KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Militants hiding in a vineyard and armed with machine guns ambushed an Afghan army convoy Saturday, shooting dead four soldiers but losing 15 of their own. Violence elsewhere killed another 15 people - including two French troops and a U.S. soldier. The 34 deaths came amid some of the worst fighting in Afghanistan since the ouster of the Taliban in 2001 and reinforced fears of a resurgence of Islamic extremists.
A 24-hour spasm of violence killed some 120 people earlier this week, before calming briefly. It erupted again Friday with six militants, an Afghan soldier and a civilian killed in Helmand province, the main opium poppy-growing region, where drug profits are believed to fund the insurgency, said Gen. Rehmatullah Raufi, military commander for the south.
Hours later in the same area, insurgents crouching among fields of grapevines and wheat opened fire on a half-mile-long convoy of Afghan army trucks as they snaked their way slowly along a dirt road with reinforcements, he said. The two sides exchanged fire with machine-guns and AK-47 assault rifles for six hours before the insurgents fled on foot and motorbikes, the general said. When it was over, 15 rebels and four soldiers lay dead, while 13 troops were still missing, an army officer said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
Kanndahar (Afghanistan), May 21: Nine Afghan soldiers who were trapped in Taliban-held territory following an ambush were killed after holding out against the rebels for nearly a day, an army commander said today. The army has already reported that four other soldiers were killed, 24 wounded and several missing after the Taliban ambush in volatile Helmand province yesterday. Nine of those missing were later found to have been killed in fierce fighting in the restive province's Sangin district, said a military commander from the region.
"Nine soldiers were trapped in the area. They resisted until about four o'clock in the afternoon but finally they were killed by the Taliban," the commander said on condition of anonymity. About 20 Taliban fighters were killed or wounded in the fighting, defence ministry spokesman General Mohammad Zahir Azimi told reporters on Sunday, refusing to immediately comment on the Afghan army casualties.
The militants ambushed a 20-vehicle Afghan army convoy that was leaving another battle in Helmand. Only six vehicles managed to escape, leaving the remainder behind with about 50 men, the commander said today, fearing heavy casualties.
Hundreds of extra forces were then rushed into the area, and it is now controlled by the army, Defense Ministry spokesman Gen. Zahir Azimi said.
Militants ambushed another Afghan army convoy in southern Zabul province Saturday and four rebels were killed as the troops returned fire, Raufi said. The U.S. soldier was killed Friday in Uruzgan province, also in the south, the military said in a statement. Six soldiers were wounded and in stable condition.
Lt. Tamara Lawrence, a U.S. military spokeswoman, said the U.S. soldiers were conducting a joint patrol with Afghan forces when they encountered enemy fighters about 10 a.m. Friday.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 09:55 ||
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#1
Nothing is quite as discouraging as a small band of men that will fight and fight well to the bitter end, taking two or three times their number of the enemy.
That is, not being able to wipe out even a small band without suffering punitive casualities yourself leads to confusion and doubt.
#2
small bands always have the initial edge in an ambush - they choose the site/time/setting. Apparently the Afghans have learned to whack the ambushers after the initial volley, huh?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 14:39 Comments ||
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Taliban militants ambushed two Afghan army convoys in the countrys south, sparking gunfights that killed 25 militants, five Afghan soldiers and a civilian, the Afghan military said on Saturday. About 50 Afghan soldiers were reported trapped in a Taliban-held territory after militants ambushed a military convey of around 20 vehicles. Fighting also erupted between the insurgents and US forces in the south and an American soldier was killed and six others wounded, the US military said.
The latest bloodletting comes just days after a 24-hour storm of violence across Afghanistan that killed some 120 people. The fiercest fighting was in Helmand province. It erupted late on Friday and six militants and an Afghan soldier were killed, said Gen Rehmatullah Raufi, the head of the Afghan militarys southern region. It continued into Saturday morning with militants ambushing a large army convoy, setting off a gunfight that left 15 Taliban and four Afghan soldiers dead, said an army commander. The 20-vehicle Afghan army convoy was attacked after leaving the scene of a battle late Friday in which one soldier and six Taliban were killed, a general said. Only six vehicles had managed to escape, leaving behind the remainder and about 50 men, an army officer said. The men were cut off from the main unit and their fate was not known, he said. An explosion ripped through a vehicle carrying former warlord Amanullah Khan in Herat, wounding him. Two French commandos were killed on Saturday in combat in Afghanistan, a French military source said.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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"Taliban trap 50 Afghan troops" doesn't make a lot of sense. With air power, sounds more like a double envelopment of the Pakistanis/Taliban to me.
Posted by: ed ||
05/21/2006 8:26 Comments ||
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With air power, sounds more like a double envelopment of the Pakistanis/Taliban to me.
If, they had radios and requested help. They might have tried to handle it themselves or thought someone else called 911.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 11:40 Comments ||
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Baido 21 May. 06 ( Sh.M.Network) Somali cabinet has approved today with a majority vote, a proposal of deploying forces from Uganda and Sudan in Somalia.
I hear the Lord's Resistance Army and Janjaweed troops are available
Somali ministers gave their vote to the previous suggestion of the parliament, and it was asking peacekeeping forces from Uganda and Sudan to be deployed in Somalia to participate bringing law and order back in the country.
Cuz Uganda and Sudan are such shining examples of......?
During the meeting, Somalia ministers also discussed several other issues concerning the establishment of Local authorities for Somalia regions, home security affairs as well as foreign intervention.
Somali ministers agreed that all three debated issues to be approved giving their major vote to what they called the deployment of peacekeeping forces from Uganda and Sudan. The issue has been debated by the parliament several times but most of the members opposed the deployment of forces from IGAD Member nations, particularly frontline countries including Ethiopia, Kenya and Djibouti.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 13:53 ||
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? What side will these troups be on if and when they ever get there?
An independent western security expert for terrorists activities said the recent confrontations in Somali capital Mogadishu were organized by Al-Qaeda operatives to have settlement the in lawless and war-torn country (Somalia) on Saturday. In an interview with the London based Arabic news paper Alqudus Alarabiya, the official who asked not to be identified, said Al-Qaeda network conducts bigger operations in the horn of African nation and attempts to create new insurgents in Somalia.
Reports issued by western intelligences say Al-Qaeda is determined to occupy Somalia capital Mogadishu as their launch pad for terrorist acts against the countries in the region and western interests. The western expert stressed that Al-Qaeda had long time dreamt of having an influence in Somalia since early 1990s when Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden visited Sudan. The western intelligences indicated some of Al-Qaeda operatives recently reached Somalia and began to send messages to terrorist cells in Arab countries to join their Islamic brothers in Somalia. It is believed that Al-Qaeda military operative Abu Ubeydah Albunshere who drowned in Lake Victoria had Al-Qaedas strategy of basing in Somalia to launch operations. Before his death, Abu-Ubeydah wanted to take advantage in the long lawless coast of Somalia in a bid to establish Al-Qeada stronghold in the horn of African nation. The US intelligence officials in horn of Africa began mass movements to prevent the power extension of Al-Qaeda network in the region as combined task forces keep an eye on the international and Somalia water.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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"Your country is a 3rd world shithole! It's perfect, we'll take it"
At least four people got injured when a fire at a munitions dump sparked a wave of explosions outside the southern Sudanese capital of Juba on Friday, witnesses and U.N. staff said. The fire caused intermittent explosions for about 90 minutes from 4 p.m. (1300 GMT) and sent a plume of smoke into the air on the edge of Juba, where the government of southern Sudan is based. However, the cause of the fire was not immediately established. Speculation on whether this explosion was an attack was cleared by a spokesman for the former rebel Southern People's Liberation Movement (SPLM) who went on local radio to reassure residents it was not an attack.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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So remember kids - fire and ammunition don't mix!
Dozens were killed in a major attack by government-backed militias on Shearia town in Sudan's Darfur region, the latest in a wave of raids since a peace deal was signed earlier this month, rebels said on Saturday. A spokesman for the main rebel faction group who signed the deal in the Nigerian capital Abuja on May 5 told Reuters from the field in Darfur that despite the agreement, heavy attacks have continued on the ground. "The attack on Shearia was yesterday the Janjaweed have attacked many many places in South Darfur despite the peace deal," al-Tayyib Khamis said. Shearia is in South Darfur. "There are about 20-25 dead and many injured but it's unclear as yet how many," he said.
The government and the Minni Arcua Minnawi faction group signed a peace deal on May 5 under intense global pressure. But two other factions at the talks did not sign saying it was not fair. Thousands of Darfuris have since been demonstrating angrily against the agreement. Arab militias, known locally as Janjaweed, were not part of the peace talks in Abuja. The United Nations said as Khartoum armed them to fight the mostly non-Arab rebels, the government represented them. Khartoum admits arming some tribes to fight the rebels but denies links to the Janjaweed, saying they are outlaws.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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So, where's the media coverage, and where's the outrage? Dumb, self-answering question, I know, but this p*sses me off.
The Algerian army is surrounding a group of 60 terrorists in Mdeyyeh state, 90 kilometers west of the capital, Algiers, a security source said Saturday. The source said in press remarks the army has been launching a military operation since late last week by tightening control on movement and supply of the terrorists. The operation, he added, claimed the lives of three terrorists.
The source said the terrorists were members of the Salafi Group for Preaching and Fighting. The group members are split because some of them have abondoned their arms as part of the government's peace and conciliation charter. Meanwhile, the source said the army killed 10 terrorists in Jeijel state, 360 KMs east of Algiers.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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Hopefully truly surrounded, not 'Saudi-style' surrounded...
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Sunday he believes journalists can be prosecuted for publishing classified information, citing an obligation to national security. Hello jailtime!
The nation's top law enforcer also said the government will not hesitate to track telephone calls made by reporters as part of a criminal leak investigation, but officials would not do so routinely and randomly. heh heh
"There are some statutes on the book which, if you read the language carefully, would seem to indicate that that is a possibility," Gonzales said, referring to prosecutions. "We have an obligation to enforce those laws. We have an obligation to ensure that our national security is protected." duty above pulitzers for false euro-prison stories...
In recent months, journalists have been called into court to testify as part of investigations into leaks, including the unauthorized disclosure of a CIA operative's name as well as the National Security Agency's warrantless eavesdropping program.
Gonzales said he would not comment specifically on whether The New York Times should be prosecuted for disclosing the NSA program last year based on classified information. but they should
He also denied that authorities would randomly check journalists' records on domestic-to-domestic phone calls in an effort to find journalists' confidential sources.
"We don't engage in domestic-to-domestic surveillance without a court order," Gonzales said, under a "probable cause" legal standard. but we can...yes, David Gregory, we can
But he added that the First Amendment right of a free press should not be absolute when it comes to national security. If the government's probe into the NSA leak turns up criminal activity, prosecutors have an "obligation to enforce the law."
"It can't be the case that that right trumps over the right that Americans would like to see, the ability of the federal government to go after criminal activity," Gonzales told ABC's "This Week."
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 12:53 ||
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Substitute "are being" for "can be" and note that the trials will be held in closed secure session, and we'll have something to talk about. It's a good first step to publicly opine, but it is nothing until you act.
