Article

2003-11-20 Europe

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Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 6:08:03 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Dear Murat: How should we deal with this problem? Should we, perhaps, move Western financial institutions outside the city to a more secure locations? Or was that only for the Jews?

Posted by Sorge 2003-11-20 6:15:37 AM|| [http://www.forgottenfronts.com/] 2003-11-20 6:15:37 AM|| Front Page Top

15 deaths and 320 injured reported

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 6:24:07 AM|| 2003-11-20 6:24:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Sorge:

Maybe you are tired from your night out in Miami. Please do not go after Murat at this point. Show some class.

Posted by Dragon Fly 2003-11-20 6:28:43 AM|| 2003-11-20 6:28:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Dragon Fly: Murat doesn't show any "class" when American soldiers die in Iraq, or when the targets of violence in Turkey are Jews. He deserves no cease fire.

Posted by Sorge 2003-11-20 6:37:21 AM|| [http://www.forgottenfronts.com/] 2003-11-20 6:37:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 IBDA-C and Al Queada claim responsibility but somehow this makes no sense, not because they are not terrorist or something, but IBDA-C is almost non-existing. It's a former terrorist group whose members are all in jail and the chance that the MIT would not detect this group is close to nil.

Al Queada used Arabic nationals in the attacks in the US, in Turkey the DNA investigation revealed them being Turkish nationals of Kurdish descent from Bingol. There are 5000 PKK fighters in Northern Iraq with a plethora of chances to acquire every weapon and explosive there is with the fallout of the government control there and the US is dragging her feet to fight those terrorists or allow Turkish operations against them. Something stinks, Al Queada link could be possible but the IBDA-C link is nonsense, those claims are possibly a distraction and an attempt to mislead.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 6:54:05 AM|| 2003-11-20 6:54:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 By the way, they come in a very convenient time at Bushâs trip to London to convince the world on âcombating terrorâ. To say it very gently I have great doubts!

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 6:58:31 AM|| 2003-11-20 6:58:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Why, Murat, would Kurds be targetting the London-based HSBC bank, and the British Consulate?

Will the British be joining the Jews in Turkey's proposed terror ghettos?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 7:01:40 AM|| 2003-11-20 7:01:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Hey Dragon fly;

Now Murat is accussing Bush of being part of the attack, even though Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility. (By extension, Bush controls part of Al-Qaeda!) Am I allowed to go after him now?

Posted by Sorge 2003-11-20 7:05:46 AM|| [http://www.forgottenfronts.com/] 2003-11-20 7:05:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Sorge:

I stand corrected. Unleash the hounds!

Posted by Dragon Fly 2003-11-20 7:06:00 AM|| 2003-11-20 7:06:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Are you insinuating that Britain, the US and/or, presumably, Israel, were behind these bombings? And the synagogue bombings? Not Islamists?

And I thought you couldn't stoop any lower, Murat.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 7:07:59 AM|| 2003-11-20 7:07:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Yeah, it doesn't give you guys food for thought why British related targets have been chosen while George is in London, just coincidence?

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 7:10:47 AM|| 2003-11-20 7:10:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Most probably not conincidence. And most probably not coincidence that al Qaeda chose Turkey as the place to have an easy shot at us. Are all Turks as mind-bogglingly naive as you, Murat? Do most Turks so desperately want to believe that fellow Muslims wouldn't target them in this way that they'll convince themselves that in the face of all contradictory evidence these attacks were orchestrated by the west? If so, and if consequently Turkey does nothing to prevent further attacks like this, one way or another you can expect a degenerate and bloody future for your country, and it will be utterly deserved.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 7:19:03 AM|| 2003-11-20 7:19:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Do most Turks so desperately want to believe that fellow Muslims wouldn't target them

Absolutely not, I don't believe in religion terror or in the brotherhood of fellow Muslim song you come up with. Just why do the US drag feet on the PKK, they know about 5000 armed terrorists in North Iraq and they donât only leave them they are actively protecting them. Fighting terror, my ass!!!!!

