#5
Since when is a BBC news crew in a war zone considered "civilian"? They're a belligerent with interests and will attempt to influence the outcome of the conflict with their slanted reporting.
#6
This is from Gori, yesterday, during Saakashvili's tour - capture from a video clip.
The look of terror on his face was shocking. Quite understandable, he is human like the rest of us, but it is not something people like to see in their leaders. It will hurt him politically I suspect.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 8:22 Comments ||
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#7
Is it terror or just tired and weary?
I know I have looked that bad after an all nighter..
Update #7 (current as of 4:30 p.m., Tuesday, August 12, 2008)
Analysis
Russia has announced a unilateral ceasefire because its operations have achieved their aims.
Medvedev and Sarkozy have drafted a document that encapsulates all of Russias demands in return for a ceasefirebut not a final settlement, which must still be negotiated. Sarkozy is discussing that deal with Saakashvili right now.
So the situation on the ground now legally is that there are two unilateral ceasefires, although the Georgians claim that Russian forces continue their attacks, and the Russian military has laid the predicate for those and further attacks in public statements today. The Russian military has also made plain that if a formal ceasefire agreement is not reached, then Russian forces will not withdraw from Ossetia or Abkhazia.
The Russian military has clearly stated that the objective of its operations was to reduce Georgias overall military capability so that Georgia could not again conduct an operation similar to the one it launched in South Ossetia, and for that reason has been attacking targets throughout Georgia.
Russian leaders repeatedly say that they will not deal with Saakashvili.
The Russian Attorney General has announced that Russian law permits the trial of Saakashvili for crimes under the Russian Federation Criminal Code.
The Russian Foreign Minister has called for an investigation of Georgian war crimes and the punishment of those ultimately responsible by international tribunals, and has said that Russian citizens victimized by Georgians will be bringing individual actions in appropriate European human rights courts.
The Russian aim is to force Saakashvili from power, preferably using international legal maneuvers (a la Milosevic), but possibly using Russian law instead or in addition.
The Russians are maintaining their excessive forces in South Ossetia, and continuing to control Georgias airspace and conduct periodic attacks in a flagrant effort to compel an immediate Georgian agreement to their armistice terms, conveyed by Sarkozy.
Russia will not permit South Ossetia and Abkhazia to return to Georgian control, and will move one way or the other to have their independence recognized, and probably soon.
#1
Why do I feel like there was something more we could have done there? Nothing rational comes to mind, but it seems like we emboldened them towards russia and didn't back them up when it counted.
#2
Now they have an excuse to heavily fortify the South Black Sea oil area and their 2 satellites, and they tested their new regular army without internal political problems because they did it quick.
We had no pressure points to press this time.
It's not over yet but things could be worse at this moment. Next time they will have the upper hand in a Black Sea conflict.
#3
I don't know what we could have done. I understand the desire to help the Georgians, but their proximity to Russia, the fact that they're otherwise surrounded by nasty neighbors, that the Black Sea access could be denied in a heartbeat by the Turks, and that air rights into Georgia are iffy, makes it unclear to me how we could help them directly.
That said, in the months ahead I suspect we'll be doing a fair bit to rebuild their military and help their country economically.
One more point: as the article by Robert Kaplan that I posted earlier makes clear, the region is a hornet's nest of different ethnic and linguistic groups. The Georgians would be smart to let the Ossetians (who speak a different language) and the Abkazians (ditto) go, and focus on building their own country. Trying to reincorporate these 'autonomous' regions into their country will be the death of them.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/12/2008 20:34 Comments ||
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Moscow will agree to peace with Georgia if it removes its troops far beyond the borders of South Ossetia and signs a legally binding promise not to attack it, Russia's foreign minister said on Tuesday.
Kremlin leader Dmitry Medvedev and French President Nicolas Sarkozy -- in Moscow to mediate -- agreed on principles aimed at putting a stop to five days of conflict over Georgia's tiny separatist province. They included a ceasefire, a pledge to renounce force, free passage for humanitarian aid and the withdrawal of troops to their bases. The need to determine the future status of South Ossetia, which seeks full independence, was also mentioned.
"These principles either reflect Russia's demands to the Georgian leadership or its intentions concerning the pace and aims of its peacekeeping operation in South Ossetia," Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters after they were announced.
Lavrov made it clear that Moscow sought tough terms -- the non-use of force and a troop pullout were core demands, he said.
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's pledge not to attack the province, made after talks with the French and Finnish foreign ministers in Tbilisi on Monday, was not enough, Lavrov added. "So far this has only been fixed in an informal political form," he said. "It requires the signing of a legally binding treaty on the non-use of force. This is a key point."
Georgian troops, which pushed into South Ossetia to restore Tbilisi's control after 16 years of self-proclaimed independence, should leave the border zone, he added. "This is an absolutely binding condition that the Georgian side is to pull back its forces not only from South Ossetia, but also from other areas of Georgia from which they can shell and bomb the region," Lavrov said.
Lavrov was confident that Sarkozy, who flew to Tbilisi in the evening, would persuade Saakashvili to back the plan.
But he said Russia, which ordered its troops in the province to halt fire on Tuesday, was ready to be firm. When asked what would happen if Georgia failed to back the plan, Lavrov said: "We will be forced to take other measures to prevent any repetition of the situation that emerged because of the outrageous Georgian aggression."
#1
is the non use of force binding on the S ossetians as well?
BTW :
Wife of Georgian President leaves Ukraine for Tbilisi
Sandra Saakashvili, the Georgian first lady, has left Ukraine for Tbilisi together with European leaders on Tuesday.
According to the President`s press-office, S.Saakashvili arrived in Ukraine with her children from Beijing. The children remained in the Crimea on vacation, and the wife of the Georgian President left for Tbilisi together with heads of democratic European states.
#2
Shouldn't this apply to the Russians in Chechnya as well?
Posted by: abu Chuck al Ameriki ||
08/12/2008 17:44 Comments ||
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#3
DEBKA > RUSSIA MASSES NAVAL FORCES NEAR GEORGIA'S THIRD SENSITIVE REGION IN AJARIA [Batumi Russ NavBase near Georg border wid SW Turkey]???; + RUSSIA ENDS ITS MILITARY OPERATIONS IN GEORGIA LEAVING BREAKAWAY REGIONS FREE TO ACT.
#1
INTERFAX/TOPIX > RUSSIA had warned Ukraine it will NOT tolerate any impediment/obstruction by Ukraine of Black Seas Fleet NAVOPS agz Georgia vv the SEVASTOPAL NAVAL BASE.
While Russian President Dimitry Medvedev might have called a halt to operations he deliberately left open the possibility of combat by allowing his forces to "defend themselves" from Georgian armed resistance.
In characteristically blunt style, Russia also used a show of military force to warn Georgia against taking strategic advantage of Moscow's decision to end hostilities. Within an hour of the order to halt action, the Daily Telegraph witnessed Russian helicopter gunships launch missile strikes deep inside undisputed Georgian territory.
The attacks, which were officially denied in Moscow, may have been intended to dissuade Georgian troops from regrouping near the border of South Ossetia after their chaotic retreat on Monday evening. In one assault, three attack helicopters swooped through a valley 25 miles south of the capital city Tbilisi. Hovering above a ridge, they fired nine rockets before disappearing into the distance, their rotors beating rhythmically.
Georgia's foreign ministry said that two villages had come under attack, but the claim could not be independently verified.
The attacks underlined that Russia had total control of South Ossetia just five days after invading to support the Moscow-backed rebels that have held the secessionist region since 1992. They also demonstrated that Russia was determined to stop Georgian troops re-entering a buffer zone 15 miles from the Ossetian frontier that was effectively created after Georgia's army abandoned the strategic town of Gori without firing a shot.
It is possible that the Russians will continue to attack Georgian military hardware over the coming days to ensure its armed forces are irreversibly weakened. Any tanks, artillery, aircraft or armoured vehicles caught in the open will be eliminated as the Russians attempt to wear down Georgia's future military capability.
As Hezbollah has demonstrated in Lebanon, there is no such thing as 'irreversible' weakening ...
Scores of the country's 128 T72 tanks, 139 armoured personnel carriers and 95 artillery pieces have been destroyed. In addition, probably all seven of Georgia's Frogfoot aircraft have already been lost along with military training facilities.
The campaign is likely to resemble the closing days of the Israeli incursion into south Lebanon two years ago when heavy air and artillery attacks aimed at weakening Hizbollah's military force. However with Iranian help Hizbollah is now fully re-armed and it is likely that Georgia will rebuild its stock of armaments rapidly, probably buying Soviet-era equipment from Ukraine.
While America has provided training for Georgian troops it is unlikely it will take the political risk of infuriating the Russians by selling sophisticated arms to its neighbours. For the moment, however, Georgia's armed forces have been crushed and military morale is visibly poor.
As if to emphasize its overwhelming superiority, Russian artillery shelled the nearly deserted town of Gori for the first time in the conflict yesterday morning even though it had been abandoned by the Georgian army. The artillery barrage -- the first against Gori since the five-day conflict -- suggested that, despite denials in Moscow, Russian ground troops had advanced to within a few miles of the town.
The attacks, which seemed to be aimed at administrative buildings in Gori, still managed to inflict casualties even though only a few elderly civilians had remained behind.
A Dutch journalist was killed and another wounded after a fragmentation shell exploded outside a press centre where western reporters in Gori, including The Daily Telegraph, have been based since the conflict began. An Israeli reporter was also in a serious condition after being shot in the chest and shoulder. Russian fire has now claimed the lives of three reporters in the past three days.
Despite claims by the Georgian government, there was no sign of Russian ground troops in the town, although the artillery assault suggested that they were probably only about two miles from the outskirts.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 14:45 ||
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Known to friends as "Misha" the cosmopolitan 40-year-old is unquestionably brilliant, speaks half a dozen languages and has a Dutch wife he met in Paris.
But Mr Saakashvili has handed Russia a victory it could scarcely have dreamed of - his decision to invade South Ossetia has left his army humiliated and he could soon be fighting for his political life with no prospect of any meaningful help from his Western allies.
How did he make such a catastrophic blunder?
The answer appears to lie in Mr Saakashvili's own character. While supporters praise him as a passionate and patriotic leader, whose drive and energy have transformed Georgia, critics say he is bombastic, impulsive and confrontational and his suave exterior hides a burning nationalist pride.
His abject defeat will hurt further still because it means the loss of long personal battle with Vladimir Putin.
A few years ago a document titled Mikheil Saakashvili: A Psychological Study, origin unknown, was circulated among Western journalists.
The now discredited paper claimed Mr Saakashvili's behaviour was narcissistic, paranoid, egocentric and hysterical and showed "psychiatric disturbances".
There is no doubt that Russia has been trying to undermine Mr Saakashvili for years.
According to diplomatic sources Russia stepped up its campaign to provoke him into a rash move in South Ossetia or Abkhazia - the two breakaway provinces of Georgia - over the last two weeks. There were occasional clashes and Russian jets entered Georgian airspace.