#7
If I were the AG, I would not gab about it to some worthless journalist. I would build a strong case and nail someone with it. THAT would get the message across. When the indictment and arrest come down, then make a statement (bulletized, heh) stating facts and standards applied.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2006 14:12 Comments ||
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Alaska Paul - spot on! Talk is cheap, send some MSM journo to jail.
#9
Dammit! Can we get a NSFYE (Not Safe for You Eyes) in the headline at least! Damn that's a scary pic - I've seen better looking Orcs...
And its about frigging time we start prosecuting reporters (and their 'anonymous sources') for these leaks. And note that the 1st admendment specificly says 'press' - I don't know if I would classify the NYT as 'press' - more like 'propaganda outlet'.
Every right (including the 1st) comes with it a certain amount of 'responsibility' which the yellow journalism which consitutes most of the MSM these days do not stand up to. The right to bear arms does not extend to felons. The right to assemble does not extend to rioters (except in Seattle). The right to free press should not be extended to obvious 'propaganda engines' such as the NYT, LAT, CNN, ABC, etc...
Don't think it is such a good idea to advertise capabilities like this. They should recall how boasting of the intercepts of Osama's phone caused him to stop using it, a bitter blow to the WoT
Minutes after a bomb exploded recently in Kashmir and wounded Indian soldiers, a senior member of an Islamist rebel group called local newspaper offices to claim responsibility for the blast.
A few hours later, troops smashed the door of his hideout and arrested the militant "commander" after a brief gun battle.
Indian intelligence officers credited the bust in south Kashmir to the tracking of his mobile phone.
Until a few years ago, intelligence officials resisted attempts by the federal government to lift a ban on cell phone services in the region, fearing mobile phones would aid militants in planning attacks.
Now they know better and security officials say troops have eliminated many militants by tracking their mobile phones and tapping conservations, citing the example in south Kashmir.
"Such a quick strike operation was just impossible three years ago," a senior intelligence official told Reuters.
"We tracked the calls made from his mobile to local newspapers which led to his arrest and that of some other suspects."
India has been battling a 16-year Muslim separatist revolt in its part of Kashmir. Tens of thousands of people have died in shootings, bombings and other violence.
In 2003, New Delhi allowed mobile services, eight years after the rest of India, now the world's fastest-growing market for cellular services.
At that time, India said it was a move to win the hearts and minds of Kashmiris, weary and alienated after years of conflict in India's only Muslim-majority state which is also claimed by neighbor Pakistan.
After three years, there are now more than 850,000 mobile phone users in a state of 10 million people. And the spin-off for anti-insurgency operations has enthused security officials.
"So far, we have arrested or eliminated dozens of them (militants) including many senior commanders through mobile-tracking," the intelligence officer said.
"It is easier to track them if they use mobile phones."
BOON OR BANE?
Elsewhere across some trouble spots around South Asia, mobile phone services are still seen as a bane.
In Sri Lanka, which is teetering on the brink of a return to civil war, Tamil Tiger rebels do not allow mobile phone services in areas held by them.
"We do not allow mobile telephones because of security concerns," said rebel media coordinator Daya Master. The Tigers fear they could be tracked and targeted through mobile signals. So they use satellite phones instead.
In Nepal, the ousted royalist government of King Gyanendra resorted to shutting down mobile services when the monarch's opponents planned big rallies against his rule to foil the protests.
Indian security officials admit their initial resistance to mobile phones in Kashmir was misplaced.
"Earlier, we thought it would help terrorists in their communications and help their subversive activities," army spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel V.K. Batra said.
"But it is proving counterproductive to them."
Militants also use satellite phones from their forest hideouts. But security forces say they are able to intercept or jam such communication.
Police in Kashmir say mobile phones have also saved the lives of hundreds of people trapped in buildings stormed by suicide attackers.
Hostages have often communicated with the police through mobiles and managed to guide security forces to rescue them amid gunfire, said K. Rajindra Kumar, a top police officer.
"This is the success story of mobile phones in anti-militancy operations," Kumar told Reuters.
(Additional reporting by Simon Gardner in COLOMBO)
Posted by: john ||
05/21/2006 11:02 ||
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Unidentified men fired at least eight rockets at Frontier Corps (FC) check posts in Dera Bugti on Saturday. "FC check posts came under rocket attack in Loti, Pir Koh and Chashma on Saturday," sources told Daily Times. They said that the FC personnel retaliated to the attack. However, no loss of life or property was reported. "The rockets came from the mountainous areas. The attackers retreated when the FC personnel fired back," the sources said. The Dera Bugti administration has started investigating the matter.
Also on Saturday, the FC seized 489 kilogrammes of explosive devices and 29 rifles on Saturday following a raid in Dera Bugti. According to the details, an FC team headed by Bamboor Rifles Commandant Colonel Furkhanuddin seized explosive devices during a raid in the Patukh area of Dera Bugti. "We came to know that terrorists had dumped a large quantity of weapons and were planning to cause massive damage," said FC spokesman Omer Farooq. Dera Bugti District Coordination Officer Abdul Samad Lasi told the media that the operation was a "great achievement", as the men who possessed the weapons were planning further destruction in the area.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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Two paramilitary soldiers and a militant were killed in a grenade attack at a security checkpost in North Waziristan's Mirali town on Saturday, officials said. Witnesses said that a man hurled a hand grenade at a paramilitary checkpost in the Hurmuz area, killing two jawans on the spot and wounding another. The attacker, later identified as a local tribesman, was killed when troops retaliated.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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Coalition Forces Kill Two Al-Qaida Terrorists
5/20/2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq On May 17, acting on timely intelligence reports, Coalition Forces located and killed two al-Qaida associates who were involved in targeting Iraqis, and Iraqi Security and Coalition Forces. One of the terrorists killed, Abu Ahad, managed foreign fighter facilitation and also provided a modicum of command and control between several terrorist cells operating throughout the vicinity of Fallujah, Baghdad, Yusifiyah, Taji and Mahmudiyah.
The name of the other al-Qaida member killed in the same raid is unknown, but intelligence officials confirmed his involvement in coordinating terrorist operations, as well as his association with Abu Ahad.
After killing Abu Ahad, Coalition Forces conducted several follow-on operations based on information and reporting that led to the al-Qaida leader and foreign fighter facilitator.
No civilians were injured during this operation.
Two British soldiers were wounded in an attack in Basra, southern Iraq, that targeted their patrol vehicle, said the British Defense Ministry Saturday. A ministry spokesman said in a press statement that the soldiers had been on a routine mission when they were ambushed and attacked with hand grenades and explosives, but said that the wounds they sustained were not serious and that the had been taken on the military base for treatment. The vehicle had burned completely as a result of the attack, he said.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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Got a feeling the Brits have got a Mogadishu Moment coming one day.
#3
Excellent point, Grunter. And soon, too. Knocking off the Mullahs would alter the equation dramatically. Which will come first? Probably the Mogadishu Moment.
Posted by: random styling ||
05/21/2006 2:31 Comments ||
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An Iraqi citizen was killed and another injured on Saturday in a Bomb explosion southwest of Kirkuk in northern Iraq, said a security source. The source told KUNA that the bomb exploded on the highway between Kirkuk-Riyadh.
A similar bombing targeted an Iraqi media Network vehicle and caused the injury of a journalist driving the car. In another development, an Iraqi child was abducted by unidentified gunmen in the northeastern part of Mosul. Meanwhile, a joint Patrol between the Iraqi police and The Multi-National Force (MNF) managed to locate a weapon cache east of Mosul. The joint force found weapons and disguising equipment in the hideout which might have been prepared for use in future terrorist attacks.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
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The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for Sunday morning's Kassam rocket attack on a Sderot school, in which a rocket landed in an empty classroom while students were in the synagogue reciting the morning prayers. The classroom and the nearby restrooms sustained heavy damage. According to Army Radio, many parents arrived at the 'Netiv Yeshivati' school in order to take their children home. Shai Yisarel, who was in an eyewitness to the attack, described events at the school, "Suddenly we heard the 'Red Dawn' warning that a Kassam was heading our way. A sharp sound of a whistle followed. This is a miracle and we are all very emotional at present."
In response to the attack Defense Minister Amir Peretz ordered senior defense ministry officials to prepare a plan for the immediate protection of schools in Sderot, Israel Radio reported. NU-NRP MK Effi Eitam said Sunday morning in response to the Kassam rocket that landed on a Sderot school that the disengagement from Gaza had turned out to be a "gamble with Sderot children's lives." Eitam added that if Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "intended to risk the children of Kfar Saba and Netanya, it might be better for him to travel to Las Vegas than to Washington."
The IDF responded with artillery fire toward launching areas in northern Gaza, the army and witnesses said. Palestinian medics said that one Palestinian was moderately injured from the artillery. The IDF, however, said troops were not firing at the time the man was hit.
Earlier, another rocket launched from the northern Gaza Strip landed near Gevim junction in the western Negev on Sunday morning. Two women were treated for shock at the scene.
In another incident, Palestinian medics said a Palestinian woman was killed during an IDF raid before dawn Sunday in Nablus. The Aksa Martyrs' Brigades operatives accused IDF troops of firing at the woman as she looked out of her window. The IDF said troops were fired at during an arrest operation but did not return fire. The soldiers later withdrew without making arrests, the IDF reported.
And in more news:
GAZA, May 21 (KUNA) -- A Palestinian civilian was injured Sunday in the town of Beit Hanoun north of Gaza in a rocket attack by Israeli helicopters. Eyewitnesses said that the Israeli raid targeted the College of Agriculture of Al-Azhar University in Beit Hanoun.
Meanwhile, Israeli sources reported that Israeli navy ships opened fire against Palestinian fishing boats in the Mediterranean Sea near the Gaza shores. Army sources claimed that two Palestinian boats crossed the three kilometers zone permitted for fishing, forcing Israeli ships opened fire against them as a warning.(end) zt.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 11:02 ||
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push the Paleos back a mile every time there's a rocket attack and pretty son Gaza will be two blocks wide
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 11:38 Comments ||
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yeah i would suggest the paleos keep their kassams too themself and leave the kids alone. Israel won't hesitate too take the gloves off
Car swarm photos and video at the link
VIDEO - The Israel Air Force on Saturday evening assassinated a senior member of the Islamic Jihad's military wing Muhammad Dahdouh, an expert in producing al-Quds rockets. A Palestinian woman, Hanan Aman, her 4-year-old son Mohanad and his grandmother Naima Aman were also killed in the blast. Three people were wounded, including the child's sister. Talking to Ynet, military sources confirmed that the IAF fired at a car in Gaza. Palestinian sources reported that the blast occurred near the home of Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar.
According to the IDF, the fire was targeted at a senior Islamic Jihad member who was involved in firing Qassam rockets at Israel and in other terror activities. IDF officials said that Dahdouh was involved in the preparation of Grad rockets, the Katyusha rockets fired at Israel recently. The last Katyusha was fired last week, landing near a chicken coop in the southern community of Nativ Haasara.
Defense Minister Amir Peretz recently instructed the army to focus its efforts in operations against Islamic Jihad members and operate against the Grad threat. Defense establishment officials estimated that the terror organizations currently hold 10 to 20 similar rockets. Some of them are apparently improvised, but definitely hold a higher risk than Qassams in terms of range and the amount of explosives.