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 7:25:09 AM|| 2003-11-20 7:25:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 We shouldn't worry about fighting terrorism, not even fighting Islamism, but Islam itself. Murat, for example, is not an Islamist, but he's still our enemy. (I expect LiberalHawk's angry reply within the hour.)

Posted by Sorge 2003-11-20 7:36:04 AM|| [http://www.forgottenfronts.com/] 2003-11-20 7:36:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Hey Bulldog, (no pun intended, great song though) - I guess Murat thinks the Anglo-'Merikan Jew alliance conjured up the grand plan of bombing their own British capitalist ventures in Turkey. Holy shit, Murat almost put me at a loss for words on this. It had to be the Jooos, I mean c'mon, it was the second biggest bank in the land. We know the infidel Americans, their British accomplices & Jew brethren planned the whole thing. Especially when George was in London. Murat, quick, check how many Brits & Joos didn't show up for work this morning!

Murat, if your right (about the PKK, not the idiotic conspiracy theory) I would support Tukey's fight on them. If the PKK is indeed responsible and not Al Q as is claimed, I would say Turkey should have full U.S. support to do what it has to do.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-20 8:01:00 AM|| 2003-11-20 8:01:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" pretty well sums up my attitude towards Islam and the ME. Undereducated, miseducated, and in perpetual reality-denial: there's your typical in situ Muslim. Murat to a tee.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 8:04:59 AM|| 2003-11-20 8:04:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Murat,
1. Why is it that you think that AQ claims responsibility (or have I missed their recent denial statements for 911/Synagogue/Consulate), when it is so obvious that the Jew and Americans are behind this?
2. How old are you? 16?
3. When are you going to grow up?

Futures: How long before Murat and other logically-challenged individuals claim AQ itself is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ImperialistAmericanZionistConspiracy.

Posted by B 2003-11-20 8:34:19 AM|| 2003-11-20 8:34:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 UPDATE: Istanbul Mayor Ali Mufit Gurtuna said on Thursday that they had not contacted with British Consulate General Roger Short yet. Gurtuna told A.A correspondent that Short was missing and could be under the rubble after the blast that occurred in front of British Consulate General in Beyoglu district. ''I was there. Efforts continue. There was restoration in main building of the British Consulate. There were also teams in the secondary buildings of the Consulate. The bomb exploded in front of the secondary building. Teams are exerting efforts. A statement will be made after everything is illuminated. There is a possibility that Short might be under the rubble. Efforts continue. We have not contacted with him yet,'' Gurtuna said.

Posted by Steve 2003-11-20 8:56:19 AM|| 2003-11-20 8:56:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 It's really the Crusaders. Yeah, Crusaders trying to throw the infidel moslems out of the Christian Byzantine Empire. The targetting of Jews and British is just a cover... Damn that Bush is an idiot but somehow he sure manages to be the cause and control of everything that happens in the world.

/sarcasm

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2003-11-20 9:14:41 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:14:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Murat, you said the Turkish police had worked out DNA testing of the perpetrators already? What did they use as a basis for comparison?

Posted by Phil Fraering 2003-11-20 9:16:27 AM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2003-11-20 9:16:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Murat's "interesting" theories:

Al Queada used Arabic nationals in the attacks in the US, in Turkey the DNA investigation revealed them being Turkish nationals of Kurdish descent from Bingol.

Wonder what those Kurds think about being "Turkish nationals"? Centuries of Turkish repression of the Kurds have nothing to do with the attacks of course. Islamic "charity" money has nothing to do with it. It's all America's fault.

When Ocalan was captured in 1999, the European left fell all over themselves trying to defend the poor, oppressed man. There were marches all over the continent calling Turkey a police state, a bunch of murderers, etc, and, of course, blaming the United States and Israel. It was made perfectly clear that unless Ocalan were not executed, Turkey would never be allowed in the EU (sound familiar Murat?). These are the people Murat thinks have the moral high ground here; these are the people Murat thinks will let him in the EU; these are the people to whom Murat thinks shuld be entrusted the defense of Turkey, Iraq, and the US. How awful Americans are!

