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2004-09-04 Caucasus
Russia seals off North Ossetia
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Posted by Dan Darling 2004-09-04 2:13:10 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 
the European Union, in a statement issued once the scale of death became apparent, also wanted an explanation from Russia "how this tragedy could have happened."
It could happen because YOU - the EU - have spent decades appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists. And you're still doing it.

Fucking assholes. FOAD.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-09-04 2:35:46 AM||   2004-09-04 2:35:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 "Putin pledged a crackdown on anyone supporting the gunmen. "

They need to check the security personnel at checkpoints. The terrorists had to bribe their way through, no other way. Once the bribed are found, they need to be locked up for a long time. Exemplarily.
Posted by Zarathustra  2004-09-04 2:40:24 AM||   2004-09-04 2:40:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "Anyone who will feels sympathetic toward such provocations will be viewed as accomplices of terrorists and terrorism."

I am going to add. Anyone meeting the above critera are my sworn foe from this date forward. If I have it in my power I will personally snuff out their evil worthless life. This is not a political or spritual difference. These evil cowards are a threat to all human kind and must be run to ground and killed.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-04 2:41:06 AM||   2004-09-04 2:41:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 the European Union, in a statement issued once the scale of death became apparent, also wanted an explanation from Russia "how this tragedy could have happened."

What asshole, what insensitive group of pigs, could put out such a piece of unmitigated shit at such a time. Or any time.

Whoever wrote this should be turned over to the people who lost their families to the barbarians.

They'll know what to do.
Posted by RMcLeod  2004-09-04 3:16:33 AM||   2004-09-04 3:16:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Seal it off on one end, put infantry on the flanks, and drive every tank they have through every town they have, and blow up and flatten every Mosque there. And leave the body of the local Clerics on a hanging from gibbet made from the doorway in the middle of the rubble, with a ham in his mouth that was used to asphyxiate him before he was hung.

Yes I am that righteously angry.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-09-04 3:20:50 AM||   2004-09-04 3:20:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 skip righteous anger for a moment and look at it as stimulus and response. Currently, they perform an action (terrorism, blackmail, negotiation) and they get a response that usually benefits them.

If you want to discourage these guys, you react in such a way as to go against their goals.

The logical response is to round up all local moslems and either export them or execute them. Reduce the area under their control permanantly every time they act in an undesirable way.

It will take a few bloody examples, but it would solve the problem, unlike current methods.
Posted by flash91 2004-09-04 3:50:46 AM||   2004-09-04 3:50:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I sense a certain hardening of attitudes here.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 4:30:41 AM||   2004-09-04 4:30:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Man O man, we need to get a lid on Iraq as of yesterday! By hook or by crook we need to bring down Iran AND Syria ASAP!

The EU is obviously ran by ignorant ass clowns! Their opinion means less than nothing!

Finish things in Iraq.

Re-elect W.

Get this crap over with!!!
Posted by RJB in JC MO 2004-09-04 7:38:38 AM||   2004-09-04 7:38:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 the European Union, in a statement issued once the scale of death became apparent, also wanted an explanation from Russia "how this tragedy could have happened."
It could happen because YOU - the EU - have spent decades appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists. And you're still doing it.

Fucking assholes. FOAD.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut


Couldnt agree more Barbara . I'd like to add that they sap my will and strength to live in UK too :(
Posted by MacNails 2004-09-04 7:52:45 AM||   2004-09-04 7:52:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I'll tell you how it could happen.Because the EU is run by a bunch of wimpy-ass,cowardly,Islamo-ass-kissing punks.What you want to bet this happens in France next?
Take the gloves off,seal off Chechneya and capture or kill every Moslem fanatic carrying a weapon,blow-up every building used to store weapons and material,deport everyone and they're extended familys suspected of suporting terrorists.Drop enough high-exploisive ordance to collapse the Pankisi Gorge,then bounce the rubble.
How in the Hell are you going to"nuance"this J."Friggin"Kerry,you POS?
Posted by Raptor 2004-09-04 9:10:20 AM||   2004-09-04 9:10:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 It could happen because YOU - the EU - have spent decades appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists. And you're still doing it.

America doesn't exactly have the high ground in accusations of appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists, you know. Not in the past, and not in the modern day either.

Talking about Wahabbism connections, your ally the USA-sucked-up and USA-appeased dictator of Saudi Arabia has done his own share of promotimg.

I'm afraid that using excuses of EU appeasement, can only plausibly work with Palestinian-related massacres.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 9:18:11 AM||   2004-09-04 9:18:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Raptor> "Take the gloves off,"?

Oh, yeah -- and your belief that gloves had stayed on earlier is derived from what exactly?

Everything you suggest has ALREADY HAPPENED, AFAIK, AND MUCH MORE BESIDES -- except perhaps "deport everyone and their extended families suspected of supporting terrorists" since you don't seem to know that you have to have somewhere to deport people *to*, before you can deport them anywhere. Stalin used Siberia I believe, but that's not called "deporting" that's "relocating".

I'm tired of these cliches of the "the gloves must come off". The gloves were never worn in Chechenya people -- hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in indiscriminate bombing. What ever made you think that wasn't the case?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 9:26:09 AM||   2004-09-04 9:26:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 "hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in indiscriminate bombing"

Got a source for that, Aris? Or is this the same kind of accusation left-tools made against us in Vietnam, holy wisdom to Euros but a fucking lie to eyewitnesses, myself included. The population of Chechnya was less than a million in 1994 and the country is still inhabited at last report. How do you establish that bombing is "indiscriminate"? What standards and information are used in making this accusation of a war crime?

This business of sucking up to dictators is another moth-eaten lefty canard. Every country in the world must have some kind of contact with various regimes that it does not control. Only after the fact is this cherry-picked and selectively characterized with the useful Stalinist ambuity "support."