Islamic Jihad officials said that Dahdouh was one of the organization's prominent leaders and an expert in producing the organization's al-Quds rockets. Dahdouh was the person responsible for issuing statements on behalf of the organization, in which it cleamed responsibility for launching rockets and responded to IDF assassinations. A spokesman for the al-Quds Brigades, the Islamic Jihad's military wing, declared that "the revenge for the killing of Muhammad Dahdouh will come soon and will be painful."
Muhammad Dahdhouh is the brother of Khaled Dahdouh, who was killed several months ago by an explosive device planted in his car by Israeli security forces.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 10:54 ||
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For a bunch of impoverished Paleos in Gaza, these guys rolled around in a nice new vehicle. Well, it used to be a nice vehicle.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2006 11:21 Comments ||
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only the best for Car Swarm Candidates
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 11:41 Comments ||
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#3
I wonder if the engine is still salvagable.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2006 11:56 Comments ||
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#4
Do you think that, if theses engines are salvageable, they could somehow be send to power theses engineless armored vehicles in Somalia? That would be a nice example of Islamic Solidarity(tm), wouldn't it?
GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian security forces said on Sunday they had foiled an attempt to kill a top commander to President Mahmoud Abbas, a day after another of his allies was wounded in a suspected assassination bid. A Palestinian security officer said a bomb weighing 70 kg (154 lbs) was found outside the Gaza Strip home of Rashid Abu Shbak, a member of Abbas's Fatah movement who is in charge of several branches of the Palestinian security services.
That's a nice big firecracker
The discovery comes amid surging tensions between Fatah, the long-dominant Palestinian faction, and Hamas, an Islamic militant movement that defeated Fatah in elections in January.
In recent days, Hamas, which now runs the Palestinian government, has deployed its own 3,000-strong force on the streets of Gaza, setting up a showdown with the Palestinian police force, which largely remains loyal to Fatah. Low-level skirmishes between the rival parties have given rise to fears of a civil war among Palestinian groups, which include not only Hamas and Fatah, but breakaway factions of both movements and the staunchly militant group Islamic Jihad.
Me, I'm afraid I'll run out of popcorn
The discovery of the bomb followed an explosion in Gaza on Saturday that badly wounded Palestinian intelligence chief Tareq Abu Rajab, another Abbas ally. Abbas called the attack an attempted assassination. An aide to Rajab was killed. It was not clear who was responsible for the blast. One senior security official in the West Bank indicated that Hamas militants might be responsible, but Hamas denied involvement.
al-Qaida has piped up and sez they dun it
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 10:47 ||
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Al Qaida on Sunday claimed responsibility for an assassination attempt on the chief of the Palestinian Authority General Intelligence Services Tarek Abu Rajab on the previous day. In one of its internet sites the Palestinian branch of the international terrorist organization also issued threats against PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and other senior Fatah officials.
"We'll kill'em all! Yarrrr!"
Abu Rajab, an Abbas loyalist, was wounded in a blast that took place at a government building in Gaza on Saturday. One of his bodyguards was killed in the explosion and 10 others were wounded. Immediately after the explosion, several theories regarding the circumstances circulated in the Palestinian territories, including an assassination attempt or an accident that occurred when one of Abu Rajab's bodyguards supposedly dropped a grenade in an elevator.
Hamas may have been the most immediate suspect of the supposed assassination attempt, as heavy tension existed between the movement and Abbas. The organization urged the Palestinian public not to rush to conclusions about the responsibility for the explosion, and to wait until an investigation that Abbas launched would yield results.
Perhaps they made the claim for al-Qaida?
Last month, an unknown group, believed to be headed by al-Qaida in Iraq's leader Abu Musab Zarqawi, distributed leaflets threatening PA officials.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 10:39 ||
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Three cars belonging to the al-Jazeera news network were torched in Ramallah on Saturday night. Eyewitnesses said masked gunmen were seen fleeing the area.
"Who were those masked men?"
The cars were parked in the underground parking lot of the City Center Building in downtown Ramallah, where al-Jazeera has a large bureau on the eighth floor. Walid Omari, chief correspondent of al-Jazeera in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said the building was evacuated of all its occupants because of the fire. He said he did not know who was behind the fire.
"I dunno. I'm just a journalist, why would I know?"
But sources in the city told The Jerusalem Post that Fatah supporters were behind the torching of the al-Jazeera cars. The sources said the Fatah supporters were angry with al-Jazeera because it had not covered an anti-Hamas demonstration in the city by Fatah earlier in the day.
#3
Comment #1 is perfectly appropriate. Many of us come from reasonably civilized cultures, where there is very little chance that any of us will go to the local news bureau, and torch three cars belonging to a news organization with which we are dissatisfied. Only barbarian thugs behave like that. As far as Al Jizz goes - hey, you lay down with dogs, you get fleas.
If I'm blue force, you better beleve I'm breaking out the popcorn any time I get to watch an episode of Red-on-Red "Molotov-sex".
My only regret is that the Al Jizz propaganda-meisters weren't in their vehicles at the time.
#4
Wishing for the slow evisceration, flaying, and then necklacing of the Al-Jiz boyz would have been their level. Cheering the destruction of their vehicles is simply rational joy at the chickens coming home to roost in Paleoland.
Posted by: 49 Pan ||
05/21/2006 9:08 Comments ||
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#9
If they will do this to Al Jizz, imagine what would they do to CNN?
Right.
Posted by: john ||
05/21/2006 9:22 Comments ||
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#10
#2 borgidiot
We are nothing like them - and won't become so.
If we should end up having to wipe them out in order to survive ourselves, we'd feel bad about it. If they manage to wipe us out - which they don't have to do in order to survive - they'll revel in our deaths and have a non-stop party. Like they do now whenever they murder another Jew.
Al-Jiz pretends to be "unbiased" and "western" but they're not on the side of the civilized - any more than the rest of the MSM, unfortunately. But Al-Jiz lives there and has better access to the terrorists than westerners do.
Ya' wanna suck up to the terrorists crocodile in the hopes it will eat you last, go ahead - just remember that it will still eat you.
And enjoy the snack.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/21/2006 10:11 Comments ||
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#11
If they will do this to Al Jizz, imagine what would they do to CNN?
Nothing. CNN is careful to always do what America's enemies want.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
05/21/2006 10:15 Comments ||
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#12
There is almost certainly more to this story than what the JeruPost reports.
AlJ correspondents have been lording it over the local crowd saying something like 'we get paid but you don't, nah, nah, nah, nah'.
#16
Borgboy - looks like you're in the minority on this one. We should always be sure not to sink to their level, but I'd hold off checking until the WOT is done...but that's just me, and I'm a first rate asshole
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 12:10 Comments ||
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#17
Al- Jizz gets no sympathy from me and I will feel bad when the war is over and we won
#18
There's a version of just war theory that talks about things like this, like the firebombing of Dresden, like the use of nukes on Japan. It basically goes like this:
Sometimes you have to do awful things in order to prevent worse things from happening. That they are awful shouldn't prevent us from doing them. That they are necessary doesn't get us off the hook from admitting they are awful.
Posted by: past the tipping point ||
05/21/2006 12:25 Comments ||
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#19
We are nothing like them - and won't become so.
Agree with the former.
Don't be so sure about the latter. It's a balancing act -- this country and our people can lose our moral center just as easily as any other, IF we don't take care to maintain it.
What we are in the early stages of is going to challenge that balance almost to the breaking point, and maybe beyond.
Posted by: past the tipping point ||
05/21/2006 12:26 Comments ||
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#20
I suspect that, although we may become more brutal (which, it could be argued, is being "more like them"), we won't embrace fascism, nihilism and death worship. At least, the brutal tactics which led us to victory in WW2, did not lead us to become the moral equivalent of Nazis or emperor worshipers. What it should have taught us is that failure to deal with the problem in a harsh enough manner early, led to our having to become much more savage later, in order to eliminate the threat to our society.
The Dalal Al-Maghribi Brigades, a military wing of the Fatah Movement on Saturday said its fighters fired two locally-made 'Ammar 2' rockets in the direction of the Israeli settlement of Nahel Ouz, east of Gaza City. A statement by the brigades said the shelling came to retaliate to Israeli crimes, the last of which was the assassination of the Al-Quds Brigades' leader Mohammad Dahdouh earlier on Saturday.
Posted by: Fred ||
05/21/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
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#1
Dalal Al-Maghribi Brigades
That's a new one. fired two locally-made 'Ammar 2' rockets
That's a new one, too.
BANGKOK, Thailand -- A Buddhist teacher who was beaten into a coma by a mob demanding the release of Islamic insurgents has only a slim chance of survival, her doctor said Saturday. Juling Kamphongmoon sustained severe injuries, including blood clots in her brain, when she was beaten by Muslim villagers Friday who were holding two other women teachers hostage at a government school in southern Thailand. "There is slim chance that she will survive. I would like to urge Thais throughout the country to pray for a miracle to happen to Juling," Dr. Sumet Phirawut told a news conference.
More than 200 villagers surrounded the school in Narathiwat province to demand the release of two suspected Muslim rebels arrested earlier the same day in connection with the killing of two marines. The hostages were held about three hours before being released. Another teacher was slightly injured in the protest.
Last September, villagers in the same district held hostage two marines who were stabbed to death. The villagers believed that they had been involved in the killing of two of their fellow residents at a village teashop. Police have arrested dozens people in connection with the killings.
More than 1,300 people have been killed in violence in the south since a separatist movement flared in January 2004. The country's three southernmost provinces of Narathiwat, Yala and Pattani are the only Muslim-majority areas in Thailand, which is predominantly Buddhist. Southerners have long complained of mistreatment by authorities and discrimination, especially in jobs and education.
Not that I'd advocate knuckling under to thugs, but has anyone in Thailand considering lopping off these three provinces and building a big fence?
Supplement 7:40 pm CDT: I've set the flag to save this thread as a classic.
I appreciate Dave D.'s list of options. I'm also pretty much in lotp's corner. I'd prefer not to commit gruesome acts, but as Old Spook notes, the Islamicists started this, not me: however gruesome it gets, they're not going to get me, my country and (especially) my daughter. The liberals who find this distasteful had better find a way to shut the Islamicists down; if they can't, I'll ratchet my way up Dave's list til I find something that does the job.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/21/2006 1:40 Comments ||
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#2
Nope - they need to go across the border into Indonesia/Malaysia and start whacking the instigators there.
You know, the same ones that called us assholes in Aceh while we were digging them out from underneath the tsunami wreckage. Yep, *those* Muslims. Same ones that were brutalizing East Timor, and are now terrorizing and preparing to commit genocide against the native (Christian) populations in West Papua (on the island of New Guniea), and lending fiscal support to Abu Sayyaf in the southern philipines.
#3
Sterilize the village after removing all the females and childen under 12. Leave nothing, not even a bone fragment or grain of cement. Even the "religion of peace" understands that kind of language and action. Repeat the treatment as necessary.
Posted by: SPoD ||
05/21/2006 2:48 Comments ||
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#4
Note to Thais: either resist with serious punitive force - or submit. You're being bled by your lousy political leadership. Choose someone who will defend you. Or you can do that submit thing.
