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2004-02-21 
[Encouraging Sign] -- World’s largest Muslim group urges dialogue with West
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Posted by cingold 2004-02-21 12:11:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 My first question Iman, most holy cleric, person of knowledge. Could you explain apostophy law?
Posted by Lucky 2004-2-21 12:26:36 AM||   2004-2-21 12:26:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Lucky, IMHO, on the positive side, Indonesia was first Buddhist, then Hindu, then Muslim, then colonized/anemically introduced to Christianity. The general Indonesian version of Islam tends to retain the influence of all those predecessors, and is not necessarily antagonistic to Christianity or the “Western” worldview. The old pastime in the villages was the wayang kulit, or Indonesian version of “Punch and Judy,” which are derivative stories based on Indian/Hindu epics. The prototypic Indonesian worldview places a lot of importance on maintaining harmony and balance, and (generally, again IMHO) the average Indonesian is pretty fed up with islamofascists.
Posted by cingold 2004-2-21 12:52:50 AM||   2004-2-21 12:52:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Rantburg U, cingold. Where would we be without words. Smelling stinky things thats where. And you all know I'm right! But my qusetion remains. Please, someone who has this figured out in a positive way, lay it on me. I'm easily convinced. Should one be killed for their rejectiono of MO.(El Faker)
Posted by Lucky 2004-2-21 1:13:17 AM||   2004-2-21 1:13:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Islamic institutions of higher learning is an oxymoron in my opinion. And note I have been to Indonesia quite a number of times.
Posted by phil_b 2004-2-21 5:17:23 AM||   2004-2-21 5:17:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Wasn't there a tri-faith (Judaism, Islam, Catholicism) get-together a couple of years ago somewhere in the mid-east? It didn't end very well as I recall. In fact, it was somewhat of a joke.
Posted by Rafael 2004-2-21 7:48:45 AM||   2004-2-21 7:48:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Lucky I believe is asking about colonic law as it applies to possesors... mainly what happens to those who wish to leave the one true region?
Posted by Shipman 2004-2-21 8:32:14 AM||   2004-2-21 8:32:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 well - depending on whose on their list of speakers - I don't see how this can be a bad thing.
Posted by B 2004-2-21 9:50:54 AM||   2004-2-21 9:50:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Cingold -- good points, but really true only in regard to eastern and central Java. Northern Sumatra (Aceh) has been "fundamentalist" for a long time. Close historical connections with southern Yemen (OBL's ancestral homeland). In Java, "syncratists" (whose lax Islam is mixed with Hindu, Buddhist, and animist beliefs)are in a dire struggle with orthodoxy - which is spreading rapidly. I could foresee a civil war in Java between these two factions. And Lucky is absolutely right: the truly orthodox view the syncratists as apostates, worthy only of death.
My hat is off to all of the world's heterodox Muslims -- the poor bastards have it tough. Christian areas in Indonesia include the Lake Toba area just south of Aceh and the northern peninsula of Sulawesi (the Bataks and the Minahasa). I worry about them too.
Posted by closet neo-con 2004-2-21 12:02:50 PM||   2004-2-21 12:02:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Sounds like a hudna to me. The fact that they are talking about this means they feel the heat on their nuts. I don't think there is one thing to be gained from a dialogue with Muslims. They have no honor and no respect for treaties. The only thing I want to hear them say is that they will stay in their own little corner of hell and stop trying to infect everyone else with their insanity.
Posted by BH  2004-2-21 12:55:59 PM||   2004-2-21 12:55:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 The points made are well taken, but I still think the situation in Indonesia is a bit different than most people realize. If you look at the area involved (see, e.g., CIA Factbook), you can appreciate that this has to be a diverse country -- even much more so than the U.S. Indonesia is the world’s largest archipelago, comprised of more than 17,000 islands (6,000 of which are inhabited). In length it stretches about the distance of Maine to California, but (in terms of area) occupies about the landmass of the U.S. east of the Mississippi. The number of native languages spoken by different groups in Indonesia is staggering, and cultural differences can be extreme. It cannot be surprising that the very motto of the nation is “Unity in Diversity.”

That said, clearly the politicians of Indonesia are keenly aware that any move toward autonomy on the part of any subculture/people group (including islamofascists) could precipitate a cascade of seditionist autonomy seeking that would result in the very dissolution of the nation. Cohesion is king -- naturally leading to some paranoia and (at times) flat out abusive tactics.