Mr Putin, it seems, knew just which buttons to push and Mr Saakashvili took the bait.
Friends of Mr Saakashvili claim he is neither a nationalist hothead, nor a political ingenue, and has instead simply been naive.
Scott Horton, an expert on the region who taught the Georgian president at Columbia University, New York in the 1990s, told the Daily Telegraph: "He's not a hothead, that's Russian propaganda. That's the way they would like to see him portrayed in the West.
"But I think it was a mistake for him to act as he did and the better policy would have been to show restraint. Did he make a tactical blunder? The answer is almost certainly yes, but I don't think it was more than a tactical blunder.
"I think he knew the Russians were looking for an opportunity or a pretext to seize South Ossetia and Abkhazia. He felt he had a last opportunity to consolidate South Ossetia because the Russian plan was already laid."
Mr Saakashvili often speaks fondly of his time in the US, reminiscing about attending New York Knicks basketball games and walking in Central Park.
He later worked for New York law firm Patterson Belknap Webb and Tyler as an associate advising clients investing in the former Soviet Union.
Mr Horton said: "He was a quite amazingly polished figure even then, just an incredible polyglot, and also had great charm and facility with dealing with people.
"He was very political and he was a strong advocate of open society, democracy free market economics but I wouldn't say he was a nationalist. He was very concerned about Georgia and what was going to happen to Georgia."
But critics say Mr Saakashvili grew into a populist demagogue with a ruthless lust for power after he returned to Georgia in October 2000 as justice minister under the then president Eduard Shevardnadze, who had met him in New York.
He ousted his former mentor in the bloodless Rose Revolution of 2003 and was greeted by the West as a hero who would spread democracy and freedom in the region. After becoming Europe's youngest president he moved his country toward membership of Nato, led a successful crusade against corruption and saw Georgia praised globally as a beacon of democracy.
But now his critics will say his impetuousness triggered a crisis of Cold War proportions.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 14:43 ||
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#1
i remember 1979.
We were told there was nothing we could do. What we did do, boycott the olympics and institute draft registration, was laughable and was laughed at.
10 years later the berlin wall fell.
We NEVER manage to respond QUICKLY. What we do takes the slow gelling of time.
The French President, Nicolas Sarkozy, is taking Russia's peace terms to Georgia, after Moscow achieved a crushing victory in a five-day war.
In addition to six points proposed by European leaders, Russia wants Georgia to agree to further measures which would in effect guarantee Moscow's capture of the two breakaway Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Russia wants a buffer zone around these enclaves, from which all Georgian forces will be excluded, and is demanding that Georgia give a signed pledge never to use force in the regions again.
With his Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner, Mr Sarkozy will now place these terms before President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia. After suffering five days of Russian onslaught, Georgia's beleaguered leader may have little choice but to agree.
Speaking at a joint news conference with Mr Sarkozy, the Russian President, Dmitry Medvedev, insisted his forces would remain in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. "That has been the case and that will continue to be the case," Mr Medvedev said.
President Medvedev said the EU peace plan contained "good principles to settle the problem," but that Russia would also add proposals and that it was "up to Georgia now". He said that President Saakashvili, whom he described as a "lunatic," had lied about his side's respect for a ceasefire during the conflict.
"You know, lunatics' difference from other people is that when they smell blood it is very difficult to stop them. So you have to use surgery," President Medvedev said.
Asked about the progress of the peace plan, President Sarkozy said: "The night is young. We are not at peace yet but we are at a stage of temporary cessation of hostilities, which is certainly significant." He added that the EU could provide peacekeepers to be stationed in South Ossetia if all sides agreed.
President Saakhashvili said that he would continue to regard Russian troops in the breakaway states as occupying forces. He said Georgia would refuse to be "broken to pieces" under any agreement. Georgia also disclosed that it had filed a lawsuit against Russia at the International Court of Justice for ethnic cleansing.
"Today Georgian ambassador to the Netherlands filed a law suit to the International Court of Justice," the secretary of Georgia's Security Council, Kakha Lomaia, said, "because of ethnic cleansing conducted in Georgia by Russia in 1993 to 2008."
Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, said that he had also been contacted about the conflict, and may launch a preliminary investigation.
The news conference came shortly after Russian forces continued to shell the strategically important Georgian town of Gori, in an attack representing a continuation of Moscow's military offensive, even after President Medvedev had ordered a cessation to hostilities.
The artillery barrage the first against Gori since the five-day conflict began suggested that, despite denials in Moscow, Russian ground troops had advanced into undisputed Georgian territory from South Ossetia. Gori, a town of about 70,000 people that was the birth place of Stalin, lies 15 miles south of Georgia's internal border with the breakaway region.
A Dutch journalist was killed and another wounded after a fragmentation shell exploded outside a press centre where western reporters in Gori, including reporters for The Daily Telegraph, have based themselves since the conflict began.
The explosion shattered windows and embedded walls in neighbouring buildings with shrapnel. It also destroyed the sole shop that had remained open in Gori in order to provide reporters with food and drink.
Russian shells also struck apartment blocks in the main square in an apparent attempt to destroy Gori's town hall. Only one elderly woman was living in the block as all her neighbours fled yesterday when the Georgian military abandoned the town without firing a shot during a chaotic retreat to the capital Tbilisi.
Other buildings on the outskirts of the town were also damaged or destroyed in the assault, which witnesses said killed at least six people. But, contrary to Georgian government claims, there were no Russian ground troops in the town.
Earlier President Medvedev had announced: "I have taken the decision to end the operation to force Georgian authorities into peace," said President Medvedev, in a televised meeting. "The security of our peacekeepers and civilians has been restored. The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganised."
However, over half an hour after Mr Medvedev gave his ceasefire order, The Daily Telegraph saw three Russian helicopters fire nine missiles at targets 25 miles north of Tbilisi. It was not immediately clear what they were shooting at.
"Despite the Russian president's claims earlier this morning that military operations against Georgia have been suspended, at this moment, Russian fighter jets are bombarding two Georgian villages outside South Ossetia," the Georgian government said.
Eduard Kokoity, the leader of the South Ossetian separatist movement, said that following the conflict he would redouble his efforts to have his province unified with the Russian region of North Ossetia. He said: "I would like to point out again that we are a small, divided people. This is a big humanitarian problem and of course we will strive for unification with North Ossetia."
Thousands of civilians have died in the conflict, which was sparked by Russia's response to a Georgian grab for South Ossetia last week, while 100,000 are now thought to have been displaced. Plane loads of medical supplies and aid are being flown into Tblisi by international agencies including the Red Cross, while the US and several European countries have pledged to provide humanitarian and economic aid to prevent the conflict from destabilising Georgia furthe
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 14:36 ||
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#1
However, over half an hour after Mr Medvedev gave his ceasefire order, The Daily Telegraph saw three Russian helicopters fire nine missiles at targets 25 miles north of Tbilisi. It was not immediately clear what they were shooting at.
You know, lunatics' difference from other people is that when they smell blood it is very difficult to stop them. So you have to use surgery," President Medvedev said.
#3
A shell landed a few feet from the massive statue of Stalin but it is untouched. Likewise the marble monument that covers the hut where he was born.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 16:56 Comments ||
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#4
IMO RUSSIA's "VICTORY" AGZ GEORGIA IS PYRRHIC.My instincets are also telling me that RUSSIA IS "HEDGING" AGZ THE DAY NUCLEAR ISLAMISM ANDOR STRONG CHINA EFFEC REDRAWS THE MAP OF ASIA AS WELL. Prob safe to also argue as per any PAN-REGION CONSEQUENCES VV GLOBAL WARMING.
Again, RUSSIA IMO fears its ability to long withstand any new destabilization and breakup of post-USSR RUSSIA, espec after Radical Islam [States + Militants-Terr groups]+ its Jihad goes full-monty NUKULAR. MUSLIM SOUTH OSSETIA [Georgia] + MUSLIM NORTH OSSETIA [Russia] = RUSS INVERSELY? KEEPING ITS ENEMIES CLOSE AND ITS FRIENDS CLOSER??? This basically leaves Russ free to focus on the looming Islamist threat to CAUCASIA, CHINA + RUSS FAR EAST [North Asia] VV PAKLAND, AFGHANISTAN, MONGOLIA + UIGHURS. RUSS FEARS NUCLEAR "YOUNG TURK" RADICAL ISLAMISM IN CENTRAL ASIA, + ITS OWN TRADITIONAL/HISTORICAL FEARS OF CHINA AS PER [modernizing]CHINESE HEGEMONIC AMBITIONS = INTER-NATION COMPETITION IN ASIA-PACIFIC.
* TOPIX > RUSSIAN MARKETS COLLAPSE ON NEWS OF SOUTH OSSETIAN CONFLICT.
HOWEVER, RUSS DEFENSIVE MILOPS AGZ RADICAL ISLAM IN CHECHNYA + OTHERS IS USING UP THE RUSS MILITARY's POST-SOVIET MIL ASSETS, MANPOWER $$$ + MATERIEL, WHICH RUSS CAN'T USE AS "HEDGE" AGZ THE US-NATO OR PAN-ASIAN COMPETITORS [read - CHINA], ETC. VV "THE GREAT GAME" OF GEOPOL.
Where MANCHU CHINA was once belabeled the "SICK MAN OF ASIA" at the turn of the 20th century = BOXER REBELLION [BTW > History Channel], RUSSIA COVERTLY FEARS BECOM THE NEW SAME AS CHIN GEOPOL MILPOL POWERS SLOWLY IMPROVES AND STRENGTHENS.
#5
"Tis NOT the first time in RUSH LIMBAUGH's
"HISTOIRE" that TSARIST RUSSIA, USSR, and even Post-Cold War RUSSIA had used MILITARY AGGRESSION AS COVER FOR PERCEIVED NATIONAL/STRATEGIC WEAKNESS AND FEAR. Not the first, nor the last, for Russ + many other World States, includ the USA.
The State Department on Tuesday advised all U.S. citizens to leave Georgia due to Russia's continued bombings of civilian and military targets in the country.
The department also said in a travel alert that U.S. citizens should refrain from travel to Georgia if there is no special need to do so. "In light of the continued aerial bombings of civilian and military targets in several areas of the country, the Department of State warns U.S. citizens to defer non-essential travel to Georgia and recommends that all U.S. citizens depart Georgia," it said.
The alert came after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and French President Nicolas Sarkozy agreed Tuesday that both Russian and Georgian troops will withdraw to their pre-conflict positions to halt the fighting in the breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.
#1
KOMMERSANT > US MILITARY INSTRUCTORS [est.1000] COMMAND HIRELINGS IN GEORGIA [est. 2500-3000, mostly Baltic-EastEuro], to fight agz Russia and South Ossetia???
#2
OOPSIES, forgot to add RENSE > MOSCOW NEWS MONTHLY - RUSSIAN TOP BRASS REITERATES RUSSIA's RIGHT TO PREEMPTIVE STRIKE ["Preventive" Conventional-NUCLEAR Strike], agz US GMD AS OVER TIME TECNOLOGICAL ADVANCES WILL RENDER CONTEMPORARY MISSLE DEFENSE SYSTEMS, CONCEPTS, AND STRATEGIES, ETC. OBSOLETE, LEAVING THE WHOLE OF RUSS TERRITORY VULNERABLE.
