rule. Obviously, that is what must be avoided at all costs.
#46This little bastard is a mafia boss, nothing more and nothing less.
From all external appearances, it seems that this is the only role Sadr has ever played. Since the outset, my own view is that all of this mayhem was strictly about political power and had nothing to do with religion. Sadr's desecration of the Imama Ali shrine stands as proof positive of this. I'm still waiting for his capture as evidence of a successful operation, although dislodging him from the mosque was a significant PR victory.
#47And re: comments on another thread, electromagnetic pulse is not an answer in this sort of situation either, since EMPs are generated by small nuclear explosions close to the target. It's considered counterproductive to nuke your own troops and fry their equipment ... Heh.
This is not at all the case. Ongoing R&D is working on an E-Bomb. This electromagnetic pulse generating ordnance has all of the damaging effects of a nuclear detonation without the blast radius. It's intensity is controllable and just as damaging. Simple Faraday cages can protect our own electronics during its deployment.
#51
Sure, Zen, and we'll just whip up a bunch of them on the spot. hey you guys over there, stop shooting and help me weld these things, okay?
Pfeh.
Sorry for my attitude today, but I get annoyed with backseat tacticians ..... and yes, I do know about R&D efforts and no, they are not deployed and to my knowledge that one is not yet deployable. But if it were, our own equipment is not yet hardened against the effects of an E-bomb.
#52
Gather up all the Camel Spiders you can find, hundreds of the bastards, and start dumping them through windows or whatever, into the mosque/shrine. That'd get ME to leave...
#53
this is a classic rantburg thread! Gotta love the internet.
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 14:00 Comments ||
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#54
I always enjoy watching the news after a huge event like this. The CNNBBCETC news casters haven't been given their talking points on how to spin it as a loss for the Mericans and Joos - so you actually get some interesting commentary until the newsrooms can decide on a game plan.
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 14:03 Comments ||
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#55
I do know about R&D efforts and no, they are not deployed and to my knowledge that one is not yet deployable.
You may wish to revise your stand regarding this, rkb.
U.S. forces may use a new "e-bomb" during the invasion of Iraq as part of a 21st century blitzkrieg designed to render Saddam Hussein's forces blind, deaf, and incapable of retaliation. The highly classified bomb creates a brief pulse of microwaves powerful enough to fry computers, blind radar, silence radios, trigger crippling power outages and disable the electronic ignitions in vehicles and aircraft.
#56
Yes, yes, I read that article from a while back too. But USAToday carefully avoids noting that the USAF labratory prototypes which create a microwave pulse require a large energy source.
And despite the suggestion that there are battlefield-ready systems (truck mounted, I would presume), there are a couple of problems with the idea that they would be used in/around Najaf.
First, the value of these is to fry command and control systems dependent on electronics. Not exactly the core technology of Sadr's militia.
Second, this is a capability that is intended for major systems like missile launch electronics and C3 (command/control/communications) systems.
Third, microwave pulses can be dangerous to humans in their way, depending on the distance. And we have troops all around that complex.
And again, just exactly who is it in Najaf that is most dependent on electronic systems which have not yet been hardened against microwave attacks? Yeah, that's right - we are.
So, IF we had a prototype ready to try out on the battlefield and IF we had it in Iraq and IF it was reliable and we knew its operational characteristics well and IFthere were trained operators and we had clear doctrine and tactical guidelines for how to use it,
then it STILL would not be the weapon of choice around the shrine.
There's a lot more to deploying a weapon system than aiming and firing it.
#57
rkb, your whining about "backseat tacticians" is also pretty funny. I was probably the first person at Rantburg who suggested using sleep gas to end the shrine's occupation. Without debating pertinent disagreements to this strategy, I was nonetheless joined by OldSpook, Fred and several others who agreed with such a move.
As to the e-bomb and it's lack of use in Iraq. I can only assume that military planners properly anticipated how we would quickly prevail without resorting to methods that could have severely crippled the subsequent recovery of Iraq's government. Another equally possible reason is that measures were probably not in place to protect all of our own gear from a massive EMP.
E-bomb technology has been around for several decades. My oldest brother described an early design for one to me back in the 1960s.
#58
No doubt Fred, Old Spook and others would like to see the use of sleeping or other gases in situations like the shrine.
That doesn't change the fact that the US Military believes, and teaches its officers, that to do so is against international agreements we've entered into.
And yes, yes ... all sorts of technology has been around for ages. I built or led the building of some of it.
Doesn't mean it's a reliable system for battlefield deployment or the right tool for this situation.
It's going to be a long decade. And a frustrating one.
It would help if the people who understand the need to fight a global war against Islamacist and other terror groups stay realistic with regard to their expectations and their assumptions.
Look: I teach cadets at West Point. I know what goes into defining doctrine, developing and testing weapons systems (I worked in the defense industry for a good part of my career), training units to use them correctly and then integrating it all into appropriate operations.
