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Fatah Threatens to Murder Hamas Leaders
Today's Headlines
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Page 1: WoT Operations
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Page 5: Russia-Former Soviet Union
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Afghanistan
NATO takes over eastern Afghanistan
Posted by: ed || 10/05/2006 09:55 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It dont matter who you put in charge the problem will continue as long as Pakland turns a blind eye!!!!

http://www.pakistan-facts.com/
Posted by: Cheregum Crelet7867 || 10/05/2006 10:10 Comments || Top||

#2  Pakistan is not turning a blind eye. They are directing it.
Posted by: ed || 10/05/2006 10:17 Comments || Top||

#3  French command?

Christ, the frogs can't even control their own capitol.
Posted by: mojo || 10/05/2006 13:37 Comments || Top||

#4  As an aside, please note that by freeing the Americans up from eastern Afghanistan, they are now fully available to deal with, um, situations, that develop over in western Afghanistan.

That is, bordering on that other country.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 10/05/2006 13:59 Comments || Top||

#5  Nice A-10 workie, [filter the Beeb bs]
Posted by: RD stringer for al-Reuters || 10/05/2006 14:04 Comments || Top||


Gurkha spirit triumphs in siege of Nawzad
Brass.The Gurkhas were never supposed to fire a shot in anger in Helmand. Their main duty was to protect the main British Army base at Camp Bastion. But as British forces found themselves fighting a full-scale war, the Gurkhas were thrust into the front line and became involved in some of the fiercest fire fights of the summer-long campaign.

One of the most dramatic engagements took place in the town of Nawzad, a key strategic post in southern Helmand. The Gurkha commanders realised that trouble was brewing when the town centre emptied of civilians.

As night fell they heard the sounds of holes being chipped through the walls of the buildings close to their fortified ''platoon house", the town's police station. Then the sound of civilian electricity generators in the town abruptly ceased, so that in the silence approaching British helicopters could be heard sooner. "We knew it was the calm before the storm. We sensed what was coming," said Major Dan Rex, 35, the Gurkhas' tall, softly spoken commander.

During the next 10 days, the 40 Gurkhas sent to Nawzad to hold the police station fought tenaciously to defend themselves as they were subjected to 28 attacks lasting one to six hours each, including five full scale efforts by hundreds of Taliban fighters to over-run their compound.

Senior British officers say it was one of a series of gruelling attritional sieges that have characterised the bloody first six months of the British deployment to Helmand. They paid tribute to the courage displayed by the 110- man mixed force from the 1st and 2nd Gurkha Rifles, particularly those who fought so valiantly to defend the Nawzad police station.

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 09:05 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  OT : btw, if anyone wishes to purchase a nepalese kukri, khukuri, kukuri, whatever you spell it, check this website, or its sister website; S&H to the USA would be about $35; there's also this ebay seller, or this well-known importer.

Nope, I'm not getting any money out of this shameless plug, but these are nice short swords.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 9:14 Comments || Top||

#2  DO THEY GET ANY MORE BADASS THAN THE GURKHAS?
Posted by: BK || 10/05/2006 9:23 Comments || Top||

#3  Let the Gurkha's practice one of their old traditions. Sneak over to a Talibunnie position at night and lop off a few heads with their kukris.
Posted by: Steve || 10/05/2006 9:27 Comments || Top||

#4  I've already got one, A5089. They DO make a nice short sword and they work well for a lot of things. Bought one after I read John Masters' Bugles and a Tiger
Posted by: mac || 10/05/2006 10:16 Comments || Top||

#5  I've got three, one shiny new I bought last year, and a couple quite used ones (one traditional I broke the tip throwing it, one military issue I used back in the olden days to chop wood instead of an hatchet) which were given to me by my ex-uncle in law, who had been a gurkha in a former life (he enlisted at 14-15, not sure about his own age, fought one indo-pakistanese war, the 1971 one I'd think, and supposedly killed 12 ennemies, "7 with his rifle, and 5 wuith his knfe", or the other way around, can't remember); btw, he really disliked muslims (worked in the UAE, got threatened by Youths to have his throat slitted if he ate pork right after he got out of plane), and told me beheading them prevented them to enter paradise.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 10:38 Comments || Top||

#6  The whole damn village is conspirng. Make an example. Execute all of them.
Posted by: SpecOp35 || 10/05/2006 10:43 Comments || Top||

#7  Amaing what happens when the Lions of Islam try to fight real men instead women and children.
Posted by: RWV || 10/05/2006 11:16 Comments || Top||

#8  AYO GURKHALI!
Posted by: mojo || 10/05/2006 11:26 Comments || Top||

#9  "beheading them prevented them to enter paradise."

Anonymous5089,
I think you found a solution to our problem.

Al
Posted by: Frozen Al || 10/05/2006 11:34 Comments || Top||

#10  Aye, it's Kukri time for the Talibunnies. Go get em.....
Posted by: Howard UK || 10/05/2006 11:45 Comments || Top||

#11  Mac. Read Bugles and a Tiger years ago, and several times since.
I highly recommend it. I believe it's available from Amazon, where it is reviewed by, among others, me.
Good view of the old Brit regimental system, fighting on the Northwest Frontier (same names as now), Sandhurst, and a long praise of Gurkhas.
Well written. After Masters retired, he became a writer. "Bhowani Junction", probably his most well-known book, was a movie with, among others, Ava Gardner.

"Bugles... is a terrific book.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey || 10/05/2006 12:04 Comments || Top||

#12  I've always had real admiration for Gurkhas. As a child I lived in a little village in India that didn't have police, per se, but had 1 (one) Gurkha night watchman. Non-domestic and property crime was virtually unheard of. I always felt safe hearing his boots crunching through the gravel paths as he made his rounds. To this day that sound gives me a feeling of security.

/nostalgic reverie
Posted by: xbalanke || 10/05/2006 12:17 Comments || Top||

#13  The Argies filed a complaint with the UN about the use of the Gurkhas in the Falklands.

These guys should be out patrolling. It's their type of territory.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 10/05/2006 12:17 Comments || Top||

#14  xbalanka: Thanks for sharing! If you've not done so already, I would encourage you to write! The story of the Gurkhas is indeed an amazing one. Should be required reading for all ranks.
Posted by: Besoeker || 10/05/2006 12:20 Comments || Top||

#15  It must have taken a great deal of discipline to keep those Gurkhas inside the compound instead of going out and just *butchering* their enemies.

That can be problematic with Gurkhas, and all. Not much for taking prisoners unless explicitly ordered to do so.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 10/05/2006 14:07 Comments || Top||

#16  "An American aircraft dropped a 2,000lb bomb on the spot and that ended the mortar fire."

Logicians recognize this as "cause and effect".
Posted by: Spotch Cromp1374 || 10/05/2006 14:59 Comments || Top||

#17  I'm puzzled why the USAF didn't level the entire town of Nawzad around the platoon house. 28 attacks over 10 days? Why did they hold back?
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 10/05/2006 15:58 Comments || Top||

#18  "a bullet went through the gunsight and hit him in the face. "His commander called for him to be medi-vacced out, but he refused to come down from the roof," said Major Rex. "Later he was again hit, this time in the helmet. He sat down and had a cigarette, then went back to his position."

DAMN! Nos THAT is a helluva soldier no matter the stripe.
Posted by: Oldspook || 10/05/2006 18:36 Comments || Top||

#19  I'm sure he'll be condemned by the anti-smoking nannies, who aren't fit to wash his feet


and no, I don't smoke cigarettes
Posted by: Frank G || 10/05/2006 19:12 Comments || Top||

#20  Professionals vs. armed idiots.
Posted by: Darrell || 10/05/2006 19:39 Comments || Top||


Splodydopes brainwashed in Pakistan, says Afghan spy agency
KABUL - Would-be suicide bombers detained in Afghanistan claim they have been brainwashed and equipped by Arab, Chechen and Uzbek militants in Pakistan, the Afghan intelligence service said Wednesday.

The claims were from 17 attackers who were arrested in the past month before they had the chance to strike, Sayed Ansari, the spokesman for the Afghan National Directorate of Security told reporters. “All of the detained have confessed they received training for suicide attacks, attacks against schools and institutions from Arab, Chechen and Uzbek instructors on the other side of the border (Pakistan),” said Ansari.

He said illiterate people, those with a poor religious education or from deprived backgrounds were being “brainwashed” in Pakistani training camps across the border and sent to Afghanistan. “They focus on religious feelings of people, show them made-up videos of coalition forces in Afghanistan, preach that Islam is in danger in Afghanistan and the government does not have control to make them ready for their inauspicious attempts,” he said.
That seems to be the standard M.O., doesn't it, whether you're in Peshawar, Bali or Gaza City.
Suicide attacks in Afghanistan have soared this year. Ansari said there had been 72 suicide attacks in Afghanistan this year killing 101 civilians, who made up 80 percent of casualties.
Posted by: Steve White || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Happening everywhere. Finsbury, Virginia, Needles, Toronto, Tours, Hamburg, everywhere. It's a moskkk thingy, therefore it's a money thingy, therefore it's a MM or Wahabbi thingy.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:26 Comments || Top||

#2  Splodydopes brainwashed in Pakistan, says Afghan spy agency

filter as need. FRONTLINE: Perv, Pashtun PakLand, the Tribal Wazirs, Talibs
Posted by: RD || 10/05/2006 1:21 Comments || Top||

#3  One man's brainwashing is another's religious awakening.
Posted by: Baba Tutu || 10/05/2006 2:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Even when most of the 'religious awakenings' seem to be initiated through watching snuff movies and getting hard-ons by playing 'gun sex' and stuff? I guess that's this Old-Tyme Religion thing I've been hearing of.

A mind, even a washed mind is, after all, a terrible thing...
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 10/05/2006 2:45 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan Arrests 17 Would-Be Bombers
Security agents have arrested 17 people allegedly trained in Pakistan who they believe planned to launch suicide attacks in three Afghan provinces, Afghanistan's intelligence agency said on Wednesday. The 17 were detained in Nangarhar, Kunduz and Kabul provinces and told authorities they attended militant training camps in neighboring Pakistan, said Said Ansari, spokesman for Afghanistan's intelligence agency. It was unclear when they were detained.

“The would-be bombers trained in Shamshatoo, an Afghan refugee camp near Peshawar, and at another camp near Data Khel in North Waziristan...”
Ansari said that militants in Pakistan encourage fighters to carry out suicide attacks by telling them that girls in Afghanistan are wearing un-Islamic clothes or studying subjects in school unrelated to Islam. The would-be bombers trained in Shamshatoo, an Afghan refugee camp near Peshawar, and at another camp near Data Khel in Pakistan's semiautonomous North Waziristan tribal region, Ansari said. "They are telling those people that they should conduct suicide attacks because the foreigners who are here are doing bad things in Afghanistan that are unacceptable in an Islamic country," Ansari told a news conference.

“If there is any such evidence, this should be shared with us officially through the fastest channels so that we can verify it and take appropriate action," said Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan...
Few details were provided on the 17 detainees. One was an Afghan, said Ansari, who did not reveal the nationalities of the others. Pakistan's top military spokesman said Pakistan had no information on the 17 arrests and urged Afghan officials to convey its information to Pakistani authorities. "If there is any such evidence, this should be shared with us officially through the fastest channels so that we can verify it and take appropriate action," Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan told The Associated Press. "Sharing of such information with the media is absolutely unwise and illogical."
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Training camps in Pakistan Never says Perv!!!!

Yes says the rest of the world!!!!!

Time for Bush to decide what side Perv is on and act accordingly!!!
Posted by: Cheregum Crelet7867 || 10/05/2006 4:50 Comments || Top||

#2  Another great day on Rantburg with the news our our Pravda MSM will not carry. Pitty but at least we are in the clear. Thanks.
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/05/2006 5:54 Comments || Top||

#3  I still want to know how they train suicide bombers. Training usually involves practice, practice and more practice. Does a class start out with 68 students to get "17 would-be bombers"?
Posted by: Art || 10/05/2006 10:36 Comments || Top||


Africa Horn
Islamicist Militia Advances Closer to Somalia Base
MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) - The Islamic militia that has seized much of southern Somalia has advanced to within 12 miles of the only town still controlled by the country's weak U.N.-backed government, an Islamic official said Wednesday.