Ask 10 leftists who the dictator of Chile is.
Few will give a name but 9 of them will be sure there is one and that he is an American tool.

Castro has preached this shit since 1961, get a new line.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 9:42:08 AM||   2004-09-04 9:42:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Got a source for that, Aris?

Yeah, he's got a source for that. It's from kavkaz.org, a pro Chechen site, which got its info from a Russian human rights organization, which got its information from a pair of leftists writers who pull the numbers out their ass.

The truth is no one really knows how large or small the number of dead and displaced are in Chechnya. Those who claim they do usualy have a pro-Chechen ( or pro-murder ) point of view to press home.
Posted by badanov  2004-09-04 9:52:09 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-04 9:52:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 The Pankisi Gorge has not been collapsed btw, but such a thing is not impossible.

There are more practical measures that can be taken as well, involving action outside the immediate theater of operations. These were not possible earlier, but may be in the near future.

It is true that the chief instigators of Chechen Islamic terrorism have been under US protection. There is a strong probability that this will change, though we may never hear anything definite about it.

Putin's dealings with the Iranian mullahs give him quite a bit of leverage in this respect. It is conceivable, though not likely, that this was a significant reason for the Iranian nuclear deals in the first place----to provide a big bargaining chip when the time came.

I am ready to deal but the White House won't be until after November 3, and may never be if the election results are not favorable.

Your dismissal of the possibility of additional measures, Aris, lies not in facts, but in a politically induced failure of imagination.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 9:59:12 AM||   2004-09-04 9:59:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Ignore Aris, he's a typical representative of the pissy, ineffectual European intellectual. However, the Russian approach to Chechnya *has* been indiscriminate. They leveled Grosny with massed artillery, without evacuations, without mercy. It wasn't wrong because it was violent - it was wrong because it was unhelpful. The assholes retreated to the Pankisi and the hinterlands, and the people died.

Look, news like this leaves me sympathetic to genocides like Stalin or Milosovic, but it can't be the answer, if we want to remain ourselves. The clear answer would seem to be an American occupation of the Pankisi. A Russian invasion would cause a regional war; we already have a training cadre in Tbilisi, and we're on very good terms with the Georgian government.

OCSE claims that the Pankisi is empty, but I suspect that the Russians aren't in the mood to take them at their word. The real problem is that we don't really have mountain troops to spare, with the demands of Afghanistan in particular.
Posted by Mitch H.  2004-09-04 10:20:49 AM|| [http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]  2004-09-04 10:20:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Damn, I want to think up a response useful t o this conversation, but I'm to angry right now! I can only pray that the Russians hunt down every one of these "seperatists" and dump them in a pig pen before executing them.
Posted by Charles  2004-09-04 10:27:34 AM||   2004-09-04 10:27:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 I know how many dead there are in Chechnia, not enough. I expect that situation to be rectified in the near future.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-04 10:28:10 AM||   2004-09-04 10:28:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 "The population of Chechnya was less than a million in 1994 and the country is still inhabited at last report."

By about a half million now, I hear. http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/d79a17448cfa4a9e85256989005bba72?OpenDocument

One quarter or so left, the other quarter killed.

I have numerous sources giving a 200.000 civilian casualties figure (or more) (most of them due to bombing and missile campaign) but I'm not at all sure you'll accept them. Since the Russian government itself never acknowledges a single civilian casualty as collateral damage, most sources have to hypothesize based on either uncertain population data or on Chechen sources sympathetic to the separatism.

Ask 10 leftists who the dictator of Chile is. Few will give a name but 9 of them will be sure there is one and that he is an American tool.

Pinochet may no longer be in charge of Chile, but do you deny he was one of the dictators that had been supported by the USA?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 10:36:23 AM||   2004-09-04 10:36:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 AK: Pinochet may no longer be in charge of Chile, but do you deny he was one of the dictators that had been supported by the USA?

Do you also deny that Mao Zedong was one of the dictators supported by Europe, which established trading and diplomatic relations with Communist China decades before the US did? How about Communist Vietnam, which also received Europe's approbation way before the US?
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-04 10:46:34 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-04 10:46:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 When I was in *grade school* Aris! Hell, *your country* was run by a US-supported junta about the same time. You want to bring up Cyprus while you're talking about ancient history? How about the siege of Rhodes while we're at it? Maybe the Latin sack of Constantinople?

The question is what we need to do to keep the Russians from invading Georgia *right now*, and what we need to do to suppress the Chechnyan terrorists.

Russian military ineffectuality is a major problem. They've got the firepower to slaughter civilians and wreck countries, but they don't have the ability to secure their southern provinces, or detect and destroy small assault groups.

Russia needs a small, volunteer, professionalized army. With all the oil money they're raking in, you'd think they'd have the werewithal.
Posted by Mitch H.  2004-09-04 10:48:42 AM|| [http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]  2004-09-04 10:48:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 That report is four years old. How is that a representation of what is going on in Chechnya?

And there are no, as in ZERO sources cited for any numbers that are presented, other than 'estimates'.

The PDFs say they counted 780,000 people but it also said that around 15 percent of the total population (150,000), MAY not have registered. That is not an insignifigant number. That accounts for a huge portion of the 200,000 you claim are dead.

So even if we assume innocently your claims of 200,00 dead are correct, where are the graves?

Aris, try again. This relief web site of yours also gets its numbers from an Islamic relief organization, not exactly a hallmark of humanitarianism. There is a genuine agenda at work and you are helping the agenda, being a part of the problem, and not being part of the solution.
Posted by badanov  2004-09-04 10:55:53 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-04 10:55:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Ignore Aris, he's a typical representative of the pissy, ineffectual European intellectual.

As opposed to you being a typical representative of the pissy, ineffectual American *anti*-intellectual, you mean?