Is there a time and place to try out prototypes? Sure - it was done with UAVs last decade and is being done aggressively as we blog here. That said, this isn't a video game where there are all sorts of futuristic things to whip out and they always work well and you get 22,000 gold pieces for only 3 body damage points lost ....
#60
This is not at all the case. Ongoing R&D is working on an E-Bomb. This electromagnetic pulse generating ordnance has all of the damaging effects of a nuclear detonation without the blast radius. It's intensity is controllable and just as damaging. Simple Faraday cages can protect our own electronics during its deployment.
rkb, I will also ask you to please take note of the fact that nowhere in my post did I advocate using an e-bomb in the current situation. The sole intent of my mentioning them was to clarify how a servicable EMP can be generated without resorting to nuclear weapons.
As to the use of sleep gas. If you examine my previous post, I specifically mention "pertinent disagreements" to its use. I recognize that there are a lot of merits to arguments against using gas warfare, even in such a benign form. It is for that exact reason that I have not belittled detractors of my suggestion in any way.
As an aside, I detest video games and can count the quarters I've dropped into them on one hand. I think 99% of video games rot the brain and refuse to have a game box in my home.
When I start mentioning West Point pompously, it's time to deflate me a bit and send me outside for some fresh air LOL. I'll impose the penalty so y'all don't have to.
And, I confess it's been a while since I was directly involved with Directed Energy Weapons programs.
Just don't rag on our troops for not using tear gas or sleeping gas or Super Ray Guns or ninja invisibility or .... whatever .... okay? Even if Sadr is a seriously annoying twerp doing major damage right now. Sigh.
(Editor: put that keyboard down now and back away from the PC slowly .... Me: I'll defend my keyboard to the last drop of blood - no wait, that's the other guy's line ...)
#63
rkb, allow me to be the first to express some appreciation for the civil and well-informed input that you have provided in this thread. It is specifically this sort of exchange that keeps me here at Rantburg. Your counter arguments are well founded and absolutely merit consideration. I too have worked with advanced technology, like laser gyros, SDS laser optics and stealth technology and take immense pride in having made contributions to those efforts. Please do not think that I would criticize those with their boots on the ground over in Iraq. My only concern is for the expeditious prosecution of the entire campaign so our worthy soldiers can come home at the soonest possible moment.
#64
AP - It was just confirmed on Fox that the bldg being whacked (photo above) was, indeed the building you pointed out from the satellite photo. Just thought you'd like to know! Good call!
#65
Thanks, Zen. Sorry, all, for being so pissy today. I figured out what was really bugging me and did something about it ... insofar as I could. I think I'm okay to come back to RB without being a hot air bag now LOL.
#66
.com---thanks for the confirmation. My photo interpretation skills weren't too rusty after a couple of decades of gathering rust, heh heh. It was the long roofline and the arches and columns that I saw. Too bad Tater was not in there. Now we are going to have to put up with more bazaar (bizarre) haggling, Iraqi style, in dealing with Tater.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 19:42 Comments ||
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#69
RKB - the "sleeping gas" must be used by police forces though - the US military (outside of certain units) is not equipped - and the Geneva Convention does ban this sort of chemical agent. Using the Iraqi SF would be the way to go, since its an *internal* matter, and not subject to the GC.
As for the non-nuclear EMP, look up HERF. It allows you to direct High Energy RF and do the disabling.
#71
I find the idea that warfare can be subject to rules in a rule-book to be a somewhat curious idea. That one tries to be as civil for as long as one possibly can, seems understandable.....however, true war implies that one is fighting for survival. Thus ultimately, any means will be considered acceptable to win.
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 22:00 Comments ||
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#72
B, by "true war" I assume that you are referring to total war. I must heartily disagree with you. There are some means which will never be acceptable. Nazi Germany forever stands as a sordid example of those who think that ends can justify any means. There are limits beyond which one merges with even the worst of foes.
#73
Thanks for the HERF link. As I said, my familiarity (such as it was) with Directed Energy Weapons were for bigger systems, and a little awareness of some work in lasers going on now. My own technical expertise is in another area.
Lots to keep up on!
BTW, am I the only one worried about having HERF components available retail? Think about who would be hurt by their widespread availability and ease of use .....
Son of Chinioti follows father
According to Nawa-e-Waqt late Maulana Manzur Chinioti's son Ilyas Chinioti has put on his turban after his death and vowed to continue the laudable work of apostatisation of his father. Upon becoming leader he called the caliph of the Ahmedi community Mirza Masroor to a mubahila, a supernatural verbal combat in which the false speaker falls down dead.
'I am not Qadiani!'
According to Khabrain prime minister in waiting Shaukat Aziz said that he was not a Qadiani and all the rumours spread about his being one were false and malicious. He pronounced Al Hamdul Lillah and said that he was a Sunni Muslim and the clerics who instructed him in Islam were still alive and could vouch for his not being a Qadiani. Sarerahe in Nawa-e-Waqt stated that Mr Aziz's mother was in the habit of holding religious gatherings every month on the occasion of Giyarwin Sharif where great Sunni scholars came and lectured. She said her prayers five times a day.
