[CNSNews] For several years we have been seeking records of then President-elect Barack Obama’s interview with two FBI agents and two assistant U.S. attorneys regarding former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, who was sentenced to fourteen years in federal prison for attempting to sell Obama’s vacated Senate seat.
Our Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests were rejected, and so we have now filed a lawsuit (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of Justice (No 1:16-cv-00576)) against the U.S. Department of Justice in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia seeking the FBI interview records of Obama, Rahm Emanuel, and Valerie Jarrett.
The FBI denied our June 1, 2011, FOIA request seeking:
Records of FBI interviews with Barack Obama concerning or relating to Rod Blagojevich, including but not limited to notes, summaries, and recordings of the interview.
Records of FBI interviews with Rahm Emanuel concerning or relating to Rod Blagojevich, including but not limited to notes, summaries, and recordings of the interview.
Records of FBI interviews with Valerie Jarrett concerning or relating to Rod Blagojevich, including but not limited to notes, summaries, and recordings of the interview.
Records concerning any of the aforementioned interviews with Barack Obama, Rahm Emanuel, or Valerie Jarrett.
The FBI contends the release of these records "could reasonably be expected" to interfere with law enforcement proceedings and withheld them under Exemption 7 (which allows agency to withhold certain law enforcement records).
Here is the background:
On December 18, 2008, about a week after Blagojevich’s arrest, then-President-elect Barack Obama was questioned at his Chicago transition office about the scandal surrounding the alleged sale of the Senate seat he vacated in 2008. We are seeking the FBI summaries from this interview.
In January 2009, we released documents from the office of then-Governor Rod Blagojevich related to Blagojevich’s contacts with President-elect Obama and his transition team. The documents include a December 3, 2008, letter from Barack Obama following his December 2, 2008, meeting with Blagojevich, as well as a November 17, 2008, letter signed by Presidential Transition Team co-chairs Valerie Jarrett and John Podesta, providing Blagojevich with a list of transition team contacts. These documents tend to undermine Obama’s claims that he had no contact with Blagojevich.
Blagojevich was convicted on 17 of the 20 public corruption charges against him, some of which have been vacated. He is not scheduled for release until 2024. The Supreme Court has refused to hear his appeal on the 13 remaining corruption charges. A federal judge has scheduled Blagojevich to be resentenced on June 30, 2016.
Writing in The Washington Examiner, Rudy Takala noted, "There are no enforcement proceedings related to the case known to be pending, leading critics to charge that the agency's denial is politically motivated."
Well, yes. This lawsuit highlights the personal corruption issues of Barack Obama. He and his closest aides were interviewed by the FBI in a criminal investigation, and his administration doesn’t want Americans to have the details. The Chicago way shouldn’t trump the American people’s right to know.
#1
And there is another issue: Obama was president-elect, and thus would become the FBI's boss-of-bosses: did the fact that Obama could be able to punish the ones interviewing him have anything to do with there being no enforcement proceedings in the first place? Nixon was nailed because he was accused of using the power of his office and the agencies under him to affect an election that would have political consequences and thus was politically motivated. Why should Obama be exempt from the same accusation?
Finally, the job of preventing political corruption, and thus creating political implications of wrongdoing in one party clearly rests with the opposition, since we would be fools to believe that a political party would police itself and air its own political dirty laundry.
You Dems demand that we "do our jobs". Oh, we'll do our jobs all right. More than you can stand or handle!
[Daily Caller] An inmate who escaped from a North Carolina county jail on March 27 has been found decapitated, authorities said.
Authorities identified Kelvin Singleton, 26, an escaped inmate, as the headless body found partially decomposed last Thursday in a wooded area.
"He used what we believe to be a makeshift shank -- A knife made out of a toothbrush," Sheriff Dwayne Goodwin told reporters, according to WAVY.
Goodwin emphasized there was no indication anybody assisted Singleton. That must have taken a great deal of sheer determination, not to mention concentration and a steady hand. How exactly does one sever a head using a "knife made out of a toothbrush"? That's some toothbrush...
Palmyra: An old hieroglypher,
Undaunted with Daesh to differ,
Clawed out a last drawing
As Mahmoud was sawing:
"I sure wish this toothbrush were stiffer!"