Just remember Murat--we demand full, open trials of each member, no matter how long it takes, no matter what sources you compromise, etc. And Noam Chomsky should be allowed to testify before each and every trial--remember when he wanted to do that before Ocalan's (and I think someone else's) trial in Turkey? Maybe it should be done in European courts, now that I think of it.

Why are Turkish citizens more valuable then the ones Al-Q/Baathists kill in Iraq, anyway? Murat seems pretty happy about their dying.

Posted by BMN 2003-11-20 9:19:12 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:19:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Wow,Murat,this Bush guy is smarter than I thought.After all,he can fool the governments and intelligence agencies of Turkey,Saudi-Arabia,Indonesia etc. to think they're being attacked by Islamic terrorists when it's really the CIA that's blowing shit up.
Thank Bog Murat's out there,listening to the voices in his head.
PS.All this talk of "evidence" and "logic" is just so much Western deceit.If people can't prove you wrong,Murat,then whatever you say goes.Right?

Posted by El Id 2003-11-20 9:34:22 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:34:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Why are Turkish citizens more valuable then the ones Al-Q/Baathists kill in Iraq, anyway? Murat seems pretty happy about their dying.

Where has Murat given an indication that he's saddened or upset by today's Turkish deaths? You're unwittingly anthropomorphizing.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 9:34:26 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:34:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Nobody knew about Al Q till 9/11 and now suddenly they are a global terror organisation with tentacles in many countries carrying out attacks while their homefront in Afghanistan is reduced to dust. It is too cheap to write of as an Al Q attack, I simply donât believe it. I donât say Al Q is a sugar candy, absolutely not they are freaking fucked terrorists, but in this bombings I believe the Al Q claim is a distraction to cover the real perpetrators just as the IBDA-C.

The investigating authorities in Turkey have no clue who are behind it, and hide also behind AL Q claims for now.

And for the rest why should Al Queada target Turkey, there are too many questions open, the only terror group who would profit from such acts is the PKK right now enjoying a semi protection by the US.

Which actions did the US take to fight/disarm or disband them. And if the US currently donât have the men and material to do it, why are they refusing Turkey to hunt them down, what kind of fighting terror is that anyway. One of zero credibility!

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 9:36:49 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:36:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Murat, you said the Turkish police had worked out DNA testing of the perpetrators already? What did they use as a basis for comparison?

The DNA of their family members, the trucks they used where traced to belong to family members of the suicide bombers.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 9:40:16 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:40:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Murat, Al Q has been a significant problem for us since at least 1993 (initial WTC bombing). Just because we had a feckless leader at the time, who didn't take decisive action against them, doesn't mean we didn't know about them.

As to your question "why should Al Queada target Turkey" -- why shouldn't they target a secular, majority Islamic country? Their goal is shari'a for all, and Turkey isn't cooperating...

CNN now says that British consul general has been killed. My sympathies to both Turkey & Britain...

Posted by snellenr 2003-11-20 9:50:10 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:50:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Turkish T.V. reported that British Consul-General Roger Short was killed; he had been reported as missing shortly after the blast. But a U.S. official in Turkey told Fox News that there is no confirmation of this report yet.

Bulldog, my condolences.

Posted by Seafarious 2003-11-20 9:57:03 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:57:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 My condolences Bulldog.

Hope that the US change their mind on the PKK soon. The latest about the PKK from their own internet site: Clashes between HPG and the Turkish army in Bingol

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 10:02:54 AM|| 2003-11-20 10:02:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 1. Kurds doesnt mean theyer not AQ - everyone forget about Al Ansar? Kurds arent immune to radical islamism
2. Why would an alliance between PKK and AQ be impossible? For an operation that has mutual benefits?