You've said exactly what I said, that the Russian approach was indiscriminate. That the gloves can't be "taken off" because they were never *on* in the first place. But when *I* mentioned that same fact I am a "pissy, ineffectual European intellectual" according to you.

Keep on playing in the kindergarten, Mitch. The only reason you saw fit to insult me for claiming exactly what you claimed, is that you didn't want to be seen *gasp* supporting my post.

Yeah, Mrs. Davis -- the Russians will need to hold hostage some Chechen schools in order to even the scales, quite clearly. Better yet they can turn them to concentration camps. Haha, mass murder is *so* funny.

And badanov, you've already established your contempt for human rights organizations since ofcourse they are always biased against genocidal extermination. No need to repeat it.

I thank you for kavkaz.org -- I didn't know about it, and sites about Caucasus are always useful.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 10:58:10 AM||   2004-09-04 10:58:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 No humor intended Aris. Sometimes that's how probelms get resolved. I suspect this is one of them.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-04 11:04:35 AM||   2004-09-04 11:04:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 When I was in *grade school* Aris! Hell, *your country* was run by a US-supported junta about the same time

Pinochet lasted until the late 1980s if I remember correctly. And yeah, most Greeks haven't forgiven the US for what happened 30 years ago either -- but it wasn't me who brought Pinochet up in this thread, it was other people that talked about Chilean dictators.

And Zhang Fei, "trading and diplomatic relationships" with dictators are dime and dozen today and elsewhen (do you deny that USA has trading and diplomatic relationships *now* with China?).

Actual support, aka propping them up, or helping overthrow the earlier democratic regime, is a different thing.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 11:06:36 AM||   2004-09-04 11:06:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 I brought up Pinochet because he is a favorite club with which lefty propagandists and Hate America bigots attempt to beat us. What did our "support" of Pinochet consist of, Aris? Do you have any idea?
We had to choose between leaving Pinochet in power, after he had gained it, and recognizing his government, or openly intervening to remove him, probably in favor of a second Castro. How would that have played out in the lefty media?

The Left itself supported the previous dictator, Salvador Allende. Though democratically elected (by an electoral minority) Allende had thrown the rule of law and the Chilean Constitution in the garbage in favor of a street revolution by the communist mobs who supported him. This of course, is unknown to communist sympathizers and ignored by their shills.

Most of the time when lefties demonize our "support" for dictators, they mean our recognition of another country's sovereignty when the left would prefer that we disregard it, or our failure to actively support communist revolutionaries who offered the only alternative.

In any case, Pinochet was hardly in the same league as any number of leftist dictators we definitely did not support and most pointedly, not with Saddam Hussein, whom the Euro left defends with fanatical devotion, and who would still be in power if Euro-left positions were taken seriously at all in the US.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 11:45:29 AM||   2004-09-04 11:45:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 "What did our "support" of Pinochet consist of, Aris? "

Here you go Atomic Conspiracy -- CIA acknowledged: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/

"openly intervening to remove him, probably in favor of a second Castro."

Had Allende outlawed multiparty democracy? Oops, no, it was Pinochet that did that!! Nice!
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 12:14:58 PM||   2004-09-04 12:14:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 changing topic is Aris's favorite way of deflecting his guilt
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 12:20:57 PM||   2004-09-04 12:20:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Most of the time when lefties demonize our "support" for dictators, they mean our recognition of another country's sovereignty when the left would prefer that we disregard it, or our failure to actively support communist revolutionaries who offered the only alternative.

You'd like that, wouldn't you? But no it's not mere neutrality towards a regime that most "lefties" I know of are labelling as US support for a dictatorship.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 12:21:31 PM||   2004-09-04 12:21:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Aris uses morality like a sock-puppet, not feeling himself bound by any particular code that would call for REAL consistency: He bitches and moans about us when we supported Saddam, ignoring the fact that the EU Countries and Russia sold him more arms than the United States did, and he bitches and moans when we take him out and leaving Russia and France holding IOUs. He's probably pissed that France will cover the gap by hitting up the EU, which means he'll get hit with the expenses.

*yawns* How many bet that, when the ChiComs let down the hammer on their populace and we have to go to war with them, he'll bitch THEN about why we didn't give a peace and trade policy a chance, and totally ignore that he's just condemned a peace and trade policy we're pursuing with them NOW.

Seems that his policy of making the moral dead-weight of past mistakes invalidate any attempt to correct them applies only to Americans, and never to a Now-I'm-an-EU/Now-I'm-a-Greek citizen.
Posted by Ptah  2004-09-04 12:25:01 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-09-04 12:25:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Unlike asshole bastards such as yourself Frank (remember the whole "cunt" stalking of yours and Crawford?) when the topic changes in threads I participate in it's because the thread has already gone there by others, or because people choose to attack me over non-related topics.

By the way Atomic Conspiracy, here's from CIA itself: http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/chile/#19
"After Allende’s election and before his inauguration, the CIA, under 40 Committee direction, made an effort—in coordination with the Embassy in Santiago—to encourage Chilean businesses to carry out a program of economic disruption."

"In May and June 1975, elements within the CIA recommended establishing a paid relationship with Contreras to obtain intelligence based on his unique position and access to Pinochet. This proposal was overruled, citing the US Government policy on clandestine relations with the head of an intelligence service notorious for human rights abuses. However, given miscommunications in the timing of this exchange, a one-time payment was given to Contreras. "

"Nevertheless, some clandestine contacts of the CIA were involved in human rights abuses. The CIA, at the direction of and with the full concurrence of senior US policymakers, maintained official contacts with various security services. At the same time, the CIA maintained clandestine contacts with selected members of the Chilean military, intelligence and security forces, both to collect intelligence and carry out the covert actions described above. There is no doubt that some CIA contacts were actively engaged in committing and covering up serious human rights abuses."
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 12:32:44 PM||   2004-09-04 12:32:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Aris thinks we're all "pissy, ineffectual American anti-intellectuals," unless we agree with him. And he sure does change the topic when he feels the heat.

