Article

2005-05-09 Europe

VE Day: A Tainted Victory? Or a Supreme Emergency?

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Posted by rkb 2005-05-09 1:34:44 PM|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 No victory against the Nazis is tainted, no matter how much post-modern, relativist hand-wringing we might want to indulge in.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-05-09 14:11|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-05-09 14:11|| Front Page Top

#2 The salient point here is that the Germans and Japanese fought like hell and damned near won the war. The question for Churchill et al. was not: how can we win this war in the most morally responsible manner possible?, but rather: are we going to win this war at all? Moral judgments made by those who know the outcome of the war and have had sixty years to ruminate on it, IMHO, should be approached with a large grain of salt.

Posted by Matt 2005-05-09 14:19|| 2005-05-09 14:19|| Front Page Top

#3 More 9/10 belch.

There's a certain segment of academia or thinktankademia that's paid to agonize over whether victory's "tainted." Sorry. I'll take mine straight. Why argue the inarguable?

"This is not an easy argument to make, and yet we must resist every effort to make it easier ..." simply doesn't make it for me. All the agonizing should have been completed by 9-12-2001. I prefer the cold-blooded approach to the current war: You have attacked me and mine; you may surrender, or you and yours are at risk.

Posted by Fred 2005-05-09 14:33|| 2005-05-09 14:33|| Front Page Top

#4 This debate distills quite nicely why liberals cannot be trusted with national security. They are usually stuck in one of two mindsets (some times both simultaneously):

1. There is no real threat. You have a greater chance of getting struck by a car then getting killed by a hijacker, Hitler wasn't that bad, blah blah blah.

or

2. There is a threat, but, well, what can we do? If we fight, then they'll get mad and fight even more, and even if they don't get mad, then we'll hurt innocent civilians, and that will make them mad and then they'll fight against us, and we've made the problem worse. Maybe we can get the UN to pass a resolution? How about an arrest warrant on that Mussolini chap? That'll show him we mean business. Where do we sign the surrender papers?

Posted by Dreadnought 2005-05-09 14:54|| 2005-05-09 14:54|| Front Page Top

#5 These guys are making academic points. To me, the question here is whose lives are worth more to us - our soldiers and civilians or their soldiers and civilians. From my perspective, my relatives and friends are more important than their relatives and friends. Period.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2005-05-09 14:59|| timurileng.blogspot.com]">[timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-05-09 14:59|| Front Page Top

#6 Robin's excerpts from Walzer's writings are well worth reading, as are Armed Liberal's refutations of Niall Ferguson's steaming pile of crap in the Sunday LA Times (next post down from Robin's at WoC).

The notion that there can ever be any such thing, in practice, as an "immaculate" war-- or that we should hang our heads in shame because our war against Hitler and Tojo wasn't immaculate-- is fatuous nonsense; war is Hell.

May as well get used to that simple fact, or else get used to dying in the likes of a Nazi concentration camp, or a Soviet gulag, or being shot in the back of the head by some dirty raghead because he's decreed you an "infidel".

Posted by Dave D. 2005-05-09 15:01|| 2005-05-09 15:01|| Front Page Top

#7 Walzers book is used (or at least was until recently, can't swear to this past year) in the ethics class at West Point, by the way. It's generally regarded as one of the best discussions of various issues in warfare and goes into difficult, detailed case studies for that purpose.

Dave pretty much nails the reason I posted this. I personally agree with Walzer that we should never become comfortable with doing what is needed .... but that when enough is at stake, necessity overrides the rules I would otherwise hold myself to.

The difficulty always is: when have we reached that point?

Posted by rkb 2005-05-09 15:11|| 2005-05-09 15:11|| Front Page Top

#8 Robin, I "saw" the 60 Minutes piece on West Point yesterday. (Actually "heard" it on WCBS radio as I drove south on the Jersey Turnpike.) As I heard it, the piece was nicely done, except for a few typical snide jabs at the President and I thought the cadets handled themselves magnificently. When he was asked about insurgent warfare, the cadet said, "I will need to study harder so I'm ready when I get to Iraq." Bravo to them. How was it received at the Point?

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2005-05-09 15:25|| 2005-05-09 15:25|| Front Page Top

#9 Robin, you're needed in the Club, STAT.

Posted by AutoBartender 2005-05-09 15:31|| 2005-05-09 15:31|| Front Page Top

#10 "It is good that war is terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."

- General Robert E. Lee

Posted by mojo">mojo 2005-05-09 15:44|| 2005-05-09 15:44|| Front Page Top

#11 Both sides were in a TOTAL WAR. That means your total country and its interests will be wared upon. Including civies. As Sherman said, "It is good that war is so horrible, lest we grow too fond of it." The post-war hand wringing does no one any good and devalues what was fough and died for during that conflict.

Posted by mmurray821 2005-05-09 15:46|| 2005-05-09 15:46|| Front Page Top

#12 Pretty well from what I've heard, Sea.

AB, I went over to the club and cleaned up my mess. (embarassment)

Posted by rkb 2005-05-09 16:08|| 2005-05-09 16:08|| Front Page Top

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