* Extension of the PUTIN DOCTRINE > where RUSS reserves the unilateral, sovereign, and unconditional , etc right to use NUCLEAR WEAPONS in its own national defense, IN FULL SPECTRUM AND AGZ ANY AND ALL COMERS, ESPEC RADICAL TERROR GROUPS AND BASES LOCATED IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES, AND IFF NECESSARY WITHOUT NEED OF CONSENT.
*REDDIT > GORBACHEV: US STRIKES OUT IN CAUCASUS + US MADE A MAJOR STRATEGIC BLUNDER IN DECLARING CAUCASUS AS WITHIN ITS SPHERE OF INTEREST AND THEN FAILING TO MIL ASSIST GEORGIA.
The Georgian security council says it has filed a lawsuit in the International Court of Justice for alleged ethnic cleansing. Council chief Alexander Lomaia told The Associated Press that Georgia made the filing Tuesday with the international court. He gave no other details of the lawsuit.
Russian officials have accused Georgia of committing genocide by launching an offensive last week to try to retake control of the breakaway province of South Ossetia. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, meanwhile, accused Russian forces Monday of cleansing another breakaway province, Abkhazia, of ethnic Georgians.
The strategic Kulevi oil terminal near Georgia's Black Sea port city of Poti is under threat from Russian attacks, Georgian National Security Council Secretary Alexander Lomaia told AFP Tuesday.
"The Russian military is posing a direct threat to the Kulevi oil terminal, the property of the Azerbaijani oil company SOCAR. They have demanded terminal staff evacuate as Russians are preparing to bomb the nearby forest, claiming that Georgian troops are hidden there," he said.
"The president of Azerbaijan, Mr. (Ilham) Aliyev, is currently trying to convince the Russian leadership to prevent this barbaric act from happening."
#1
Hmmm. Oil prices down 23%. Russia a major oil exporter. Trash this terminal/pipeline and take 1 MMBO/D of non-Russian oil out of the world market place. What happens to prices for Russian oil? Not likely the driving factor of the Georgian invasion, but quite a fringe benefit.
#3
Depends on what you break. Or catch on fire. A pipeline, just a few days. A loading dock, maybe months. Not to mention cleaning up a mess so you can even start to work. Also depends on not shooting the workers.
Civil.ge, the Georgian news site, is "under permanent [cyber] attack." So they've switched their operations to one of Google's Blogspot domains, to keep the information flowing about what's going on in their country.
The attacks against Civil.ge are part of a larger set of online assaults, originating in Russia, against Georgian websites.
"In a sense," notes Jim Stogdill, "they must be saying 'we can't keep our sites up, but we don't think [Russian hackers] can take down Blogspot, given Google's much better infrastructure and ability to defend it.'"
"Another interesting aspect is seeing how certain countries are what I call 'cyberlocked,'" cybersecurity veteran Richard Bejtlich tells Danger Room. "We know a land-locked country has no access to the sea. Countries like .ge [Georgia] might rely too heavily on one or a handful of connections, potentially through hostile countries (eg, .ru [Russia]), for their physical connectivity. As a result, an adversary can control their network access to the outside world. A diagram from the Packet Clearing House, shows Georgia's network dilemma.
Meanwhile, Estonia (once the victim of Russian-based hackers) is now hosting Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. And "in a historic first, Estonia is sending cyberdefense advisors to Georgia," Network World observes.
UPDATE: Two Azerbaijani media outlets claim they're under assault, too. And some Russian sites are getting hit, in what appears to be a bit of cyber-payback.
#2
"Foreign Secretary David Miliband used blunter terms, saying Russia's "aggression" in Georgia was incompatible with its desire to join the World Trade Organization and its status as a major energy supplier to Europe.
Brown said: "It's international pressure in these last few days from many countries that has now brought this immediate ceasefire that's now shared by Georgia and Russia."
MOSCOW: Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks that took Russian forces deep into its small U.S.-allied neighbor in the Caucasus.
Medvedev said on national television that the military had punished Georgia enough for its attack on South Ossetia. Georgia launched an offensive late Thursday to regain control over the separatist Georgian province, which has close ties to Russia. "The security of our peacekeepers and civilians has been restored," Medvedev said. "The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized."
The Russian president, however, said he ordered the military to defend itself and quell any signs of Georgian resistance. "If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," he told his defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy, just arrived in Moscow carrying Western demands for a Russian pullback, welcomed the decision to halt the fighting but said Georgia's sovereignty, integrity and security must be protected. There was no immediate comment from the United States.
As he started talks with Sarkozy, Medvedev said Georgia must pull its troops from the breakaway regions and pledge not to use force again to solve the conflict.
Hours before Medvedev's announcement, Russian forces bombed the town of Gori and launched an offensive in the only part of Abkhazia still under Georgian control, tightening the assault on the beleaguered nation.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said earlier Tuesday that Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili should leave office and that Georgian troops should stay out of South Ossetia permanently. Moscow will not talk to Saakashvili, Lavrov said; the best thing for Saakashvili to do "would be to step down." But he said Moscow has not made Saakashvili's departure a condition for ending hostilities.
The U.N. and NATO had called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, which blew up in South Ossetia and quickly developed into an East-West crisis that raised fears in former Soviet bloc nations of Eastern Europe. Five European presidents were headed to Russia and Georgia to mediate.
Russian troops who had advanced into Georgia on Monday from South Ossetia, took positions near Gori on the main east-west highway as terrified civilians fled the area, and Saakashvili said his country had effectively been cut in half. Russian jets targeted administrative buildings and a street market in the center of Gori on Tuesday, Georgia's security chief Alexander Lomaia said, but there was no immediate information about casualties.
The Russians had also opened a second front in western Georgia on Monday, moving deep into Georgian territory from separatist Abkhazia. They seized a military base in the town of Senaki and occupied police precincts in the town of Zugdidi.
Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said Russian troops weren't in Gori but confirmed they have taken control of an airport in Senaki. Senaki is 30 miles east of Abkhazia. Nogovitsyn said at a briefing that Medvedev's order means that the Russian troops would stay where they are. He said they will retaliate if come under Georgian attack.
Lomaia said that Russian troops also attacked Georgian forces who continued to hold the northern part of Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge, Lomaia said,
Abkhazian officials said their own forces were carrying out the artillery attacks and that Russian forces were not involved in that fighting. At least 9,000 Russian troops and 350 armored vehicles were in Abkhazia, according to a Russian military commander.
An AP reporter who visited Zugdidi on Tuesday morning saw several Russian armored vehicles and dozens of troops outside the town's central police station. The mood in the city was calm, people were moving around and many stores that shut previously were open for business Tuesday.
The Russian onslaught, accompanied by relentless Russian air raids on Georgian territory, angered the West, bringing the toughest words yet from U.S. President George W. Bush.
Georgia, which sits on a strategic oil pipeline carrying Caspian crude to Western markets bypassing Russia, has long been a source of contention between the West and a resurgent Russia, which is seeking to strengthen its role as the dominant energy supplier to the continent.
Saakashvili endorsed an EU plan calling for an immediate cease-fire, in talks Monday with French and Finnish foreign ministers. Sarkozy was to negotiate the plan in Moscow, and the presidents of Poland and the former Soviet states of Ukraine, Lithuania and Estonia were headed to Georgia on Tuesday.
Bush had demanded Monday that Russia end a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in Georgia, agree to an immediate cease-fire and accept international mediation. "Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said in a televised statement from the White House.
Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States of hypocrisy in a tough statement that reflected both the measure of his anger at the West.
Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said more than 2,000 people have been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, most of them Ossetians with Russian passports. The figures could not be independently confirmed, but refugees said hundreds had been killed.
Both separatist provinces are backed by Russia. Russian officials had given signals that the fighting could pave the way for them to be absorbed into Russia.
Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 08:16 ||
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Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in an earlier news conference Tuesday that Russia wanted a demilitarized zone to be created in Georgian territory before a cease-fire took effect.
The zone had to be big enough to prevent Georgia's military from again attacking the breakaway province, Lavrov said.
He said Russian troops already in the breakaway province on peacekeeping duty should remain, but that Georgian troops who were part of that force should not return.
Lavrov said it would be best if Saakashvili stepped down as Georgia's leader -- something the president has vowed not to do -- but that Russia is not demanding his resignation.
"We have no plans to throw down any leadership," Lavrov said. "It is not part of our culture. It is not what we do."
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 8:45 Comments ||
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#2
possibilities
1. The georgian army is regrouping near Tbilisi, the Russians dont want to follow or take a chance on a guerilla war, so they are counting on their victory in SO and Gori and the bombings to drive Saak from power
1A. Same as above, but they dont think they need to drive Saak from power, they think theyve made their point even if he survives, and if he tries to spin a win, they will simply counter spin
2. Georgian army has dissolved, but the rest same as 1, with the motive for not advancing farther being simply to avoid guerilla war - better to quit while ahead
3. Same as 2, but the motive is to avoid western retaliation (what DID Sarko say? NATO membership for Ukraine?) of some kind
4. This is not real, Russians are getting ready for another big offensive, esp if Saak doesnt step down.
#5
It's interesting that President Medvedev made this statement, when Prime Minister Putin has made it plain he is running this particular show, even flying out after the Beijing opening ceremony to supervise this little war personally. Will the Russian generals obey current their current president, or the former one?
Posted by: Grenter, Protector of the Geats ||
08/12/2008 9:35 Comments ||
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#7
superstitiousGalitizianer, factors at play here:
The whole thing was timed wrong (as Russians are concerned). Seems that Saakasvili forced Pooty's hand and defused the original plan's timing, whatever it was (at the inception of Irans operation?). Thre are reports that when Pooty was told the news about Georgian military action at Tskhinvali, his face turned paper white. I doubt that was an expression of his concern for lives of Ossetians.
Georgian tactical retreats imposed a lack of traction for military advances of Russian forces and created an atmosphere of uncertainity--like fighting a phantom... I wonder how many officers were Afghan veterans and what their feelings were--deja vu mayhaps? Add some ambushes, especially if one ambush nailed a Russki general--a bit demoralizing.
Russians got a whiff (or were let on by some means) of an upcoming action in the case they would not stop their advance. This scared a shitload out of them. In poetic terms the action would be described as cutting of the windpipe. They knew they would be slowly cooked if that happened.
Not sure what Sarky told them, but despite he was undoubtedly polite, it did not sound nice nonetheless. I am sure there was a sort of trading going on and it is likely that some change of status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia is involved, probably not in Georgia's favor, but that has to be seen, yet. Some territory would be probably split.
The rhetoric of Russians related their halt is just a window dressing to save a face. Pooty's gambit failed. The "we don't care if Saakashvili remains as president" is a clear indication.
#8
TW, Pooty simply shifts the show on Medvedev, because there is no advantage for him to claim ownership. It got fucked up, so why not pin it all on his puppet?