"Aris uses morality like a sock-puppet, not feeling himself bound by any particular code that would call for REAL consistency . . ." Quite true. As an avowed "secularist" (which, from what I've read in his particular posts, is a very narrowly-scoped position) he has no higher plane of morality to guide him--so he adhere's to whatever is, at the time, most expedient in an achieving his vision of a world-wide "Secular State." Interestingly, his posts are consistently anti-American, which is funny since America is one of the few countries which would support his right to his fringe views. Too bad he's can't do that for the "non-seculars" he so despises.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-04 12:37:01 PM||   2004-09-04 12:37:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 "He bitches and moans about us when we supported Saddam, ignoring the fact that the EU Countries and Russia sold him more arms than the United States did,"

I don't remember ever bitching about USA supporting Saddam, and I certainly never excluded Russia or the rest of the West from any blame. Is this another one of your lies about me Ptah? You've repeatedly LIED about me, so I think this is just one more case of that -- unless it's a case where you are just suffering from delusions. But feel free to provide the posts where I ever said the US had more of a blame in supporting Saddam than France or Russia did. I doubt you'll ever find one, you LIAR.

As for your wild guesses about what I will do in the future, they are just as insane as you are. When you show yourself a liar about what I've done in the past, don't even try to condemn me about what you think I'll do in the future -- you are listening too much to the echoes of your own head to have ever heard a single word I ever said about *any* issue.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 12:38:39 PM||   2004-09-04 12:38:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Of course American influence on Greek affairs last century was, on balance, negative. Without the US they'd be living happily within a Turkish, Nazi or Communist paradise today, and would never have had to endure those unforgivably hellish years of Greek military dictatorship. Why on earth shouldn't Greeks regard America with righteous anger? It's not as though they owe Americans anything.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-09-04 12:40:18 PM||   2004-09-04 12:40:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 And as a sidenote Ptah, that I'm both a citizen of both EU and Greece is a statement of fact, not a statement of either opinion, belief or political inclinations. My ID card states Greek citizenship, by treaty that means I'm also a EU citizen as seen by the passport I carry. But I'm not surprised you see a problem with that -- you probably don't understand how Bush can be both Texan and American either.

Aris thinks we're all "pissy, ineffectual American anti-intellectuals," unless we agree with him.

Not at all. I think that only people that whine about "pissy ineffectual European intellectuals" are "pissy ineffectual American anti-intellectuals".

As an avowed "secularist" (which, from what I've read in his particular posts, is a very narrowly-scoped position) he has no higher plane of morality to guide him

Not at all. I'm a moral absolutist, far more so than most Christians I've ever seen, most of whom seem to think that "right" is whatever will get them into heaven and "wrong" is whatever will get them into hell.

And my guiding principles can be summarized in one sentence -- right is whatever promotes the well-being of sentient life.

"Interestingly, his posts are consistently anti-American,

No, my posts are consistently pro-human. People who think that only American or only Christian lives matter, or people who are willing to support Latin American dictatorships, or people who are willing to support torturing innocents, are ofcourse sure to find error with them.

That despite the fact that I've repeatedly mentioned how USA has been a generally positive factor in world affairs. The only reason you call me anti-American is that I also repeatedly failed to grant your nation absolute sainthood or to forget its past crimes.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 12:50:19 PM||   2004-09-04 12:50:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Oh, by the way - congrats on getting through the Olympics without any major incidents. I didn't think the Greeks would pull it off. I was wrong.
Posted by Mitch H.  2004-09-04 12:52:46 PM|| [http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]  2004-09-04 12:52:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Bulldog> And without the French, America may never have gone independent.

But either way I never called the Anti-americanism of most Greeks "righteous". Had it been "righteous" for reasons of junta-support, that anger would have also been directed to the Greek Orthodox establishment that likewise supported the junta -- had it been righteous for reasons of imperialism or support of dictatorships, it would have also been directed to Serb and other fellow Orthodox fascists.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 12:58:35 PM||   2004-09-04 12:58:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 I hate to unsettle a running battle, Aris, but this thread is about Russia, not Chile. I don't care who started it.
Posted by badanov  2004-09-04 1:13:56 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-04 1:13:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Seriously Aris, you really have problem of grabbing the wheel and driving the debate into the ditch. We are talking about Russia. If you want to discuss the merits of ineffectual Europeans (pissy or not), I suggest you start another thread.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-09-04 1:25:08 PM||   2004-09-04 1:25:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Your quotes are incomplete and contextually misleading, Aris, as we might expect.

"In January 1974 CIA issued a directive to all CIA staff to collect clandestine information on torture in Chile; this message directed CIA staff to work through all available agents and channels of influence to induce the Chilean Government to modify repressive measures, particularly to eliminate torture. CIA actively used its contacts, especially with members of services notorious for human rights abuses, to emphasize that human rights abuses were detrimental to the government’s credibility within their own country, damaging to their international reputation, and unacceptable to the US Government. In some cases, such contacts enabled the CIA to obtain intelligence on human rights abuses that would not have otherwise been available." (same link as yours)


The last sentence refers in particular to "Operation Condor" a multinational cooperative effort by several South American dictatorships to suppress dissent. The CIA, according to this report, got most of its information about this from the same Manuel Contreras mentioned in your second quote. It is obvious from context that Contreras was a spy, spying on the Pinochet regime for the CIA, and that his involvement in human rights abuses was in spite of, rather because of, his relationship with the CIA:
"From the start, the CIA made it clear to Contreras was that it would not support any of his activities or activities of his service which might be construed as “internal political repression.” In its contacts with Contreras, the CIA urged him to adhere to a 17 January 1974 circular, issued by the Chilean Ministry of Defense, spelling out guidelines for handling prisoners in a manner consistent with the 1949 Geneva Convention."