Posted by: random styling ||
05/21/2006 2:52 Comments ||
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#5
Living in Bangkok, I always wonder about how little outrage is shown against the clear-cut campaign of extremely deliberate "ethnic cleansing" ongoing in three provinces of Thailand. Locally, I have seen the English translations of the Pattani-Muslim "game plan." It is very simple The Muslims set up Madrasses to educate (indoctrinate) their children. Then, they set out to terrorize and close every non- Muslim shool. That's it. Their rationale is that if they can make Buddhist parents afraid to send their children to school, then those parents will move away - because parents will not allow their children to go unschooled. If the Muslims can drive all the fmilies with school-age children out of "their" provices, they have won - because all the other local Buddhists who do not have school-age children will eventually die, leaving the provinces ethnically "pure".
I am not exaggerating one iota. In many districts, Thai Army soldiers must escort Thai teachers to and from work, and also escort students to and from school. Many dozens of teachers, principals, and other school administrators have been murdered - and attacks continue to occur weekly - all seeking to intimidate surviving Buddhist teachers into giving up and fleeing.
It is incredibly cruel and vicious, but - unfortunately - almost certain to succeed in accomplishing its evil objective.
I cannot imagine what keeps low-paid Thai elementary school teachers in the three troubled provinces on the job. Even if they stay, they will slowly be attritted away by ambushes and attacks.
The Madrasses here are systematically devoted to perpetuating the Muslim violence against their Buddhist neighbors.
Posted by: random styling ||
05/21/2006 3:05 Comments ||
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#7
Make that we can thank the Saudis for it - there and here at home. Elsewhere we can thank the Iranian Mullahs for it. Everywhere Islam in sufficient numbers touches civilization, we have this cruel shit - or worse.
I'm thinking enough already.
Posted by: random styling ||
05/21/2006 3:19 Comments ||
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#8
Burn the Madrassas even with the ground. For every Buddhist teacher assulted or killed 5 muslim "teachers" suffer teh same fate. Play their game on them.
Import Buddhist into the region and out populate the muslims. Arm every Buddhist that can will carry a gun. The "milk of human kindness" isn't going to work here.
I personally am all out of 'kindness and charity" for islamic expansionists or those who support them. This should be a diminishing sect.
Posted by: SPoD ||
05/21/2006 3:48 Comments ||
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#9
SPoD, won't happen, most probably, and most unfortunately.
#10
And as that poor woman, well, I hope she recovers, but alas, it's probably better to hope she dies peacefully, and that her family copes as well as possible. Damn.
#12
Destroy the madrasses, with the Muslim children inside. Past time to go Viking on these barbaric throw-backs.
Islam is a pestilence. Muslims are the carriers. Ten years ago I never would have thought it possible that I would advocate the extermination of an entire group of people.
#13
There's a simple answer: run 'em. Tell the Muslims in the three provinces that their religion is banned as a terrorist organization, they themselves are now denied any of the privileges of Thai citizenship, and the Thai Government officially suggests they need to move to Malaysia to be with their coreligionists because Muslims are no longer welcome in Thailand.
The Thai Government should also declare martial law in the provinces, blow up all mosques, summarily execute anyone suspected of assisting the rebels, and deport their extended families immediately. Go draconian on them and teach them a lesson they'll understand. Anything other than extreme harshness the Muzzy bastards mistake for weakness.
Posted by: mac ||
05/21/2006 8:06 Comments ||
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#14
How many "peaceful" Muslims does it take to beat a small woman to death?
#15
Manolo - I identify with the feelings expresed in your post. I remember ten years back or so, watching video footage of uniformed soldiers (Croatian?) in Kosovo, rounding up all the men of a village - ordinary looking enough civilians - tying their hands behind their backs, and then marching them out of the village up hillside trail into the nearby forest. It was maybe 50 men, ages 18-50. The commentator then remarked that these were ethnic Albanian Muslims being marched away, and they were never seen alive again.
As a former US Army Infantry Officer, I was absolutely disgusted with this sequence, and - as I watched - was muttering under my breath that the leaders of those troops needed to be hunted down and strung up for actions of genocide.
Fast-forward to about three years ago, and I found myself once again seeing the exact same video footage (in connection with some ongoing trial in Europe). And - as I watched, I remembered my feelings from long ago. But - I no longer felt the same. All I could think of now was - I guess that military unit was more enlightened into the true nature of the Islamic pestilence than I was when I originally criticized them - and I now sympathized with the defendants.
And - I will admit - I was shocked by my own reversal of outlook - and realized that I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action to preserve a civilized way of life for posterity.
The one other time that I really gained an internal revelation was after reading a L-O-N-G summary of exceptionally heinous Muslim atrocities - and I started thinking of the most outlandishly cruel and evil creations of fiction - when writers of horror films, or science fiction films wanted to outdo themselves by creating the most hideously cruel characters they could imagine. I was specifically thinking of the demonic characters in the "Hellraiser" series by Clive Cussler, and also the fictitous race of evil beings from the "Firefly" series - called The Reavers - and of dear old Hannibal Lechter.
And - all I did was compare the list of recent real atrocities committed in the name of Islam to the fictitous cruelties of the most evil characters that fiction could devise - and I could scarcely detect any difference.
For me to have become so highly polarized is absolutely astounding to me - I did not think I could despise any belief system so thoroughly.
If even one or two percent of the non-Islamic population of Earth ever becomes half as hostile as I now am toward Islam, the Muslims are in deep shit. 'Couldn't happen quickly enough, either.
#16
I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action to preserve a civilized way of life for posterity.
Lone Ranger, you don't have to become evil to fight evil. Most Muslims just want to raise their children and have them go to school and live happy lives. Don't forget that. You need to separate the good from the bad.
The ancient Egyptians used to believe that when you die your heart was weighed to see if you were more evil than good. I kinda like that analogy (even though I'm a Christian).
I'm all for standing against evil. But you're going to the dark side - pull back!!
#17
Most Muslims just want to raise their children and have them go to school and live happy lives. Don't forget that. You need to separate the good from the bad.
Um, when the Muslims make the effort to separate themselves from the bad, I'll feel a hell of a lot better. Look at the story from yesterday, about the Columbus-area imam who talks peace-and-coexistence in English and jihad-and-brimstone in Arabic. It took MEMRI to expose him; it should have been the community.
If a Christian pastor started spouting Christian-identity rhetoric, and the congregation did nothing about it, what would we think about them when it became public? I'd assume they tolerated, or approved, the pastor's opinions.
Why we keep giving Muslims more leeway than we give Christians is a mystery to me.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
05/21/2006 11:12 Comments ||
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#18
I'm with Manolo and the Ranger and others. I am not comfortable waiting until politics has been played and we are years deeper in this swamp, I want to put an end to Islam NOW. I can read the phalking writing on the wall, why can't the democrats or feminists or collage professors ?
Let's roll !
#19
The thing that is astounding to me is that these incidents are NEVER discussed in any depth or at all in the MSM. The ultimate cause is found by FOLLOWING THE MONEY. Saudi money goes to so-called charities. The so-called charities send funds to jihadi groups or madarassas. The jihadis, well, jihad with the money. The madarassas take young, sponge-like minds and indoctrinate them into being little psychopaths who are incapable of empathy. Their young minds are WIRED to hate and be fanatics for a twisted cause. Look at Pakistan: thousands of these schools set up. Look at Thailand. Sh*t, look at Europe in their Islamic ghettos, look at Britain. And while you are at it, look at the US. Read some translations of what the Imams are saying in Saudi-finance mosques in this country. This is simple infiltration.
After 9-11, when we started seeing the picture of where all this was coming from, we needed to have given the Taliban 72 hours to come up with Binny and his merry men, or take out the Taliban apparatus right there.
Then we needed to summon the Saudi ambassador and tell him that this financing will stop NOW or we will take out the financiers.
These people, fed by oil money from the civilized world, "our" money, so to speak, are systematically working to destroy the good of what thousands of years of civilization have produced. We are fighting our enemy that we have financed. Everything else is treating the symptoms of the disease.
Our problem is a lack of leadership in facing this real threat, doing something about it, and COMMUNICATING this to the American public.
This incident in Thailand is but the tip of a huge iceberg. Lone Ranger, thanks for the comments from Thailand.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2006 11:50 Comments ||
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#20
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.
#21
'Sorry 2b - I will not begrudge you your approach, but I'm past the pale. To me, the core religion of Islam is an anathema - it is at its core a VERY intolerant, enslaving, aggressive, and ultra-fundamentalist creed - and it needs to be wiped from the planet as soon as possible. If some adherants of Islam want to break away and form a less extreme form of the religion - OK - but they will then be hunted down and butchered as apostates of Islam - because that is how Islam operates.
I will offer no quarter. They ALL need to perish. And - when it happens, I will shed a few tears for the (relative) innocents - but I will press on - for the greater good of mankind, and my descendants.
#22
I'm with Alaska Paul. It's way beyond time for people of this country to be told what is being preached in THIS country against us, and for those funding it to be confronted with an ultimatum.
Leaders aren't gonna do it, however. If only because they don't want to be blamed for any resulting violence or economic sabotage. You and I have got to do it, RBers, with friends, relatives, neighbors ... who in some cases aren't gonna want to hear it. Somehow we need to get organized, document this sh*t and make our voices heard.
Posted by: past the tipping point ||
05/21/2006 12:23 Comments ||
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#23
I'm not at the point of advocating genocide-- not yet. But day by day, I move a little bit more in that direction.
Frankly, I don't think Islam is going to give the non-Islamic world any choice but to either bow down before their hateful, paranoid control freak of a "deity," or annihilate them all.
One or the other. My bet is that eventually, those will be the only two choices.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/21/2006 12:26 Comments ||
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#24
I'm with DD. But.... leveling of Madrassahs, rounding up of suspect males and expelling fems and kids to Malaysia are OK. Check back next week and I'll be more hard core
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 12:41 Comments ||
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#27
Most of us here, through years of observation and study, have arrived at the common conclusion: it's either our way of life and culture or the Death Cult. I have no problem exterminating the death cult. All of them. Now, what is vitally imortant here is that the Buddhists of Thailand and the Christains in Mindanao start fighting for their own preservation. The US, or whomever, cannot save everyone. These peoples must fight or die (or leave, as most non-courageous peoples do). They must understand what they are facing, and make their decision. Look to India. They are tolerant of outrages only to a point. Then Muzzies are exterminated and stacked like cord wood. This is calming only for a short period, until the local imams get these idiots fired up again. They are of the Death Cult, and death is all they really understand. So be it.
#28
Thank you folks for the thought-provoking comments. Especially Lone Ranger - your comments are obviously long and well-considered and very informative. It has been a long road, but I am there, as well.
#29
I've travelled a similar road. From indifference to Moslems, to the firm conviction that they leave us no choice but to eliminate their religion IF our civilization is to survive and our children to live in freedom.
The Iranian madmen may very well be the ones causing massive war. They're itching for it.
#30
I echo #28's sentiments. This is not necessarily a pleasant but it is a sobering and necessary discussion.