The militia reached Moode Moode on Tuesday night, said local militia leader Mohammed Ibrahim Bilal. The group has started 24-hour patrols in the area, he said. "Our aim was to help the local residents in their fighting of bandits and to lift blockages from the road linking Baidoa to Mogadishu," Bilal told The Associated Press.

Abdirahman Dinari, a spokesman for the transitional government, described the militia's advance as "a provocative action."
Sure is, but you can't do anything about it, can you.
Posted by: Steve White || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Guess you will get 97% comversion rates there now also. Oh well, with Africa disintigrating, one less continent to concentrate on.
Posted by: newc || 10/05/2006 4:18 Comments || Top||

#2  Islamic courts have massed all the former militia gunnies that switched sides with their forces and are moving on Baidoa. That's where the U.N.- backed government is being guarded by the Ethiopian army. This could be fun.
Posted by: Steve || 10/05/2006 8:12 Comments || Top||

#3  Air drop them more ammo and grenades, they're running a bit short.
Posted by: Besoeker || 10/05/2006 8:13 Comments || Top||

#4  Oh, well. Once they have a 100% Islamic conversion rate, there's no need to worry about "innocent" casualties. You can simply wipe the area clean.
Posted by: Jackal || 10/05/2006 10:54 Comments || Top||

#5  Once they've swallowed the transitional gvt ruled area, will they settle with that, or attack and try to conquer the other independent parts of somalia, like puntland, in true muslim imperialism fashion?
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 10:59 Comments || Top||

#6  a5089, Shieldwolf has assured us that Somaliland and Puntland are beyond the Islamicists' ability to conquer, both in terms aof training and equipment. It would be good practice for the S. and M. troops were they to try, I imagine, and salutory for the surviving Islamicists.

And no snickers, snorts or guffaws from those of you who think I'm a complete innocent on certain subjects. You may smile quietly behind your hand, however.
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 12:10 Comments || Top||

#7  The Islamists have the numbers but the Ethiopians have the equipment and training. Also, Puntland and Somaliland have been seeing a lot of foreigner military trainers lately, and a lot of cargo aircraft landing at old military air fields. Interestingly, several reports indicate that the white military trainers speak with an Israeli accent.
Also, the last time that the Ethiopian Army went to war with Somalia, Ethiopia won. And that was when Somalia was a true state and had Soviet backing.
One more point : human wave attacks against an enemy with just today's standard infantry weapons is near suicidal; add in air support like the Ethiopians have, and all that a human wave attack accomplishes is killing off the attackers. So the "great numbers of religious fanatics" become the great numbers of the mangled dead bulldozed into mass graves.
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 10/05/2006 15:56 Comments || Top||

#8  One last point : all the "armour" that the Islamists have is a bunch of pickup, 2.5 ton, and 5 ton trucks with bolt-on/welded-on boilerplate "armour". Good enough to stop an AK round or light shrapnel, but not good enough to count as real light armour. The Ethiopian Air Force has Mi-24 Hinds and has experience using them. Also, several foreign news sources have pointed out that the Ethiopians have been paying East Europeans to bring their aircraft up to par and retrain their pilots. One hit from a 57mm or 80mm rocket from a Hind, and the Islamist's "battlewagon" becomes a plated coffin.
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 10/05/2006 16:51 Comments || Top||

#9  Interestingly, several reports indicate that the white military trainers speak with an Israeli accent.

Been that way in that region off and on for oh, 35+ years?
Posted by: Pappy || 10/05/2006 20:34 Comments || Top||


Islamists seize capital of middle Juba province
(SomaliNet) Forces loyal to Islamic courts have taken control of Bu'ale city, the provincial capital of middle Juba region on Tuesday in an attempt to prevent what they called "the enemy of Islam" head of information department of Islamic Courts told the local media. Sheik Ali Mudey confirmed the report saying the Islamic fighters reached the city of Bu'ale early this morning where they have received a warm welcome from the residents who felt the neat work by the Islamists in Somalia. He said the forces faced no resistance from their advance to the middle Juba province. Hundreds of heavily armed Islamic militants with battlewagons have arrived in the city, witnesses say.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  And it spreads and spreads.
Posted by: newc || 10/05/2006 4:15 Comments || Top||

#2  they have received a warm welcome from the residents ... Hundreds of heavily armed Islamic militants with battlewagons have arrived in the city

Peace through superior firepower.
Posted by: Bobby || 10/05/2006 6:40 Comments || Top||

#3  Take out pakland, stomp Iran, crush Saudi Arabia, and then concentrate on the bad boys in Africa - Somalia and Sudan. By then we should have made our own muzzies so enraged they'll do stupid things, and we can get rid of them, too. I'm beginning to believe, as much as I was hoping not to, that the only way to have a peaceful world is to have a muzzie-free world.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 10/05/2006 15:33 Comments || Top||


Africa Subsaharan
Nigerian rebels say 17 troops killed in oil delta
Militants said they killed 17 soldiers in two separate gun battles in Nigeria's oil heartland on Wednesday and threatened imminent attacks on strategic oil facilities.

The killings extend to four days a surge in violence between troops and rebels in the world's eighth largest oil exporter and follow the kidnapping of seven foreign workers from a U.S. company compound on Tuesday
details at the link
Posted by: lotp || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Arabia
Saudi Arabia starts militant trials
RIYADH - Saudi Arabia, fighting a violent campaign by Al Qaeda supporters, has quietly begun trying suspected militants in Islamic courts, a government official said in comments aired on Thursday. The comments suggest Saudi Arabia, which rules by strict Islamic law, has shelved the idea of setting up special tribunals along the lines of state security courts used in other Arab countries and raised fears among rights activists over legal procedures.

“There are Islamic Sharia courts that specialise in these issues. The trials are continuing and ongoing. There are many who have been sentenced and are finished with,” Deputy Interior Minister Prince Ahmed bin Abdul-Aziz told reporters in a clip shown on state-run al-Ikhbariya television. He gave no more details and it was not clear if “finished with” meant some had been executed.
We only hope so. I should have realized that any executions, if real, would be done in secret.

Officials said in August that detainees believed to have clear links to militant attacks against the Royal Family were being prepared for trial. Saudi Arabia’s justice system has religious scholars sitting as judges ruling on the basis of Islamic Sharia law.

Radicals inspired by Al Qaeda began a campaign to bring down the US-allied royal family with suicide bombings in May 2003 against Western housing compounds in Riyadh. Officials say more than 136 militants and 150 foreigners and Saudis, including security forces, have died since then, but the violence has ebbed in the face of toughened security measures against what official rhetoric calls “the deviant group”.

Rights activist Ibrahim Al Mugaiteeb said the lack of information about the trials was worrying. ”Through all this period that they are being questioned we don’t know anything about them,” he said, adding his Human Rights First Society estimates there are 1,500 detainees. Authorities have said that over 700 suspects have been released through a special programme to “correct” militant thinking, but public information remains hazy.

”The rules of the Sharia courts should be published and the trials should be public. The fact remains there is no transparency,” Mugaiteeb said, adding that legal representation was probably non-existent and at the discretion of judges.

Saudi Arabia has offered an amnesty to militants which few have taken up. Analysts say sympathy for them among the population of 17 million Saudis is considerable. ”God will judge them harshly,” the deputy minister said. ”There is no justification at all for attacking peaceful civilians. We are an Islamic country and it is totally unacceptable that their slogan should be Islam.”
"They should go elsewhere and attack infidels"

Posted by: Steve || 10/05/2006 09:07 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Europe
France Forces Thousands of Immigrants to Leave
The amnesty granted by French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy for illegal immigrants has expired. To date, 30,000 people have applied for the amnesty. However, after careful review, only 6,924 were entitled to stay in France. French authorities notified the remaining 23,000 illegal immigrants to leave the country within one month. Thousands of Turkish families who were notified of the deportation order are now considering their options with great concern. Interior Minister Sarkozy has demanded that governors accelerate the deportation process.

Sarkozy’s amnesty circular, issued in June, was aimed at granting residence permits to immigrant families which met certain criteria. Under the circular, in order for a family to qualify for a residence permit, the parents had to have lived in France for at least two years, the children studied in France since 2005, at least one child be born in France, or come to France before the age of 13, and have no connection with their native country. However, many families’ applications were turned down, even if they met those criteria.

Asserting that the circular was not properly implemented, the French non-governmental organizations (NGOs) advocating immigrant rights mobilized to stop massive deportations. Civil organizations are preparing to take the issue to the judiciary. Opposing deportation of children in particular, the organizations try to prevent their deportation by arranging French school guardians for the immigrant children. To expel the immigrants as soon possible, Sarkozy demanded the governors accelerate the deportation process. In a statement last week, Sarkozy said that 14,304 people have been deported this year, and they aim at deporting 11,000 more by the end of 2006.

Meanwhile, Chinese constitute one-third of the immigrants granted residence permits in France, revealing the substantial number of illegal Chinese immigrants. Nobody, including law enforcement authorities, predicted such a large number.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Good graphic. But I think the "bye, bye" graphic would have been fun too.

If this is true, then France is a bit like the US. The MSM reports one thing and reality reports another.
Posted by: anon || 10/05/2006 0:23 Comments || Top||

#2  Going to be very interesting to see how this plays. I doubt any will go without being pushed. What's the muscle for pushing ?
Posted by: SpecOp35 || 10/05/2006 1:07 Comments || Top||

#3  Let's go, Frogs. Show us you can run 'em off. If you can throw your illegals out, that will be the start of reestablishing your credibility as a Western nation--a credibility that currently stands at zero.
Posted by: mac || 10/05/2006 1:35 Comments || Top||

#4 
Redacted by moderator. Comments may be redacted for trolling, violation of standards of good manners, or plain stupidity. Please correct the condition that applies and try again. Contents may be viewed in the
sinktrap. Further violations may result in
banning.
Posted by: PASSIONATE AMERICA || 10/05/2006 2:29 Comments || Top||

#5  Lol. Woohoo! Nothing quite like a Passionate Poster, lol.

Je peux crier, ne vous entends pas.
(I can shout, don't hear you.)
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 2:35 Comments || Top||

#6  We need this big time in the UK but our government havent a clue where they are?????
Posted by: Cheregum Crelet7867 || 10/05/2006 4:47 Comments || Top||

#7  PASSIONATE AMERICA is posting via Los Angeles.

So I have to wonder ..... if you find America a sh*thole of morons, just why are you here? Forced to by some circumstance beyond your control? or did you come to benefit from some of the richness here, while spitting at those who have created it?
Posted by: lotp || 10/05/2006 5:22 Comments || Top||

#8  The frogs finally got their act together. I can't believe the Brits are still stalling on stuff like this. I love it - the frogs are whispering sweet nothings into the ears of the Muslim world while deporting the illegal Muslim riff-raff they'd rather be rid of. The sorry fact is that the British Labor Party may be helping us in Afghanistan and Iraq, but they really believe in this multi-culti stuff and are more likely to become the first Muslim - but formerly Christian - outpost of the new caliphate than France, which is unapologetically making life uncomfortable for its Muslims.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 10/05/2006 5:37 Comments || Top||

#9  Forced to leave with nothing but their camels on their backs.
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/05/2006 6:00 Comments || Top||

#10  A terrible metaphor, PASSIONATE AMERICA. Cook bean soup long enough and all the beans fall apart into mush and empty skins, resulting in a thick, homogeneous liquid, no longer separate bits floating in a thin broth. Just like those Hispanic-Americans who've been here a while; they save their pennies to buy a house, push their children to go to university, and vote Republican exactly like the majority of US citizens, those whose ancestral tongue is other than Spanish.

Perhaps you'd like to try again? And you didn't mention Aztlan or the Reconquista -- all in all an ineffective little rant, I'm afraid.
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 7:07 Comments || Top||

#11  Perhaps "Passionate America" objects to the pork in cassolet and disdains those who would eat it?
Posted by: lotp || 10/05/2006 7:10 Comments || Top||

#12  "PASSIONATE AMERICA" is our occasional troll "nuke izrael."
Posted by: Dave D. || 10/05/2006 7:23 Comments || Top||

#13  Ah. Good memory Dave.