"The relationship, while correct, was not cordial and smooth, particularly as evidence of Contreras’ role in human rights abuses emerged. In December 1974, the CIA concluded that Contreras was not going to improve his human rights performance. However, Contreras’ assistance in the first quarter of 1975 in gaining the release of some PDC members who had been arrested and mistreated by another Chilean security service offered small hope that he would use his influence to end abuses. In retrospect, however, Contreras’ role in this effort probably reflected interservice rivalry and Contreras’ personal efforts to control the entire Chilean intelligence apparatus."


On the whole, the report strongly refutes allegations of US participation in, control over, or even approval of, serious human rights abuses.

Contreras was not a nice man. So what? Spies are not usually nice people. This very case, incidentally, was a significant factor in the institution of stringent vetting standards for CIA contacts, spies that is, that have made it so difficult for us to recruit such spies in recent years. How do you recruit a source inside a terrorist gang, for example, if the source is not, himself, a terrorist?
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 1:26:30 PM||   2004-09-04 1:26:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 On another note ya'll did put on a nice show last month during the Olympics.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-09-04 1:26:33 PM||   2004-09-04 1:26:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Speaking of Russia, I will cheerfully admit that we supported their worst dictator, Joseph Stalin, to the tune of 14 billion dollars during the Second World War, and that much of this consisted of actual weapons and other bad stuff.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 1:31:29 PM||   2004-09-04 1:31:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Atomic Conspiracy> You supported Stalin in the war against Hitler, you didn't support his dictatorship itself, you didn't intentionally create the conditions that would cause him to come into power.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 1:42:59 PM||   2004-09-04 1:42:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Putin, I think, does have to recognize that he is part of a global effort if he is to get a grip on this. The nuclear deals with Iran are an important stumbling block, but not the only one. There is also the lingering bitterness in Russia over the NATO attack on Serbia in 1999. This is actually harder to deal with since it is not Putin's attitude that counts, but that of the Russian people.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 1:44:45 PM||   2004-09-04 1:44:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Nevertheless, our aid did benefit Stalin's dictatorship and prevent its overthrow, because the alternative was far worse.
It was a strategic move in a war against totalitarianism, as was our involvment in Chile.
Closer to home (yours I mean), the US also supported another communist dictator, Tito, during the 1950s and it is very likely that we did create the conditions for his accession to power. For the very same reasons.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 1:53:12 PM||   2004-09-04 1:53:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 From what I know Allende wasn't totalitarian or atleast haven't *proven* himself such at all -- and you nonetheless intentionally helped cause his overthrow. The CIA link I gave you above says how much USA was involved in attempting his overthrow (no care about sovereignty then) -- but once the Pinochet dictatorship came along everything was suddenly all about Chilean "sovereignty". What bull.

The Allende democracy was worse than the Pinochet dictatorship? Why?

USA may have generally supported democracy in Europe (with some notable exceptions) but in Latin America it was totalitarianism that the USA was defending.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 2:14:54 PM||   2004-09-04 2:14:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Good post AC. Aris, sometimes yes, we have to choose between two evils. The idea being knock off the greater first, then work on the second. Why do you have a problem with that shit-head?
Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-09-04 2:32:54 PM||   2004-09-04 2:32:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 An actual majority of Chileans had voted against Allende and clearly disapproved of his policies of confiscation and mob rule.
Criticizing us for not overthrowing Pinochet is bull. Why would we do the communists' work for them? That is typical of lefty activists, though, all action by every government must serve their objectives or it is somehow illegal, immoral or otherwise illegitimate.
Pinochet's state was a long way from "totalitarian", in stark contrast to the Cuban-style worker's paradise Allende obviously intended to establish once he finished dismantling the rule of law. Pinochet set up a free economy; unlike communists, he did not demand that all forms of expression support state goals, he did not regiment the lives of the people, and he did not foment revolution in neighboring countries.
"but in Latin America it was totalitarianism that the USA was defending."
Fidel Castro has the only totalitarian state in Latin America. This did not happen by accident.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 2:32:56 PM||   2004-09-04 2:32:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Aris is correct in noting that our government gave Pinochet and his generals active support in their revolution against Allende. That's pretty well documented.

We did it because we didn't like what we were seeing -- Allende was in the process of killing the democratic process in Chile so as to substitute a dictatorship of the proletariat. There was increasing lawlessness, moves by the local communists to take over, and subversion and murder of the opposition, all approved by Allende. The Left today likes to make Allende look like a hapless saint, kind of a bumbling do-gooder, when the truth is, he knew exacly what he was doing and on what horse he was riding.

So, Aris, we took the lesser of two evils. The good thing about Pinochet was that he listened to enlightened economists (e.g., Milton Friedman) and worked to build a thriving Chilean economy. That in turn led to a restoration of democracy. The bad thing about Pinochet was that he had no qualms about engaging in some murder and torture, and we looked the other way.

That's international power politics for you.
Posted by Steve White  2004-09-04 2:33:17 PM||   2004-09-04 2:33:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 In fact Aris, that last statement shows you to be a vicious totalitarian liar on the same level as Joseph Goebbels. I have responded to your slander as politely as possible, but I am finished now. Take your communist inspired propaganda and murder-inciting Castro bullshit and shove it.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 2:35:05 PM||   2004-09-04 2:35:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 "An actual majority of Chileans had voted against Allende"

You, supporter of Bush, are gonna use *that* argument? Allende had the majority of the votes. He didn't have the *absolute* majority, meaning that if you grouped together the second and the third party then *together* they'd get more votes than the first party. He was nonetheless democratically elected according to the constitution of Chile. The legality is not in dispute.