[NYDAILYNEWS] the Texas teen who dodged a prison sentence for a fatal 2013 DUI crash by claiming he was too privileged to serve time, only to apparently violate his probation and flee the country two years later — must serve four consecutive 180-day jail sentences, one for each of the four people he killed in the wreck, a judge ruled Wednesday.
“You’re not getting out of jail today,” Fort Worth Judge Wayne Salvant told Couch, who turned 19 on Monday.
Posted by: Fred ||
04/14/2016 00:00 ||
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#1
Butcher 4 people and get 2 years?
The state abrogated its responsibility to render justice. The families would have had more real justice had they left him in Mexico and sought justice the old fashion way via the cartels.
#2
Hmph. the fact that he "dodged a prison sentence...by claiming he was too privileged to serve time" shows that justice was not rendered long before this specific hearing.
#3
Nobody liked the original sentence. A year later, the judge resigned/retired. The judge gave him about the max he could, under the law. It's a start.
Posted by: Bobby ||
04/14/2016 15:02 Comments ||
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I hope we never have to actually get into a real war with this. If an incident isn't seriously survivable, you better be able to fix it in a couple of weeks with duct tape and baling wire.
A repair bill of an estimated $23 million and months out of action. That's the cost to U.S. taxpayers and the Navy after the four-year-old littoral combat ship USS Forth Worth tried to operate its propulsion system without enough oil in January.
The Navy announced Wednesday that the $360 million vessel would make a six-week-long journey this summer from Singapore, where it has been tied up since the incident, to San Diego for repairs to its combining gears, the hardware that transfers power from the ship's diesel and gas turbine engines to its water-jet propulsion system.
"The casualty occurred due to an apparent failure to follow procedures during an operational test of the port and starboard main propulsion diesel engines," said the Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, in a statement issued earlier this year.
"During start up of the main propulsion diesel engines, lube oil was not properly supplied to the ship's combining gears as required by ship's operating procedures," said Lt. Cmdr. Timothy Hawkins, a Navy spokesman. "The insufficient flow of lube oil resulted in high temperature alarms on the port and starboard combining gears."
How long as the Navy been dealing with lubrication oil in a power plant? A hundred fifty years? Longer?
The Navy's $23 million cost estimate for the USS Fort Worth covers already underway maintenance, transiting from Singapore to San Diego and scheduled repairs and maintenance once the ship reaches its home port, according to Hawkins.
"Preparations are expected to take several months to complete necessary inspections, conduct lube oil system flushes and configure the engineering plant for safe operations," a Pacific Fleet statement said.
The 388-foot, 3,400-ton Fort Worth will make the 8,900-mile trans-Pacific voyage using just the power from the gas turbine engines, meaning it will be slower and require several more refueling and supply stops that would normally be the case, the Navy said.
Putting as bright a face as it could on the incident, the Navy said the Fort Worth's repair time in San Diego would coincide with a planned maintenance period in its home port.
The incident cost the then-commander of the Fort Worth, Cmdr. Michael L. Atwell, his job in late March when the Navy announced Atwell was being reassigned to LCS squadron duties in San Diego.
"Sufficient findings of facts emerged during the investigation to warrant the relief of the commanding officer," the Pacific Fleet said in a statement at the time.
The mechanical mishap on the Fort Worth came shortly after a similar mistake on its sister ship, the USS Milwaukee, which broke down in the Atlantic Ocean on December 10, less than a month after it was commissioned. The ship had to be towed 40 miles to Joint Expeditionary Base Little Creek-Fort Story in Virginia. The Navy said at the time that metallic debris was found in filter systems in the ship, causing a loss of pressure in lubricant to gears that transfer power from the ship's diesel and gas turbine engines to its water jet propulsion system.
Navy officials later explained what happened in an email to CNN. The Milwaukee "is designed to operate with gas turbine and diesel engines, which can operate in tandem or independently," Navy Lt. Rebecca Haggard said. "In the case of Milwaukee, when switching from one system to the other, a clutch failed to disengage as designed. Instead, the clutch remained spinning and some of the clutch gears were damaged."