#10
Seems that Saakasvili forced Pooty's hand and defused the original plan's timing, whatever it was (at the inception of Irans operation?).
Yes, it seems clear that a) Russia had an operation in the works for some time and b) it's hard to see how it could be unrelated to the possible upcoming strikes on Iran.
#11
they dont think they need to drive Saak from power
Correct I think. He will fall naturally.
They've delivered a vicious beating to the Georgians as an example to others in the region.
They'll have UN or EU troops in a buffer zone around S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. With Russian troops inside the regions, Georgia has lost them for good. There will be no status quo ante.
Saakashvili will be gone in a few months. He may be supported now, but people always rally around a leader in wartime. When normal political activity resumes, the Georgians will turn on Saakashvili with a vengeance. Somebody has to pay.
That video of him looking up in terror at Russian aircraft will sink him politically.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 10:04 Comments ||
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#12
It got fucked up, so why not pin it all on his puppet?
It's a bit late when even I know that Putin owns it, Spike Uniter. Nice tea leaves in the previous post, by the way.
(BTW, Old Spook....in regards to your post on a thread the previous day, the Tsar was appalled by what is going on. He personally cannot stand Pooty-poot. He does, however, get most of his news each day from Russian sources, which understandably have a different take on the situation. Since it is his native language, after all, I hope you'll cut him some slack on that.
He told me what they were saying.....I brought up what I read....and the "debate" went on from there, starting with Georgia and going on to what Putin might try to pull on my homies in Lithuania and the Baltics if this didn't stop before Georgia got completely overrun.
You may not like reading what I said, especially the part about how the Russians would perceive Georgian troops getting off of an American plane in Tbilisi. Fair enough. But to ignore how that might be perceived by the guys in the conflict with overwhelming firepower is, IMHO, not the kind of thinking that we need right now. )
Posted by: Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields ||
08/12/2008 10:12 Comments ||
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#14
Medvedev is the commander in chief de jure if clearly not de facto so legally he has to order a ceasefire.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 10:12 Comments ||
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#15
They've delivered a vicious beating to the Georgians as an example to others in the region.
Actually, the beating was mutual, in my view.
An important factor is that the "lesson" did not work out as planned. A) Georgians did not get shredded and had quite a bit of resistance potential = perceived positively; B) A fact that westerners stood behind them provided a positive proof that it is possible to resist the bear and have your back covered.
The chessboard has been switched right underneath Pooty. Mark my words.
The Georgians were running away from advancing Russian troops that only they could see.
I'm watching Sarkozy on TV now talking about a "mandate" for "Russian peacekeepers".
Peacekeepers?
Sarko is practically pleading for a recognition for Georgian integrity.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 10:25 Comments ||
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Slightly OT, but appropriate.....
Go to Google Maps and type in Tbilisi, Georgia. See what comes up. Just for fun, I tried to get it to give me driving directions to Tbilisi from Moscow and Kiev. No joy. Blank screen with the lame little "we cannot calculate driving directions" caption.
(Don't try to just look up "Georgia". All you'll get is the US state.)
Same thing when you try to look up Armenia and Abkhazia. Nothing comes up at all.
What's even weirder, is that you can still "see" maps for Georgia, Armenia and Abkhazia, if you make the scale big enough so you can see Turkey, Iraq, etc. There are no roads or cities marked. They have little roads marked for Iran, China, you name it.
Does Google know something we don't?
Posted by: Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields ||
08/12/2008 10:31 Comments ||
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It's not clear to me that the Russians have taken any kind of beating at all. The Georgian troops are fighting bravely, I'm sure, and I'm also sure that they're plenty tough. But all the news so far is the Russian advance to Gori and in the western region.
If the beating is 'mutual', I sure would like to see an account of it.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/12/2008 10:31 Comments ||
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#19
If hezbollah could score a "victory" by just surviving, Im not sure its out of the question for the Georgians to do the same.
Of course Hezb had a vast propaganda army to lead the spin war, including millions of haters of Israel and the west around the world.
#20
The Georgians were running away from advancing Russian troops that only they could see.
Estimated mil Russian casualties ~1800.
Estimated mil Georgian Casualties ~2100
You are not considering several factors. Georgian forces were told to tactically retreat and get only involved in ambushes with a certainity of inflicting casualties. By US advisors. The second purpose was to draw Russians inside to stretch them out a bit. After enough of them were drawn out into open, the windpipe would be cut, and Russian units would be attacked bit by bit. Slow cooking, as it were.
Moot now, but I am sure it was a reasonably good strategy.
Not sure what Sarky is blathering, can't comment on what I've not seen.
#24
Medvedev just said that "territorial integrity" is not the same as "sovereignty". Looks like Sarkozy will be feeding Saakashvili a rather bitter meal tomorrow.
Medvedev is calling Saakashvili a 'liar' and a'lunatic' and Sarkozy is silent
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 10:50 Comments ||
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Sarky's a European leader who wants to keep good relations with Russia as energy supplier. And who doesn't like the US influence in Georgia, one suspects -- or more accurately, wants to advance French influence with others.
#26
He mentioned ICC in response to a question about accusations of war crimes. He said that the various parties had recourse to the ICC.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 10:52 Comments ||
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#27
They talked about "status quo" and it seems that means the Russians get to stay inside the two enclaves.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 10:54 Comments ||
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#28
"International talks to resolve the status of the two enclaves"
The ceasefire is apparently "temporary" and "provisional" according to Sarko.
They are working for a "permanent" ceasefire.
Wonder how Saakashvili will take this from Sarkozy? He is rallying his supporters. A huge crowd in Tblisi.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 11:01 Comments ||
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#29
"Medvedev just said that "territorial integrity" is not the same as "sovereignty". "
#30
status quo, though, would mean they go back to only the original Russian peacekeeping forces. Not the whole 58th army. And to Georgian control of Kodori gorge. And no dmz. Not that bad a result for Georgia. A loss but not total. gives each side room for spin.
#32
Swamp Blondie: The lack of road and city data for Georgia is a Navteq issue, not a Google issue. Navteq is the underlying data provider. Georgia is not a covered country.
#33
But they need an ideology for true rebirth. They no longer have communism, which was so attractive to millions around the world.
"lite" fascism doesn't cut it. I doubt Russians will buy that. Putin doesn't have the charisma. Medvedev is even worse - looks like a head prefect at a Brit boarding school with sexual identity issues.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 11:36 Comments ||
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#34
for now its nationalism and prosperity, and that seems to be enough.
#37
Fox news is reporting bombing is still going on.
"Georgia Says Russia Still Bombing Despite 'Halt'"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402043,00.html
#38
They'll continue until Sarkozy has extracted a signature from Saakashvili.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 11:57 Comments ||
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I didn't know what CIS is/was, so I found this from Globalsecurity.org
2006. RFE/RL, Inc. Reprinted with the permission of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, 1201 Connecticut Ave., N.W. Washington DC 20036. www.rferl.org Analysis: Georgia To Assess Repercussions Of Quitting CIS
Georgia's National Security Council secretary reported that Russian forces occupied the city of Gori on Monday and Georgian forces are fortifying positions near Tbilisi to defend the capital.
Earlier on Monday, Russian troops advanced 25 miles from separatist Abkhazia to the town of Senaki inside Georgia proper, a spokesman at the Georgian Interior Ministry said. "They have advanced in dozens of armored personnel carriers and are now in Senaki," he said.
But Russia's Defense Ministry denied the claim. "There are no Russian troops in Gori," a ministry spokesman said.
"It's... ummm... somebody else."
Later, Russian forces moved into the town of Zugdidi outside the breakaway province of Abkhazia and seized police stations there.
The Georgian president has already signed a ceasefire pledge proposed by envoys from the European Union. President Mikhail Saakashvili said he signed the document together with French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and his Finnish counterpart, Alexander Stubb. Saakashvili says the EU mediators will head to Moscow later Monday to try to persuade Russia to accept the ceasefire.
Mikhail Saakashvili accused Moscow of trying to overthrow his government as Russian troops pushed into two separatist regions of Georgia.
That's the usual Soviet routine, isn't it?
Despite the ceasefire offer, swarms of Russian jets launched new raids on Georgian territory Monday and Georgia faced the threat of a second front of fighting as Russia demanded that Georgia disarm troops near the breakaway province of Abkhazia.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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It wouldn't surprise me if the government of Georgia made things seem worse than they really are in order to elicit a response from others (mainly us). I am not going to believe a word I hear from either government when two are engaged in combat.
Georgian military officials and civilians ask why the West hasn't intervened as Russia moves in.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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From Bush's speech: And these actions would be inconsistent with assurances we have received from Russia that its objectives were limited to restoring the status quo in South Ossetia that existed before fighting began on August the 6th.
#3
I got our daily intel brief this morning (this part is Unclass) - anyway, Bush told Russia they have to immediately cease hostilities and drop back to Russia proper -- not sure if the MSM picked this up or how our folks came by it.
#6
W. has made a lot of mistakes -- some of them really big ones -- but I was impressed by his Rose Garden comments yesterday. You could open a dry cleaning business with the steam that was coming out of his ears, and I think that the Russians actually have got the message (as we have gotten theirs, which is not very good news at all).
#7
Where do Ukraine and NATO fit in this picture? They seem to be the missing pieces, to me, in this discussion.
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/12/2008 10:29 Comments ||
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WAFF.com > STRATFOR ADMITS THAT RUSSIA DEFEATED THE US, NOT GEORGIA, IN SOUTH OSSETIAN CONFLICT/ CRISIS IN SOUTH OSSETIA: US [Strategic/Regional-Local] WEAKNESS AND RUSSIAN RESURGENCE. Russian success has shown the US-World that a US/Western-trained and led local professional army can be defeated by Russia = Non-US/Western Nations. US WAS UNABLE TO MIL ASSIST GEORGIA DUE TO VARIOUS NATIONAL-POLICY FACTORS INCLUD BUT NOT LIMITED TO ITS COMMITMENTS IN IRAQ + AGHAN-PAKISTAN, FACTORS AND WEAKNESSES WHICH RUSSIA EXPLOITED TO ITS UNILATER MIL ADVANTAGE AND VICTORY AGZ GEORGIA.
ALso from WAFF > OP-EDS/DISCUSSIONS > SCENARIO: A POSSIBLE NEW ARABIC INVASION OF EUROPE? Can Turko-Arabic unity in MidEast, Central Asia + Chinese Regions one day come to militarily endanger post-Cold war Europe, espec once NUCLEAR-ARMED???; + THE GEORGIANIZATION OF TURKS + PAKISTAN TRANSFERS "BABUR" CRUISE MISSLE TECHNOLOGY TO TURKEY!
President Bush on Monday demanded that Russia end a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in Georgia, agree to an immediate cease-fire and accept international mediation to end the crisis in the former Soviet republic.
Almost immediately after his return from the Olympics in China, Bush warned Russia in his strongest comments since the fighting erupted over Georgia's separatist South Ossetia region last week to "reverse the course it appears to be on" and abandon any attempt it may have to topple Georgia's pro-western government.