Girls will turn terrorists
According to Jang captured Lashkar-e-Jhangvi terrorist Gul Hassan said that in the near future Al Qaeda girls would throw bombs and create havoc in Pakistan. He said that women's functions would be targeted by girls wearing school uniforms. He also said that women in the Shia schools would be targeted by women terrorists.
Mufti Shamzai's killer identified
According to Insaf, Karachi police chief Tariq Jameel revealed that on the basis of photographic records the constable who was eye-witness to the murder of Mufti Shamzai had been identified. One killer was Muhtasham who belonged to a banned jihadi organisation and was wanted for earlier sectarian murders.
Faisalabad terrorist paradise?
According to Insaf, 16 foreign religious students were rounded up in Faisalabad because they were staying in the city without a valid visa. They were from Nepal, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Uganda, Sudan, Nigeria and Tanzania. Their accounts were seized and their foreign teachers were also hauled up. They had initially come to Lahore for the grand congregation of Tablighi Jamaat for which the government runs special trains but after the gathering was over they moved to Faisalabad which are the headquarters of the Ahle Hadith (Wahhabi) Party.
Manzur Wattoo and Manzur Chinioti
According to daily Pakistan, when Maulana Manzur Chinioti became a member of Punjab's assembly, Manzur Wattoo was to be elected as house speaker. He wanted Chinioti's vote but Chinioti insisted that he first denounce his Qadiani religion. In order to get his vote Wattoo denounced the religion of his father and also later refrained from saying the funeral prayer of his father.
Shaukat Aziz and the mullahs
Columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that finance minister Shaukat Aziz was in the cross hairs of the mullahs and was making the mistake of responding to their challenges, as if he was not a candidate for premiership but for the imamat of a mosque. He had already announced his sect although the Constitution did not demand that. Next he could be revealing whether he was Barelvi or Deobandi or Ahle Hadith. Under pressure the future premier might even promise the rule of the Taliban in Pakistan. He was entering a dark tunnel with the mullahs. Once inside he would find it eternally black.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/20/2004 12:08:50 AM ||
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Link ||
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#1
alternate title for "Nuggets from Urdu Press":
"Evidence for the prosecution"
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/20/2004 0:18 Comments ||
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#2
Or the Twilight Zone.
What a bizare mind thought. We need to sit down and have a big discussion with the folks that pray to the property known as holy islamic.
#3
I read this and started to read through Pravda for another "Nuggets from The Urdu Press Pravda" post... but it appears my tolerance for such things has dropped.
If I were up to it, I could put together something from there that would make this week's NFTUP look tame. But I'm not, I'm tired, and I have a lot to do.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
08/20/2004 0:58 Comments ||
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#4
I wonder if, instead of a debate, Kerry challenges Bush to a mubahila. Maybe not, just a thought.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 1:58 Comments ||
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#5
[G]irls would throw bombs and create havoc in Japan Pakistan ... [and] womenâs functions would be targeted by virginsgirls wearing school uniforms.
In the name of the moon-god Allan, I must punish you!
#6
Actually I prefer Kogome (actually Faye from Cowboy Beebop is more my type but she doesn't have a schoo; girl uniform or shape.) Those girly girls in the hajib are no match for Japaneese school uniforms.
#7
Actually, I set the standard for tough anime schoolgirls back in '86. That beats Sailor Moon by half a decade. Okay, I'm going away now before I get banned by Fred.
1. Procreation
2. Cleaning behind the fridge
3. Martyrdom
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/20/2004 4:27 Comments ||
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#9
Where do I find the rules for a mubahila? It sounds like a perfect opportunity for pay-per-view. I can pitch it to the execs as the ultimate reality show. Anna Nicole Smith for the ring announcer. We get Ashlee Simpson and Richard Hatch for colour commentary.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
08/20/2004 13:17 Comments ||
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#16
My collection was backing up - needed airing so I can archive it, heh. My normal procedure is to post and keep them around for a few weeks, then yank 'em and burn 'em. BTW, note the file names - some are decent punnery, lol!
#17
Dammit, now I've gone and busted my right mouse button. Thanks, dot-com.
Posted by: Another Dan ||
08/20/2004 14:47 Comments ||
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#18
.com I mean this in a nice, sensitive way, but do you remember when we were talking about model railroading last week? :) Of course JPGs are one hell of a lot easier to move.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr has continued to defy calls to end his insurgency, despite a "final call" from Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. Orange flashes lit up the night sky as US warplanes flew overhead and thick black smoke rose from the old city. A BBC correspondent says there is no word on casualties, but the mortars of Mr Sadr's men have fallen silent. The BBC's Kylie Morris in Najaf said the bombardment by US planes had been intense, leaving a smoky haze that stretched across the night horizon. The bombing went on for more than 30 minutes, and the explosions could be heard several kilometres away.