Yeah, that explains the "bean soup" bit all right.
Posted by: lotp || 10/05/2006 7:27 Comments || Top||

#14  That explains the patent idiocy of his statement then, Dave D. He seems to have just brain cells enough to touch each of the letters on his keyboard in turn, with none left over for actual thinking, the poor dear.
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 7:28 Comments || Top||

#15  BFD : first, there's a whole network of trotskyst ngos and leftist personnalities doing their utmost to subvert the law (when you have elected personalities telling to break the law, you know there's a problem), so a large part of this is just talk from sarko (many won't be expelled); then, according to a writer named Maxime Tandonnet, a high civil servant who bases his works on official stats, there are about 350 to 500 000 migrants coming to France a year (the undertainty is not about figures, it's due to the fact kids under 15 are not included in the official total), so even if there were 25 000-30 000 expulsions a year, that would amount to 10% at best.
The whole establisment is still very much pro-immigration, be it the whole social subsidies system which is an immigration pump (IE migrants can come to leech off the system, with free "universal" healthcare, polygamous families receiving family aid, housing costs covered by the State even though many ethnic french are not housed correctly,...), or the EUcrats, who tells us the continent will need to open itself to a new massive wave of immigration to counter the rapid aging of its population.

The camp of the Saints still applies.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 8:08 Comments || Top||

#16  WHOIS results for 67.100.252.52

OrgName: Covad Communications Co.
OrgID: CVAD
Address: 2510 Zanker Rd.
City: San Jose
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 95131
Country: US
Posted by: Pappy || 10/05/2006 9:48 Comments || Top||

#17  Hmmm...PASSIONATE AMERICA is the name of the website which has (accidentally) learned the name of Rep. Foley's page friend, according to Drudge.

Coincidence?
Posted by: Angie Schultz || 10/05/2006 10:14 Comments || Top||

#18  My guess, based on his command of English and his opinions is that PASSIONATE AMERICA is another Muzzie scumbag living here among us. Wherever you live, pay attention. It's not that hard to pick these bastards out. Know where they are.
Posted by: SpecOp35 || 10/05/2006 10:52 Comments || Top||

#19  COVAD is a local ISP.
Posted by: GolfBravoUSMC || 10/05/2006 11:23 Comments || Top||

#20  Back to the topic at hand. If France forces thousands of immigrants to leave what is to stop them from reentering France, or just reentering Europe and latching onto a more hospitible host?
Posted by: rjschwarz || 10/05/2006 13:04 Comments || Top||

#21  La France, et ne pas se rendante? L'enfer gèla-t-il?
Posted by: Korora || 10/05/2006 13:55 Comments || Top||

#22  "Let them eat Hummus". Heh
Posted by: Brett || 10/05/2006 21:40 Comments || Top||

#23  anon or anous shut up because your pot (melting) is now a beans soup so do not critic others more civil countrys than your united morons of america shit hole
Posted by: PASSIONATE AMERICA || 10/05/2006 2:29 Comments || Top||


India-Pakistan
113 Inmates Freed From Cleric's Private Jail
Haripur, 5 Oct. (AKI/DAWN) - Raiding a private jail run by a cleric in a village near Haripur, some 65 kilometres north of the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, police have freed 113 people, seven of them British nationals of Pakistani origin. Many of them were young men and boys. Maulana Ilyas Qadri, who was running the private jail, and his six guards were also arrested in the raid carried out late on Monday night.

The district police officer Abdul Rasheed Khan said that a police party, acting on a complaint, raided the jail in Badhana village, along the Tarbela Lake, and freed the 113 people from illegal detention. All of them were fettered and appeared severely malnourished. They were treated in an inhuman manner by the cleric and guards of the jail, the DPO told newsmen on Wednesday.

Cases have been registered against the cleric and his six guards — Ghulam Kibriya, Shaukat Rehman, Fakhar Zaman, Farman Khan, Javed and Mazar Ali.

The complainants who had escaped from the jail said they were tortured and kept fettered. “They would beat us with clubs whenever someone tried to escape or object to the treatment meted out to them,” they said. They alleged that the guards also sexually abused them and children. All the freed inmates were brought to Haripur district courts where eight boys Ghani, Sarfraz, Najeebullah, Adeel, Ehsan Ali, Mohammad Hanif, Zeshana and Abdul Ahad — aged between 12 and 18 years — recorded their statements before civil judge Hina Khan.
Posted by: Steve || 10/05/2006 09:01 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "113 people... Many of them were young men and boys."
"They alleged that the guards also sexually abused them and children."
"...eight boys... — aged between 12 and 18 years — recorded their statements before civil judge Hina Khan."
Why is Foley getting all the attention?
Posted by: Darrell || 10/05/2006 9:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Many of them were young men and boy toys.

There, fixed that.

The reason why Foley's getting all the attention is that, here in America, we don't live in some prehistoric pisshole backwater where such misbegotten behavior is par for the course.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 12:28 Comments || Top||

#3  why not release the Maulana and his thugs to the custody of the 113?
Posted by: Frank G || 10/05/2006 13:55 Comments || Top||

#4  Lock them in their own "Jail"
Shackle them to the bars and weld their chains together.
Post a guard to prevent any welding/cutting implements inside, otherwise allow free entry and exit.
Wait.
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 10/05/2006 19:18 Comments || Top||


Rockets Found Near Parliament Building In Islamabad
Islamabad, 5 Oct. (AKI) - Pakistani security forces found two rockets near the parliament building in the capital Islamabad. The website of Pakistan's GEO TV reported that the police had cordoned off the area and a bomb disposal squad and security officials were at the site. Police sources were quoted as saying that some 80 people have been arrested. Pakistan's parliament is currently not in session.

The rockets were discovered one day after an explosion rocked a park in Rawalpindi, close to Pakistani president General Pervez Musharraf's army residence.
Word on the radio is that the rockets were wired to cell phones.
Posted by: Steve || 10/05/2006 08:42 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  A wrong number in Rawalpindi?
Posted by: Darrell || 10/05/2006 9:21 Comments || Top||

#2  Long distance rates are a killer.
Posted by: ed || 10/05/2006 9:53 Comments || Top||

#3 
Posted by: Perfesser || 10/05/2006 14:32 Comments || Top||

#4  Those debates can get quite heated after all!
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 10/05/2006 19:01 Comments || Top||


Explosion damages gas pipeline
QUETTA: Unknown assailants blew up a gas pipeline using a bomb in Mangli on Wednesday, but there were no casualties. The explosion, which suspended the supply of gas, damaged a portion of the line.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Terror outfit Al-Mansorian launches major attack in Kashmir capital Srinagar
(KUNA) -- Terror outfit Al-Mansorian has claimed responsibility for the attack on the Indian Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) camp Wednesday in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir. The guerrillas launched an attack on the CRPF camp in the busy Lal Chowk area in Srinagar Wednesday morning, leading Indian English News Channel CNN-IBN reported. The guerrillas also launched a grenade attack on a Srinagar hotel, injuring two civilians, the news channel reported. A fierce encounter between the guerrillas and the security forces is still on at Srinagar.

Indian Security forces have sealed parts of Srinagar. The exact number of terrorists involved in the attack was not immediately known. Many civilians, including employees of some government and private offices, are trapped inside their offices as the encounter is on, the news channel said.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Mumbai bombings 'main brain' arrested
Police in India said today they had captured one of the key suspects in the investigation into the train bombings that killed 207 commuters on Mumbai's rail network in July. Asif Khan, believed to be a Pakistani national, was apprehended on Monday and is the 16th person to be held in connection with the attacks. Police investigator K P Raghuvanshi described Mr Khan - who also used the alias Junaid - as "the main brain behind the bombings".

“Mumbai police commissioner, A N Roy, said on Saturday that an intensive investigation that included using truth serum on suspects revealed the Inter-Services Intelligence agency had "masterminded" the bombings that injured 700.”
Little is known about Mr Khan, 35, other than that he is believed to be a commander of the banned Pakistan-based militant group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, which India continues to blame for the attacks. Lashkar-e-Taiba is banned in Pakistan but continues to function under other names, including, most recently, as a charity called Jamaat ud Dawa. It has been fighting Indian rule in Kashmir for a decade and was a behind a suicide attack on the Indian parliament in December 2003.

Police said Mr Khan was sought on separate charges of making bombs and planting explosives. At the weekend authorities in India claimed that Pakistan's intelligence service sponsored the coordinated bomb attacks, which they said were carried out by Lashkar-e-Taiba, with the cooperation of the outlawed Students Islamic Movement of India.

Pakistan has repeatedly denied any involvement. However, the Mumbai police commissioner, A N Roy, said on Saturday that an intensive investigation that included using truth serum on suspects revealed the Inter-Services Intelligence agency had "masterminded" the bombings that injured 700. Police said three Indians were still on the run and another Pakistani was killed in one of the blasts.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  main brain. Lol! I guess that mastermind is out of fashion now. Soo 2005.
Posted by: anon || 10/05/2006 0:20 Comments || Top||

#2  I dunno. It feels like India might be getting ready to do some housecleaning. Possibly even get nasty with the Pakis, if they think they have enough proof of their involvement.
Posted by: mojo || 10/05/2006 1:35 Comments || Top||

#3  Its about time the Indians retaliate.The Militants supported by Paki ISI are always attacking India without response!

They need to be taught a lesson big Time!!!!
Posted by: Cheregum Crelet7867 || 10/05/2006 4:42 Comments || Top||

#4  Is "Main Brain" better then "mastermind"?
I gots to know.
Posted by: tu3031 || 10/05/2006 17:07 Comments || Top||

#5  Can I suggest that on a guilty verdict, the distance betwixt the 'main brain' and the 'main neck' is dramatically increased very soon after?
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 10/05/2006 19:00 Comments || Top||


Explosion heard in park near Musharraf's home
An explosion was heard in a public park not far from the residence of Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf. There were no immediate reports of injuries, and the cause was unclear. Police and other security forces have cordoned off the Ayub Park, site of the reported blast, in the garrison city of Rawalpindi, a senior army official said on condition of anonymity because he lacked the authority to make formal media comments.

Mohammed Azhar, a police control officer in Rawalpindi, said that there were no reports of injuries from the explosion and its cause was unclear. "Whatever that has happened, it was inside the park," Azhar said.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Squirrels. Heavily armed squirrels."
Posted by: mojo || 10/05/2006 1:38 Comments || Top||

#2  Lol, mojo. :-)
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 1:46 Comments || Top||

#3  It was just that Polish guy commenting on Musharraf.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 1:52 Comments || Top||

#4  Only gets interesting if his ass at least gets singed. Other than that the MSM reports are simply banal gap fillers.
Posted by: Duh! || 10/05/2006 17:05 Comments || Top||

#5  Outdoor wedding?
Posted by: tu3031 || 10/05/2006 17:08 Comments || Top||


Iraq
Iraqi Police Brigade Doesn't Make Cut, Sent Back To Re-org and Retrain
...Caldwell also addressed the Iraqi Ministry of Interior no-notice recall of the 8th Brigade, 2nd National Police.

"This brigade is being pulled off line immediately. They will report to a forward operating base to reorganize and begin, specifically, anti-militia, anti-sectarian violence and national unity training both at the unit level and at the individual level," Caldwell said.

This brigade’s past performance has not demonstrated the level or professionalism sought by the Ministry of Interior.

"There are clearly units within the police forces that need retraining, but there are also others that have proven themselves to be very competent and professional units," Caldwell said.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 10/05/2006 21:12 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraqi Minister Escapes Bomb Attack; 12 Die
A series of bombs exploded near the convoy of Iraq's industry minister yesterday, killing 12 people and wreaking havoc across a Baghdad neighborhood. Two bombs exploded in front of Industry Minister Fawzi Al-Hariri's convoy killing three bodyguards, followed by a massive car bomb at a nearby automotive parts market that killed nine people and wounded 75, security officials said. The minister told AFP he wasn't in the convoy when the bombs went off. "At the time of the attack, I was with the prime minister (Nuri Al-Maliki)," he said. The cars, he added, had been out to fill up with fuel when they came under attack.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 15:54 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Dayum! The jihadis have excellent intel. They do a lot of hits.
Posted by: Brett || 10/05/2006 20:58 Comments || Top||


DNA tests will ID slain Foreign Terrorist Iraqi militant
Iraqi officials are performing DNA tests on a slain militant to determine if he is al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Ayyub al-Masri, the deputy interior minister said Thursday. But the U.S. military said it was "highly unlikely" the terror chief had been killed.