"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," the president said in a televised statement from the White House, calling on Moscow to sign on to the outlines of a cease-fire as the Georgian government has done.
"The Russian government must reverse the course it appears to be on and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward solving this conflict," Bush said, adding that he is deeply concerned that Russia, which Georgian officials say has effectively split their country in two, might bomb the civilian airport in the capital of Tbilisi.
He said Russia's escalation of the conflict had "raised serious questions about its intentions in Georgia and the region" and had "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world." "These actions jeopardize Russia's relations with the United States and Europe," Bush said. "It's time for Russia to be true to its word to act to end this crisis."
Despite the tough talk, the president's comments were not backed up by any specific threat of consequences Russia might face if it ignores the warning. U.S. officials said they were committed to the diplomatic track and were working with U.S. allies in Europe and elsewhere, as well as with the Russians, to defuse the crisis.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
And the Russian response involved, ahem, anatomy?
#3
Putin is the greater fool for getting publicly caught in the lie. Diplomacy is about shading the truth for effect without destroying trust by going so far as the actual lie, but even lying is ok if one doesn't get caught.
#4
It doesn't matter now, the damage is done, the only question is will this galvanize the people against Russia or will it terrorize them into submission?
#5
What are we gonna do C-in-C? I see lots of blue on the west of Georgia, we could have a MEU in there w/in a week...for purely humanitarian reasons of course.
#6
Putin has guaranteed that the West will no longer trust him at his word. Foreign policy for the Russians just got a bit more difficult. Of course they have natural gas that the Europeans need so it won't be too difficult unless they start invading westward.
Big EFL; this is a long summary to provide a starting point for today's discussion. Many pictures at link. Much of the news in this post was provided yesterday on the Burg.
By the way, Richard Fernandez of the Belmont Club has a great regional map that you can view here.
Georgian officials tonight claimed the country had been 'overrun' by Russian troops after a full-scale ground invasion. Amid reports that Moscow forces had taken the town of Gori - and were marching on the capital Tsblisi - Georgian soldiers appeared to be in full retreat.
If the news today mentions unrest in Ajaria, it will send the unmistakable signal that Putin wants it all. Ajaria is the south-west most part of Georgia on the Black Sea, has a population that also doesn't want to be in Georgia, and has revolted in the past.
Troops were apparently in complete chaos as a full-scale rout pushed them back through the countryside.
Meanwhile, the civilian crisis intensified with thousands of refugees fleeing the seemingly unstoppable advance of the Russian army.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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As the world watches a democracy crushed, a song dedicated to the people of Georgia...
#4
Russia wants to add fuel to this fire and the US was caught off guard. Everything seemed fine then 120 US personnel evacuated to Armenia. Do we treat Georgia as a pawn or a line drawn?
#8
What amazes me is Goergia didn't have a strategy to win or at least to avoid losing. Not rocket science, given the single access route through the tunnel and gorge. Which says to me this was instigated by Russia to a plan, and Georgia merely reacted to Russian/S. Ossetian provocations.
#12
President Dmitry Medvedev described Georgia's actions in the conflict zone as genocide. He has ordered Russian prosecutors to collect evidence of the crimes committed there. Georgia has exposed South Ossetia to a very crude and cynical aggression. People have died. Russian citizens have died, including local residents and peacekeepers. The actions of the Georgian side cannot be described as anything else but genocide. The information we have received suggests that horrible crimes were committed there. People were killed, burnt, run down by tanks, had their throats were cut, Medvedev said. The President went on to say that the operation to restore peace will continue and those guilty will be punished.
#13
Georgia's Stalin2 - now deceased - was a pathological Russian hater, and Chechen lover. Please read this correspondence from Gamsakhurdia to Shevardnadze (successor to Stalin2 and former Foreign Minister of the USSR)
Assuming anyone worth communicating with knows how to use "Internet Archive," please type the following dead link in same:
http://www.geocities.com/shavlego/ZG_Letter_SH.htm
Georgia is lead by revenge seeking cut-throats; Georgians will turf them out in a couple of days. Georgia cannot survive without Russia. Anti-jihadis need to be on Turkey's north.
At least you don't appear to want another Cold War. I could get a chill from the neo-Bosnia/Kosovo rhetorical circuses. Yah, erect statues to Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Wesley Clark. Reagan is rolling in his grave over the misuse of the "freedom" concept.
#19
Someone gets it, as will the rest of you get it by Saturday. We'll see who dug themselves into a rhetoric pit. I laugh at your anguish and comic-resolve. Actually, I am listening to Rawdog comedy on satellite radio.
#21
So McZoid, you'd rather back a real and present danger to peace and to europe and the former soviet states, you back an expansionist militaristic thug Putin in Russia, all to satisfy your fantasy world of pretending the current Georgians are all Stalinists?
Come on, nobody can be that stupid for real. Comem on and tell us you have trolled us.
You have yet to prove any of your points, your junk is thinly soruces, and almsot all of it predates the rose revolution.
And you give a free pass to the massive invasion of Georgia by Russia, and then have the stupidity to claim Georgia NEEDS russia, the NEED this invasion?
Try explaining how you will get "anti-jihadists" from this action! Let see your explanation.
Do you really expect a vassal state Georgia controlled by Iran's ally, Russia, will be of ANY help against your dreaded international Islamofascist conspiracy?
Are you stupid enough to continue to repeat the lies, to insist that the the Goergians will be better off in a corrupt puppet regime installed by Russia - like the Shevardnaze regime?
I am amazed at the mental damage you are displaying.
Actually I wasn't referring to your anguish, since I don't detect same. Most of these pages have a 100 views, and the presence of stalkers without spell-check suggests multiple look-sees. So why would an anon mouthpiece get exasperated at comment with low currency? A contrary opinion would hardly be taken as a mortal blow to anyone but the self-absorbed and mentally weak. Its a parlor game.
This may join South Ossetia and Abkhazia as "independent" regions. It will be the final humiliation for Saakashvili, reversing his military action in 2004.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 7:44 Comments ||
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#24
jc5628: Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Africa, Afghanistan, Serbia
Let me suggest that this is nothing to do with Communism, and is more of the same Imperial Russia phenomenon that saw other European countries clash repeatedly with them over their relentless expansion. This is part of the reason the Western powers had to go east - to keep Russia from grabbing it all. It is also, in part, why the West acquiesced to China's annexation of East Turkistan (Xinjiang) - the alternative was Russian conquest.
#26
I really dislike this Putin Guy...
I vote for Rods from Hell, so in the future a meteor just happens to visit wrath on those in the way of the Great Satan...
Georgia has asked China to use its influence to push for a resolution to a territorial flare-up with Russia. Georgian troops have pulled out of the breakaway province of South Ossetia after being overwhelmed by Russian forces. Daniel Schearf reports from Beijing.
Georgia's ambassador to China, Zaza Begashvili, met with China's foreign minister to seek support in the dispute with Russia. Afterwards, Ambassador Begashvili held a briefing for a small group of foreign and Chinese journalists.
Begashvili would not say how the Chinese responded to the call for help. But, flanked by several embassy staff and supporters wearing red arm bands that read "Stop Russia!" he said he hoped China, as a great power, would make the right conclusion.
He says he is sure that China recognizes Georgia's borders, that it is as an independent state, and that it is a member of the United Nations. He says he is sure that China, as a member of the U.N. Security Council, will express its opposition to this aggression against an independent state.
China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang issued a statement during the weekend saying the conflict should be resolved peacefully through dialogue. The statement joined the United States and other countries in calling for an immediate cease-fire.
Diplo-speak for "Don't call us, we'll call you."
Fighting between Georgian and Russian troops erupted after Georgian soldiers entered the breakaway province of South Ossetia last week to try to re-take it. Russia counter-attacked, driving Georgian troops out and bombing another separatist province - Abkhazia.
U.S. President George Bush condemned Russia for what he called a "disproportionate" response and spreading the conflict outside South Ossetia.
Bush made the comments while in Beijing for the Summer Olympics and after meeting with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who was also in Beijing for the games. The conflict has not prevented athletes from Georgia or Russia from competing in the Olympics. "Both national Olympic Committees, very much in the spirit of the games, continue with sport," said International Olympic Committee spokeswoman Giselle Davies.
Georgia is a U.S. ally and sent soldiers to Iraq in support of the U.S.-led invasion. The United States is airlifting those troops back to Georgia, sparking bitter criticism from Prime Minister Putin.
Moscow says more than 2,000 people have been killed in fighting this past week, but the figures have not been independently verified. South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s and allied itself with Russia.
That's one way to put it.
Posted by: Full Bosomed1072 ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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Given the new Russian precedent of intervention, I expect that the ethnic Chinese majority in easter Russia willsoon cause China to overrun and liberate them as "peacekeepers"
Its the Precedent Russia has set.
/sarcasm
(in case you didn't catch the reduction ad absurdem demolition of the "kosovo is a precedent" arguements yesterday)
#3
I imagine China is quite content to see the Russians regaining the monopoly on oil export from the Caucasus - gives them a lever towards getting a major pipeline to the east out of Kazahkstan.
World Vision began providing emergency assistance today to displaced civiliansmost of them women and childrenwho managed to flee to Georgias capital, Tbilisi.
Our staff have been hearing some truly heartbreaking storieschildren who got out but their parents didnt, for example, said David Womble, World Visions national director in Georgia.
World Vision provided essential food including canned meat with vegetables, pasta, canned fish, vegetable oil and iodized salt, along with emergency items such as bars of soap, toilet paper, wet napkins, towels, bed sheets and large woolen blankets to mainly women and children, who escaped the violence in Gori and villages in South Ossetia.
The agencys relief team met one 36-year-old mother who escaped the violence from Gori with her two children: I have seen war, but what I saw today was terrible. I havent seen anything like that in my life.
#3
You sure this World Vision place isn't just going to spend the money on an Obama campaign ad? After all, the best way to help in Georgia is to disarm the imperialist AmeriKKKa forces that caused this war in the first place, by assisting democracy in Georgia...
#4
Apparently the American embassy there has emptied their stores providing whatever help they can to the Georgian refugees. If I recall correctly, the supplies they had on hand were a little odd for people who spend most of their time at dinner and cocktail parties. Despite wild claims to the contrary, it seems our people were not totally unprepared for current events.
IN panic and utter confusion, the Georgian army fled the town of Gori last night, chased by a seemingly invisible Russian advance. As has so often been the case in this short but brutal war, this was pure chaos.
From the direction of their former front line positions close to the internal boundary with the breakaway region of South Ossetia, columns of Georgian tanks and armoured personnel carriers hurtled along the main road bisecting Gori.
Army trucks crammed with troops screamed after them, swerving madly through the streets before barrelling along the highway to the capital Tbilisi.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: john frum ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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There isn't going to be a RussiaGeorgia Olympic water polo match this year, is there?
Posted by: Eric Jablow ||
08/12/2008 1:53 Comments ||
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#2
If so, save the trouble. Hand them all 2x4's and just let them beat the hell out of each other outside the arena.
