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2003-08-11 Terror Networks

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Posted by 11A5S 2003-08-11 2:37:16 PM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Unbelievable arrogance in the Islamic world?
Surely not!

Religiously sanctioned hatred?
Lust for power?
Judenhass?
From practitioners of the Religion of Peaceâ¢?

I'm shocked, I tells ya, shocked!

Posted by Celissa 2003-8-11 3:44:22 PM|| [http://www.celissasblog.com/] 2003-8-11 3:44:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 And we delude ourselves into thinking that we can TALK to and REASON with these nuts?!?

Posted by SPQR 2755 2003-8-11 4:09:12 PM|| 2003-8-11 4:09:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 who's trying to talk and to and reason with extremist salafist clerics?

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-11 4:17:34 PM|| 2003-8-11 4:17:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I've always maintained that, because one side of this war of civilizations is motivated by their religious beliefs, it behooves us, the other side, to understand those beliefs so we can better predict their behavior and reactions. Sloppy criticism and analysis of Christianity that inclulated false images in a pre-biased audience may have helped the critic's domestic agenda, but similar treatment of Islamist religious beliefs and motives isn't going to be of any help to us, and will postively set us back.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam share the characteristic of having "Defining events": These are events that they point to as proof that their religion is true. Judaism's defining event was when the Ancient Israelites were delivered from Egypt: They were slaves and had no power to deliver themselves, so the conclusion is that it was God who delivered them. Christianity's defining event is the resurrection of Jesus Christ: The apostle Paul himself stated that if Jesus was not raised from the dead, then Christianity was false. Period.

Islam presents two "proofs" for its validity: the literary structure of the Koran, and victory in battle. The Koran is full of challenges for someone to reproduce its literary structure (although the goal posts are continually moved). It also is full of assertions that, "Allah is with you because you won the battle of ____". Military defeats are spun as signs of Allah's disfavor or lack of obedience on the part of the faithful. I, personally, think they live in terror of the day when someone stands up and says, "You guys are persistent losers, so according to your own holy book, your religion is false." They are DESPERATE for a victory to reaffirm their religion.

The detestation of the vice of Hypocrisy is a leftover from the West's Christian heritage: Jesus Christ's most scathing denunciations included the accusation of Hypocrisy. This attitude lacking in Muslims and Islamic culture because neither Mohammed nor the Koran addresses it at all. Muslim apolgists know we dislike hypocrites, but don't share our attitude toward them if they happen to be fellow Muslims. Again, they don't see this form of hypocrisy as bad, since their religion doesn't condemn it at all.

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-11 4:17:54 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-11 4:17:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 agreed ptah, but understanding must be complete - who could claim to understand christianity as a historical who didnt understand the differences between Catholics and Protestants, fundamendatalists and liberals, the western church and the eastern churches? Who could understand Judaism who wasnt familiar with the conflicts between Rabbinism and Kabbalism, pro-Maimonides and anti-Maimonides, Mitnagdish and Chassidish, Reform and Orthodox?

In the same way we must understand Islam as an evolving tradition, and not be captive to literalist interpretations of the founding texts - especially when the issue of how those founding texts are to be interpreted is THE division within Islam today - to take the kinds of statements above as representing the only authentic Islam, and seeing them as the inevitable outgrowth of the Koran, is I think not justified when the makers of said statements regard probably the majority of self-proclaimed muslims as effectively apostates (IE Shiites, Sufists, moderates, and virtually anyone who's not wahabist)

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-11 4:26:28 PM|| 2003-8-11 4:26:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 I like the metaphor of Allah saving their (moslems) bacon.

Posted by mhw 2003-8-11 5:11:24 PM|| 2003-8-11 5:11:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 The Koran doesn't talk about hypocrisy? Wow. They take military defeat as a sign Allah is mad at them? Wow wow. That doesn't bode will for our "kinder / gentler approach". We seem to be missing a few fundamental(ist), points about the culture over there.

OTOH, although all of the details of who believes what are very interesting, in the end it doesn't really matter why they want to kill me as I will still be just as dead. In the end, it is pointless to try to understand or reason with nuts who want to kill everyone who won't tow their line (be they communists, fascists or mullahs). All you can do is contain them until they self destruct or kill them before they kill you. Containing them is better since killing anyone should be avoided, but sometimes some people "just need killin" as they say.

Posted by SPQR 2755 2003-8-11 8:53:25 PM|| 2003-8-11 8:53:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I've said it before: before this is all over, we'll have done things our grandchildren will be ashamed of.

Or we'll lose and they'll wish we had done them.

Posted by Fred 2003-8-11 9:31:43 PM|| 2003-8-11 9:31:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Fred: That's what I was trying to say only you said it much better.

Posted by SPQR 2755 2003-8-11 9:42:25 PM|| 2003-8-11 9:42:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I have to disagree, Liberalhawk: The Islamists we're fighting are the ones who take their Koran seriously. The Fundamentalists, so to speak. Given the contents of the Koran, the equivalents in Islam of the moderates and liberals have a tough time spinning the texts toward a non-violent and more progressive slant. Exegete something wrong, and you'll be losing your head. Literally.

I agree that there are differences within Islam, with some branches more pacifistic than others. For the moment, however, the branches we're worried about ARE the fundamentalists, and we need all the insight we can get, so we can get into their heads, figure out how they tick, and how to defuse and/or defeat them.

Another Koran factoid: Islam is very works oriented, with admission to paradise based on lots of prayer, charity, the Haj, and fasting on the right days. It's in the koran that dying in battle against the Infidel is a guaranteed ticket to heaven, bypassing all this works stuff.

However, the promise of 72 Virgins in the afterlife is NOT in the Koran, but in associated commentary.

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-11 9:52:30 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-11 9:52:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Two World Views in collision.

I don't have the exact quote available anymore, but it was approximately this:

"The battle has already been joined and it is a war of virtue vs. freedom."

This was stated by the chief Saudi cleric a few weeks after the 9/11 attack - which I watched live right after coming "home" from work that day. Note that every reference to the statement has been scrubbed from ArabNews (and everywhere else I've looked, so far) - where I first saw it. I was on contract in Saudi Arabia, this time - I also worked there in '92-'93, from Sept 30, 2000 until April 19, 2003.

We did not start this. It will not end until our blinders are off and we have seen the face of this implacable enemy of freedom. Eventually we will set aside the drivel from the apologists and those who hope to delay our response long enough to defeat us by subversion, if not open warfare. Eventually enough of us will recognize the threat for what it is: nothing less than the survival of freedom. Eventually enough of us will finally accept what must be done. It will be a real bitch - and bloodier than anything the world has yet seen - and that's certainly saying something.

Do not forget, however, that this came to us unbidden and unwarranted. It is their doing - and eventual undoing. Don't feel guilty or remorseful - any more than you would if you killed a scorpion you found in your baby's crib. This foe must be utterly and completely wiped out. It is a pathogen and should be dealt with as such.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by Â·com 2003-8-11 10:03:32 PM|| 2003-8-11 10:03:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Yep, what .com says.

Posted by Lucky 2003-8-11 11:01:14 PM|| 2003-8-11 11:01:14 PM|| Front Page Top

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