An Iraqi Defense Ministry spokesman, Mohammed al-Askari, told Al-Arabiya television that the body "is not that of al-Masri." But he did not say whether the DNA testing had been completed. U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Barry Johnson said a number of al-Qaida suspects were killed in a recent raid in western Anbar province and initially "we thought there was a possibility al-Masri was among them. As we did further analysis, we determined that it was highly unlikely that he was killed."

Deputy Interior Minister Maj. Gen. Hussein Kamal said the raid took place two days ago. Al-Arabiya and Al-Jazeera television reported that the militants were killed by U.S. forces during a raid near Haditha. "We suspect one of those killed is Abu Ayyub al-Masri. We are holding DNA tests to find out if he is," Kamal told the AP. He and Johnson did not give further details.
Missed him by THAT much.
Posted by: ed || 10/05/2006 09:46 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1 
Posted by: Perfesser || 10/05/2006 14:26 Comments || Top||


Confusion Over Al-Qaeda Leader's Fate
Baghdad, 5 Oct. (AKI) - A US military spokesman in Iraq has denied reports that the new leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Ayyub al-Masri, has been killed. Satellite television network Al Arabiya on Thursday quoted Iraqi security sources saying that US forces had killed al-Masri and three other suspected terrorists in an operation in Haditha, west of Baghdad. Egyptian born al-Masri, whose battle name is Abu Hamza Al Muhajir, took over the leadership of al-Qaeda in Iraq after Jordanian militant Abu Musab Al Zarqawi was killed in June.

US coalition sources said that there had been an operation in which militants were killed, and that initially it was thought one of them was al-Masri. Iraqi sources said the raids on Wednesday afternoon followed a long series of clashes in the Sunni province of Diyala, in which scores of 'foreign terrorists' were killed, and the arrest of more than 200 Iraqi insurgents.

The US military authorities are believed to be waiting for the results of DNA tests on those killed in the raid.
Posted by: Steve || 10/05/2006 08:58 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Almost 260, including 11 foreign fighters, killed or caught north-east Baghdad
(KUNA) -- More than 260 Iraqi fighters, including foreigners, were killed or rounded up Wednesday in a large army operation in the governorate of Diali, north of the capital Baghdad, a police source said in a statement. "The Fifth Iraqi squad force, which continued to crack down on armed men in the district of Diali, succeeded in killing or arresting about 250 terrorists in the city of Baqouba, the largest in the governorate of Diali," the statement said. It added that the operation was called "fast reply."

“Local tribes killed 11 foreign fighters including nine Syrians, one Saudi and one Sudanese...”
"The success of the operation was due to the cooperation of local Iraqi tribes," the head of the Diali police station Staff Lieutenant-General Ghassan Al-Bawi said. He added that local tribes had killed 11 foreign fighters including nine Syrians, one Saudi and one Sudanese. This support from local tribes took place for the second time, the first time had taken place in Anbar, West of Baghdad.

Meanwhile, Sheikh Abdel-Sattar Al-Rishawi, one of the tribal elders in Anbar, said the local tribes had succeeded in purging the coastal road linking Iraq to Syria. In a related development, an Iraqi died in clashes with a British military force. The incident took place in the middle of the city of Basra, in Iraq's southern part. No casualties were reported among the British side.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They're not even "insurgents" or "militants" anymore, much less "terrorists", they're "fighters". Yup, yewbetcha.

Fuck KUNA. The gold standard that AP, AFP, BBC, NYT, etc aspire to...
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:04 Comments || Top||

#2  Just once I'd like to see them use the proper, "Muslim terrorist".

Good news with my coffee.
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/05/2006 5:57 Comments || Top||

#3  Brand them with an "L" on their foreheads and send them home in disgrace. Oh, and bill their families for costs incurred in capture and transshipment.

/wishful thinking.
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 7:13 Comments || Top||

#4  I suspect it was a pretty easy bag, relatively speaking, because these troublemakers had been driven out of their 'hoods in other parts of Baghdad and were strangers up there, with zero local support.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 10/05/2006 9:08 Comments || Top||

#5  twife

how about this amendment,

bring their bodies to the next Arab League meeting and dump them on the conference table at the first plenary session (if no Arab League meeting schedule, an OIC or 'non aligned' or UN meeting will do).
Posted by: mhw || 10/05/2006 11:32 Comments || Top||

#6  Second amendment - brand them with a crescent and star inside a circle, with a bar across the middle - the international sign that islam is not allowed.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 10/05/2006 15:48 Comments || Top||

#7  Heck, why not take them to the next AL or UN meeting and spell out the words "NOPE, NO TERRORISTS HERE!" on the front lawn? I wonder what the Al Jizz would do with that. I wonder what the MSM would do with that!
Posted by: gorb || 10/05/2006 16:00 Comments || Top||


Aide of al-Qaida Leader in Iraq Arrested
An aide of the head of al-Qaida in Iraq was arrested last week, and U.S. and Iraqi forces killed or captured more than 600 suspected members of the terrorist group in September,
“U.S. and Iraqi forces killed or captured more than 600 suspected members of the terrorist group in September...”
the top U.S. military spokesman in Iraq said Wednesday. The associate of Abu Ayyub al-Masri was captured in raids carried out Sept. 28 in Baghdad that also seized 31 other al-Qaida suspects, Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell told reporters. He said the associate had worked as al-Masri's driver and personal assistant and had been involved in planning bombings in the capital. "We feel very comfortable that we're continuing to move forward very deliberately in an effort to find (al-Masri) and kill or capture him," Caldwell said.

During September, U.S. and Iraqi forces killed 110 suspected al-Qaida members and detained another 520, Caldwell said, calling it "a significant upturn over August." He did not say how many were captured or killed the previous month. Fifty of those killed and 16 of those detained were foreign fighters, he said.

In early September, Iraqi officials announced the arrest of Hamed Jumaa Farid al-Saeedi, who they said was a top deputy of al-Masri. "We're obviously gleaning some key critical information from those individuals and others that have been picked up and detained that are going through the interrogation process," Caldwell said.

On Sunday, the Iraqi government released a captured video of al-Masri, showing him demonstrating how to build a bomb in a tanker truck. The video was the first to show the militant leader's face, although U.S. and Iraqi military officials have shown photos of him. Caldwell said he hoped the release could generate tips that would lead to al-Masri's capture. He said coalition forces already conducted one raid based on a tip after the video's release, but it turned out to be a false lead.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It's great to hear of the growing effectiveness of the forces, quality of intel, etc. Warms my heart. Lots more intel yielding lots more asshats.

Then I realize that they're turned over to the Interior Ministry. And *poof* goes the illusion of progress. Taking anyone alive, or keeping them for longer than it takes to get out of them everything they know, Jack Bauer style, is a waste of time.

Things will change only when Tehran and the MM's are mixed with rubble or swing from lampposts.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:10 Comments || Top||

#2  Roll 'em up, boys.
Posted by: mojo || 10/05/2006 1:36 Comments || Top||

#3  Even if they end up back on the streets, they are no longer secure in the knowledge of their invisibility, they'll have lost money, safehouses and supplies, and they won't know which of their comrades or neighbors betrayed them. Insecure people make stupid mistakes, insecure people lose the stomach for such activities and give up and go home. Insecure people no longer have the body language of the strong horse when they're hanging out at the local coffee house trying to pick up little boys as beautiful as pearls.... or so it seems to me in my ignorance of such things.
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 7:21 Comments || Top||

#4  The press release included this nugget which was omitted in this article:

"Testimony from the Abu Ayyub al-Masri associate detained in Baghdad Sept. 12 led to the capture of this suspected terrorist."

So a guy gets caught Sept 12 & interrogated. Two weeks later they catch another junior big shot and presumably have some discussions with him. Then a week after that they announce his previous capture, essentially at the same time they announce a big raid on al-Masri, which seems to have missed. This was a month-long roll-up of a thread of intelligence. Since there's no longer a time delay I presume they reached the end of this thread.

I don't see the problem with turning AQ guys over to Interior; WE sure don't want to be responsible for their long-term care and feeding. The problem is with turning over Shia militia/death squad guys and their Iranian cadres to Interior, who probably thank them, give them a cup of hot tea, and drive them back to their homes.
Posted by: Glenmore || 10/05/2006 8:55 Comments || Top||


4 US soldiers killed in attack in Baghdad
Four US soldiers were killed Wednesday when gunmen attacked their patrol in northwest Baghdad, the US command said, also announcing the deaths of two other soldiers the previous day. The command said "terrorists" attacked the troops on patrol with "indirect and small arms fire" in the morning, killing four soldiers.

The command also announced the deaths of two soldiers Tuesday. One, assigned to 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, was struck by enemy fire near Kirkuk, 290 kilometers north of Baghdad. He later died of his wounds, the command said in a statement. The other died Tuesday afternoon in a small-arms attack on his patrol in Baghdad, the military said.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The difference between KUNA ("fighters") and the JPost ("terrorists")...

We have allowed ourselves to be hamstrung by observing political protocols - i.e. pretending the Iraqis have a "government". They don't. It's not. Gotta take the gloves off, using OS's cordon and clear technique as in Fallujah. If we're not up to that approach, then we should prolly withdraw to Kurdistan and start working on that Med port. Let the fucking Arabs kill each other - without any assistance from us - in other words, we don't give any more aid (arms, intel, nothing) to the Shias. Fuck the Arabs. Any worth warm spit are heading for Kurdistan, anyway.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:17 Comments || Top||

#2  I'm going to agree with .com. It doesn't seem to be getting any better. For a country with as much military experience as Iraq, it sure is taking a long time for them to get trained up. Compare the timeline to the USA in 1941.

Why should our guys die for a fucking religious civil war between people who have commited so much atrocities in the name of God that they diminish all organized religion.

Al Qaeda has had its ass handed to them. Why patrol independently anymore?

With air power we ensure that the civil war stays a guerilla campaign. That's all we can hope to accomplish. Everything else has to be done by the Iraqis, who so far have shown themselves to be a major disappointment.

We've given them as good an opportunity as any nation could get.
Posted by: Penguin || 10/05/2006 1:26 Comments || Top||

#3  We're not doing it for them. We're doing it for us. We didn't invade out of altruism, but because we saw it as in our own best interest. If Saddam's tyranny had been no threat to us we would have left him alone (see Zimbabwe).

If we leave a broken mess in Iraq our enemies will with some justification claim victory. They will be emboldened to attack our interests elsewhere and everywhere. Fencesitters wondering whether they should ally themselves with America will have to remember what happened when the Iraqis trusted us. Anti-western ideologues will denigrate democracy and freedom as imperialist notions and the frontiers of liberty will shrink closer to our own shores. Al-Qaeda and its ilk would find sanctuary amidst the violence of a failed state, as they once did in Afghanistan and do now in Somalia, but in a big oil rich nation rather than a remote backwater. Our dead service members will have perished for a cause that failed, and that failure will leave the US more vulnerable than when the conflict began.

Leaving Iraq to degenerate into a nightmare of spiralling violence is no solution. It would be a terrible thing for American security and America's future.
Posted by: Baba Tutu || 10/05/2006 2:32 Comments || Top||

#4  BT - I hear you. Then: Gotta take the gloves off, using OS's cordon and clear technique as in Fallujah. The Iraqi "government" is a clusterfuck and we are hamstrung and being bled by our civility.

I want to win - and that doesn't mean handing the Shias revenge and creating a satellite for the MM's. If we take Iran down, then a LOT of the shit will stop. Iran provides money, arms, and agents. Without them, the Iraqis will suddenly find themselves facing the choice they have yet to make: Create a country - a real functioning country worthy of the term - or continue centuries of sectarian stupidity and hate out of their own pockets. No money sure takes the glamor out of the game.