#2
Rather the opposite of what the Rooskies wanted. I would expect some serious economic pressure in the months ahead. Winter's coming, and Europe needs natural gas to get by ...
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/12/2008 20:39 Comments ||
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The conflict between Russia and Georgia, which shocked capitals and markets with its speed and ferocity, may help Poland and the United States finally reach a deal on deploying a U.S. anti-missile system on Polish soil, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said on Tuesday.
Tusk said the latest signs from Washington indicated the United States was now ready to meet his demands for enhanced military cooperation with Poland in return for consent to host parts of the installation.
"I will not announce a success before the ink is dry but the information we are getting makes the acceptance of my government's demands by the U.S. more probable than only a few weeks ago," Tusk told a news conference.
Tusk spoke as the West tried to firm up a ceasefire to end days of fighting between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia, which battered the region, forced nearly 100,000 people from their homes and killed nearly 2,000.
The conflict also revived fears of a Cold War as Russia and the United States sharply criticized each other over Georgia, which has angered Moscow as it moved out of its sphere of influence and into the West's.
Tusk said Russia's action against Georgia seemed to have confirmed Poland's fears that its security could deteriorate if it agreed to place the U.S. system on its soil, a prospect which has enraged Moscow.
"Today, after what has happened in the Caucasus, it can be clearly seen that real security guarantees that would not leave Poland just with the installation are essential," he said. "It seems such arguments are taken more seriously now by the U.S."
U.S. negotiators are due in Warsaw on Wednesday for the next round of talks, which stalled last month when Tusk rejected a U.S offer as inadequate.
In return for hosting 10 ground-based interceptors, Poland demands permanent stationing of a U.S. Patriot battery on its soil as well as investments in Poland's outdated air defenses worth billions of dollars.
Russia has decried the U.S. plans to place the interceptors in Poland and a giant radar in the Czech Republic, both former Soviet satellites, as an attempt to upset the post-Cold War balance of power in Europe.
Moscow has threatened to take counter measures such as pointing medium-range missiles at both countries.
Washington dismisses Russia's concerns saying the missile shield would be no match for thousands of Russian missiles but could save the West from rockets fired by "rogue regimes" or non-state groups such as al Qaeda.
The Czechs have already signed up to the radar but the negotiations with Poland have been dragging on for months since Tusk took over as prime minister in November from his pro-U.S. conservative predecessor.
Sen. Chuck Hagel, a Nebraska Republican who is one of John McCain's closest friends -- but who has been mentioned as a potential running mate for Democrat Barack Obama -- is sitting out the presidential contest, according to his spokesman, Jordan Stark. "Senator Hagel has no intention of getting involved in any of the campaigns and is not planning to endorse either candidate," Stark said in a statement to USA TODAY. . . .
Posted by: Mike ||
08/12/2008 18:41 ||
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#1
Doesn't sound courageous, sounds passive. He could inject a modicum of sanity should that snake oil salesman get elected.
I think he might be right.
If reporters had nabbed former presidential candidate John Edwards lying about his extramarital affair, Hillary Clinton would have captured the Democratic presidential nomination, her former communications director said.
"I believe we would have won Iowa, and Clinton today would therefore have been the nominee," Howard Wolfson told ABCNews.com in an interview released Monday, because internal campaign polling showed "our voters and Edwards voters were the same people. They were older, pro-union. Not all, but maybe two-thirds of them would have been for us and we would have barely beaten Obama."
Two months after Edwards first denied rumors of the affair, Barack Obama's win in the Iowa caucuses and Clinton's third-place showing behind Edwards fundamentally altered the shape of the race.
"Any of the campaigns that would have tried to push that [rumor] would have been burned by it," said Wolfson, who said he did not understand why, in his view, the national media had not aggressively reported the story. "I can't say I understand the rules of the media and I'm not sure they do either." Clinton officials have long blamed the media for her failure to live up to pre-vote expectations.
Obama's campaign has disputed the idea that Edwards voters were natural Clinton voters if he were to exit the race, pointing to the fact that once the former North Carolina senator dropped out, Obama immediately went on to a string of victories, racking up 11 in a row. They also say that anti-war liberals in Iowa would not have supported Clinton, given her vote authorizing the use of force in Iraq.
The available numbers tend to argue against Wolfson's point of view, says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. Among Edwards voters in Iowa, CNN polling indicated that Obama was the second choice of 43 percent, and Clinton of 24 percent, with 11 percent naming other candidates.
"Since Edwards got 30 percent of the vote, we can estimate that if Edwards had not been in the race, Obama would have picked up an additional 13 percentage points, and Clinton would have picked up an additional 7 percentage points," says Holland. "So hypothetically, if Edwards had not been in the race, Obama would have still won the Iowa caucuses by a 51 to 37 percent margin."
#3
There is no way to accurately estimate how many people would have voted for either one. Wishful thinking.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
08/12/2008 11:50 Comments ||
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#4
I read one person suggesting Edwards should be invited to the convention because he'd make Obama look clean by comparison. Yeah, but it would really rile up HIllary's fans. Should make for an interesting convention either way.
#5
Breck Boy has been at the very top of their shit list for some time. And, she probably would have taken those votes. But, she may still win at the convention. I think Hill & Bill don't give a shit if this turns Dummocrats inside out. She actually has a real chance to beat McPain, something Hussein can't do. And, face it, if it wasn't for the votes the Arky took in the South, Romney would be the Pub nominee.
#6
"Any of the campaigns that would have tried to push that [rumor] would have been burned by it," said Wolfson, who said he did not understand why, in his view, the national media had not aggressively reported the story.
Because bringing up a story about a smooth talking Southern candidate who cheated on his wife and lied about it brought up too many bad memories?
Posted by: Steve ||
08/12/2008 16:43 Comments ||
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House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Monday night dropped her staunch opposition to a vote on offshore oil drilling in the House.
Republicans, reacting to high gas prices, have demanded a vote on additional oil exploration in the Outer Continental Shelf, where drilling is currently blocked by a moratorium. Until now, Pelosi (D-Calif.) has resisted the idea as a "hoax." But in an interview on CNN's Larry King Live, she indicated that she was open to a vote.
"They have this thing that says drill offshore in the protected areas," Pelosi said. "We can do that. We can have a vote on that."
She indicated such a vote would have to be part of a larger package that included other policies, like releasing oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which she said could bring down prices in a matter of days. The only reason they would come down is because people would be worried less about the Donks staunch refusal to do the right thing. Now what happens a couple of months later when the government has to start refilling that reserve? Prices spike again due to increased "demand". No net gain, unless you count the political sort.
Releasing oil from the Strategic Reserve would be relatively dumb: rising gas prices is not a short-term emergency. However, the mere thought of using it allows us to hoist Queen Nancy on her own petard: if increasing supply will lower prices, as releasing oil from the Reserve would, doesn't that mean that increasing supply by drilling offshore also would lower prices?
"But it has to be part of something that says we want to bring immediate relief to the public and is not just a hoax on them," Pelosi continued. So it's at Pelosi's discretion? I wonder whatever happened to government "of/by/for the people". They're behaviro is closer to that of a ruling class than that of public servants.
She even indicated that she might support a package that includes drilling. She said her decision on whether to support such legislation would depend on how the policies are packaged. "It's not excluded, let's put it that way," Pelosi said. Uh, yeah. I hear you. Sounds a lot like Obama's grudging statements about "limited" drilling.
In a year in which Republicans expected to take a beating at the polls, their support for drilling in protected areas has been a sudden bright spot. They have relentlessly demanded a vote on drilling as Democrats rearranged House business to avoid such a vote.
But the pressure has only grown. Republicans demanded a drilling vote before the House went home for the summer recess, and when that didn't happen, some stayed behind in the chamber to protest.
A bipartisan group in the Senate came up with a plan that would include drilling, and Democratic presidential contender Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) has said he's "willing to consider" it.
And Democrats realize that it will be difficult to end their legislative year in September without a vote because the offshore drilling moratorium must be renewed every year.
Pelosi had previously said she would allow a vote on drilling and then backed off. On July 30, the last day Congress was in before the August recess, she was interviewed by the Capitol Hill press corps. She was asked if she could envision a vote on drilling in new areas this year, and she answered, "Of course."
But her aides later released a statement saying she was not announcing a change in her stance on a drilling vote.
#2
There's a good chance that Pelosi won't be elected speaker by the next House of Representatives. If only 19 Democrats make a deal with the Republicans to select somebody else, they will win.
This is possible, because Pelosi has deeply offended a lot of her fellow Democrats. So if the Republicans agree to a much more moderate Democrat, with only 8% of the Democrats joining them, they will win.
Pelosi has been the least effective SOH in my lifetime, worse even than Foley. So bad that there are plenty of Dems who would like to see her go.
I'm guessing that if McCain gets in, Pelosi is gone for sure. In the ugly event that BHO is elected, she has a small chance of staying in place, but only just.
Posted by: no mo uro ||
08/12/2008 10:18 Comments ||
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#4
Looks to me like she is thinking that she can wrap enough garbage up in a huge bill that Republicans can't swallow, they they will reject the bill. Trying to turn Republican lemonade into rotten lemons? Still, she hasn't shown any ability to finesse anything to that. We can hope that she blows this, too.
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/12/2008 11:12 Comments ||
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#5
Eww. Did you have to mention Pelousi and blows in the same thread?
(Xinhua) -- Aimed to consolidate his commander-in-chief credentials, U.S. Republican presidential hopeful John McCain took a hard stance toward Russia Monday in the wake of the Russia-Georgia conflict. "Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government's actions will have for Russia's relationship with the U.S. and Europe," McCain said in Erie, Pennsylvania, before a bus trip of the state.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
This is why I will be voting for McCain... no matter what other political stance that he takes...
I believe in my heart that he will do all he can to protect our way of life... to promote democracy... and uphold our constitution...
I can not say I believe that of his rival... lol... no I have no faith in that bunch...
I suspect the only "negative consequences" that would concern Vlad would be large numbers of his tanks and planes being turned into charred piles of junk.
#3
The environmentalists can stay home this political season.
BO's tire inflation gages and no precondition meetings with dictators will not bring any results.
I am voting for our national security.
May he keep Pouty Putin Impotent through strength.
#8
Oldspook, McZoid is baiting you, and you keep taking the bait. Just ignore the piss ant. Those who know the truth will just laugh at McZero's diatribe and move on.
#9
Maybe he is , but his views suck so badly it hurts this great website . And as OS has pointed out on numerous occasion , Zoid is really just a proxy butcher's mouthpeice sprouting shite wherever he goes . The irony for me is that he's happy to call Iran Islamo facsist and then happy to to back the Ruskies on this rather sore topic .
Having the Russian 58th army in Georgia is akin to having the Nazis in Poland in 1939 .
#10
Ooh and now the precedent has been set , how far to the Russians want to go ? Ukraine maybe ? The next two weeks are going to be extremely interesting to say the very least . And the aftermath will last for years if not dealt with firmly now ....