I also like #20's post quoting Winston Churchill. I read the book years ago, and recommend it highly. Churchill is right on the mark in his assessment. I just have this horrible feeling that we are going to have to go through a sh*tstorm with this radical Islam thing. It will have to get bad enough for people in general to take action against it.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2006 14:18 Comments ||
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#31
I happen to agree with Winston Churchill's comments.
If you want to hunt down the leaders of their army, including the hate spreading holy men and Saudi funding princes, and treat them as such - sign me up. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sign on to sending granny and the curly haired kids into the bread ovens.
The way to a civilized future isn't to going around nuking everyone not like you.
#33
BESIDES - the fact that we allow them to operate treasonous mosques openly calling for Jihad, play games with the UN, play the Paleo game, etc, etc. is a failure of our society more so than theirs.
If you want to make the world a safer place, you'd be better off wiping out the liberals that provide all the top cover that makes it possible for the evil despots to do their deeds unhindered by civilized society.
#34
uh..we had a little simultaneous post. Don't want anyone to think I want to wipe out liberal hawk or anything - but hey - it's those failed "enlightened" policies that allow the magic to happen.
#35
and...lest anyone actually think I'm advocating genocide of liberals - I'm just making a point.
The point is that if you want to wipe out an ideology that allows Nazism, Communism, Islamism to threaten our own civilization - then the liberal ideology is the one that is responsible. But would be absurd to think that you could resolve that problem by killing anyone and everyone who adheres to the liberal faith. It's the same with the Muslims.
#36
I'll definitely add her to my prayer list, as well. I'll also request the TRUE God to visit appropriate 'remedies' upon those that did this to her. I believe a bite by a mildly-poisonous snake (not one of the dread one-step or two-step varieties but one that takes a day or so to kill, with no known antidote) somewhere painful, would do the trick. Yes, I'm vindictive. People who beat up other people, especially to this degree, deserve no sympathy, and any and all appropriate "rewards" they can be given.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
05/21/2006 15:23 Comments ||
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#37
It's all leadership and money, 2B. It's the money that enables the terror, and it's the leaders pushing the jihadis along, while watching some 5000 yards off through heavy lenses. People like Imams advocating suicide bombing should be targets. People like Adminijacket should not feel safe outside their country (or inside, either). When they feel pain or death, then and only then will they change their ways. You do not have to do a 100 kiloton science project on a population. You need to deal with the instigators of this madness.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/21/2006 15:28 Comments ||
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#38
We don't have many choices in dealing with Islamic aggression. Whenever I try to take inventory of our options in this struggle, the list I come up with is pretty short.
In all, I come up with fewer than a dozen distinct possibilities. All of them are bad. Most are VERY bad. A few are just plain horrific.
We could always just surrender, of course: Islam's stated mission is to convert the entire world to Islam, and many Muslims (apparently a growing number) fervently believe that is their manifest destiny. We could dispense with this entire struggle by becoming Muslims and being done with it.
We could try appeasement: buy them off by giving them what they want-- whether money, or license to slaughter all the Jews in Israel or elsewhere, whatever.
We could just ignore Islamic terrorism: shrug off atrocities like the Islamic attacks on 9/11 and those in Madrid, London, Bali, Israel and Beslan.
We could withdraw from the rest of the world and its troubles, keep our heads down and maintain a low profile. We've let our isolationist impulses reign before, maybe we can again.
We could go back to treating Islamic terrorism as a purely criminal matter. Hunt down the terrorists who attack us and prosecute them for their crimes-- but only after they've committed them. Judging by what I've been hearing a lot of liberals saying lately, this seems to be their preferred approach.
We could try to liberate and reform Islamic culture, on the theory that their violent impulses toward non-Muslims arise mainly from their abuse at the hand of despots. This is what we're doing now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe it will work; maybe it won't. Maybe it will only work half-assed, at far too high a price. We'll see. So far the results don't look very promising IMO.
We could try relying on intrusive domestic security measures, preventing future terrorist attacks by turning America into a police state-- complete with intrusive government monitoring of all aspects of our lives and suspension of habeus corpus. Anyone even suspected of terrorist activity or sympathies, simply disappears in the middle of the night.
We could respond to future terrorist attacks (or threat of attack) by brute conquest and subjugation: invade their countries, assassinate their political and religious leaders, outlaw Islam and bulldoze their mosques, and rule them with an iron fist.
We could resort to collective punishment, responding to terrorist attacks on American soil with extravagently disproportionate retaliation against their cities and their infrastructure. Repeated often enough, this will eventually lead to deterrence.
We could resort to expulsion and quarantine-- outlaw Islam within the U.S. and expel all Muslims, citizens or not. Forbid entry into the U.S., even for brief visits, to all Muslims regardless of country of origin, and all nationals of whatever religion from countries that are predominantly Muslim. Seal the Canadian and Mexican borders tight with orders to shoot to kill, and NOT ask questions later.
And finally, we could end this once and for all with a 30-minute war of utter annihilation: just nuke the entire Islamic world and let our descendents deal with a thousand years of collective guilt.
And that's it. You can combine some of the above in varying degrees, and there is some interpolation possible between some of the above; but I think this list pretty much outlines the range of possible responses to Islamic terrorism.
Not good. Not good, at all.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/21/2006 15:45 Comments ||
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#39
Dave - good post - but anhilating them won't do it. Why? Because this world is about balance - not right v/s wrong. You can't nuke human nature and things like the lust for power, rounding up sheep to gain power, and all the dirty dealings be they KKK, Islamist fanatics, mobsters, slave traders, drug dealers, etc won't disappear if you slaughtered every Muslim on the planet. Besides - then you are the evil that you wanted to destroy.
Our forefathers understood this - thus the balance of power. That's what makes our society work. Pit the strong and ambitious against the strong and ambitious and they will prevent one force from gaining absolute power to take advantage of the less strong. It balances the evil of power.
We've been taught that there is right and wrong - and if you view the world in that light you will always be disappointed - because there are no two people on the face of the planet who will agree on what's right and what's wrong. But there is good and evil - it is in each of us and the trick is to try to get evil and good into balance. I know it sounds trite - but there's a reason discussions of good v/s evil have been around for ever.
It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good.
#40
oh.. and I meant to say - that's why I agree with Alaska Paul's take on things. You have to rally the good to destroy what's evil - not just kill a bunch of families who are really just minding their own business, following the culture they were raised in.
#41
It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good.
You're confusing your internal dialogue about morals with defense against physical terror attacks, against horrifically torturous slaughter by slow decapitation and against honor rapes and willful subjugation of women and all the other happy dialogues-in-action that characterize a fair number of young Muslim men with few if any doubts about their own justification for it all.
I'll deal with my inner dialogue after I'm done shooting the first son of a bitch that tries to force me into a chador. And my trigger finger is itching about the others who have done those other things to powerless women and men.
Pfeh. My daughter was 1/4 mile from the Twin Towers on 9/11. We had friends in the wing of the pentagon that was hit that day. I know and care for soldiers who've served in Iraq. None of them has had the detached luxury of your navel gazing, 2b. And while none of them thinks they are morally perfect, they're pretty sure there is such a thing as good and evil. And they're pretty sure there are actual physical people out there who have tried and might try again to kill them - an attitude they take offense at.
#42
sheesh lotp! I didn't think you had it in ya! :-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 16:20 Comments ||
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#43
"Dave - good post - but anhilating them won't do it."
Excuse me? Where the hell did I say it would?????
I said those were our options. I also said they were all bad. Did you not comprehend that?????
"It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good."
Oh, bullshit. Save your moral hair-splitting for people who enjoy such witless twaddle. (Hint: that would NOT be me.)
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/21/2006 16:34 Comments ||
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#44
Frank, it's one thing to recoil from mass attacks on Muslims as a solution to the dangerous erosion of world order that Islamacists are creating. I cerntainly do.
It's another thing to suggest that we all just chant a centering mantra and find inner balance, as if that is either effective or the responsible thing to do in the face of the horrific acts that murderous barbarians are commiting in the name of Islam -- and against which I have yet to see many Muslims take arms themselves to prevent.
#45
sigh. I don't recall saying that I don't think that those who try to force you into slavery or who want to fly planes into building should not be destroyed.
I give up. If you want to rally the blood lust that gets innocent people killed, and I'm talking about the people who have done nothing to you - not those fighting in the army of Jihad - then go for it. After all, they deserve it, right. That makes it all ok.
#48
I'd suggest when countering an enemy whose religious doctrine allows the killing of infidel men, women, and children, that you may have to respond in a matter you wouldn't normally use, as in : in kind. That's worst case. "Innocents" of Islam should be noticed what's coming and given the choice to surrender the guilty or face the emptying of the swamp they hide in, by whatever measures necessary. I'd start with Balochistan as an example. Arclight on the villages and smuggling paths endangering our troops in Afghanistan. Next up - the Iranian border. Stop infiltration of IED's, spies, IRGC assholes.
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 17:08 Comments ||
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#49
It just occurred to be that there is a hidden balance... Just as some half-assed Muslims will fall, so shall some half-assed Westerners be saved.
#50
2b, you lost me right about the time you wrote anhilating them won't do it. Why? Because this world is about balance - not right v/s wrong. You can't nuke human nature and things like the lust for power, rounding up sheep to gain power, and all the dirty dealings be they KKK, Islamist fanatics, mobsters, slave traders, drug dealers, etc won't disappear if you slaughtered every Muslim on the planet.
Because, see, while that might be true, it's also the case that a major counterattack is ONE way to end the very dangerous war the jihadis and their sponsors are currently waging.
I'm not saying it's the only way -- and neither is Dave, if I read him correctly. But to assert that it would not go a long way to dealing with the current situation is .... naive. At best.
And disingenuous when it leads to It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good.
First of all, you know perfectly well that many here have been wrestling since 9/11 precisely to know whether it really is the Muslims vs. us. Some have reluctantly come to the conclusion that, for all practical matters, it is.
And second, I'm the wrong person to include the "Communists vs. us" bit with. Over 90% of my father's family died in the Russian revolution and under Stalin. Don't even BEGIN to tell me that what really counted wrt the communists is my personal inner moral balance. I know what my family suffered at the hands of the communist regime - in the flesh and in the spirit both.
There is perhaps a case to be made that some critical mass of Muslims are totally innocent of any complicity and support for what is being done in the name of Islam. There is certainly a case to be made for not lightly contemplating a massive defensive attack to end the war that has been declared and is being waged, not only on us, but on the very basis of our civilization.
But you haven't made those cases pursuasively ... and you undercut your case when you reduced the serious issues to one of seeking inner moral balance. That is an individual issue for us all to contemplate, to be sure. But I for one will not countenance the suggestion that that SUFFICES as a response to the evil being perpetrated on live human beings in the physical world.
#51
The world is too small in this day and age to solve problems by seeing people as "them v/s us".
Which is my point - there are people who work towards evil ends and there are people like you and me - who are a part of a culture that is often responsible for bad things. That the Muslim religion incites hate does not mean that all Muslims are bad people.
No - I'm not saying that you are saying that they are. But in a terrorist global war we need to rethink what makes someone an enemy and someone a productive member of society. Membership in a race or religion can not be the determining factor in today's world. Thus my point -- perhaps badly stated.