Atomic Conspiracy, your failure to acknowledge the FACT that during the Cold War the USA did indeed more often supported fascism in Latin America than democracy, also shows you for the revisionist fascist that you are.

Steve, I'd like references for those murder by Allende that you mentioned also.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 3:21:56 PM||   2004-09-04 3:21:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Unlike asshole bastards such as yourself Frank (remember the whole "cunt" stalking of yours and Crawford?) when the topic changes in threads I participate in it's because the thread has already gone there by others, or because people choose to attack me over non-related topics

Aris, from the protection provided by America and Nato over the last century, snipes at the heels of Amerikkka like the chihuahua he is ...you divert threads to divert attention from the fact Greece hasn't done anything to protect interests not their own in how long? Your choosing of Pinochet etc. in a post on Ossetia is proof. You love dictatorships of the left, and the EU will be a fitting place for your demise as a cuntry (oooooohhhh!). In the words of Sgt. Hulka: Lighten up, Francis!
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 3:30:11 PM||   2004-09-04 3:30:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Aris, I consider myself myself pretty liberal on most issues. But you, my non-friend, are emberrasing the fuck out of the rest of us. get your head out of your ass and go read some history books for gods sakes. And no, I'm not talking about Zeus.
Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-09-04 3:41:46 PM||   2004-09-04 3:41:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 When communists, I'm sorry, comments are so far off topic as to be a platform for Aris Katsaris forums TM, I recommend that he, and Zen, not only be deleted, but banned as well.

Kripsaris, you are one sanctimonious, pea brained tape recorder; we have all heard this, time and time again, from our own Marxist, narcissistic, overpaid, Hollyweird, Leftist citizenry.

So tell me, you filthy aparatchek, why is Marxism, (oh sorry, its now only permitted to refer to it as "transprogressive unnaturalism" now) , in decline in this hemisphere, and on the march in your hemisphere ? Hmmm?

Give my regards to the other Bot. Don't forget to get some fresh batteries, you miserable machine.

P.S. I'd watch my back if I were you, not mention your cake hole, and your cornhole: Paranoia has been known to scientifically influence reality negatively on those with a tragic devotion to it.

So long Sucker(s)!
Posted by Annie War 2004-09-04 3:48:58 PM||   2004-09-04 3:48:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Fuck you, Frank. If your disregard for truth wasn't such, you would have known that it wasn't me who chose to mention Chile's dictator.

Lil Dhimmi, if you support Pinochet or the dictators of Brazil or the dictators of Nicaragua or *any* of the dictators of Cuba (either left-wing or right-wing), then I'm not "one of you". So you can feel relief at no longer needing to feel embarrassed of me. I quite easily disassosiate myself from those supporters of dictators that overthrew *democracies* -- unlike how some people want to present it.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 3:53:23 PM||   2004-09-04 3:53:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 P.S. I'd watch my back if I were you, not mention your cake hole, and your cornhole

Why? Are you drooling over them? I don't give a rats ass what you say about Aris, but leave Zen out of this. Zen has made more than his fair contribution here, without having to hear the dog shit coming out of your mouth.
Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-09-04 3:55:25 PM||   2004-09-04 3:55:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Hmmm. Maybe I just have to get to know you better Aris.
Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-09-04 3:57:57 PM||   2004-09-04 3:57:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 ty very much Aris
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 3:59:20 PM||   2004-09-04 3:59:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 So tell me, you filthy aparatchek, why is Marxism, (oh sorry, its now only permitted to refer to it as "transprogressive unnaturalism" now), in decline in this hemisphere, and on the march in your hemisphere? Hmmm?

You've got it backwards. It's in decline in *this* hemisphere (all of East Europe abandoned it), and on the march in yours (Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil possibly -- with extremely left-wing Castro-sympathizers in command).

As for why: Carmic justice. East Europe was forced to try communist totalitarianism and didn't like it and has now rejected it. Latin America was forced to try right-wing fascism and didn't like it much either, and so now the whole of Latin America has inevitably gone antiAmerican: which benefits left-wing fascisms a great deal. Not having the Soviet Union anymore is an obstacle to full-out dictatorships ofcourse.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 3:59:55 PM||   2004-09-04 3:59:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 here's the Aris thread exit ramp:

America doesn't exactly have the high ground in accusations of appeasing and sucking up to dictators and terrorists, you know. Not in the past, and not in the modern day either.

Talking about Wahabbism connections, your ally the USA-sucked-up and USA-appeased dictator of Saudi Arabia has done his own share of promotimg.

I'm afraid that using excuses of EU appeasement, can only plausibly work with Palestinian-related massacres.


moral equivalence in a terrorist thread? I let the jury decide
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 4:02:11 PM||   2004-09-04 4:02:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Carmic justice. East Europe was forced to try communist totalitarianism and didn't like it and has now rejected it. Latin America was forced to try right-wing fascism and didn't like it much either, and so now the whole of Latin America has inevitably gone antiAmerican: which benefits left-wing fascisms a great deal.

Ahhh our greek now has the insight of all of South America. Incorrectly. Again
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 4:04:19 PM||   2004-09-04 4:04:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 The European Union has demanded an explanation from Russia on how the “tragedy” in Beslan could have happened

From the same EU that claims Aris as a member. What intellectuals!
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 4:07:01 PM||   2004-09-04 4:07:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Ahhh our greek now has the insight of all of South America. Incorrectly.

I hear Panama likes you. Ofcourse it's one of the extremely few places in the Latin America where the last US intervention was in favour of democracy.

Other than that I've heard it again and again, including in Rantburg but elsewhere as well -- that Latin American hostility for the US is second only to that of the Arabs.