#12
Called an end to military action because a second front has been opened up by seperatists maybe ? His 'legal troops' can pull back and leave the seperatists to hound the Georgians maybe .
#14
That being said . the Russian president has just called for an end to military action - something is goin on in the background we dont know .
From Belmont Club -
"But the Russians have repeatedly failed to âbagâ or encircle the Georgian Army, whose losses appear to be relatively light. The Georgians may have decided to avoid a ruinous battle for Gori, preserve their army and keep their state alive â even at the cost of abandoning their Black Sea ports and Kolkhida Lowland â in favor of a withdrawal behind the second of their major mountain ranges: the Lesser Caucasus.
The Lesser Caucasus runs parallel to the Greater Caucasus range, Georgiaâs border with Russia with the Kolkhida Lowland between them. It is about 600 kilometers long. To use the metaphor of Rorkeâs Drift, it is the inner "bags of mealies" wall."
That wasn't in the Russians plan. So now they have to do the usual elaborate planning and build up again for another big lurch classical Soviet offensive. The Georgians are smart enough to understand you can lose cities but keep the army and still fight [something George Washington understood as well].
#15
When Obama & Hillary were duking it out a couple months back McCain went to Baghdad to see the troops...He looked presidential and in command of the issues, the two dem prez hopefuls looked like rookies in comparison sniping at each other (no pun intended wrt hillary). I don't care for mcpain but he's easily the better choice and I think he will be decent on these types of foreign policy issues. That being said, I hate his stance on illegal immigration and don't trust him on it.
#17
Illegal immigration has become an issue handled by passing and enforcing laws at the state level, Broadhead6. President McCain will be wise not to interfere with the actions of the people.
#18
TW, my problem w/him is that as C-in-C he ought to know that the military has a onus to protect the sovereign borders of our territory, period. His stances have possibly undermined state authorities (sanctuary cities). Elected leaders are duty bound to uphold the law, esp senators. I think he's a country club rino minus his foreign policy, Iraq & prolly abortion. He talks about "all God's children" and crap like that wrt illegals....makes me want to stick a taco bell spork in my eye.
#20
No argument there, Broadhead6, except for the spork bit. I see no point of you wielding anything less than a heavy bit of exotic Victorian sterling. Although I'd really prefer you maintained stereoscopic vision for our upcoming challenges.
#21
but w/one eye I can become even more deliciously myopic! :)
Back OT, I think mccain is easily better suited for this than Obama....I'm pretty sure putty looks at obama and sees a naive rookie sweet boy in comparisons to the old grumpy man mccain.
#24
Hey BHead6 and all others who can answer -- I'm wondering about the troops reaction to McCain. I know we don't always see the whole picture when taken, but when Bush is with the troops, the pictures show them hanging all over him, arms draped around him, comfortable with him, smiles all around -- like, maybe they like him.
I noticed the same thing with our athletics,
Will that be the same with McCain? I mean, it seems our troops just reach out an grab Bush -- just my perception and let me know if I'm all wrong. Certainly wouldn't be the first time. There was the time back in......
#27
Sherry- whilst still on active duty, we were obliged to host Jimmy Carter on USS Flattop. All divisions and squadrons were required to provide 'volunteers' to listen to him ( for picture taking ops, get to see the C-in-C surrounded by his adoring military). Many of us fortunate enough to have been drafted into this, found very interesting things to look at outside the hangar bay. Not saying we deliberately turned our back on that POS, but the pictures were not used. I would expect the same sort of reaction today with Johnny Mac and Nobama. recall the recent 'hood themed pictures from his Iraq ghetto ball tour??????
#28
AS, thanx bro. Maybe you were going to compliment me on my pithy anectdotes and rugged good looks? (yeah, I didn't think so either)
BH6: I think it's coming back to me, it was something about China.
I don't think they're laughing.
They spent about $US 40 BILLION on rebuilding stuff in Beijing for the Olympics, This was going to be their showcase to show that the old Great China of history is _back_, and rebuilding its former glory. And to the Russians it was just another thing for them to use to national advantage to screw up some pipeline in the Caucasus.
They may not _say_ it in public because to do so would be to lose face, but I strongly suspect they're rather angry behind the mask.
#29
Sherry - I'm not sure how the troops will look at McCain, prolly more favorably then nobama who my peers and I view as an empty suit opportunist. For whatever reason the troops do like Bush's charisma, he doesn't come off as pretentious to us. I know most of them know McCain's record as a POW so that alone gives him a ton of credibility. Some of the ignorant officers and enlisted will vote obama sadly. Overall I think McCain will mop up the mil vote.
AS - Russia stealing Chinese thunder? Maybe you're right, I hadn't thought about that. Wasn't there a time when the Olympics was supposed to supercede hostilities? Like some un-written rule back in the past? Just wondering.
#30
BH6, I think the Russkies honor the "None of that fightin durin the 'Lympics ye hear!" rule about as well as the muzzies honor the "No fightin durin Ramalamadingdon er I'll curse yer mustache!".
Voters overwhelmingly believe that politicians will "break the rules to help people who give them a lot of money," but most say there's a bigger problem in politics today--media bias.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 55% believe media bias is more of a problem than big campaign contributions. Thirty-six percent (36%) disagree and think that campaign cash is a bigger problem.
People believe media bias is a bigger problem even though 63% believe most politicians will break the rules to help campaign contributors. Just 14% believe most politicians would refrain from breaking the rules for a donor. Forty-four percent (44%) say that lobbyists and campaign contributors have too much influence on John McCain's positions. Forty percent (40%) say the same about Barack Obama.
Just 22% believe it would be a good idea to ban all campaign commercials so that voters could receive information on the campaign only from the news media and the internet. Sixty-six percent (66%) disagree and think that, despite the annoyance factor, it's better to put up with an election-year barrage of advertising rather than rely on the news media.
Especially crucial is the view of independents: "Among those not affiliated with either major party, 47% say media bias is the problem while 43% hold the opposite view."
This means that at least half, and probably more, of swing voters are on the alert for biased reporting. It's probably more than that, because it's possible to believe that bias is a significant problem while believing that money is a bigger one. Dovetail that with an earlier Rasmussen poll showing that voters believe overwhelmingly that "most reporters are trying to help Barack Obama win the election this year" (49%, vs. only 14% who believe they're helping McCain) and it seems very likely that Barack Obama won't be getting the degree of default acceptance from voters that Bill Clinton largely received in 1992.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
I wonder if the Supremes (SCOTUS) would find a piece of legislation that restricts MSM like McCain-Feingold restricts free association and free speech of citizen to be 'constitutional' as well. It could be done through the commerce clause effecting only entities engaged in 'interstate' commerce holding corporations and business responsible for the content of their product just like all other business are. The owners and operators should be accountable for shoddy and substandard products regardless of business. We have a Pure Food and Drug Act, we can have a Truth and Accountability Act with a seriously revised libel statute removing the difference between public and private individuals [putting the 14th Amendment equal protection clause back into effect]. Of course the industry could be given an out by cover or front page sticky with something on the lines of "The owners and management of X corporation neither confirm nor deny the authenticity, validity, or accuracy of the content of this publication or broadcast. This information is provided for entertainment purposes only."
#4
The media monopoly is breaking if not broken. First there were bloggers breaking stories and helping to prove Dan Rather was a fake, then the Hillary half of the Democratic party learned what its like to be on the wrong side of media bia further shrinking the numbers of those that trust journalists.
A total of 42 new cases of dengue have been reported this week, of which 18 were reported on Monday. Seven cases have been declared positive after blood samples were screened, Sindh Health Ministry Dengue Surveillance Spokesman and Deputy Secretary Health Dr Shakil Malik told Daily Times. So far this year, there have been 216 cases of dengue reported at the various health facilities in Karachi. Two patients expired; one died after being infected a second time, added Malik. According to official figures, six cases have been reported at Liaquat National Hospital, three at Dr Ziauddin Hospital, two at Kutiyana Memon Hospital, one at JPMC and one at Civil Hospital, Karachi. Dengue antibodies were found in a blood sample from Abdul Ghaffar, 40, a resident of Korangi.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
wiki on Denuge
This infectious disease is manifested by a sudden onset of fever, with severe headache, muscle and joint pains (myalgias and arthralgiasâsevere pain gives it the name break-bone fever or bonecrusher disease) and rashes. The dengue rash is characteristically bright red petechiae and usually appears first on the lower limbs and the chest; in some patients, it spreads to cover most of the body. There may also be gastritis with some combination of associated abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting or diarrhea.
Other symptoms include
* fever;
* chills;
* constant headaches;
* bleeding from nose, mouth or gums;
* severe dizziness; and,
* loss of appetite.
Some cases develop much milder symptoms which can, when no rash is present, be misdiagnosed as influenza or other viral infection. Thus travelers from tropical areas may inadvertently pass on dengue in their home countries, having not been properly diagnosed at the height of their illness. Patients with dengue can pass on the infection only through mosquitoes or blood products and only while they are still febrile.
The classic dengue fever lasts about six to seven days, with a smaller peak of fever at the trailing end of the disease (the so-called "biphasic pattern"). Clinically, the platelet count will drop until the patient's temperature is normal.
Cases of DHF also show higher fever, haemorrhagic phenomena, thrombocytopenia, and haemoconcentration. A small proportion of cases lead to dengue shock syndrome (DSS) which has a high mortality rate.
#2
Dengue is the epidemic you never hear about. Cases have been growing for years at 20% to 30% per annum. The spread of multiple strains means the frequency of DHF is growing even faster. DHF results from being infected by a second strain after previous infection by another strain and has a 2% to 5% fatality rate.
I've had dengue and I'm extremely careful not to get a second case. Lathering with mosquito repellant when in Asia.
An opinion poll conducted by a private TV channel, Dawn News, showed that an overwhelming majority of its viewers did not support President Pervez Musharraf's impeachment, Dawn News reported on Monday. In a survey conducted between August 8 and 11, the channel asked its viewers whether Musharraf should be impeached or not. Of the 1,606 replies received, 1,192 (74 percent) respondents said that the president should not be impeached while 26 percent supported his impeachment.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
Since the coup, Mushy has consistently maintained majority public support. It increased when the US dropped sanctions. PEW polls report that Pakistanis - as high as 92% in one poll - hate America; but they love Mushy's management of relations with their largest aid donor.
