Article

2009-03-25 Home Front: WoT

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tu3031 2009-03-25 09:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 Would it be hard to search to find 'bitchn' about the 'large' number of lesser awards handed out 'compared to other wars' (ie Silver/Bronze Stars w/V device etc)? Even in peacetime the awards process was hijacked for administrative purposes (de facto PCS awards for just doing a clean tour).

Posted by Procopius2k 2009-03-25 10:18|| 2009-03-25 10:18|| Front Page Top

#2 This has long been my argument. There is now only one living MOH recipient for every 3.4 MILLION Americans. Most Americans have never met one, and have no idea what a MOH represents.

Again, as evidenced by the notorious Phoenix Sky Harbor outrage against MOH recipient, WWII ace USMC pilot Joe Foss.

Combine that with some of the awesome, almost super human acts of heroism in Iraq and Afghanistan we have been reading about here on Rantburg, and you have to ask the question: what is the problem here?

Contrary to practice, death should almost disqualify a recipient, as only part of the purpose of the MOH is directly to them for their heroism. The MOH is as much presented to their family, their community, their State and their nation for having produced them.

They need to see it on living heroes, not just on tombstones and in decorative cases on walls. It is not a work of art for a museum. And for the rest of their lives, MOH recipients have the duty to display the MOH, as there is nothing in their lives they can subsequently do that is more important than this honorable display.

Were a MOH recipient to be elected President of the United States, their being President would be secondary to being a MOH recipient. While as President he would be Chief Executive of the government, as a MOH recipient, he would be a representative not just of the nation, but all Americans.

And that is a greater role than the Presidency.

Posted by Anonymoose 2009-03-25 10:20|| 2009-03-25 10:20|| Front Page Top

#3 Be on guard, it could also be a SHE recipient! In fact, some of the females soldiers are brilliant at logistics, physical outdoor labor AND management. There are lots of women soldiers and women vets today. In fact, someday we could have a female POTUS who is a living Medal of Honor recipient. Dont laugh because stranger things have happened. If Obama can be elected with his light resume, anything is possible.

Posted by GirlThursday 2009-03-25 10:42|| 2009-03-25 10:42|| Front Page Top

#4 Guys! CMC: Living MoH Recipient May Be Coming!

http://www.chandlerswatch.com/2009/03/13/cmc-living-moh-recipient-may-be-coming/

Posted by Chandler 2009-03-25 11:34|| 2009-03-25 11:34|| Front Page Top

#5 There's something about these valor award puff pieces which brings out the callous contrarian black-hearted bastard in me, but I have to argue that there's fewer MoH awards because the War on Terror environment provides fewer demands for MoH behavior.

Look at Paul R. Smith's award. It's classic MoH material, a self-sacrificing forlorn hope in a key moment which pulled victory out of a possible reverse. Moments like that have been thankfully rare, outside of Second Fallujah, Ramallah during 2007 and the sieges in the cities of the south during the spring and summer of 2004.

Metals of Honor are for the wild men who charge machine gun nests, drop on grenades, and perform other patently self-sacrificial acts of heroism which should get warriors killed, and usually do. These are acts which were routinely required by the demands of mass infantry warfare. Throughout the 20th century, military tactical science's key and proper focus was on eliminating the need for this sort of thing. A Metal of Honor should be the result of a tactical situation gone horribly, horribly wrong, such that the only solution was in some warrior's personal willingness to literally spend himself to prevent disaster. Above and beyond the call of duty.

On the other hand... we don't ask soldiers or marines to make massed attacks, or to "go over the top" any more. Personal armor & dispersed infantry tactics means that their lives aren't routinely expended in the common course of a successful attack. Self-sacrifice takes a lot more effort now, than it did in the days of machine gun nests & open-field regimental charges.

What's being acknowledged with these awards? Bravery, or self-sacrifice? There's a certain sneaking suspicion, here, that we've somehow encoded bravery, no matter how extreme, as a part of the definition of duty, which makes it impossible to get past the threshold of "above and beyond" without actually dying.

Posted by Mitch H.">Mitch H. 2009-03-25 11:37|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2009-03-25 11:37|| Front Page Top

#6 callous contrarian black-hearted bastard in me

Is there a web-link, support group, society or club?

Posted by Besoeker 2009-03-25 11:41|| 2009-03-25 11:41|| Front Page Top

#7 They don't award them because as soon as they do, the media will be all over this "supposed American hero" and watch every step he makes, every time he picks his nose at a stoplight, every time he takes a floozy home from a bar, all the while saying hurtful, destructive things about America. "Today it was revealed by our crack investigative team that Joe P. Medalofhonor can't keep his checkbook balanced. If this is so, then what can it mean for the rest of America? More at 10"

Posted by gromky 2009-03-25 11:47|| 2009-03-25 11:47|| Front Page Top

#8 Early on in the war, there was a fuel truck driver whose truck took an RPG. He could have jumped out of the truck and saved himself, but there were many soldiers around that would have died. He heroically drove the truck away while he was on fire. He lived, but was severely disfigured and had his hands just about burned off. I think he was from Visalia, Ca.