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-20 10:06:02 AM|| 2003-11-20 10:06:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 HSBC bombing

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 10:10:54 AM|| 2003-11-20 10:10:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Thanks snellenr, Seafarious, Murat(!). Murat, I'm sorry for all the victims, Brits, Turks, all who were killed, mutilated and bereaved today, but I feel anger more than saddness. Today's carnage is already history - what has to be done now is everything possible to stop the same thing happening again, and that means acknowledging who did it and what needs to be done. And that includes not promulgating insane conspiracy theories.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 10:19:17 AM|| 2003-11-20 10:19:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Thank you too Bulldog, hope that the perpetrators are found quickly, and we'll burry them on the bottom of the Bosphorus.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-20 10:25:25 AM|| 2003-11-20 10:25:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 "When they came for the Jews, I did nothing because I wasn't Jewish........" Are we all on board yet?

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2003-11-20 10:41:58 AM|| 2003-11-20 10:41:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 Al Queda is looking to disrupt things in Iraq. It doesn't take a genious to figure the Turks would try to blame the Kurds since they're looking for a reason to smash the Kurds again.

The other thing to look at is Al Queda has attempted to drive westerners out of Indonesia with the Bali bombing, and out of Saudi Arabia with attacks on western compounds, and a similar mindset is probably occuring regarding Turkey and other Islamic states as well, thus the targets were British.

No conspiracy's here.

Posted by ruprecht 2003-11-20 11:10:29 AM|| 2003-11-20 11:10:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 My condolences to both Murat and Bulldog. We all have differing opinions, but we also all agree that this attack was despicable. Regardless of whether the PKK or Al-Q did this we must stand united. Also don't brush off Murat's theory so readily. If the PKK did do this then they may be behind some attacks in Iraq as well. However, before making claims we need the evidence and patterns to fit together.

So for right now lets just concentrate on sorting through the information and not bicker with eachother, please?

Posted by Charles 2003-11-20 11:31:21 AM|| 2003-11-20 11:31:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 Conspiracy theories are a device of authoritarian propaganda, since they depend crucially on the unsupported authority and aggressive assertions of the accuser.
It is far more likely that these explosions were timed to support the anti-Bush demonstrations in London, since the British fifth column media will automatically blame the US for them, and the bigoted masses of the conformist left will eat it up.
Remember, people, the fifth column media do not support the terrorists. It is the other way around: the terrorists support activist media and their blackshirt masses in the so-called "peace movement", providing a violent exclamation mark to their demands and claims.
It has been said that warfare is an extension of politics by other means. If so, terrorism is an extension of advertising by other means, since its objectives are achieved entirely by influencing opinion with the help of collaborationist propaganda.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2003-11-20 11:37:53 AM|| 2003-11-20 11:37:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 Murat: Please accept my sympathies for the families of the people killed in these explosions today and the explosions from the other day. While we will disagree about a lot of things, unfortunately, we now agree that terrorism in all its facits is an abscess that needs to be lanced.

Posted by SamIII 2003-11-20 12:06:00 PM|| [www.samlindsey.com] 2003-11-20 12:06:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Nobody knew about Al Q till 9/11

Murat, that's a bald-faced lie.

African embassy attacks? The Cole?

Clinton's cruise missile strike on al'Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan?

Janet Reno's statements about Iraq and al'Qaeda working together?

And for the rest why should Al Queada target Turkey

Because you're not Islamic enough? Because Turkey is (supposedly) an American ally? Because Turks betrayed the ummah by dissolving the caliphate? Because Turkey actually recognizes Israel's right to exist, even cooperates with Israel?

Why did they attack a nightclub in Bali?

Why did they attack a tourist hotel in (I believe) Kenya?

Why did they attack an Arab housing compound in Riyadh?

You're full of crap, Murat, utterly full of it. I'm sorry for what's happened in Turkey recently, but your constant refusal to THINK makes me worry for the future of Turkey. If a supposedly educated person in Turkey is so easily swayed by his prejudices and bigotry, what does that say about the rest of the country?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-20 12:27:47 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-20 12:27:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Terrorists play no favorites. My condolences to all of those bereaved and injured.