The Milwaukee has undergone repairs and in late February steamed from Virginia to Mayport, Florida, where the Navy said it would take on additional equipment for testing this spring before proceeding to its home port in San Diego.
The Navy's littoral combat ships come in two variants: the monohull and the trimaran. The Fort Worth and Milwaukee are monohulls. With a draft of between 14 and 15 feet and a speed of 40 knots, the ships are designed to operate in littoral environments, or shallower coastal areas.
#4
The Master Chief plaster saint hissed from his cube,
"You bobbled a bubblehead's boob?
The New Navy lobby
Will clobber you, swabby --
Your rack! Bring a bucket of lube!"
Did the United States win or lose the Vietnam War? We are taught that it was a resounding loss for America, one that proves that intervening in the affairs of other nations is usually misguided. The truth is that our military won the war, but our politicians lost it. The Communists in North Vietnam actually signed a peace treaty, effectively surrendering. But the U.S. Congress didn't hold up its end of the bargain. In just five minutes, learn the truth about who really lost the Vietnam War. If you detect a pattern when juxtaposed against recent events, you may not be incorrect.
[Legal Insurrection] U2 lead singer and philanthropist Bono praised former President George W. Bush on Tuesday for his initiative to fight the global HIV/AIDS epidemic and save the lives of those suffering from the disease, particularly in Africa, hailing the effort as an "amazing " success.
Bono appeared on MSNBC's Morning Joe to discuss his recent trip to the Middle East and East Africa to visit refugee camps full of people who escaped the Syrian civil war and from other collapsing states. He said the current refugee crisis poses an "existential threat" to Europe and called on the United States and other countries to provide more aid for both humanitarian and national security reasons.
As the interview was ending, Bono asked to say one final thing to Nicolle Wallace because she worked for Bush as his communications chief.
"Can I just say one thing?" Bono asked. "Actually, it's to Nicolle, and it's just, she knows because she worked for President Bush. The American people have done this before. They've taken on really impossible tasks and succeeded. And the battle in the fight against AIDS was won successfully. It's an amazing thing. America leads the world in the fight against AIDS. Nearly 10 million lives are owed to America. So you can do it. It's difficult stuff, but you're up to the job."
#1
So did he 'praise' Bush, or the work done by Americans under his term of office? And only in the sense of 'you need to step up and do it again'.
Posted by: Bobby ||
04/14/2016 7:39 Comments ||
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#2
He praised the Bush policy for fighting AIDS in Africa, a policy that never got much attention because those that push for more attention to Africa and more attention to AIDS also hated Bush and couldn't say a nice thing.
#3
Yes build more refugee camps in the nearest country. Let them retake their nations from corrupt rulers.
Neither of the above will happen as the establishment really want to mobilise the migrants as they collect the higher rents, that are funded by middle class taxes.
The Greenland ice sheet is the second-largest single piece of ice on the planet (second only to the one in Antarctica). Nearly two miles thick in places, it contains some 684,000 cubic miles of ice. And because that is all above sea level -- as opposed to floating, like the northern ice cap -- if all of the Greenland sheet were to melt, it would raise the world sea level about 20 feet. I think I just figured out where all of California's water went!
So it's a bit worrisome that the annual melting season has begun a month earlier than the previous record start -- and in spectacular fashion, immediately leaping to a melt extent not usually seen until June. It's a clear and present danger to any low-lying cities, but also a reminder that the uncertainty of future predictions is one of climate change's most threatening aspects. Much like the inhabitants of Greenland couldn't have known that their beautiful land would be overrun by ice a hundred years after they moved there.
This chart shows the percentage of the melt extent over the ice sheet by month. Today's outlier is extremely stark: Is there a chart to go with it showing how quickly it was overrun by ice hundreds of years ago?
As Brian Kahn notes, even the summit of Greenland recently topped 20 degrees Fahrenheit -- some 40 degrees above average.
To be clear, this early melt does not mean the Greenland ice sheet is going to disintegrate tomorrow. On the contrary, while scientists have long thought that more than one or two degrees Celsius of warming would probably end up melting most of the sheet, they've also thought the process would take thousands of years.