And Frank, that post of mine was in direct response to Barbara ofcourse. As for what the "EU" has demanded, that was the rotating Dutch presidency, not one of the EU's permanent instruments, if that makes any difference to you.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 4:14:55 PM||   2004-09-04 4:14:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Well, given that the search function of Rantburg doesn't encompass comments, and given the propensity of Aris to drive topics off topic, I suppose he'd be safe in his accusation that I'm lying about him, since nothing he says is worth me keeping an independent database to keep track of when, where, and what he said. "Striving after wind" is how the Scriptures would describe THAT value-free project.

Then again, he MAY be right: He sounds so much like a troll, and we DID have a lot of trolls about at that time, that I may have conflated his continual opportunistic sniping at Bush's diplomatic attempts to "Legitimize" the War with their ravings. They all DO tend to sound alike, don't they?

My reference to now-Greek/Now EU stems from times when he plays the greek patriot injured by America when it was advantageous to him, only to transform to the Model EU citizen totally untouchable by the follibles of his natal country if it meant losing face or an argument. It's a "play in the small" of the way the member nations of the EU "play in the large".

The day that Greece in the EU can be compared to Texas in the United States will be the day the EU will have a REAL constitution that doesn't need to kill a tree to print, in which Greece gives up its UN Seat to a single EU seat, and France turns its Security Council seat over to an EU rep. Even then, the question of whether Greeks will feel about 3/11 happening in Madrid in the same way Texans (And Georgians) felt when 9/11 befell New Yorkers, much less ACT like them, remains to be seen. Heck, by then, the EU Army just might be able to stand up to the Texas Rangers, National Guard, and General Militia longer than 48 hours.

My conjecture on how Aris would jump in the event of a Sino-American war was a poffered bet that had nothing at all to do with his beliefs on how China should be handled, but was based on observations of his knee-jerk prejudices combined with the unique attitude apparently held by Progressive Europeans that they don't have any, leading to the reasonably safe bet that by the time things DO go boom over there (after 2014, I hazard), he wouldn't have shaken any of them.
Posted by Ptah  2004-09-04 5:07:42 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-09-04 5:07:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Darn. I forgot to add "...after they stop laughing." after "48 hours"

Preview is my friend...
Posted by Ptah  2004-09-04 5:10:08 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-09-04 5:10:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Here is the 'unofficial' Aris thread exit ramp...

Ready?

*Ahem*

How 'bout them Sooners?
Posted by badanov  2004-09-04 5:16:20 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-04 5:16:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 channeling Aris: obviously the OK sooners displaced Indians who were living in environmental harmony with a land they....

Channeling Frank: they're running up the middle on a soft UCLA front and LB corps...
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 5:21:01 PM||   2004-09-04 5:21:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Mr Aris, I'm not impressed with the pieties you display as to the minutia of "who got done wrong" and I'm not fooled by your attempts to use it as cover for what amounts to a complete void, when it comes to the character you lack in the fight for justice: Allende had to go, forcefully, as did Castro, (but see what half measures have availed the United States (This Hemisphere) vis a vis our Cuban brothers?), ditto LuLu, Chavez.
When Marxists come to power, elections start disappearing, or the fix is in, as in Venusuela's recall of Chavez. Thats what Chile was about. That's what Hungary 1956 was about. And so on.

The origins of your sickness is akin to that of the muslim extremeist: you rack up a list of the sins of others; but you can't see through the beam in your own eye. Do you literally have to go to (an) America(n blog) in order to proseletize? Or is proseletizing still ok in Eurabia as long as it praises the name of the sacred EU?

And don't get me started on France where it is illegal.

P.S. Ditto Florida 2000. Where the only votes not counted were those of American Military Service Personnel: those at sea or at foreign posts or who were otherwise stationed in Florida; invalidated by one of your leftist hack judges. This pivotal election, decided by 537 Islamic voters, who, ironically, as it turned out, voted for Algore precisely and only because his running mate is a Jew. And yet, to this very day, we still listen as you and your kind slander our president, claiming he "stole" an election. When, since the inception of this nation, the Democrat Party has cheated in elections since Aaron Burr, Tammany Hall, The St Louis machine, Richard Dalys Chicago, Lyndon Johnsons Johnson County, Algore et al, you still drone on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country, and how forming pyramids is frightening the children, and Taray Molinas, Taray Molinas, Tax cuts for the Rich, Tax Cuts for the Rich, Bush carved, people starved, Selected not elected.? You make me sick, we've no time for this petty score keeping.

If you think we are not, or shouldn't be angry at the organized crime (with massive PR) that is the Left (Marxism) in this world, then you've got another goddamn thing coming.

Your days of electing your leaders is numbered, if not gone already. We saved your asses in two world wars, and you still don't get it. Your dark continent fights world wars, world wars, not for democracy and individual human rights, but to destroy them. (I recognize and express my gratitude to The Greek Nation that fought Na So Germany so valiantly, but afterwards....) You fought these wars to decide only what kind of socialism, and in whose name it would be. And afterwards, when you were free and chose it, we protected you from the Soviet Union.

If you set the bar so high, and expect to see perfection in Mankind, and not in God, then there is where your problem originates.

Germany concluded after they lost their National Socialist War, that it is wrong to fight. And now that Europe's nations have no armies (protected by the U.S. and NATO), You have decided that it must be wrong to actually stand ready and be prepared to fight evil.

No, we will not protect your mainland this time, but we will destroy the cancer that threatens to invade, that has seeped into your continent

No thanks is necessary; didn't expect it anyway
Posted by Annie War  2004-09-04 5:52:43 PM||   2004-09-04 5:52:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 now THAT'S a rant LOL
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 5:56:18 PM||   2004-09-04 5:56:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Ptah, if I'm not significant enough to remember what I actually said, then I beg you to let me be *in*significant enough to not *mis*remember what I've actually said either.

But right now it seems I'm occupying the worst of both worlds for you -- I'm important enough to you to attack me for what you think I've said in the past, but I'm not important enough to be attacked for what I've *actually* said myself rather than the stuff that you think I've said.