#54
I don't disagree with that last point, 2b. But here's the rub: this isn't a theoretical discussion. A significant minority of Muslims, funded by the Saudis and others and armed with very public statements by senior Muslim religious leaders, want to kill us and destroy our civilization.
They want this in a world in which weapons of mass destruction allow barbarians to do a whole lot more damage than the Vandals did to Rome or the Huns came close to doing in Europe.
And I don't really see much in the way of active opposition to them from other Muslim leaders.
Given all that, what do YOU propose is a basis for proceding, 2b? Because it's not me who has defined things as "us vs. them" - THEY have indicated their willingness to wage war to the death, over as many years as it takes them to win. So if you want to dismantle the "us vs. them" mentality, you're going to have to come up with some solution to the war they are waging and intend to keep waging that is based on exactly that premise.
For my part, I don't like any of the aternatives I see before us, each of which has effects that are horrid. The question is which ones we will end up choosing ... or if we wait to choose so long that we lose the chance to choose.
#59
2b, are you suggesting that we should ask ourselves what we're doing wrong? are you hinting that there is somehow something evil in our civilization? I note that this is the constant refrain from liberals and islamofascists.
Which many sane people are finding strange and disturbing, when the only choice offered to us is "convert, submit or die, infidel!" So when the infidels are saddened to observe that there may unfortunately not be much choice other than total war in self-defense, you come along and tell us we should instead question our inner balance of good and evil?
When someone wants to enslave me or kill me, I fight back in the name and tradition of the American Revolution -- I don't fall into a catatonic state of inner word salad.
#61
I've read the history of other civilizations under assault by barbarian hordes. Some succeeded in repelling and occasionally civilizing them.
Others fell because of their arrogance combined with decadence.
I have no desire to deal out death indiscriminately. But neither have I a desire to see my civilization destroyed or in bondage. I'd rather avoid the former. I *will* do what I can to avoid the latter. If I could, I would wave a majic wand and have neither come to pass.
However, the decision isn't really mine. I didn't start this war. The decision lies in the hands of those within the Muslim world who will choose either to put an end to the destructive and dangerous madness of the jidhadis and the Ahmadinajads of the Muslim world -- or not. Ask me to take great risks but do not ask me to endanger my daughter's remaining life, or that of the young of my country.
#62
"Same IP address for them, via an anonymizing server in Europe.
Same turd in the punch bowl as last week ned I presume as well, Stupid self hating "liberal" westerner or a "educated muslim". NO matter they are totally wrong.
The choices all suck. I put the survival of the west over the survival of islam. I am ready for the "1000 years of guilt." We are running out of time. Lots of the west has been eating stupid soup passed out by the MSM. 99.9% don't have any inkling of the facts. IMNSHO it's "Option #9."
Tell me when it's happning. I'll put on some sad music, cry and, survive along with my now forever changed civilization but I'll survive at least.
#64
Ask me to take great risks but do not ask me to endanger my daughter's remaining life, or that of the young of my country.
Did you ever think that your actions and words might put your daughter at even greater risk than would otherwise be necessary?
I honestly thought 9/11 would take some people out of the bubble in which they lived but you seem to have retreated into an even bigger bunker instead. If that's the kind of world you want, then I hope you never win, because I don't want it.
#65
Anonymizer,
You seem free with criticism, but stingy with solutions. Since you so much to criticize, you must have better solutions but are just to modest to share with us. Well, don't be afraid. Dazzle us with your magnificent brilliance. What is your solution to islamic imperialism? Don't be afraid to give a detailed proposal.
Posted by: ed ||
05/21/2006 18:30 Comments ||
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#66
Did you ever think that your actions and words might put your daughter at even greater risk than would otherwise be necessary?
No. It's a possibility I was cautious about after 9/11, just as I was extremely cautious about coming to conclusions about the role of the wider Islamic world as an opponent of western democracy. The reaction of Frank G. above to my comments is based on that long-held caution.
Nor I do now hold for certain the position you seem to think I hold. I do not want to see a major attack on Islam as a whole. But I am increasingly uncertain there is any other way out. And I am NOT willing to take the route that Europe is taking. There is ample precedent for what happens when civilizations try to buy themselves a little peace and decadence by bribing the barbarians. And even more precedent for what happens when some members of the civilization cut side deals with the barbarians for shortterm profit, as it would appear more than one European leader and company are doing and have been doing for years.
#67
not a chance - we see it as an awakening - a chance to take the offensive to Islamopukes who would harm us. You sound distressed.... perhaps you or loved ones are in the target crossshairs?
Allan will protect you. Just keep saying that
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 18:32 Comments ||
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#68
I honestly thought 9/11 would take some people out of the bubble in which they lived but you seem to have retreated into an even bigger bunker instead.
You'll need to be more specific about that bubble you think I lived in. I've done business and travelled in the middle East. And in Europe (both) as well and have done business in the far East. I read several languages besides English, among them a little Arabic. There's a good chance I'm better read in the literature and philosophy of western civilization than you are. I say that for context, not as a brag - I am older than many posters here and had the benefit of a classical education that is far from common these last 20 or 30 years now.
And I am somewhat read in both middle and far Eastern thought as well. Except for European culture I will not claim mastery, but I have seriously attempted to understand middle eastern and far eastern cultures on their own terms, including Islam.
Or did you mean a bubble about social issues and conditions? Tell us a little about your own experiences, then. Because I and my family have lived on several continents, fought in and survived (painfully) several wars and one genocide aimed at us in the course of the last 125 years or so. And I have volunteered my time, money and caring in places like the barrios of LA, and South Central in the time of the Crips and the Bloods.
I come to my convictions after great thought. I am not unread in - or unreflective on - the Christian tradition, Eastern, Roman, Protestant and the anabaptist communities as well. I hold a Master of Divinity degree from a well-known seminary but have chosen a secular career in a field that is irrelevant for this thread.
What bubble then are you so sure I live in, anonymous poster? If I have rejected pacifism I have done so after thought and prayer. Are your own convictions as well grounded? If so, follow them faithfully - but beware of spiritual pride as you judge others.
I figure that for at least the next 2-1/2 years we're committed to the "liberation and reform" option in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that's as it should be; it's something we simply must try, and try as best we can, if for no other reason than to be able to say honestly, "we really did try to show the Islamic world a better way, and we gave it everything we had." And I don't see this administration abandoning that commitment, not even in the face of another mass-casualty terrorist attack.
But I don't see us extending that effort anywhere else but where we're already making it. Not even under GWB, and certainly not under any possible successor-- Republican or Democrat. After watching the wringer Bush has been put through the last four years, can you imagine ANY future American president making the political decision to undertake yet another "long, hard slog" like Iraq, in yet another Muslim country? I can't.
So as best I can figure, once Bush leaves office, the Bush Doctrine is effectively dead. The "nation building" part of it most certainly will be, and the "pre-emption" part of it may be as well, particularly if he is replaced by a Democrat.
And if Bush's successor has to deal with another 9/11-style mass-casualty terrorist attack-- or even worse, such as a terrorist nuke going off in Lower Manhattan-- what option(s) will he choose?
I hope we don't have to find out. I really don't.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/21/2006 18:50 Comments ||
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#70
I think pre-emption will remain as long as the axis remains. Syria is ripe, then Lebanon can self-police the camps and hezbollah. Iran has unwittingly bitten off more than they can chew
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 19:02 Comments ||
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#71
I can't see any Democrat risking pre-emption, Frank; I just don't see how he/she could figure on surviving politically, given how their "base" has been acting.
And I'm not too confident any of the available Republicans would risk it, either.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/21/2006 19:07 Comments ||
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#72
Courage seems in short supply these days, is what I'm saying (outside our military, that is).
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/21/2006 19:08 Comments ||
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#73
No other terror-supporting nation will be invaded by the West. The left has made it politically impossible.
I don't think that's by accident, or without the encouragement of our enemies.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/21/2006 19:08 Comments ||
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#74
The USA was founded with freedom of religion in mind. However, If a single religion undertakes the methodical elimination of people who do not practice that religion, then, that dogma is anti-constitutional. As such, we should debate whether we should allow that religion to exists within our borders. Most of us here today, vote no. Furthermore, just kicking Islam out of the USA does not extend the hand of protection the USA has come to offer repeatedly to other peoples. Today there are many countries on the brink of civil war or collapse into dhimmitude through immigration and birthrate. There are other countries, both allies and former enemies who are faced with the same set of circumstances, Islamic radical violence. The world body, the UN, has shown itself as incapable of taking meaningful action on such a scale. We cannot wait for strength to grow out of corruption, indifference and selfishness. We must either act for all the world , or isolate ourselves and watch as the world struggles against suffocation. I say the USA leads the world, and we have for decades, so we must take responsibility for the difficult decision on the fate of Islam. I believe there are Muslims who do not buy into the violence, and would take an exit if they knew they would not be killed. I would urge that exit be provided. I would also urge that Islam be denounced and hounded to extinction. To do so, all mosques must be destroyed, and all korans burned, and believe me, I don't write that in jest. This is a sobering conclusion. Finally, the practice of Islam removed from earth without a trace, forever after.
#75
We will have to Shermanize the ME. Note that Sherman dealt out and took a lot less casualties than Grant. But by the time he was done there was no question in anyone's mind that a way of l;ife had been rooted out, once and for all. We are going to have to do the same for Arab Islamic fundamentalism. As for the rest of the Ummah, they can draw the proper consclusion or suffer the treatment themselves, just as the balance of the Confederacy did after Sherman got done with South Carolina and Georgia.
All that frightens me is what it is going to require for this nation to develop the resolve to implement the solution.
#76
I'm not suggesting a Donk can be elected President, DD
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 19:12 Comments ||
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#77
I kinda like what Dirty Harry once said about dogshit. It either get shoveled up, stepped in, or dries up, crumbles and blows away.
Stepping in dogshit is what we're doing right now. It's a nasty, smelly, a lot of work to clean it up, spreads the dogshit all around, and leaves most of the turd there for someone else to come along and step in it.
Shoveling it up is what happens after a few more major attrocities and we fight a long war of attrition/exhaustion/annihilation (pick one or more of the above). This will be expensive. We'll get our "thousand years of guilt" and our penance will be lifetimes of having whiny liberals rub it in our faces.
Drying and blowing away in the wind is what happens to Islam if we seize the oilfields and cut off the revenue. Alternatively, through some weird physics or immense capital investment, energy independence will have the same effect.
Dar al Islam has two centers of gravity: energy and religion. Take away energy and religion dries up. Islam is the most materialistic of religions. The muezzin call out, "Come to the success," after all. Muhammed chastized his opponents as "losers." Take away the success and the whole civilization collapses. Going to a Muslim country will become as depressing as going to an Indian reservation, but its cheaper and less damning than the course we seem stuck on.
As always, I must acknowledge PD for his insights on that 40 km strip.
#78
One of the amazing things to me is how quickly Bush and his advisors developed their doctrinal strategy and began executing it. I will forever be grateful to them for not wasting a dozen cruise missiles on tents in the middle of nowhere and calling it done. We'd be in deep shit if Gore or Kerry had been elected. Really. Deep. Shit.
Instead, Bush has taken the most humane of Dave D's options and is giving it a real chance - in the face of the horrific political grilling and personal demonization that Dave refers to. He's not a Teflon President, he's the Stainless Steel President.