Melting all that ice by direct heating would certainly take a very, very long time, due to its sheer volume. However, there are other mechanisms at work. Surface meltwater will flow down through shafts in the ice to the base of the sheet, where it can then increase the speed of glacier movement into the ocean by lubrication. A thinning glacier will also be more buoyant where it reaches the ocean, which will similarly make sliding into the ocean easier. Any comment on what I think may be volcanic activity below the ocean floor?
This is akin to the linear versus non-linear question which I have previously discussed regarding climate sensitivity. It might be that glaciers will respond in a simple, predictable fashion to increasing temperature, with ice loss increasing in a constant proportion to increased temperature. However, they also might respond with acceleration, with ice loss increasing much faster than temperature past some point.
From where we stand, it's very hard to say with any certainty whether the collapse of the world's ice sheets will be slow and steady or rapid and catastrophic. One must conduct measurements across thousands of square miles of treacherous ice, and much of the key development is taking place far below the surface. Models can help, and the science is advancing rapidly, but it's a devilishly tricky subject (though recent estimates suggest at least some acceleration).
However, one can say that extreme, nonlinear responses are easier to imagine in circumstances with extreme inputs to the system -- like, for example, a melting season that begins a full month before the previous record at breakneck pace. And that sort of yawing between weather extremes is precisely the sort of thing that climate models predict under future warming. Knowing what will happen to a particular ice sheet is hard, but it's now established beyond question that more warming means more extreme weather.
This is a key academic question, and many of the world's best scientists are working feverishly to figure it out. But for political leaders, the implications are simpler. A potential collapse of ice sheets in Greenland or Antarctica might be somewhat unlikely, but it would be a catastrophic emergency if it did happen -- and can't be fully ruled out. Catastrophic? As in it won't be immediately subject to OWG if a bunch of folks move there to avoid the political catastrophe here in America?
This should only strengthen the already ironclad case for strong climate policy. If an appliance professional told you there was a 1 percent chance your stove was going to explode and burn down your house, you'd definitely fix or replace it as quickly as possible. Even though the absolute chance is low, the downside is so large that it's not worth risking it. But what if that 1% was an exaggeration?
#2
The MMGW crowd always yells at us when we take one weather event to show that global warming isn't happening how they think, then they take one small point in time and say how the world will end.
Everything is proof that man is changing the climate, cold or hot and anything saying something else is heresy.
The highest elevation in Greenland - a "mountaintop" summit, is 2.295 miles above seal level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountain_peaks_of_Greenland#Highest_major_summits).
Looking at Greenland, this summit towers above the surrounding land.
Here is topographic representation of elevation in Greenland http://polarmet.osu.edu/jbox/data/sublimation_figure.gif
Now, the radius of earth is 3961.3 miles, or 20,915,664 feet, at sea level.
So - raising sea level 20 feet would mean changing seal level to 20,915,684 feet from Earth's center.
Now, there is whole lot of land interfering with any calculation of ocean volume, based on increase in sea level. And - Earth is not a perfect sphere.
But - lets do the simple numbers:
Volume of a sphere = 4/3 x pi x (radius) cubed.
Earth (before) = 4/3 x 3.141586 x (20,915,664 feet) cubed - and then compute cubic miles by dividing by (5,280 feet) cubed.
260,375,964,295 cubic miles
Earth (after) = 4/3 x 3.141586 x (20,915,864 feet) cubed - and then compute cubic miles by dividing by (5,280 feet) cubed.
260,383,433.677 cubic miles.
Volume differential: 7,469,382 cubic miles.
Now - figure in land mass that accounts for some of the increased volume. Land account for 29% or 30% of Earth's surface. Let's say 29.5%. So - assuming that 70.5% of the volumetric increase of the sphere's volume is water, that is 526,591,431 cubic miles of additional water, to raise sea level 20 feet.
Surface area of Greenland is 836,300 square miles. Add 2 miles of ice sheet over THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, and you get 1,672,600 cubic miles of ice.
Compare 1,672,600 cubic miles of ice - if ALL of Iceland was two miles deep in ice, and it all melted - and created the same volume of water - to 526,591,431 cubic miles of additional water needed, to raise sea level 20 feet.