3 years ago I advocated that we force an American-style democracy and government - and I mean just what that says. I was laughed outta town. This PC thing, stepping back and allowing them to create a crippled bastardized Arab / Islamic shithole based upon the clusterfuck of Euro-styled slate bullshit hasn't worked out very well.

Deep sigh. Okay, I'm all better, now.

My posts express my frustration with our contradictory policies, foolishness for discounting the only democratic format that actually seems to work to the benefit of individuals - ours, and the completely fucked up results. I mourn each and every dead soldier in Iraq, including the Iraqis who aren't simply being tribal or sectarian tools (I presume there are some number of those) and I recognize the cost of failure. Regards the rest of the world, well, I have an interesting theory: their opinion only matters because we allow it to. If we didn't give a rat fuck what they think, then what they think wouldn't be worth a rat fuck. Heh.

Peace. Through no gloves on superior firepower. :-)
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 2:55 Comments || Top||

#5  .com: 3 years ago I advocated that we force an American-style democracy and government - and I mean just what that says. I was laughed outta town. This PC thing, stepping back and allowing them to create a crippled bastardized Arab / Islamic shithole based upon the clusterfuck of Euro-styled slate bullshit hasn't worked out very well.

I've always thought that was the best solution. I am starting to move towards the view that Rumsfeld is Lyndon Johnson, but worse. Johnson was the king of the penny packet deployment - letting our troops get nibbled to death - via onerous rules of engagement that had them in a straitjacket, but he had 500,000 troops in South Vietnam. Rumsfeld had, at the peak, 130,000 troops in Iraq. Why am I not comparing Johnson to Bush? Because Bush has delegated to Rumsfeld. Which means that Rumsfeld is in Johnson's position. By having insufficient troops in Iraq, we are playing whack-a-mole in a game where there are dozens of moles, but only one mallet. This is why it's dragged on for so long - we are sending out squad-sized units when we should be sending out platoon-sized units, and so on and so forth. Rumsfeld should have expanded the ground forces - and its budget - when he had the political capital to do so, right after 9/11. But he stuck stubbornly to his concept of transformation, and our ground troops are paying the price.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 10/05/2006 5:51 Comments || Top||

#6  Hmmmm.... I wonder what the death toll would be if we had twice the number of troops? Double? Or half?

I could go either way!
Posted by: Bobby || 10/05/2006 6:36 Comments || Top||

#7  Leaving Iraq to degenerate into a nightmare of spiralling violence is no solution. It would be a terrible thing for American security and America's future.

Would the same be true for Iran?

It is not our responsibility to coddle every enemy we have to defeat to assure our security. It's expensive and there's no assurance it will work, especially with the primitive tribal societies of the Middle East. There's an assumption that these people are jsut like us, and at an individula level, that's true to some extent. But their cultures are nothing like ours and there's no way we'll turn them into Little Europes let alone Little Americas. Look at what we accomplished in a half century in the Philippines.

So the next time we go into a country over there I hope it is not to liberate the people yearning to be free but to devastate an enemy so that it never wants to see our military visit in BDUs again. Just break things, kill people and leave. Let's at least give it a try so we can compare results. It worked with the Native Americans.

I'm sure the MSM would not like it. We'd need Rummy II to say TS daily in the press briefings. But I'm not at all sure our security would be any the worse for it.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 10/05/2006 6:47 Comments || Top||

#8  ZF -- Response in two parts...

Part I - Rambling review and speculation... Well, I've thought about this troop level debate quite a bit. One thing, a serious limitation, that jumps out is numbers in a given MOS. We've been told that in the Marines everyone is a rifleman. Mebbe, but prolly not literally true. I'm sure there are specialties which don't get range time nor are they trained on every weapon. In the Army, I KNOW it's not true, but it might be changing.

I believe the rub is the mix of well-trained personnel. If you need a lot of trigger-pullers, more than the traditional 50% that we supposedly have planned for, then we're going to have a problem when rotation for downtime, terminations, deaths, and debilitating injuries are factored in. What's our rotation cycle, on the line vs downtime? How many qualified people can we be sure we'll have available at any given time? What is the max number of the right mix can we put into the field and maintain the seed corn for the next cycle? I think we probably need a number at least 4x the known requirements, more is likely, if we expect to maintain numbers and proficiency over the long haul.

People who have access to hard numbers can play around, insert live numbers, correct my mistakes, and I'll wager it comes out where I did: our standing force may not be large enough and of the right mix for the current types of warfare we're facing, although it might have been perfect for stopping the Russkies at the Fulda Gap. Do / did we have the needed force to cover the commitments we took on after 9/11? How much of our force was wasted - languishing in pointless posts (a shifting target, lol) around the world, Iceland, Germany, SKor, etc. Do we need a draft? No. Make that HELL NO. That creates more problems that it solves. We are doing it right, we're just not scaled up to what the real world demands nor have the right mix - more SF, etc. AND we need a force level with pay and benefits to keep 'em - something Bush and Rummy don't control, that can sustain our commitments. If that means beating Congress over the head to create 100,000 more slots, allocating more of the headcount to trigger-pullers, MPs, civil affairs, whatever, and upping the pay package substantially, I can hear the screaming now, well so be it.

Part II - What happened... What to do... I will brave your wrath by saying it's not Rummy doing the nickle and dime routine - it's a combination of things:

1) The situation we faced came upon us suddenly, i.e. 9/11. We started with a seriously downsized force where the most experienced people seem to have been much of the portion sent packing by the Clintoonians. The mix was probably wrong, too.

2) The insurgency had a solid safe logistical base because Turkey fucked us. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. If we had executed the original plan, hammer on anvil, and treated the Sunni Triangle to a thorough ass-whooping, as well as not having to zoom up the two rivers to topple Baghdad with only a hammer and loitered a bit longer kicking the fuck out of fedayeen along the way, I think the native Ba'athist insurgency would've been greatly lessened in size and duration. It would not have eliminated it, but it would have given pause to the tribal sheikhs who've supported and fostered the insurgency. It would've largely removed the logistical base for the foreign asshats who came streaming across to hit the flypaper, too. Fight with what you can carry is a shitload tougher - ask any paratrooper. Just my opinion. The experts can correct all my mistakes.

3) It takes years to ramp up forces that make the grade. We didn't have much time nor the headcount slots, anyway, when the shit hit the fan. We don't have the package that will "steal" people from the private sector. We get almost nothing but bright-eyed patriotic kids - not a bad thing, of course, but we have to keep 'em to make the professional force work for the long haul. I'm for doubling the pay and making the bennies good enough that the families are happy and safe, too. They are the largest component in having a soldier who's happy with staying in, I'll bet. I'm sure we offer them something akin to a shit sandwich, at the moment. That's Congress' responsibility. Congress will spend money on anything they figure their constituents really demand or will beat them up for not providing, such as armor and technology, but not headcount (without a ton of totally bullshit political braying) and certainly not the pay package. Think Rangel and the draft for an example of the politics.

4) This occurred simultaneously with the worldwide force restructuring - and expectations of how much and how quickly this might alleviate the manpower problems was probably too rosy.

5) We hosed it regards the borders - wide open for the first 2 - 2.5 years.

6) We hosed it regards to what extent Iran would go to undermine the entire campaign.

7) We hosed it regards the political model for the government.

8) Nation-building. For Arabs - never again. A shithole and source of grief? Fuck 'em -- break it and dare them to repeat the mistake.

Items 5, 6 & 7 are mutually exacerbating, IMHO.

Okay, It's very very late here (4:00 AM) and I'm crashing, so I'll shut up. It's where we are and why, IMHO. And no, I don't excuse Rummy or Bush, but I also refuse to lynch 'em. Shit happens. Bad shit, too. Our people are so fucking good, however, that we're getting by in spite of the bad shit. Next stop, Tehran and then 5 & 6, long overdue regards Iraq, get solved.

I've just re-read this and it's shit, but hey, it's late. My $0.02. BBL8r.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 7:16 Comments || Top||

#9  Oops, overlapped with you, NS - and repeated some of what you posted. Apologies, folks.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 7:17 Comments || Top||

#10  Rumsfeld had to juggle several pressing issues when he came back as SecDef again. One was the politicization of the top brass, to a fair degree, under Clinton. Another was the deliberate hobbling of our military capabilities post-Vietnam, when key functions were pushed down into the Reserves and left as people-intensive tasks. In addition, we were tied down in Germany, Korea, Iceland etc. to facilities that were expensive to keep, but which we no longer controlled for any real operational use.

The result was a military that was both tied to old cold war models AND tied to Reserves and possibly a draft for any conflict of any real size, AND hobbled by the brakes of the UN and most of NATO.

He started to dismantle that well before 9/11, with predictable howls and rice bowl defending. Then came the attacks in 2001 and the counter attack in Afghanistan -- and there his model worked well, until it was overtaken by politics.

Reportedly, Rumsfeld wasn't keen on a land attack on Iraq and an occupation. I'd say he was prescient on that. But it's not fair to lay at his feet the muddle thereafter. BUSH allowed the Collin Powell State Dept to veto use of ex-pat Iraqi forces to spread out to take control of key towns and gather intels. Bush allowed State to seize control of reconstruction and the heavily politicized CIA to conduct an insurgency here at home.

And he did that in part because of the political insurgency conducted by the Democrats -- and I use the term advisedly. Destruction of key infrastructure (intel gathering, for instance) in order to paralyze those in power and intimidate them.

The American public allowed this to happen. SHAME ON US.
Posted by: lotp || 10/05/2006 7:20 Comments || Top||

#11  Do we need a draft? No. Make that HELL NO. That creates more problems that it solves. We are doing it right, we're just not scaled up to what the real world demands nor have the right mix - more SF, etc. AND we need a force level with pay and benefits to keep 'em -

Yay and Amen, brother .com.

Note that it was Rumsfeld who passed over a bunch of senior generals to put the retired head of SOCOM as Army chief of staff. That, less than 10 years after Schwarzkopf did everything he could to (successfully) keep special forces OUT of Gulf 1.

Bringing in Schoomaker as Army COS and putting a Marine (!!) as commander of Strategic Command (!!!), plus a Marine as chairman of the JCS .... These are the real Rumsfeld revolution. The technologies are just tools to support a much more fundamental shift of our capabilities to be more expeditionary, nimble, skilled, able to bring devastating force to bear in a pin point way, more knowledgeable about things like counterinsurgency tactics.
Posted by: lotp || 10/05/2006 7:21 Comments || Top||

#12  Congress will spend money on anything they figure their constituents really demand or will beat them up for not providing, such as armor and technology, but not headcount (without a ton of totally bullshit political braying) and certainly not the pay package.

Spending for the GWOT sure went up a lot after 9/11. Where did it go? Congress sure added a lot of costly useless headcount the constitutent didn't want when they created the the Terrorist Stripsearch Authority (TSA). They could always shut it down as a source of funding. I have the suspicion a lot of money is being wasted in the GWOT on beltway bandits, powerpoints and mindless drones, and I don't mean UAVs. Bush has led poorly in this area. If the donks were smart, this is the point they would be making about the war, demonstrating how they would fight it more efficiently and effectively by concentrating on the tip of the spear that is actively engaging the enemy over there, not sitting on its butt over here.

This is a great thread already and presages what the intelligent debate for 2008 ought to be about.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 10/05/2006 7:36 Comments || Top||

#13  Great stuff, lotp - I only suspected some of what you know as fact. Especially the politicized Pentagon - not apparent until the assholes came out sporting their political agendas which just happened to be anti-Bush / pro-Clinton BS... Maybe a much larger (lion's?) share of gratitude for the turnaround from the insanity of the Vietnam Era to today's far more effective services leadership should go to Rummy. I've been giving it to Powell and Schwartzkopf, among others, up till now. Thx!

Gotta sleep and get back on a day schedule - my master friend will be back on Friday, lol.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 7:38 Comments || Top||

#14  Lol... One more comment.