What ever happened to him? I would appreciate it if someone could find out.

Posted by Penguin 2009-03-25 11:58|| 2009-03-25 11:58|| Front Page Top

#9 @#5 Mitch H.

The word is "Medal" not Metal. How can you expect to be taken seriously if you don't know the difference between the two words?

Posted by Trader_DFW 2009-03-25 12:25|| 2009-03-25 12:25|| Front Page Top

#10 Two generations ago you could ask a kid who his heroes were, and he could name at least one real person.

Today if you ask a kid the same question you'll only get fictional characters.

We no longer want real heroes. If someone starts looking suspiciously heroic, the media go out of their way to destroy that person. Just another example of the conscious, methodical and inexorable destruction of American culture.

FYI -- Teddy Roosevelt. Only MOH winner to ever serve as president.

Posted by Iblis 2009-03-25 13:41|| 2009-03-25 13:41|| Front Page Top

#11 Trader: Yup, that there is a textbook spoonerism.

I suck. Oh, well.

Iblis: they gave Teddy a Medal of Honor in 2001?

Posted by Mitch H.">Mitch H. 2009-03-25 14:10|| http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]">[http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/] 2009-03-25 14:10|| Front Page Top

#12 What happens when your Marine platoon moves into a well coordinated ambush?
Well, if you are CAPT BRIAN CHONTOSH, you jump out of your vehicle, carve an "S" into your chest and charge into an entrenched enemy position.

Posted by Anon4021 2009-03-25 14:15|| 2009-03-25 14:15|| Front Page Top

#13 Oh, and you WIN.

Posted by Anon4021 2009-03-25 14:20|| 2009-03-25 14:20|| Front Page Top

#14 Having a spent a year over there myself, here's a few thoughts:

1. Lower-level medals are now given away like candy. I got a Bronze Star (Meritorious), and I can honestly say I don't feel comfortable having it for what I did. Don't know if that's the military's way of compensating for tightening up the higher level valorous awards.

2. The very nature of the conflict limits the opportunities for MOH-type behavior. Arabs don't like to stand and fight for long periods, and if your opponent won't stick around to duke it out, do-or-die heroics usually aren't required.

3. It feels like the burden of proof has shifted to the troops. I was in a convoy that got hit by an IED. I eventually got around to applying for the Navy's Combat Action Ribbon, but after reading the instruction, I lost interest. I had to prove that my vehicle was the target and not the one behind me. On the other hand, if you were in a helicopter that got shot at, everyone onboard got a CAR. (The Army's Combat Action Badge requirements are much looser, but that doesn't help me.)

4. MOH requirements have evolved over time. During the Civil War, it was given to entire units that reenlisted. For a time, Navy personnel who risked life and limb during engineering casualties could get it. It looks like it has gotten to the point where the prevailing thought with the paper-pushers is "Since you're still alive, it couldn't have been that dangerous."

Posted by Dreadnought 2009-03-25 15:13|| 2009-03-25 15:13|| Front Page Top

#15 I am with Mitch H on this one
The highest levels of heroism frequently come about because someone high up screwed up. E.g. the heroism of the DDs and DEs in the Battle off Samar in WWII would not have been possible if Halsey had not screwed up and left the Straights unguarded.

Since Vietnam, our enemies have been less capable and our generals more cautious, so the chances that our conventional troops will find themselves unsupported and surrounded by overwhelming numbers of the enemy is pretty slim.

That being said, the stories I have read have shown today's troops to be the most corageous America has ever fielded. America's Finest are truely awe inspiring.

Posted by Frozen Al 2009-03-25 15:42|| 2009-03-25 15:42|| Front Page Top

#16 Having not served a day, I have a sneaking suspicion that Dreadnought may be a tad modest. I appreciate your service and obviously so did the officer who recommended you.

Part of the value of these medals is for the rest of the nation. They identify those among us who have defended us all. I think far too few MOHs are awarded, for a lot of reasons. And it's too bad. Because I suspect there has been a lot of courage above and beyond over the last 5 years. And as a nation we should recognize it and appreciate it.

I urge you all to proudly display your medals for your children to see so they know the courage to serve and defend their country runs in their blood.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2009-03-25 16:59|| 2009-03-25 16:59|| Front Page Top

#17 thank you for your service (and modesty), Dreadnought

Frank

Posted by Frank G 2009-03-25 17:04|| 2009-03-25 17:04|| Front Page Top

#18 LBJ biographer Robert Caro has called the medal "one of the most undeserved Silver Stars in history."
I would nominate John F'n Kerry's Silver Star as another example.