Now, he's under attack from all sides, including his own base, because the long hard slog he told us about is inconveniently long and hard and he's dropped the ball on the sleeper domestic issue of the century - immigration.
I don't have a prediction, just faith that we will eventually prevail over the enemies of Freedom, both those within and without. And, IMHO, good intentions do not excuse misinformed or malignant opposition.
#79
But I am increasingly uncertain there is any other way out.
In a way that is a very profound statement, and it only reaffirms what I think is the main difference between you and me. I won't bore you with the details, except to say that I too, have seen much of this world, yet we seem to hold such diametrically opposed perspectives on this issue. Which one of us is correct?
Nor I do now hold for certain the position you seem to think I hold. I do not want to see a major attack on Islam as a whole.
You are free to attack Islam all you want, and you might even be right in doing so. It's the attack on all Muslims with which I have a problem. That's because I fear I may not be far behind them. I am not doing all I can to speak out against the anti-American rhetoric that I hear around me on a daily basis. Are you going to condemn me as well? As Frank G. pointed out, should I be worried that I might be in your crosshairs?
All that wisdom and knowledge and worldly experience, yet you see 9/11 as the start of something, rather than a culmination, or at least a continuance. You fail to notice when westernised Afghan children speak well of their Jewish neighbours, yet despise everything American. That is the bubble I was refering to.
If I have rejected pacifism I have done so after thought and prayer.
I am not a pacifist, far from it. But I draw the line at genocide. From birth I have been given the freedom to choose between good and evil. I am not about to take that freedom away from others.
#80
9/11 was the start of this phase of the war of Islamacists on the West. The first phase of open war dates from the 1970s. The conflict goes much farther back ... in many ways it has existed since the 600s. It is a war both of belief AND of the Ummah against the west. As it stands, I am hard-pressed to see how they can co-exist peacefully. Western civilization does not seek, by and large, to dominate through force at this point ... but it does tend to fill all the space available. Civilizations based on individual initiative tend to do that. Islam seeks to control and impose dominance, both of thought and of action.
I would gladly see an opening that would allow peaceful coexistence of the west and Islam. So far I'm not getting a warm feeling about that happening, you know?
Westernized Afghan children are free to criticize America. You're free to do the same and I will fight for your right to do that. I have little respect for much of American pop and academic cultures (both) myself, and for some of our national actions over the course of my lifetime.
I do take it, though, that neither you nor they are planning to go the next few steps and attempt to destroy that culture and country, or impose Islam or any other totalitarian way of life on me? Fine then, we don't have a problem with one another that rises to the level of conflict. But those who do have made themselves my enemy and I will not flinch from looking that fact square on. It is not a fact I relish -- but a fact it is.
Thats a start. And if that doest work, then level the Mosques, and start exiling the Muslims to Muslim nations.
Its a cultural war - they started it and they only have one way they can finish it: with the utter destructionand subjugation of western civilization. And thats the only terms they will accept - and the only terms that they will abide by in return.
They've called the tune. They set the terms. Our only choice is do we want to be on the giving or the receiving end of the destruction.
#82
Insofar as genocide is concerned, I do not recommend that. But erasure of the culture and those who support it is paramount. And that means go after the Muslims like we went after Nazis - utterly ruthlessly and with no remorse.
Either an acceptable form of Islam wil result from a reformation, or else the Koran will end up placed in the same collection as Mein Kampf: evil basis for an evil but dead ideology.
#83
Anonymizer,
Still waiting for you to enlighten the rabble with your wise, knowledgable and worldly solution to genocidal, islamic imperialism.
Posted by: ed ||
05/21/2006 20:12 Comments ||
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#84
But erasure of the culture and those who support it is paramount. And that means go after the Muslims like we went after Nazis - utterly ruthlessly and with no remorse.
Should have put that in bold, Oldspook, lest anyone is still uncertain what you stand for. And you claim to be a Christian (Catholic?).
Still waiting for you to enlighten the rabble with your wise, knowledgable and worldly solution to genocidal, islamic imperialism
Kill those that are killing you, leave everyone else alone. Or is that too pacifist for you?
What a difference half of a century makes. Americans chose not to participate in Britain's strategic bombing campaign of WW2, choosing instead to go for precise targeting at far greater risk during day missions (as opposed to the British fire bombing missions at night). And now look at you.
#86
nobody humanly advocates genocide. Was Dresden or Tokyo genocide? They were disgustingly necessary attacks. If the Lions of Islam continue to hide among innocents, women and children, the options open to us are narrower, but not closed. I say one big attack on American soil and te Donks are done, Islam takes a whacking and yes, a lot of the innocent pond among which the "ALLOWED scum" thrive dies as well. It's called a "new start". If Islamists weren't so fucking stupid and loved their wives abnd kids more than death, they wouldn't make this the only choice. F*&K them and their incivility. Guilt? I got none if we deal with this cancer
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/21/2006 21:03 Comments ||
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#87
O anonymous one. You do not understand modern warfare. It is no longer about some king or prince losing his nerve on the battlefield and surrendering his kingdom. It is about whole nations and civilization maintaining or losing their will.
Kill those that are killing you. Harumph. That makes it so individual. What happens when there is a large scale consensus on the opposing side that they should kill you -- when it's the demos you are fighting and not just the leaders? Does Dresden, Tokyo, and Hiroshima make sense in that context?
Modern, networked societies are self-assembling teams oriented on certain goals. When those goals include massive proliferation of nuclear weapons technology, widespread support of dawa and jihad, and ethnic cleansing (the Armenians, the Shephardic Jews, the Animists, the Christians,... need I go on?) then our society is at war with their society. It's not about individuals anymore. The Germans would have gone over to guerilla warfare if we had not demonstrated that we we prepared to annihilate them. Likewise with the Japanese. Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima were essential in that context. If you cannot understand that and how it relates to the current conflict, there is no basis for debate here. We are just arguing past each other.
#88
JT,
Tell us how to kill those who want to kill us? Who are they? How do you recognize and separate them? Does your death list include those who give money to kill us? How about those who chant Death to Jews/Europe and sign up for suicide squads? How about those that plot death from European cities? A little stategic bombimg in order?
As for not "Americans chose not to participate in Britain's strategic bombing campaign of WW2", you are kidding right? Tell that to 100,000+ Tokyan that burned to death in one night. Makes Dresden look like the work of amateur firebugs. What you forget, it that American fought the enemy as cruelly as they were to us. You claim to be worldly, but you are extremly ignorant of history, especially what took place outside your little environs. Read up a little on the extreme cruelty of the Pacific War. If the Germans acted as cruelly to GI Joe or NYC Jane as they did to the Russians, I guarantee you the Americans would not have been satisfied just to rape every German they got their hands on or ship everything to Russia that was not embedded in concrete.
Face it JT, muslim imperialism is much crueller than either German Nazi or Japanese imperialism. They have killed many more people, the more passive, the more cruel and inventive they become. Just in the Indian subcontinent, muslim conquerers have killed 60-80 million buddhist and hindus. At the time, the total world population was about 320 million. At the time of the invasions, world population to a significant drop due to the absolute slaughter by muslims. Notice the pacifist buddhists are no more in their place of birth.
I say fight fire with fire. Apply islamic law, both in written and as practiced, to muslims. Of course, muslims will be the infidels in this application. Use muslim laws proscribed for Jews as the basis of our treatment for them. If islam is the religion of peace and justice, what could be more fair. Isn't this wbhat all muslims ever claim to want? When all is done, Americans can go back to making money and watching Britney, but islam won't.
Posted by: ed ||
05/21/2006 21:40 Comments ||
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#89
Our anonymous one is right that the US chose riskier targeted bombings for a good part of WWII.
S/he rather ignores that we are doing exactly the same thing in Iraq: choosing to take the riskier, slower road and accepting casualties rather than, for instance, bombing Fallujah and Ar Ramadi into dust. We have a tendency to go that route ... up to a point.
#90
Why are you all stillplaying with this turd who keeps letting the name generator give them a new name? It's pointless. You will never be in agreement with them no matter what you say or do. It's typical wanker activity. They are a but, but, but artist.
#91
Anom forgot that the one thing the Germans hated about Americans was it overwhelming use of artillery and I gaurantee it was not accurate about what it was hitting.
#92
S/he rather ignores that we are doing exactly the same thing in Iraq: choosing to take the riskier, slower road and accepting casualties...
What I haven't ignored however, are the calls for genocide in this thread. It doesn't get any more explicit than this.
People seem to be confusing the call for the extermination of a group of people, and the death of civilians in combat. The goal of WW2 was not the extermination of an entire group of people, a culture or religion. Contrast with the comments in this thread.
I'm glad to hear that this will make the classics. Very revealing stuff.
#93
It was the extermination of nazism and all the innocents that died with it, muslims are not a race it is a religion, just like some people thought nazism was the best thing for everbody involved the muslims think the same way.Thier way is better than ours and for them to win, we must die.
#94
Wrong. Nazism was extermnated. Bushido was exterminated. I suggest muslims convert quickly.
Posted by: ed ||
05/21/2006 23:07 Comments ||
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#95
Sorry we are calling for the elimination of a sect. Genocide is seen against a racial group. islam is not a racial group it's as varied as human kind is. It is black brown red yellow and white. So the "genocide" card doesn't play. It can't trump anything in this discussion.
#96
If you choose to claim that "self-defense" is "genocide", that's your problem. Should Islamofascists continue to attempt to enslave or kill us, we won't let them, and we'll defend ourselves by killing them in very large numbers --including many of their friends, supporters, and allies-- IF they force us to. Did you notice the "IF" ?
The Western world is built on a compact of freedom and self-preservation. Self-defense includes the right to kill whoever threatens your life and liberty; the pain or death inflicted to by-standers is entirely the moral responsibility of the one who initiated the use of force. One can take precautions to avoid hurting innocents, but one is not morally obligated to do so at the expense of one's own life or limb.
IF Islamofascists force our hand, we MAY have to resort to total war against the Ummah that supports them. Then they'd go the way of the blood-thirsty Carthaginians and Aztecs -- and I don't see many of those around to make the West feel guilty for its freedom, development and prosperity.
I will admit - I was shocked by my own reversal of outlook - and realized that I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action - Lone Ranger
Destroy the madrasses, with the Muslim children inside. Past time to go Viking on these barbaric throw-backs...Ten years ago I never would have thought it possible that I would advocate the extermination of an entire group of people. - Manolo
#98
What I haven't ignored however, are the calls for genocide in this thread. It doesn't get any more explicit than this.
I've been hanging out here a lot longer than you have O anonymous one. Folks here are just being honest. Fire bombing and nuking of cities while slowly starving the population was genocidal. Wiping out cultures (as we effectively did in Germany and Japan, see Ed's post)was genocidal. Dar al Islam is a zero sum culture arrayed against our non-zero sum culture. There is a widepsread consensus within DaI that we are not creating wealth, but rather stealing it from them. This is the natural result of a zero sum outlook. As evidenced from rhetoric, opinion polls, and donations to "charities," a large majority of Muslims would like to see the West humbled or destroyed, dhimmitized, and raided for booty. Probably the only way to change the Islamic civilizational outlook is to either kill a lot of them or destroy their civilization and culture (as summarized by my "seize the oil fields" strategy). Even if we chose the second, more humane course of action, many will die from poverty and lack of medical care as Saudi Arabia and Iran implode and their client states starve.