By my thumbnail calculations, Greenland - if ALL ICE TWO MILES THICK - AND THEN COMPLETELY MELTED could produce 0.0031764 of the required amount of sea level rise, compared to 20 feet. That is - an increase in ocean depth of 0.7623 inches.
Now, there are lots of deviations from ideal - oceanfront contour of land mass - and also variations in ice thickness on Greenland's land surface - and the fact that melting ice produces a decreased volume of liquid water - and the fact that the ENTIRE ice sheet does not melt - but - in general - the article exaggerates by a factor of at least 315 times.
#4
I used the wrong value for Pi - should be 3.1415926 - but this is pretty much angels dancing on the head of a pin. The numbers in the climatista article are still orders of magnitude off from reality.
#8
Closer to six feet.
Volume differential: 7,469,382 cubic miles.
That much would raise the sea level 20', if it was all water. Since 30% is land, that much would raise the sea level closer to 26 feet.
So the volume of Greenland's ice is 1,672,600 cubic miles of ice, or about 22% of the 26 feet rise, or about 5.8'.
Still, very conservatively overestimates by a factor of four, compared to warmist numbers. But the science is settled.
Posted by: Bobby ||
04/14/2016 15:59 Comments ||
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#9
My thoughts are:
Multiply 2 miles of ice by the ratio of Greenland's surface area to the Earth's wet surface area (which is 70% of total surface area):
[WASHINGTONEXAMINER] Following a drop in students applying for housing, the University of Missouri will not be placing students in two dorms for the fall 2016 semester.
Mizzou will be closing the Respect and Excellence halls (ironic names, given the circumstances) in order to utilize dorm space "in the most efficient manner" to keep costs down.
In March, the university announced that it saw a sharp drop in admissions for the coming school year, and will have 1,500 fewer students. This will lead to a $32 million budget shortfall for the school, prompting the need to close the dorms in order to save money.
"Dear university community," wrote interim chancellor Hank Foley in an email to the school back in March. "I am writing to you today to confirm that we project a very significant budget shortfall due to an unexpected
Unexpected!
sharp decline in first-year enrollments and student retention this coming fall. I wish I had better news."
Posted by: Fred ||
04/14/2016 00:00 ||
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#1
Actions have consequences. Liberals act so surprised every time this happens to them.
Mizzou went all leftist kookoo clock nutzoid on everyone this year SOOOO....the good farmers, ranchers, and folks in Missouri are sending their children to safer and more serious academic environs...
#4
The concept of cause and effect are alien to the Left. Dogma and the narrative are their only world, yet they dare use terms like 'scientific', which they systematically debase, to rationalize that world.
#6
In March, the university announced that it saw a sharp drop in admissions for the coming school year, and will have 1,500 fewer students. This will lead to a $32 million budget shortfall for the school, prompting the need to close the dorms in order to save money.
Wait a minute:
$32 million divided by 1500 students equals...let's see...where's my calculator? Is that $21,333 per student per year? Multiply that times four and it seems like a lot of money to pay for a liberal arts degree that won't be worth the paper it's printed on. They might have to let some of the faculty go. You know, concentrate on teaching those kids something worthwhile...nah. They wouldn't do that.
[Iran Press TV] Soddy Arabia ...a kingdom taking up the bulk of the Arabian peninsula. Its primary economic activity involves exporting oil and soaking Islamic rubes on the annual hajj pilgrimage. The country supports a large number of princes in whatcha might call princely splendor. When the oil runs out the rest of the world is going to kick sand in the Soddy national face... ’s grand mufti has defended a ban on driving by females in the kingdom, saying it exposes women to "evil."
Mufti Sheikh Abulaziz Al Sheikh said in an interview with the satellite channel al-Majd that driving "is a dangerous matter" for women because it exposes them to evil.
The kingdom’s highest religious authority also said that men with "weak spirits" who are "obsessed with women" could cause harm to women drivers.
He also noted that family members of female drivers would not know about the whereabouts of women if the ban on driving for women is lifted.
The Wahhabi figure has gained notoriety for his various controversial and radical decrees, including his reported decree in 2007 for the demolition of the tomb of Prophet Muhammad (PTUI!) and an edict five years later for the destruction of all the churches across the Middle East.
Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. The ban stems from a religious fatwa imposed by the country’s Wahhabi holy mans. If women get behind the wheel in the kingdom, they may be incarcerated ... anything you say can and will be used against you, whether you say it or not... , sent to court and even flogged.
Saudi authorities have defied calls by international rights groups to end what has been described as a violation of women’s rights.
Posted by: Fred ||
04/14/2016 00:00 ||
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Yet again Russian jets made provocatively close passes to an American warship, as tensions continue between Moscow and Washington over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria. A senior defense official told CBS News there were two recent incidents that were "more aggressive than anything we've seen in some time."
The first, on April 11, involved two Russian SU24s, when the USS Donald Cook left the Polish port of Gdynia and was about 70 nautical miles from Kaliningrad in the Baltic Sea. The official said the Russian jets made 20 passes of the American ship and flew within 1,000 yards at an altitude of just 100 feet.
In the second incident on April 12, two Russian KA27 Helix helicopters flew several circles around the Donald Cook, apparently taking photos, after which two jets again made numerous close passes of the ship in what the official described as "Simulated Attack Profile."
"They were so close they created wakes in the water," the official said.
CNN reports "there is an intense discussion about releasing video and still photos of the Russian encounter to demonstrate the danger the jets posed to the ship."
It's not clear how many times this type of incident has happened, but in 2014 Pentagon officials publicly decried a similar incident in the Baltic. A close-flying jet came within a few thousand feet of the USS Donald Cook, a guided missile destroyer which was conducting a "routine mission" at the time. The U.S. ship tried to contact the plane's cockpit, but received no response.
The Russian plane, which the U.S. says was unarmed, made at least 12 passes. This continued for about 90 minutes. The event ended without incident. While the jet did not overfly the deck, Col. Steve Warren called the action "provocative and unprofessional."
Time for our naval air corps to find a Russian destroyer out in the middle of the ocean...
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/14/2016 00:00 ||
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Yes it is provocative and shoot them down. They would shoot us down if we did the same thing.
Peabody Energy, the world's largest private-sector coal producer, filed for bankruptcy on Wednesday in a U.S. court, citing "unprecedented" industry pressures and a sharp decline in the price of coal.
The company said it will continue to operate while in bankruptcy, while working to reduce debt and improve cash flow. Company has about 8000 employees. The coal produced by the company was used to generate about 10% of the electricity used in the US in 2014
Posted by: lord garth ||
04/14/2016 06:46 ||
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Not only the environmentalists, global warmers, and their White House patron have hurt coal, but also fracking, and yes - mild winters. Utilities didn't use up their winter stockpiles and fracking makes gas so cheap, new plants use gas and older ones convert to 'clean-burning' natural gas.
Posted by: Bobby ||
04/14/2016 7:27 Comments ||
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#2
Onerous EPA regulations, export controls, and Obama and Hildebeest's campaign promises to put coal companies out of business hardly mentioned.
#3
Remember during the "No Nukes" protests people saying "we've got enough coal for 500 years.
But that said making the coal industry clean up its own messes that may be caused by the mining and prepperation process isn't a bad thing either. As I understand it coal from open pit mines is washed. Does anybody really want that water getting discharged without getting cleaned up.
Sorry, no hashtag for this one. Nothing from the feminists. Human Rights Watch hasn't said a word. Michelle Obama has turned her head.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/14/2016 00:00 ||
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Michelle to Mohammedan women,
As if she had sucked on a lemon:
"Your problems are pissers!
They're causing our kissers
To pucker like unripe persimmon."
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
The Greenland ice sheet is the second-largest single piece of ice on the planet (second only to the one in Antarctica). Nearly two miles thick in places, it contains some 684,000 cubic miles of ice. And because that is all above sea level -- as opposed to floating, like the northern ice cap -- if all of the Greenland sheet were to melt, it would raise the world sea level about 20 feet.
White privilege flight? Creeping Detroitificaation? Trumpophobia ? 
CAPT Will C. Rogers, skipper of the U.S.S. Vincennes might have approached the problem a bit differently. 