NS: "not sitting on its butt over here"

That would be a trick, lol, requiring them to stand their drumbeat rhetoric of the last 3 years on its head. Not that this would be anything new for the Dhimmis... Lol.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 7:40 Comments || Top||

#15  Maybe a much larger (lion's?) share of gratitude for the turnaround from the insanity of the Vietnam Era to today's far more effective services leadership should go to Rummy. I've been giving it to Powell and Schwartzkopf

Be advised, the current SECDEF is the primary reason you no longer hear from Storm'n Norman, Powell, Tommy Franks, or many others. I'll give the egomaniac bastard no credit or quarter.
Posted by: Besoeker || 10/05/2006 8:06 Comments || Top||

#16  Bobby: Hmmmm.... I wonder what the death toll would be if we had twice the number of troops? Double? Or half?

I could go either way!


My feeling is that unless the other side suddenly musters up double the weaponry and trigger-pullers, twice the number of troops means half the number of casualties. Whack-a-mole with insufficient troops means the enemy gets to do stuff unmolested while our troops are covering other areas. What our guys are doing is garrison work - essentially police work with JDAM's, tanks, Strykers, mortars and automatic weapons.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 10/05/2006 13:33 Comments || Top||

#17  Interesting, ZF, and I tend to agree, but what about twice the number of "targets" for the bad guyz? More trigger pullers, sure, but also more supply folks, more convoys - more 'soft' targets, right? Whaddabout twice the "rage" of the insulted muzzie?

But I tend to agree.
Posted by: Bobby || 10/05/2006 14:42 Comments || Top||

#18  You can sing the praises of Donald Rumsfeld all you want, but the man will be judged by the result. And so far, it ain't looking good.
Posted by: Speart Flerong2904 || 10/05/2006 20:24 Comments || Top||

#19  really? Who else prdicted th econquering of afghanistan AND iraq with less than 5000 causalties? 3000? STFU until you have a better paln and no peekies on Rummies'. I've had my fill of scumbag armchair QB's. As I recall we were looking at 40,000-100,000 casualty predictions. Anyone who can say they would have less with more success than Rummy can kiss my ass. None of this Speart Flerong2904 shit either. Have the fucking guts to maintain a nym so I and others can ridicule you specifically when your stupid projections fizzle. I've done it, why don't you, pussy?
Posted by: Frank G || 10/05/2006 21:44 Comments || Top||

#20  As I recall we were looking at 40,000-100,000 casualty predictions.

Wow. That's a lot. I don't think Rumsfeld could have predicted jack shit, honestly. He obviously couldn't predict the aftermath.

LOL...until I have a better plan...Sorry, I'll leave it for someone else to clean up after Rummy.
Posted by: Speart Flerong2904 || 10/05/2006 22:01 Comments || Top||

#21  Frank you don't have Nth combat jumps to every hotspot of the world, from every junker of a plane, fighting the good fight for 1961. So forget it.
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 23:46 Comments || Top||

#22  Hell Frank we've got veterans of the Barbary Wars and the XYZ Affair here to give us insight, I'd back off and take a lesson.
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 23:50 Comments || Top||

#23  i wanta hear bout ceramic balls form space!

well Speart Flerong2904??
Posted by: RD || 10/05/2006 23:53 Comments || Top||

#24  we could run sum SOG missions outa I corp.
Posted by: RD || 10/05/2006 23:55 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine-Jordan
Fatah Threatens to Kill Hamas Leaders
Go Team Red!
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Gunmen linked to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement threatened Tuesday to assassinate leaders of the rival Hamas group - signaling a further escalation after 10 Palestinians were killed in three days of Hamas-Fatah fighting.

The threat to kill Hamas leaders was made in a statement by the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent Fatah offshoot. A caller reading from the statement told The Associated Press that Al Aqsa would try to assassinate Interior Minister Said Siyam, Hamas militia chief Youssef Zahar and the group's supreme leader in exile, Khaled Mashaal.
From your lips to Allan's ears ...
``We are going to implement the rule of the people and the revolution by executing the heads of this seditious group,'' the caller said.
Posted by: Steve White || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Ah, they don't have the cajones to do that! :-)
Posted by: gorb || 10/05/2006 0:11 Comments || Top||

#2  Sure they do. Killed one of the Hamas Gaza biggies yesterday.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:19 Comments || Top||

#3  I double-dare 'em ...
Posted by: Steve White || 10/05/2006 0:24 Comments || Top||

#4  The violence also spread to the West Bank where Fatah militants responded by torching the Cabinet building in Ramallah and trashing Hamas offices.

Allah SnackBar!

Posted by: RD || 10/05/2006 1:12 Comments || Top||

#5  ``We are going to implement the rule of the people and the revolution by executing the heads of this seditious group,'' the caller said.

There was a revolution while I wasn't looking? I really have got to stop taking naps!
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 7:43 Comments || Top||

#6  I need a really big soda and a bucket of popcorn with extra butter.

And those funny glasses, the 3-D ones.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 10/05/2006 12:20 Comments || Top||

#7  Thats it, Both sides....Cease fire! Cease fire! Cease Fire! Strategic pause now in effect. The sun has gone fully down, your senseless spraying is doing little more than wasting ammunition and causing the dogs to howl. Use your time wisely lads. Both sides, redistribute the ammo and grenades, clean those weapons, brush off your kit, re-load mags, and get some rest. 0500 will come quickly and we'll need to be right back at it again at first light and morning prayer!
Posted by: Besoeker || 10/05/2006 12:27 Comments || Top||

#8  Perhaps the Security Council could issue a memo...
Posted by: kelly || 10/05/2006 12:55 Comments || Top||

#9  ``We are going to implement the rule of the people and the revolution by executing the heads of this seditious group,'' the caller said.

Uhhh, was it just me, or wasn't the "rule of the people" implemented when they elected Ham A$$ into power? And, BTW, love the "seditious" term, if only we could get the Repubs to use and implement that term against the Donks.
Posted by: BA || 10/05/2006 14:00 Comments || Top||

#10  OK, so they got one. They got lucky. I'll be they don't have the cajones to do it again! :-)
Posted by: gorb || 10/05/2006 15:33 Comments || Top||

#11  "Why, we'll moidalize da bums!"

"Yeah? Sez who?"

"Yer mudda!"

(BANG BANG BANGETY-BANG!)
Posted by: mojo || 10/05/2006 17:49 Comments || Top||


Trial begins for Jordanian terror suspect
The trial began Wednesday for a man charged with fatally shooting a British tourist and wounding six others at a Roman amphitheater in Jordan last month.
“He wanted to avenge the deaths of his two brothers who died in an Israeli raid on Lebanon in 1982. He waited more than 20 years, because he wanted his five children to grow up first.”
Nabeel Ahmed Issa Jaourah, a Jordanian of Palestinian origin, is accused of killing British tourist Christopher Stokes and wounding five other Western tourists, plus a Jordanian policeman. He faces death by hanging if convicted on charges of carrying out terrorist attacks, murder and illegal possession of a weapon. The Jordanian government says that while in custody, Jaourah told his interrogators that he wanted to avenge the deaths of his two brothers who died in an Israeli raid on Lebanon in 1982. He waited more than 20 years, because he wanted his five children to grow up first, the government has said.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Geez. Might as well have said that it was because some ancient ancestor died at the hands of a dinosaur. A Jooosaurus, methinks.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:20 Comments || Top||

#2  "hands" Duh. Wacked-metaphor alert.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 0:21 Comments || Top||

#3  .com, for when you awake refreshed, lol!

Today's Word: Zeugma (Noun)

Pronunciation: ['zug-mê ]

Definition 1: The Greek correlate of the Latinate word, "syllepsis" [si-'lep-sis], a syntactic construction in which a single word governs at least two other words or phrases even though its sense applies to them in different ways, e.g. "He flew off the handle and straight to Rio."

Or "You just gotta hand it it to those dinosaurs, paws for thought".

I know i am wrong, but could not resist

Posted by: rhodesiafever || 10/05/2006 14:40 Comments || Top||

#4  Indeed PD it is known that Dinosaurs killed most mammals with garrots
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 23:54 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Lebanese troops foil Hizbullah demo
Lebanese troops prevented a group of Hizbullah supporters from holding a demonstration on the Israel-Lebanon border near the Fatma crossing on Wednesday. Forces stopped several buses each carrying some 100 Hizbullah activists that were traveling towards the border. Witnesses reported that the Lebanese troops blocked the route to the border with armored vehicles and, after an hour of negotiations with the Hizbullah supporters,
“Defense Minister Amir Peretz ordered an 'aggressive IDF posture' along the border and instructed Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz not to allow Hizbullah to hold demonstrations along the frontier...”
allowed a small group of children to hang a banner with an insulting caricature of US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on the border fence.

When the IDF completed its withdrawal from southern Lebanon before Yom Kippur, Defense Minister Amir Peretz ordered an 'aggressive IDF posture' along the border and instructed Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz not to allow Hizbullah to hold demonstrations along the frontier. Last week, Halutz said he would allow soldiers to open fire at rock-throwing Hizbullah supporters along the Blue Line, the UN-demarcated border with Lebanon. It was the first time the Lebanese army had stopped a demonstration on the border since Halutz granted this permission to IDF troops.
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  This is such a MAJOR development and nobody seems to even care! :-)
Posted by: gorb || 10/05/2006 16:08 Comments || Top||


Terror Networks
WND : Did Iraqi ops take out (TWA 800) jetliner?
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 12:02 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  With all due respect A5089, you're French, right? I have yet to see a conspiracy theory that the French don't like. Is it a hobby in France or something???

It's a faulty fuel tank design and Boeing admits it (or as close as you can get to admitting something like this). There's a fix for it recommended by the NTSB (or TSA?), but it won't be implemented because the risk is deemed very low and it costs too much. In the mean time, affected aircraft must fly with a little extra fuel on board.

Statistically, an old Boeing aircraft will go boom in mid-air, but that should happen once in every 20 years or so, so no one cares. US airlines replace their aircraft past the 20-year mark anyway (except for Northwest it seems) so that's another reason why airlines don't care either.

BTW, a5089, be honest, you think Princess Diana was offed by MI5, don't you? ;-)
Posted by: Speart Flerong2904 || 10/05/2006 12:20 Comments || Top||

#2  I never hated Willy Clinton for boinking Monica's face, but the cover ups of this TWA 800 flight and a number of other crimes and the pardoning of known criminals and the misuse of the Federal Government's power and auspices is why I hate that phalker.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 12:24 Comments || Top||

#3  Speart, you are dead wrong. At the time of the incident, I was driving my car. I then tuned to the NYC talk radio station I knew would hear eyewitness accounts called in. That did happen. in fact some 144 people on the surface saw the missle go up trailing smoke, and hit TWA800. The asshole Clinton administration did a full length cover up, complete with a CIA film showing how it happened. Does anyone ever remember a CIA film being made ? Never before, never since. COVER UP, COVER UP, COVER UP.
I might add Slick Willy delt TWA a death blow, but why should a corrupt democrap give a shit ?
Prolly just republican investers losing their shirt.
No, SF2904, it was no wiring spark. Time to dump the koolaid.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 12:31 Comments || Top||

#4  This article is utter horsecrap.

There was no missile fired at TWA 800. The plane was lost due to an electrical short in a fuel tank that ignited vapors. The "missile" theory was started by moonbats (Pierre Salinger, most prominent among them) eager to blame the crash on accidental friendly fire from a nearby missile cruiser--even though the plane happened to be well outside the engagement envelope of the version of the Standard missile in service at the time.

Look, there were plenty of good, factual reasons to take out Saddam Hussein, and there are plenty of good, factual reasons to conclde that the Clinton administration was less than properly attuned to terrorist threats. We don't need to make stuff up to win the argument on the merits. If WND is going to publish nonsense like this, it might as well change it's name to "The Nation" or "Mother Jones" or "Daily Kos," 'cause that's what it's acting like.
Posted by: Mike || 10/05/2006 12:31 Comments || Top||

#5  Yeah, I DO like conspiracy theories, though I gravitate more toward the really weird ones, hollow earth, shapeshifting reptiloids,..., don't know if this is a froggie thingy (my own PCT tropism comes rather from my US pop culture bias, rather than straight french cultural background, I think).
Like for the Oklahoma bombing, I'd feel inclined to suspect the clinton administration of mismanagement and cover up, based on what I've read (WND did a serie about the TW800 which looked interesting to me, but I'm just the uneducated lay person).
But, in last analysis, I'm not concerned, it's your country, and if there was a cover-up for political conveniency, then it's your problem, we've already got ours.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 10/05/2006 12:32 Comments || Top||

#6  If you want more on TWA800, go to newsmax.com and dig into their archives. I remember the NY FBI head was fishing that day and saw the missle attack. He was told to....ah....recuse himself.
He died on 9/11/01 in the World Trade Center.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 12:37 Comments || Top||

#7  Mike, read my comments. People don't call a radio station within minutes of such an avent to expand a conspiracy. These were eye witnesses. And, I might add, none of them were ever interviewed by the CIA. Also why the hell was the CIA involved ? Because Slick Willy didn't have enough pull in the FBI, but the CIA is anyone's whore.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 12:39 Comments || Top||

#8  I have to agree with James in that the CIA being involved with the TWA800 investigation is goofy pretty damn odd. Don't know anything about the FBI person or any of the other conspiracy stuff, just that the CIA getting in on this is seems bat shit crazy.