Any way you cut it, genocide, as defined by international law is the correct description. I'm really sorry that you are offended by that. I don't like it either. I think that the reason that you have no answer beyond "kill those that want to kill you," is because you honestly know there is no non-genocidal solution. There was no non-genocidal solution to the 30 years war or WWII either. Tragedy happens.
#99
Oh so the children thing bothers you, well you go tell that to them Beslan children who died because of muslims and the children they put into sex slave camps. Last post for me, but you better learn something it is a war of attrition and the muslims think they got the numbers on their side.
#101
LOL, anon one. An innocent is beaten to the point of death by evil men bent on ethnic cleansing (which was genocide last time I checked the language in the treaties) and people get pissed and want to fight back on the same basis.
You remind me of Dukakis when he was asked what he would do if his wife was raped and replied with some formalistic, legalistic answer while showing no emotion. Do we have the right to genocide the genociders? This isn't a hypothetical. The genocide is going on right now in Sudan, Nigeria, Thailand, etc, ad infinitum. How do we protect these innocent ones? The freakin world court? The ICC? I'd laugh if I wasn't sick to my stomach.
#103
So if you want to dismantle the "us vs. them" mentality, you're going to have to come up with some solution to the war they are waging and intend to keep waging that is based on exactly that premise.
First we need to define "they". We can all agree that "they" are the clerics inciting hate. We can agree that those actively funding and providing charity fronts to funnel money. Heads of state that provide state resouces for the cause. It's a fricking army for heaven sake. They act like one, but we pretend that they are some sort of general blob of Muslim people that can't be touched unless they shoot first.
My solution? An organized effort to eliminate the leadership and funding arms of the army. Clerics who incite violence against the west - fair game. Determine whose in the army of Jihad and whose just a Muslim. Death Squads - laser targeted missles - bombing training camps. None of this touchy feely stuff where you get to set off an IED that kills our soldiers and then start shooting from a house with the expectation that the soldiers won't simply turn and obliterate the site that the shooting came from.
And what about the traitors here at home, enabling the whole process? They are the biggest problem we face. The members of our media? The CIA leaking information? Shall we the entire media or democratic party since they also incite?
In the old days, we didn't have the technology to do precision killings. Today we have the technology but not the will to do it the easy way. It's no longer necessary to wipe out entire cities to rid us from the leader of Iran.
A leading Tamil Tiger military commander has been shot dead in the Vavunathivu province of eastern Sri Lanka. A breakaway faction of the rebel group, led by a former Tamil Tiger colonel, said it carried out Sundays killing of the commander who was known only as Ramanan.
"Yeah, we dun it! And proud of it too!"
Tamilnet, a pro-rebel Web site, confirmed Ramanan had been killed, but said he was "assassinated" by Sri Lankan army snipers.
"Twas the army dun killed poor Ramanan!"
Ramanan, a colonel in the rebel group, is one of the highest ranking Tamil Tiger leaders to be killed since a truce with government forces began in 2002.
The same day, suspected Tamil rebels attacked the offices of two international aid agencies and a foreign peace group, injuring a Serbian aid worker, the Sri Lankan army said. In what is believed to be the first deliberate attack on foreign aid workers during continuing violence, grenades were thrown into three offices in the town of Mutur. Two government soldiers were also killed in rebel attacks in the north and east of the country, the military said.
Daya Master, a rebel spokesman, said he was unaware of the attacks on foreign organisations, but added that "the LTTE [Liberation Tamil Tigers of Elam] would never attack NGOs and foreigners".
"What, and kill our gravy train?"
A spokesman for the breakaway group led by V. Muralitharan, better known as Colonel Karuna, said fighters had ambushed Ramanan as he drove by on his motorcycle, the AFP news agency reported. They detonated a mine, which missed him, and then they opened fire on the rebel commander, killing him, the spokesman said.
"Kawasaki, don't fail me....KAPOW! ....now."
The rebel movement split in 2004 when Karuna broke away with 6,000 fighters.
The Tigers accuse the government of supporting the group in its attacks on their fighters and allowing it to operate in its territory. The rebels have fought the government since 1983, demanding a separate Tamil homeland.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/21/2006 15:25 ||
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#1
ahh, red on red. You gottsa love it.
To quote the old joke: Go Tigers!
Posted by: N guard ||
05/21/2006 18:06 Comments ||
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TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iranian police said on Saturday they had found papers linking Britain and the United States to vaguely identified "bandits" in a border province which is a drug smuggling center and a base for Sunni Muslim guerrillas.
A British diplomat in Tehran said Britain had nothing to do with mounting lawlessness in the southeastern province of Sistan-Baluchistan. The United States has no embassy in Iran.
Iran has previously blamed Britain and the United States for bombings and killings in its increasingly volatile frontier regions where unrest is simmering among Kurdish, Arab and Baluch minorities. Washington and London deny any involvement.
Iranian police spokesman Mehdi Ahmadi said security forces had destroyed a bandit stronghold in the Pirsouran mountains of Sistan-Baluchistan, which borders Afghanistan and Pakistan. The main opium smuggling route to Europe crosses the province.
"These people were involved in evil deeds," Ahmadi said, but would not say whether he was referring to drug smuggling or a low-level Sunni Muslim insurgency against the predominantly Shi'ite Muslim Iranian authorities.
"We found important documents regarding the involvement of foreigners and countries like America and Britain in incidents in eastern Iran," he said, but declined to give details.
Iran has accused a shadowy Sunni Muslim group called Jundollah (God's soldiers) of kidnapping and murdering Iranian soldiers and civilians in Sistan-Baluchistan.
It says the group's commander is Abdolmalek Rigi and that he leads a cell of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.
Sistan-Baluchistan resembles a war zone, dotted with forts, trenches and machinegun posts. More than 3,300 Iranian security personnel have died fighting drug traffickers there since the 1979 Islamic revolution.
Abdolmohammad Raoufinejad, governor of neighboring Kerman province, said bandits using the stronghold that was destroyed had killed 11 people beside a road in his province last Saturday.
"Behind the curtain, the Zionists and the Americans were plotting that incident," he told the official IRNA news agency.
Police spokesman Ahmadi said he could not produce evidence of any link between the roadside killings and the bandits in the mountain hideout. He could not comment on the fate of the men in the fort.
#1
Baluchistan is one palce that woudl spliut off if the central governmetn collapses.
The ara Guflf area around Hormuz is another.
The Kurdish north woudl spilt yet more of NW Iran away, and the Caspian N would be drawn to Azerbaijan.
Some of the Sunni NE would be drawn into tribal Afghanistan.
Iran is no more a monolith than is Iraq. And without the Shia mullahs and thier goons to held things at bay, Iran would be consiberably smaller in a very short time.
I'm sure the Tusk woudl "step and and help" to take over old territory jsut to keep the Kurds and some Armenian offshots quiet.
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Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Taliban militants ambushed two Afghan army convoys in the countrys south, sparking gunfights that killed 25 militants, five Afghan soldiers and a civilian, the Afghan military said on Saturday. About 50 Afghan soldiers were reported trapped in a Taliban-held territory after militants ambushed a military convey of around 20 vehicles. Fighting also erupted between the insurgents and US forces in the south and an American soldier was killed and six others wounded, the US military said. 
Baido 21 May. 06 ( Sh.M.Network) Somali cabinet has approved today with a majority vote, a proposal of deploying forces from Uganda and Sudan in Somalia.
An independent western security expert for terrorists activities said the recent confrontations in Somali capital Mogadishu were organized by Al-Qaeda operatives to have settlement the in lawless and war-torn country (Somalia) on Saturday. In an interview with the London based Arabic news paper Alqudus Alarabiya, the official who asked not to be identified, said Al-Qaeda network conducts bigger operations in the horn of African nation and attempts to create new insurgents in Somalia. 
At least four people got injured when a fire at a munitions dump sparked a wave of explosions outside the southern Sudanese capital of Juba on Friday, witnesses and U.N. staff said. The fire caused intermittent explosions for about 90 minutes from 4 p.m. (1300 GMT) and sent a plume of smoke into the air on the edge of Juba, where the government of southern Sudan is based. However, the cause of the fire was not immediately established. Speculation on whether this explosion was an attack was cleared by a spokesman for the former rebel Southern People's Liberation Movement (SPLM) who went on local radio to reassure residents it was not an attack.
Dozens were killed in a major attack by government-backed militias on Shearia town in Sudan's Darfur region, the latest in a wave of raids since a peace deal was signed earlier this month, rebels said on Saturday. A spokesman for the main rebel faction group who signed the deal in the Nigerian capital Abuja on May 5 told Reuters from the field in Darfur that despite the agreement, heavy attacks have continued on the ground. "The attack on Shearia was yesterday the Janjaweed have attacked many many places in South Darfur despite the peace deal," al-Tayyib Khamis said. Shearia is in South Darfur. "There are about 20-25 dead and many injured but it's unclear as yet how many," he said. 
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Sunday he believes journalists can be prosecuted for publishing classified information, citing an obligation to national security. 
Unidentified men fired at least eight rockets at Frontier Corps (FC) check posts in Dera Bugti on Saturday. "FC check posts came under rocket attack in Loti, Pir Koh and Chashma on Saturday," sources told Daily Times. They said that the FC personnel retaliated to the attack. However, no loss of life or property was reported. "The rockets came from the mountainous areas. The attackers retreated when the FC personnel fired back," the sources said. The Dera Bugti administration has started investigating the matter.
Two paramilitary soldiers and a militant were killed in a grenade attack at a security checkpost in North Waziristan's Mirali town on Saturday, officials said. Witnesses said that a man hurled a hand grenade at a paramilitary checkpost in the Hurmuz area, killing two jawans on the spot and wounding another. The attacker, later identified as a local tribesman, was killed when troops retaliated.
Two British soldiers were wounded in an attack in Basra, southern Iraq, that targeted their patrol vehicle, said the British Defense Ministry Saturday. A ministry spokesman said in a press statement that the soldiers had been on a routine mission when they were ambushed and attacked with hand grenades and explosives, but said that the wounds they sustained were not serious and that the had been taken on the military base for treatment. The vehicle had burned completely as a result of the attack, he said.
An Iraqi citizen was killed and another injured on Saturday in a Bomb explosion southwest of Kirkuk in northern Iraq, said a security source. The source told KUNA that the bomb exploded on the highway between Kirkuk-Riyadh.
Three cars belonging to the al-Jazeera news network were torched in Ramallah on Saturday night. Eyewitnesses said masked gunmen were seen fleeing the area.
The Dalal Al-Maghribi Brigades, a military wing of the Fatah Movement on Saturday said its fighters fired two locally-made 'Ammar 2' rockets in the direction of the Israeli settlement of Nahel Ouz, east of Gaza City. A statement by the brigades said the shelling came to retaliate to Israeli crimes, the last of which was the assassination of the Al-Quds Brigades' leader Mohammad Dahdouh earlier on Saturday.