Murat, the mural on the side of the HSBC building. An aiplane and something else. Symbolic? What was that about?

Posted by john 2003-11-20 12:30:55 PM|| 2003-11-20 12:30:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Murat, I have never heard of anyone determining who did a crime, finding family members, and making a DNA match in such a short time. Usually it takes weaks for the tests alone.

Posted by Ruprecht 2003-11-20 1:13:54 PM|| 2003-11-20 1:13:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 I'd say an advertisement for some airline company or something like that.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-20 1:14:57 PM|| 2003-11-20 1:14:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 What if Murat is right and it turns out to be the PKK? What if Turkey decides to pull an Afghanistan on the Kurds in northern Iraq? If the US says no to Turkey, expect to see Murat like we've never seen him yet. If the US allows Turkey to do it's thing in northern Iraq... expect a marriage between Al-Qaeda and the new found enemy of the US for the next 1000 years, the Kurds (betrayed a 2nd time). A one huge can of worms I tell ya.

Posted by Rafael 2003-11-20 2:15:38 PM|| 2003-11-20 2:15:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 What if Murat is right and it turns out to be the PKK?

Then we'll have to fight the PKK while making sure the innocent Kurds are protected.

We DO NOT want to let the Turks have free reign with the Kurds.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-20 2:34:37 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-20 2:34:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Why would PKK attack British interest while Bush is there. Makes no since. Smells like French muslim/Iranian/AQ/Fundies. I'm surprized no Polish soft target yet.

Posted by Lucky 2003-11-20 2:58:32 PM|| 2003-11-20 2:58:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Airliner on the side of a building? Last time I saw that was 9/11.

Posted by john 2003-11-20 3:29:39 PM|| 2003-11-20 3:29:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Rafael, if Murat is correct I would expect the Turks to go to town on their own Kurds first rather than escallate with the US. Any unwelcome action by the Turks into Iraq would result in the Kurds becoming well armed with US equipment very quickly (something Turkey does not want).

Posted by Ruprecht 2003-11-20 4:38:41 PM|| 2003-11-20 4:38:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 WHY should "PKK" attack British or American interests?

The Turkish state are themselves blaming ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM. Especially Turkish Hizbullah...

And guess what. PKK fought against Hizbullah for 8 years. And guess WHO funded Hizbullah during these 8 years? THE TURKISH STATE.

Posted by Berxwedan 2003-11-20 4:55:14 PM|| [http://www.dozame.org] 2003-11-20 4:55:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Re. the DNA testing - nowadays the reactions required to amplify the DNA and process it in order to generate a 'fingerprint' take no more than a few hours, so in theory DNA testing could be done on the same day. After attacks of this nature, however, finding samples which can be confidently identified as uncontaminated remains of the boomers themselves might well be difficult. I wouldn't hold my breath for results.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-20 5:58:54 PM|| 2003-11-20 5:58:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 LH -"Would an alliance between PKK nd AQ be impossible?" Of course it's impossible! The Pious AQ would never deign to work with the PKK! Just like AQ would never coordinate with Iraq; isn't that what the LLL has been saying for months now?

Posted by LeftEnd 2003-11-21 12:03:55 AM|| 2003-11-21 12:03:55 AM|| Front Page Top

21:08 milford
08:56 Anonymous
07:39 Raptor
02:54 B
01:59 JFM
00:11 Old Patriot
00:09 LeftEnd
00:03 LeftEnd
23:59 Old Patriot
23:58 Old Patriot
23:56 Anonymous
23:53 Old Patriot
23:51 Old Patriot
23:43 Zhang Fei
23:40 Old Patriot
23:20 Rafael
23:01 4thinfvet
22:55 Jarhead
22:48 Aris Katsaris
22:42 Lucky
22:24 Rafael
22:20 Paul Moloney
22:16 Raj
22:14 Jarhead