James, that bit about the FBI witness is interesting.
Posted by: Mike N. || 10/05/2006 12:57 Comments || Top||

#9  Well if Iraqi Ops did take out TWA 800 we should invade Iraq, remove Saddam from power, and put him on trial!!!!

Since that is already accomplished and TWA seems happy to take the heat for the fuel tank problem I see no value in the mental masturbation over this issue.
Posted by: rjschwarz || 10/05/2006 13:08 Comments || Top||

#10  James:

I was commenting on the article, not on your comments, which posted as I was typing. So, don't take it personal.

However, I will respond to you here.

I remember the TV reports the night it happened rather vividly, and I remember that the conventional wisdom in the days and weeks after the crash was that it was a terror attack--it was only later that we found out about the fuel tank issues with the older 747-100s.

People did see a flaming trail going upward, and it looked like a missile to them. I don't deny that. If I'd been there, I might have described it that way, too. However, what they actually saw was the wreckage, post-explosion, arcing up and over as it lost momentum.

The people who kept claiming it was a missile afterward (Mr. Hair-In-THe-Ears himself, Pierre Salinger) were blaming the USS Normandy for firing a Standard SAM accidentally or negligently. Problem is, that the Normandy wasn't close enough to engage with her SAMs, though a little thing like "facts" never stopped a conspiracy theorist before.

More important, in order for it to have been a missile, it would have had to have been a good-sized medium SAM. The plane was too high to be engaged with a shoulder-fired SAM like an SA-7, and a small SAM like that would be hard-pressed to splash a full-sized Boeing.

So in order for it to have been a missile, someone would have had to truck a full-sized military SAM system into the middle of Long Island Sound (you need a small freighter of several hundred tons standard displacement, at least, and that missile radar and launcher don't look like normal deck equipment!), illuminate the plane with its radar (without anyone using any sort of radio circuit or ATC radar noticing the RF interference), track it, fire (without ATC noticing the missile on radar), hit, and then get the hell out of Dodge without any of the approaching rescue forces seeing the ship or picking it up on surface search radar.

Now, in fairness, all that might be possible. What are the odds that the US government would piece this together and, having figured out that the Iraqi bad guys did it, that Slick Willie would decide, in an election year, to cover it up rather than go to war and gain an immediate 20% boost in his approval rating--and that the Clinton administration, which couldn't keep a simple afternoon blow job secret, would successfully cover it up for 10 years--and that the Bush administration, now in full possesison of the archives for six years, would go along with keeping it quiet even as it was marshalling facts in support of attacking Iraq--and that not one person from the FBI or NTSB would whisper a word of all this to a reporter in ten years?

Occam's razor, my friend. If there are two possible explanations for the same phenomenon, choose the simplest. The fuel tank explosion explains what happened, and doesn't require belief in a wild series of low-probability events.

Moreover, while I yield to no one (including you) in my loathing for Clinton, I can loathe him for what he did without attributing things to him he didn't do.
Posted by: Mike || 10/05/2006 13:17 Comments || Top||

#11  Another thing. The article claims Ramzi Yousef knew about the crash "within minutes"--even down to the flight number. While in his jail cell. In a federal prison. Before CNN and the networks.

Yeah, right.
Posted by: Mike || 10/05/2006 13:19 Comments || Top||

#12  SF2904, Not sure where you get off pounding Mous for being French. He is probably the biggest critic of French goverment, or lack of, that I know. He is also a long time contributor here at RB and generally a strong supporter of the US. Aside from his attraction to hairy leggid French girls and shapeshifters the overgeneralizing because he lives in France is unwarranted. Done

As far as the CIA being involved, someone must have thought it was an attack or they would never be interested in an aviation accident. If we uncoverd it was a shoot down and Clinton coverd it up, I would not be surprised at all.
Posted by: 49 Pan || 10/05/2006 13:26 Comments || Top||

#13  Have you ever seen that pretty semi-transparent flexible orange-colored film that satellite solar-cell arrays are mounted on? In the engineering trade, it's known as polyimide. The trade name Dupont uses for it is Kapton®. It is legendary for maintaining chemical and dimensional stability at temperatures and environmental extremes that would torture most conventional materials right out of existence. Put it in a sputter deposition reactor chamber, pump it down to near deep-space vacuum levels (where air molecules are bouncing around like ping-pong balls), and it is barely fazed. At such low pressures, most regular plastics would swell like a balloon due to physical out-gassing of volatile chemical components in the polymer's structure.

Now take that sheet of Kapton® and run it under a source powered up with 600VDC at 5 or 10 Amps with a several hundred Gauss planar magnetron containment field behind it. Most plastics cannot possibly stand the brief temperature excursion involved during exposure to the deposition source. Kapton® sails right through without blinking. Deposit chromium, copper, aluminum or any of a wide variety of materials onto the film and they miraculously stick to this wonder polymer. In addition, it has stupendous dielectric breakdown characteristics on top of outstanding chemical inertness in its resistance to acids, alkalis and enzymatic compounds, making it a coating of choice for pacemakers and other implanted devices.

Who would have guessed that Kapton® might exhibit undesirable aging characteristics over extended periods of service? Especially when you consider its sterling performance in outer space conditions involving hard gamma ray exposure, ultraviolet curing and extreme temperature cycling.

Here's a quote from a Naval Academy report on:

NONDESTRUCTIVE EVALUATION OF AROMATIC POLYIMIDE INSULATED AIRCRAFT AND SPACECRAFT WIRING

E. J. Tucholski, Physics Department, U. S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD, USA

Abstract: Spacecraft, and especially aircraft, often fly well past their original design lives and, therefore, the need to develop nondestructive evaluation procedures for inspection of vital structures in these craft is extremely important. One of the more recent problems is the degradation of wiring and wiring insulation.

There are significant electrical and fire hazards associated with aging and deteriorating wire insulation. Moreover, there are hundreds of miles of electrical wiring on typical commercial jet aircraft. Currently, the wires are inspected visually and only when there is an existent fault in the wiring or when modifications are made.
Over the last 10 years, several aviation accidents have been related to faulty wiring insulation.1 A study conducted at the behest of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to analyze aging wire insulation concluded that the most common wire condition irregularities involved heat damaged and burnt wire insulation, chafed or frayed wiring caused by vibration or excessive stresses, and cracked and delaminated insulation.2

Arcing was found to be a major contributor in electrical fires involving degraded polymer insulated aviation wiring. Arcing involves luminous discharge of electricity across the polymer insulation. The electrical discharge of an arc can have a temperature of several thousand degrees Celsius. Breaches in wire insulation can lead to a situation in which the conductor is exposed and results in arcing and short circuits. Scintillations, flashing and strong arcing have been observed.3 Scintillations and flashing (400 mJ to 8.25 J) caused substantial charring, discoloration, and erosion of wire insulation and conductors, but rarely did circuit breakers trip. Strong arcing (~5 kJ) occurred in tests involving aromatic polyimide (Kapton®) wiring. Non-contact arcing between conductors separated by insulation may require several kilovolts to initiate, but if separated by carbonized insulation, arcing can occur at normal operating voltages. A fault-current causes the carbon path to open and arcing is established.

References:
1 White, Tucholski, Green, “Nondestructive Testing of Aircraft and Spacecraft Wiring,” Materials Evaluation, v. 61, no. 12, Dec 2003, p1315.
2 Federal Aviation Administration, Intrusive Inspection Working Group, Christopher Smith, Chairman, Transport Aircraft Intrusive Inspection Project, 29 December 2000.
3 National Transportation Safety Board, “Aircraft Accident Report, In-flight Breakup Over the Atlantic Ocean, TWA Flight 800 Boeing 747-131, N93119 Near East Moriches, New York 17 July 1996,” NTSB/AAR-00/03, Washington, DC, 23 August 2000.


I tried to locate some images of polyimide insulation undergoing catastrophic dielectric breakdown. The pictures are very dramatic. What was previously one of the most inert and physically stable compounds imaginable suddenly explodes like fireworks.

That some idiots were allowed to run unhoused electrical wires through wing tanks where they would be immersed in aviation fuel is a matter for history to judge. I'll wager that, at the time, no one even could imagine that this wonder material would ever fail in such a destructive manner. Even with all of my training, I certainly couldn't.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 13:51 Comments || Top||

#14  Can anyone name any event that the federal government did not cover up ?
Only 9/11 because everyone watched it on TV.
The UFO crash in 1947 first reported as such, then as a weather balloon. The Kennedy assasination with one bullet ? Gulf of Tonkin ?
The one thing the gov does better than anything is coverups, and the Clinton admin was the best.

Working backward start here
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 13:53 Comments || Top||

#15  then here
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 13:55 Comments || Top||

#16  Not that my opinion means a whole heck of a lot..I personally beleive that TWA 800 was taken down by a terrorist missle. I have a Navy buddy that is a 747 driver, and he thought from the beginning that the NTSB report was a crock. The question to me is why not tell the truth? now? What is the conection between Nichols/McVeigh-the Philippines islamic terrorists-AQ-Saddam?

I dunno, but it makes my head hurt.
Posted by: anymouse || 10/05/2006 13:55 Comments || Top||

#17  There's no arguing with the facts.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 10/05/2006 13:56 Comments || Top||

#18  Jeepers, there's an hour of my life I'm not getting back.

PS: Great post, Mike.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 13:58 Comments || Top||

#19  What is the conection between Nichols/McVeigh-the Philippines islamic terrorists-AQ-Saddam?

That question has a lot more merit than the one currently under discussion.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 14:00 Comments || Top||

#20  here, here, here, and much more here and at numerous other sites.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 14:10 Comments || Top||

#21  Just read this. Read the whole letter. I am happy that there are more people with integrity in this great nation.
What good does it do to get these coverups to light ? That should be obvious.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 14:20 Comments || Top||

#22  run unhoused electrical wires through wing tanks where they would be immersed in aviation fuel

Being immersed in aviation fuel was not the problem, as I recall. It's the fuel-air mixture of an empty tank. The 747 doesn't need every tank full to fly the atlantic route. The centre tank was empty, or in the process of fuel reconfiguration when the explosion happened.
Posted by: Speart Flerong2904 || 10/05/2006 14:21 Comments || Top||

#23  Iraqi ops helped in Oklahoma City.
Posted by: anonymous2u || 10/05/2006 14:28 Comments || Top||

#24  Zenster, almost the entire federal government cooperated in a coverup ordered by a corrupt democrat who happened to be president at that time. I don't pay taxes to supply people who would destroy or alter evidence with a comfortable retirement. I want to phalk every one of them with a red hot rebar. If we can screw them with exposure of the TWA800 coverup, then I'm for it. Let's kill the democrat party. Then, we'll kill their bitch the MSM. Then, we wont have to counter every syllable uttered.
Believe me, it will be a better world for a while anyway.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 14:34 Comments || Top||

#25  Zenster: apreciate the data on polymide, and the kind words.

I don't intend to get personal with people who disagree; however, consider this. We all have a good laugh when the moonbats propound some wild-ass conspiracy theory about W or the Mossad or Haliburton--as we rightly should.

Why give them a parallel opportunity to mock us?
Posted by: Mike || 10/05/2006 14:35 Comments || Top||

#26  Being immersed in aviation fuel was not the problem, as I recall. It's the fuel-air mixture of an empty tank. The 747 doesn't need every tank full to fly the atlantic route. The centre tank was empty, or in the process of fuel reconfiguration when the explosion happened.