Nonetheless, the composition of the Indonesian political picture is telling. It can be examined along Traditionalist, Modernist, Nationalist, and Religious lines. About 37% of Indonesians are Abangan (which is Traditionalist and Nationalistic): associated with the indigenous animist mysticism of the general population of Java, and Megawati Soekarnoputri (the woman president of the county) falls into this category. About 15% of Indonesians are Priyayi (which is Modernist and Nationalistic): associated with the Hindu-Buddhist mysticism of the old Javanese royalty. About 27% of Indonesians are Syncretic Muslimin (which is Traditionalist and Religious): associated with a syncretic mix of Islam and the indigenous mysticism of the general population. Only 12% are Textual Muslimin (which is considered Modernist and Religious): associated with a textual, or literal, Islam and the aesthetics [editorial note: cough, cough, puke, cough] of Arabia.

Indonesia is a democratic constitutional republic, and the government is divided into executive, legislative and judicial branches. The law is based on Roman-Dutch law, substantially modified by indigenous concepts and by more modern concepts of criminal procedure.

Although most Indonesians would at least nominally identify themselves as Muslims, the overwhelming majority extend religious tolerance. Hinduism thrives on Bali, and Christianity has a significant presence on Sulawesi, Flores, Timor, and several other islands as well as among the Batak’s in Sumatra.

Sorry for the long post, but I don’t think you can paint all Indonesians with the same brush. As for apostasy laws -- there are no official ones. Regarding the views of religious leaders in Indonesia, I think it depends (again) on whether you are talking about the 27% of Indonesians who are Syncretic Muslimin (and probably wouldn’t care), or the 12% who are Textual Muslimin (who would). As of January 26, 2004, this year alone Muslim protestors had attacked at least four churches in the regions of East Java, West Java and North Sumatra, Indonesia -- so militant islamofascists are, and have been a longstanding problem in Indonesia, but (again) they are the minority. A good take on the religious situation in Indonesia can be obtained through a Christian group call the Voice of the Martyrs, which writes “A report released on February 3 by the International Crisis Group (ICG) suggests that, while there has been some progress in the battle against militant Islamic groups in Indonesia, there remains an ‘under appreciated longer term security risk,’ particularly with the rise of a new group, ‘Mujahidin KOMPAK.’" It’s a mixed bag in Indonesia, but a distinction definitely has to be made between the majority of Indonesians who are tolerant and open minded, and the pronounced minority who are islamofascists.
Posted by cingold 2004-2-21 8:44:06 PM||   2004-2-21 8:44:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 cingold. Long post my ass. Way to go. But my question still lingers. These Muslims of the 27%. The Syncretics. What is their take on my question. And what is their take on the 12%.
Posted by Lucky 2004-2-21 10:40:36 PM||   2004-2-21 10:40:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Lucky -- Like everything in Indonesia, it’s not a simple answer, but more of a continuum of opinions, I think. Even the Syncretic Muslimin (the 27%) would be concerned if it seemed the Christians were “taking over,” which is (I think) why you get mob violence against (usually evangelical) Churches in Indonesia. This also is, I think, why the Indonesian government underreports the number of Christians in Indonesia and stays out of those disputes (even when Churches get burnt down) -- kind of an appeasement, as long as no one is killed (and sometimes even then). But, in general, conversions are tolerated by the Indonesian Syncretic Muslimin -- that is, they won’t go out of their way to get you, but they might not like you. The Nationalists (some 52% of the country) would be even more tolerant.

Regarding the Textual Muslimin (the 12%), the Syncretic Muslimin leaders see the extremist radical groups as having connections with theological or organizational groups outside of Indonesia. They do not support legislating observance of sharia law. However, they are somewhat sympathetic to the radical groups -- to the extent that they see the radicalism of the groups as an expression of anger against the failures of the Indonesian government to improve living conditions in Indonesia. Nonetheless, the largest mainstream Syncretic Muslimin organizations, the Nahdlatul Ulama and the Muhammadiyah, have rejected the violence of the islamofascists, have agreed to carry out joint activities to combat extremism, and their leaders have appealed to the government to take harsh measures against lawbreakers. A long discussion of these matters (even if a bit dated) appears at this link: ISLAM IN MODERN INDONESIA
Posted by cingold 2004-2-21 11:33:43 PM||   2004-2-21 11:33:43 PM|| Front Page Top

02:01 .com
01:24 BP
07:38 B
03:01 NotMike Moore
00:15 OldSpook
23:33 cingold
23:27 smokeysinse
23:25 Lucky
23:23 NotMike Moore
23:19 SON OF TOLUI
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23:10 Lucky
23:09 Valentine
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23:08 Zhang Fei
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23:00 Old Patriot
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22:40 Lucky









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