In short: Please don't ever again claim I've said something, unless you can provide a link. Because you've never *ever* gotten it right.

Annie> "When Marxists come to power, elections start disappearing, or the fix is in, as in Venusuela's recall of Chavez." Rrright. And so your solution against the mere *possibility* of future lack of elections is to install dictatorships that will make said future lack of elections a complete certainty.

"Thats what Chile was about. That's what Hungary 1956 was about"

Indeed -- in both cases a certain superpower crushed a certain democracy. You can add Czechoslovakia (USSR) and Brazil (USA) to that list.

"And yet, to this very day, we still listen as you and your kind slander our president, claiming he "stole" an election."

Yeah, well I'm quite sure that I've never said Bush stole the election either. So here's more slander against me on your part.

"you still drone on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country, "

Um, who is Mr. Smith? Dude, I don't even know what you are talking about. You've just gone about as wacko as ex-lib did yesterday about gay right.

"If you set the bar so high, and expect to see perfection in Mankind, and not in God, then there is where your problem originates."

Um, what? Who ever expected to see perfection in Mankind?

"And now that Europe's nations have no armies (protected by the U.S. and NATO), You have decided that it must be wrong to actually stand ready and be prepared to fight evil."

Yeah, that's why I'll have to go myself to the army next year, because Europe's nations have no armies. Another brilliant guess on your part.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 6:25:44 PM||   2004-09-04 6:25:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 BTW, since at least 10 of the Chechen "rebel separatist" were in fact Saudi, what are the chances that Russia unilaterally, or with a mutilateral combination, vivisections Saudi Arabia in a similar way these "militant insurgient freedom fighters" did to women, children, men and babies in Beslan? Since Russia might be inclined to decide the involvment of Saudi constitutes an act of war?

Also, when three or more participants in an election fails to win a majority in an election, a run-off election is called for. This flaw in American Federal elections resulted in Bill Clintons only receiving a plurality, not a majority in two elections. A run-off election might have prevented this lack of majority mandate, that resulted in Billy Dale, Waco, FBI files, Elian, etc.

As for Allende, a majority did not elect him president. So a run-off was called for.
Posted by an dalusian dog 2004-09-04 6:29:28 PM||   2004-09-04 6:29:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 well Aris, I congratulate you on your committment (without sarcasm) and hope reality intrudes (w/ Sarcasm).
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-04 6:31:24 PM||   2004-09-04 6:31:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 I wish this super power had come to the aid of Hungary in 1956; after all, they were ruthlessly crushed only for their right to hold elections

Soviet Union signed the warsaw pact with garauntees that nations of eastern Europe were free to hold elections.

If the U.S. had come to the Aid of Hungary in 1956, the useful idiots of the western left would have screamed !Bloody Murder!that it was in fact we who were violating the Warsaw Pact Borders. They didn't want to see an end to the Soviet Union . How Sad ...How very, very Sad...*Sniff* But I certainly wish that we had. Then maybe no Czechloslovakia 1968,

but so much for the word of Communists. North Vietnam signed a treaty in 1973, revoked it in 1975 when they invaded South Vietnam; When a commie gives his word, its only to buy time, and wait for the weakness to set in. The Democrat controlled American Congress stood by and voted down any assistance and did nothing to enforce the by then, worthless document signed by the North Vietnamese communists. And the march of two communist regimes, in Cambodia, and South Vietnam lead to another 3 or 4 million more dead. By the most common form of Comunist evil execution: worked and starved to death.

that brings the total to somewhere around 150-200 million or so, killed in the name of Atheistic regimes.

No greater killer in non-muslim civilization than Atheistic regimes. And no greater killer of Muslims than Islam itself.
Posted by Annie War 2004-09-04 7:03:09 PM||   2004-09-04 7:03:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Annie War Partially hit the nail on the head regarding Aris' attitude toward humanity. He proclaims his arguments are "pro-human", and he IS right that he does not expect to see perfection in Mankind, but it sure seems to me that the demand for perfection and flawless execution in foreign affairs and military execution is being placed on SOME of mankind: I.e. America and her allies. Seems to be the tenor of most of the objectionable comments, in one form or another. He IS telling the truth, if one takes his (implied) denial as a statement that he expects it from ALL of mankind.

I AM, however, kicking myself in not preserving the link to his comment that he was leaving Rantburg and never coming back. However, it seems the "still small voice" I heard telling me to not delete his poison pen letter of May 24, was spot on as usual, since it helped me locate the relevant post with the only comment he made worth remembering (#14).
Posted by Ptah  2004-09-04 7:14:20 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-09-04 7:14:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 I could have given that link to you if you'd asked. This has been mentioned before: I changed my mind and came back: Oh, the horror of it.

By "pen letter" you mean e-mail I assume? First time I heard it referred as such.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 8:26:42 PM||   2004-09-04 8:26:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Equivalency: Brazil=Communist Hungary
What a joke.
Ari, my point in citing Allende's lack of a majority was not to dispute the legality of his election, but to emphasize that his party's extra-legal "street revolution" afterward was not in any sense a popular or democratic action as he and his foreign apologists claimed. This, not his election, was the cause of the coup.
It was Steve, not I, who linked Allende directly to murder. I don't know about this except that the "Plan Z" documents attributed to him were determined to be a hoax. There were many deaths during the chaos he instigated before the coup and he was reasonably culpable for these, however.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-09-04 8:34:34 PM||   2004-09-04 8:34:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 I hope you do know I was talking about the dictatorship of Brazil that overthrew Goulart, not Brazil in general.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-09-04 9:13:44 PM||   2004-09-04 9:13:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Uhmm...

How 'bout them 'pokes?
Posted by badanov  2004-09-04 9:29:37 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-04 9:29:37 PM|| Front Page Top

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