Excellent point, Speart Flerong2904. The fuel-air vapor phase is far more volatile than just the liquid itself. Still, were I to have designed the wiring harness, the conductors would have been run through gasket sealed metal conduits. 20/20 hindsight is such a wonderful thing.



Iraqi ops helped in Oklahoma City.

Well, that certainly explains everything!
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 14:41 Comments || Top||

#27  One last point and then I gotta get back to real life.

Assuming this was an Iraqi missile fired from a boat that somehow escaped detection (even by USS Normandy!), what is the advantage to the Clinton administration to cover it up? If it had been a blue-on-blue engagement by Normandy, there would be a motive to cover it up; but not an attack by a foreign country. If it's a foreign attack, he becomes a Wartime President and gets his precious Legacy secured as the avenger of TWA 800.

I mean, the man's a lowlife who only acts in his own self-interest--which means that you can count on him to act in his self-interest every time. Your theory assumes he acted against his self interest, and in a way that requires him and everyone in cahoots with him to execute the plan to perfection--or else.

Consider also: what would be the advantage to the Bush administration to play along? If I were Karl Rove and I knew that there was something in the archives this devastating to the opposition, I'd use it to maximum effect.
Posted by: Mike || 10/05/2006 14:49 Comments || Top||

#28  Zenster, almost the entire federal government cooperated in a coverup ordered by a corrupt democrat who happened to be president at that time.

Sorry, wxjames. For how they cherish self-aggrandizment, that's just a few too many (to understate things mildly) politicians to ever keep their mouths shut, regardless of political stripe or capacity. Our "entire federal government" can't even cooperate to give themselves a pay raise. One can hardly expect an entire administration to hush up such a travesty without a single leak. Monkeys shooting bottle rockets will fly out my ass sooner than that will ever happen.

Do you believe that Bush ordered a controlled demolition of the World Trade Center Towers? Both theories are of approximately equal validity.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 14:53 Comments || Top||

#29  wx, good luck rebuilding the cred.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 10/05/2006 14:56 Comments || Top||

#30  Come back from the edge of the abyss, wxjames. Those are moonbats down there.
Posted by: mcsegeek1 || 10/05/2006 15:07 Comments || Top||

#31  ...and they are plump and ugly!
Posted by: Besoeker || 10/05/2006 15:09 Comments || Top||

#32  #14 wx: "The UFO crash in 1947"

You lose me right there. Anythimg you say after that is worthless.

Yeesh.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 10/05/2006 15:16 Comments || Top||

#33  Actually, Barb, they lost me at "WND", lol! Used to read it until it became such a conspiracy theory and trying to be prophets.
Posted by: BA || 10/05/2006 15:28 Comments || Top||

#34  I'm very suspicious of the "official" explanations of TWA 800. There's a plethora of circumstantial evidence pointing to something other than an electrical or mechanical failure. That said, "official" explanations may indeed be accurate although many prominant public figures publically associate TWA 800 with terrorist attacks on America.

Indeed, I've heard several politicians mention TWA 800 when listing terrorist attacks on America. I know John Kerry and Katie Couric both have listed TWA 800 as a terrorist act. In my mind, there is plenty of room to doubt official explanations.
Posted by: Lanny Ddub || 10/05/2006 16:16 Comments || Top||

#35  The only conspiracy theory not so far mentioned is the time the Vice President conspired with the commanding general of the US Army (who was also a spy in the pay of Spain) to split the US in half and conquer Mexico. That really happened.
Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 || 10/05/2006 16:17 Comments || Top||

#36  Can anyone name any event that the federal government did not cover up ?

My birth.

Posted by: Rob Crawford || 10/05/2006 16:21 Comments || Top||

#37  Rob, how do we know that you are not in fact a CIA team spoofing your posts, as part of the vast gov't conspiracy to cover up the fact that you were not really born ?

Probably for reasons related to UFOs and the Illuminati, or something...wxjames, a little help here please ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H. || 10/05/2006 16:27 Comments || Top||

#38  The only conspiracy theory not so far mentioned is...

What about the conspriacy to make a duplicate key for the locker where the strawberries were kept? I proves with geometric logic that...
Posted by: Philipp Queeg || 10/05/2006 16:36 Comments || Top||

#39  Gah, I hestitate to step into this mess, but I have to share one little experience as it directly relates to this.

Way back when, I was OOD during an exercise where the nearby Aegis was going to launch an SM-1 or 2 on a drone target.

Other than the initial flame coming out of the vertical launcher, that SAM was pretty damn invisible once it got airborne, and I was on a deck 2 miles away. So, I personally take the stories about the "column of flame" with a municipal department of transportation dumptruck of road salt.

One man's pathetic recollection from his glory days in the Navy. Sob.
Posted by: Dreadnought || 10/05/2006 17:00 Comments || Top||

#40  Let me just say in behalf of the Iraqi spies that are being blamed for this. A country does not just commit an act of war without taking credit for it (even Al Queda took credit for their attacks for the sake of recruiting). Not unless the act is intended to lay blame on someone else or leave the target vunerable for something in the future.

So if Iraq was behind this the only value would seem to be if they thought it might get Uncle Sam pissed at someone else, say the Saudis or Iranians. As far as I know there were no waves in that direction.
Posted by: rjschwarz || 10/05/2006 17:10 Comments || Top||

#41  that SAM was pretty damn invisible once it got airborne

Can't argue with that.

I'd say it would be pretty damn hard to bring down a 747 at altitude with anything shoulder fired. Remember the DHL A300 over Baghdad? Took the Russians two tries to bring down KAL007 (radar guided).
Posted by: Speart Flerong2904 || 10/05/2006 17:21 Comments || Top||

#42  Were there any j000000s on the flight? Hmmmm?
Posted by: Thoth || 10/05/2006 17:40 Comments || Top||

#43 

wop wop wop
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 17:56 Comments || Top||

#44  I said, in 1947, they first reported a UFO crash, then it was a weather balloon.
Click on 'this' on my # 21.
A letter from one Admiral Donaldson to TWA and Boeing explaining the coverup and the various known omitted evidences.
Over 100 eyewitnesses non questioned, but trashed instead. I would say that a million dollar reward would blow the lid off this clusterfuck coverup. I'm willing to donate $100.
Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 18:11 Comments || Top||

#45 
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 18:19 Comments || Top||

#46  Like Dreadnaught said, even those missles big enough to bring down a 747 burn their fuel in the first 30 seconds of flight. They don't leave a trail of fire. Ask the pilots who flew over Vietnam.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 10/05/2006 18:21 Comments || Top||

#47  It's time to deal with the Ambrose Bierce thingy again. Just disappeared? How could the most famous journalist in America just disappear? The Mexican Revolution was just a convenient side show for the offing of Americans Main Man. It's time to drag the Martian Secret Service from behind the curtain.
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 18:23 Comments || Top||

#48  I recall a studio interview with an expert who had a piece of Kapton with him. The pretty boy anchor literally flinched shen he saw it and could not contain his fear at being near an inert object which, under the circumstances Zenster described, contributed to bringing down a jumbo jet. It was pretty funny.
Posted by: JAB || 10/05/2006 19:43 Comments || Top||

#49  That would be funny, if it weren't so damned pathetic, JAB. The poor little talking head would probably faint if confronted with an inanimate carbon rod.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 19:57 Comments || Top||

#50  What kind of carbon rod? Graphite encased in fibres of cellulose (40%–50%) and hemicellulose (15%–25%) held together by lignin (15%–30%) with an optional non-lead-based paint layer?

Perhaps you're thinking of a rather 'special' rod with an atomic arrangement of carbon atoms in a tetrahedral form? - now that *would* be special.

Or maybe the nanotube variety (but then the TH wouldn't even know it was there I guess...)

It may seem pedantic, but it's important to know these things...
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 10/05/2006 20:30 Comments || Top||

#51 
Dreadnought: One man's pathetic recollection from his glory days in the Navy. Sob.

Philipp Queeg: What about the conspriacy to make a duplicate key for the locker where the strawberries were kept? I proves with geometric logic that...


Lanny Ddub: Indeed, I've heard several politicians mention TWA 800 when listing terrorist attacks on America. I know John Kerry and Katie Couric both have listed TWA 800 as a terrorist act. In my mind, there is plenty of room to doubt official explanations.

»:-)
Posted by: RD || 10/05/2006 20:53 Comments || Top||

#52  Tony, old bean, you're quite obviously not getting your RDA of "The Simpsons".
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 21:23 Comments || Top||

#53  Believing in vast conspiracies is easier -- and for some, more comforting -- than approaching the world as an adult.
Posted by: Rob Crawford || 10/05/2006 21:35 Comments || Top||

#54  Don't come the raw prawn with me, RC! We all know it's a lot easier to believe in Santa Claus than ever having to imagine what must be involved with going out and actually working at a job in order make all those holiday presents appear under the tree.
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 21:57 Comments || Top||

#55  Lol, "raw prawn" - that's one I haven't heard before.

Here's a pretty nifty article about the conspiracy nuts... It's authoritative, entertaining, informative, and boggling.
Posted by: .com || 10/05/2006 22:03 Comments || Top||

#56  Let's see, Tony.... that would be an old-fashioned wooden pencil, a diamond (hopeful large, extraordinarily clear and colourless, and beautifully set in a smashing bit of jewelry) and, as you said, an invisible nanotube. Yes?
Posted by: trailing wife || 10/05/2006 22:06 Comments || Top||

#57  For conspiracy I present the British East India Company Flag Flag images of East India Co.

Including these!

Top that conspiracy!


Posted by: 3dc || 10/05/2006 22:14 Comments || Top||

#58  Re: The unexplained loss of TWA Flight 800

Cmdr. William S. Donaldson, III - USN, Ret.

Aviation Mishap Analyst

P.O. Box 90, Clements, Maryland 20624



April 5, 1999

Mr. Philip M. Condit

The Boeing Company

P.O. Box 3707, Mail Code 10-10

Seattle, WA 98124-2207



Mr. Gerald L. Gitner

Trans World Airlines

One City Center

515 North Sixth St.

St. Louis, MO 63101



Re: The unexplained loss of TWA Flight 800

Gentlemen,

Over the last four months our investigation into the loss of TWA Flight 800 has produced information far surpassing that contained in our July 20, 1998 Interim Report to Congress. We can now prove, before a jury or other independent fact-finding body, that the aircraft was shot down. We can also explain why the Administration covered it up and expose some of the methods they
employed to do so.





Posted by: wxjames || 10/05/2006 23:18 Comments || Top||

#59  The link to the wire arc-tracking is here
http://members.aol.com/papcecst/altrof.html

Judge for yourself.
Posted by: logi_cal || 10/05/2006 23:53 Comments || Top||

#60  Please consider, wxjames, that the past tense of "cred" is "crud".
Posted by: Zenster || 10/05/2006 23:55 Comments || Top||

#61  Judge for yourself....

Okay.


Nope.
Posted by: Shipman || 10/05/2006 23:58 Comments || Top||


Good morning...
Paris Hilton - Shanna Moakler Punch-outAfghanistan Arrests 17 Would-Be BombersChina tells North Korea to step back from brinkFrance Forces Thousands of Immigrants to LeaveWest convinced Waziristan deal is anti-Taliban: MusharrafAlmost 260, including 11 foreign fighters, killed or caught north-east BaghdadEarly Elections Expected in Palestine
Posted by: Fred || 10/05/2006 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Dresses, why?
Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 10/05/2006 2:36 Comments || Top||

#2  Joan? Issat you?
Posted by: GORT || 10/05/2006 8:28 Comments || Top||

#3  A comparison between Paris Hilton and this young lady might be instructive.

Al
Posted by: Frozen Al || 10/05/2006 11:11 Comments || Top||

#4  Dhimmitude isn't pretty.
Posted by: Icerigger || 10/05/2006 12:03 Comments || Top||

#5  not cursor friendly? Fred Que?
Posted by: RD stringer for al-Reuters || 10/05/2006 12:34 Comments || Top||

#6  Yay! The nymphs are back!
Posted by: Dar || 10/05/2006 12:51 Comments || Top||



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