The city was gripped with panic following rumours of the murder of PPP Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari on Monday. Some areas echoed with firings after the rumours that surfaced between 8:00pm to 9:00pm. Many people called newspapers and TV channels to inquire about the situation. Bilawal House spokesman Jamil Soomro and Sindh Home Minister Dr Zulfiqar Mirza dispelled the rumours and said that Mr Zardari was safe and busy with his meetings. Some areas of Hyderabad, Sukkur and Larkana and other major cities of interior Sindh witnessed a shutdown after the rumours. This was the third time after the general elections of 2008 that rumours of Zardari's murder had spread. The second time was in July.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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Every politician who is democratic would wish "to be remembered as voting on the right side of history," said Minister for Information and Broadcasting Sherry Rehman on Monday. The minister was addressing reporters outside the Parliament House after attending a meeting held to finalise the draft of the impeachment motion. She said the majority of parliamentarians wanted to be counted under the flag of democracy hoisted by the PPP as "they do not want to be seen as voting against democratic forces." "This is not about any party. Everybody who is democratic and a serious politician would wish to be remembered as voting on the right side of history," Sherry said.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif has declined to soften his stance regarding President Pervez Musharraf, Samaa TV reported. The channel quoted its sources as saying that a close aide of Musharraf met PPP Co-chairman Asif Zardari and asked him for safe passage for Musharraf. Zardari told the aide that PPP was ready to give safe passage but Nawaz was not willing to soften his stand.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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President Pervez Musharraf will not resign, his spokesman Rashid Qureshi said on Monday. "There is no reason that he should resign. Everything they are saying is false, so why should he resign?" Rashid Qureshi told AFP.
The spokesman however declined to comment on Musharraf's plans.
Dawn News reported Qureshi as saying that the president "will not step down in any situation" and that he will not respond to allegations being made through the media.
War on terror funds: Responding to Pakistan People's Party (PPP) Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari's allegations that the president misappropriated war on terror funds, Musharraf told Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid (PML-Q) leaders at the presidential camp office: "I am not corrupt like the rulers of the past who robbed the country. The complete record of all the financial assistance provided to us is available."
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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STUTTGART, Ark. (AP) - Work is to begin later this month on an $80 million plant in Stuttgart [Arkansas county Arkansas has over 100k acres of rice under cultivation] that is to convert rice products to ethanol. The plant [the full size one]is to employ about 200 people [probably this includes a lot of testing and QC types who will be part time and work on mainline Rice ops mostly].
The plant will use rice hulls and rice straws to produce ethanol and commercial silica. Colusa Biomass CEO Tom Bowers says a smaller version of the plant will be built over the coming four months. The company will use the smaller plant to fine tune the production process, then build the full-scale plant, which is to be in production by late 2009.
Construction of the full-scale plant is to begin in December.
The full-scale plant is designed to produce 12.5 million gallons of fuel ethanol and 152,000 tons of silica/sodium oxide [stuff used in glass and cement manufacture] annually.
#1
Meh. This stuff actually does have a biological function in maintaining soil quality - it's supposed to stay on the fields & contribute towards future crops. Admittedly, this is the Delta, and it's flatter than a Paris model, so erosion isn't as much of a factor as it would be up in the hills, but still. It represents material which has to be renewed with chemical fertilizers if it's not left on the field as residue.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/12/2008 12:39 Comments ||
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#2
Can silica/sodiun oxide be used in the new bendable glass that makes workable fuel cells possible and make cement using the carbon dioxide by-product of shale oil and coal gasification production?
The former Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra skipped bail yesterday and fled to exile in Britain, claiming he could not expect a fair trial on corruption charges because of political interference.
Thaksin and his wife, Pojaman, who was sentenced to three years in prison two weeks ago for fraud, said they flew to Britain because they had received "death threats" in Thailand.
Rumours were rife that the couple would flee after Pojaman, 51, was convicted of evading millions of pounds in taxes in connection with a 1997 shares transfer deal. But family aides had scotched the suggestion.
Immediately after Pojaman was sentenced, along with her stepbrother, Bhanapot Damapong, and former secretary, Kanchanpana Honghern, on July 31, Thaksin left for a speaking engagement in Japan before travelling to China for the Olympics opening ceremony. Last Thursday the trio boarded a flight for Beijing to meet Thaksin.
But when Thaksin and his wife, who were due to appear before the supreme court in Bangkok, failed to return to Thailand arrest warrants were issued and the court ordered the forfeiture of £195,000 bail bond. The tycoon's son Phantongtae and daughters Pinthongta and Paethontan, also face corruption allegations.
In a handwritten statement faxed from London and read on Thai state television, Thaksin, 59, said he travelled to Britain rather than board a flight he had booked to take him back to Bangkok on Sunday. No mention was made of seeking political asylum in Britain.
The tycoon, who held office for five years, said he would remain in Britain indefinitely, but hoped that he would be able to return to his homeland one day. "My wife and I have travelled to reside in England," he said in the statement. "If I still have luck, I would come back to die on Thai soil like every other Thai person. What happened to my family is like fruit from a poisonous tree - the fruit will also be poisoned. "There is a continuation of dictatorship managing Thai politics ... which is followed by interference in the justice system. These are my political enemies."
Posted by: Fred ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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Some of the demand in rich countries will be lost for ever, it noted, saying: Even if retail prices ease, it seems unlikely that motorists who have purchased smaller cars will revert to gas-guzzling vehicles.
But demand growth in emerging countries remained strong, with Chinese consumption rising above 8m b/d for the first time in June, hitting 8.3m b/d.
One time reductions in demand versus structural increases due to economic growth. It's pretty obvious in which direction oil prices are going.
#4
pb: One time reductions in demand versus structural increases due to economic growth. It's pretty obvious in which direction oil prices are going.
I would dispute that. Gasoline cost is a major chunk of household income for the Chinese, because they earn 1/10 of American incomes. As prices skyrocket, they would tend to cut back much more than the West. The people I know who drive are mainly weekend drivers. Even when oil was around $60 a barrel (up from about $35), people were using their motorcycles more, and their (small) cars less. $140 a barrel is pie in the sky for them.
#5
Zhang, there is always a price that will bring supply into balance with demand. It may well be that $140/B is the price at the moment, but my point was that demand is continuosly increasing due to economic growth. The rule of thumb is a 2% increase in energy consumption for each 3% increase in GDP. And no amount of one time energy savings will make that go away, although it may delay it. Oil prices are going a lot higher.
#7
PB, my point is that high oil prices (along with other country-specific issues) will decrease Chinese economic growth. Here's the latest from Reuters:
Oil prices fell on Monday as a drop in crude imports by No. 2 consumer China outweighed concerns over supply disruptions stemming from the conflict between Russia and Georgia.
#8
NS, the steeply-sloped GDP growth of the past is exactly what will change - in part because of oil prices, but in part because of the massive recession that will result from the credit crunch that follows the bursting of worldwide asset (including commodities) bubbles. Our unfortunate historical experience has been that all bubbles are good for the economy - in the form of accelerated GDP growth - until they burst.
#9
Note that a big part of the reason Chinese car sales are going through the roof is because motorcycles have been banned from a lot of cities. The problem is that many of them can't afford the daily commute to work by car. So they resort to riding buses during the week, and driving for leisure activities during the weekends. If oil prices stay high, the Chinese government might just relent and let motorcycles back on the streets. That would further crater demand, since many drivers on the margin (in terms of being able to afford to drive cars) would prefer to drive motorcycles, especially in China's big city traffic.
#1
Much of that waning demand is from the US. Makes sense, with our wealth, we have more alternatives than poorer folks have. I wonder how much of that disappearing demand will never return to the oil pipes?
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/12/2008 15:54 Comments ||
Top||
#2
I wonder how much of that disappearing demand will never return to the oil pipes?
If GM ever brings the Volt to market, one whole heck of a lot of it...
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A U.S. Coast Guard cutter will embark on an Arctic voyage this week to determine the extent of the continental shelf north of Alaska and map the ocean floor, data that could be used for oil and natural gas exploration.
U.S. and University of New Hampshire scientists on the Coast Guard Cutter Healy will leave Barrow, Alaska, on Thursday on a three-week journey. They will create a three-dimensional map of the Arctic Ocean floor in a relatively unexplored area known as the Chukchi borderland. The Healy will launch again on September 6, when it will be joined by Canadian scientists aboard an icebreaker, who will help collect data to determine the thickness of sediment in the region. That is one factor a country can use to define its extended continental shelf.
With oil at $114 a barrel, after hitting a record $147 in July, and sea ice melting fast, countries like Russia and the United States are looking north for possible energy riches.
"These are places nobody's gone before, in essence, so this is a first step," said Margaret Hays, the director of the oceanic affairs office at the U.S. State Department. She said the data collected may provide information to the public about future oil and natural gas sources for the United States.
This will be the fourth year that the United States has collected data to define the limits of its continental shelf in the Arctic.
Russia, which has claimed 460,000 square miles of Arctic waters, last summer planted its flag on the ocean floor of the North Pole.
That little factoid becomes more important this week, doesn't it ...
Hays said the Alaskan continental shelf may lie up to 600 nautical miles from the coastline, far beyond the 200-mile (322-km) limit where coastal countries have sovereign rights over natural resources. The research could also shed light on other potential energy resources, like methane frozen in ice under the ocean, that Hays said might one day have some commercial interest.
Larry Mayer, a university scientist, said melting sea ice, presumably from global warming, helped last year's mission. "It was bad for the Arctic, but very very good for mapping."
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/12/2008 00:00 ||
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Link ||
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#1
We should really start worrying when the Russians start issuing passports to Eskimos, or polar bears.
#2
...data that could be used for oil and natural gas exploration.
Of course, Congress will immediately declare any such resources to be off limits. You wouldn't want any polar bears or baby seals to be inconvenienced, would you?
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
(Xinhua) -- Aimed to consolidate his commander-in-chief credentials, U.S. Republican presidential hopeful John McCain took a hard stance toward Russia Monday in the wake of the Russia-Georgia conflict. "Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government's actions will have for Russia's relationship with the U.S. and Europe," McCain said in Erie, Pennsylvania, before a bus trip of the state.
The city was gripped with panic following rumours of the murder of PPP Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari on Monday. Some areas echoed with firings after the rumours that surfaced between 8:00pm to 9:00pm. Many people called newspapers and TV channels to inquire about the situation. Bilawal House spokesman Jamil Soomro and Sindh Home Minister Dr Zulfiqar Mirza dispelled the rumours and said that Mr Zardari was safe and busy with his meetings. Some areas of Hyderabad, Sukkur and Larkana and other major cities of interior Sindh witnessed a shutdown after the rumours. This was the third time after the general elections of 2008 that rumours of Zardari's murder had spread. The second time was in July.
Every politician who is democratic would wish "to be remembered as voting on the right side of history," said Minister for Information and Broadcasting Sherry Rehman on Monday. The minister was addressing reporters outside the Parliament House after attending a meeting held to finalise the draft of the impeachment motion. She said the majority of parliamentarians wanted to be counted under the flag of democracy hoisted by the PPP as "they do not want to be seen as voting against democratic forces." "This is not about any party. Everybody who is democratic and a serious politician would wish to be remembered as voting on the right side of history," Sherry said.
PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif has declined to soften his stance regarding President Pervez Musharraf, Samaa TV reported. The channel quoted its sources as saying that a close aide of Musharraf met PPP Co-chairman Asif Zardari and asked him for safe passage for Musharraf. Zardari told the aide that PPP was ready to give safe passage but Nawaz was not willing to soften his stand. 
President Pervez Musharraf will not resign, his spokesman Rashid Qureshi said on Monday. "There is no reason that he should resign. Everything they are saying is false, so why should he resign?" Rashid Qureshi told AFP.