Posted by Rambler in Virginia">Rambler in Virginia 2009-03-25 17:06|| 2009-03-25 17:06|| Front Page Top

#19 Technology has reduced close quarter' combat. And that is where most MoH awards are earned.

Posted by Shavirt Forkbeard8424 2009-03-25 17:10|| 2009-03-25 17:10|| Front Page Top

#20 Seems to me, most MOH's come when someone's really in the s***. Perhaps that happens less these days because the Armed Forces are more professional and less likely to leave troops in untenable situations?

Posted by Woodrow Gravique1456 2009-03-25 17:22|| 2009-03-25 17:22|| Front Page Top

#21 NS & Frank,

You are both too kind. Unfortunately if you were privy to the machinations and politicking that some went through to get awards, especially the Bronze Star (M), you'd be sick. Also I grew up in the Navy Surface fleet where the philosophy long ago on medals was summed up as "Handshake in lieu of first award," so perhaps I'm conditioned to look at large numbers of administrative (not valorous) awards skeptically.

Personally, I think the root cause of a lot of this the same self-esteem building crap that's infected the rest of our society, but that's a different post.

Posted by Dreadnought 2009-03-25 19:52|| 2009-03-25 19:52|| Front Page Top

#22 maybe so, but I stand by my thank you

Posted by Frank G 2009-03-25 19:59|| 2009-03-25 19:59|| Front Page Top

#23 it also depends on your branch of service. I knew a lot of enlisted guys that got screwed because higher HQMC made us "ration" our awards.

I've met two MOH recipients - Col Wes Fox, USMC, and LT Mike Thornton, Seal. Amazing men to the n'th degree.

Posted by Broadhead6 2009-03-25 20:38|| 2009-03-25 20:38|| Front Page Top

#24 BTW, the first time I was leaving Iraq they put my boss (a LtCol) in for a Bronze Star, he told his boss (the full bird) he would flat refuse to wear it as he didn't think he rated it. They withdrew the award write up shortly after.

Posted by Broadhead6 2009-03-25 20:40|| 2009-03-25 20:40|| Front Page Top

#25 I respectfully disagree about there having to have been a momentous failure as a prerequisite to heroism. In fact, the best recommendation for a MOH is that they severely damage the enemy forces, and do so in a way that uplifts the war effort. The very best way is to plow through the enemy "like a hot knife through butter."

An excellent example, which merited a Silver Star, was of Army Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester from Kentucky, who along with her Staff Sgt., wiped out an enemy ambush killing 27 enemy. With an M203 grenade launcher and hand grenades she cleaned their trenches.

This was close to MOH standards, and she should have been sent on tour throughout the US on a recruiting drive. The importance of her actions is found in the the idea: "I am a woman and I did this." She doesn't have to say that, but that is what everyone she met would think.

Time and time again, especially in Iraq, the numbers really start to add up. Snipers with 200 kills in their book, soldiers and Marines facing off against hundreds of enemy and winning through discipline and backbone, though wounded multiple times. Etc., etc.

Not all of MOH caliber, of course, but there's got to be some in there.

Posted by Anonymoose 2009-03-25 21:11|| 2009-03-25 21:11|| Front Page Top

#26 Dreadnought, I suspect I've lived a couple of times the number of years you have. I doubt there's much in the way of machinations and politics involved with medals that would surprise me as that sort of thing is endemic in all human activity. Ever thought about the politicking that goes into electing a Pope? But 99 times out of 100 you had to at least be near the shooting to get the award and that's good enough for me.

I'm a pretty self-deprecating sort myself and I've never thought well of those who feel compelled to have a Wall of Fame. But modesty can be taken too far. Consider, should you hide your light under a basket? I hope as you get older you appreciate more what an amazing and wonderful thing you all did, liberating 25 million people from the clutches of one or the other dictatorships in spite of all the machinations and politicking here and there. The medal is a small token of your nation's thanks and admiration.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2009-03-25 21:32|| 2009-03-25 21:32|| Front Page Top

23:37 Secret Master
23:25 crazyhorse
23:18 Penguin
23:17 Penguin
22:58 JosephMendiola
22:12 JosephMendiola
22:08 JosephMendiola
21:33 Rambler in Virginia
21:32 Nimble Spemble
21:27 Uncle Phester
21:24 Uncle Phester
21:11 Anonymoose
20:42 Barbara Skolaut
20:40 Barbara Skolaut
20:40 Broadhead6
20:38 Broadhead6
20:36 rabid whitetail
20:34 rabid whitetail
20:34 Barbara Skolaut
20:33 rabid whitetail
20:23 JohnQC
20:21 Old Patriot
20:13 JosephMendiola
20:10 JosephMendiola