Ukraine's president says Russian navy ships that were deployed to the Georgian coast will need authorization to return to the base Russia leases from Ukraine.
President Viktor Yushchenko's decree Wednesday requires Russia's Black Sea Fleet to submit a request to return to its base in the Crimea 10 working days before its planned return. The Russian navy squadron was deployed to Georgia's coast as part of Russia's onslaught on Georgia beginning last week.
Yushchenko's announcement is certain to further strain ties between the Kremlin and pro-Western Ukrainian government.
#3
To be clear to take back Crimea they'd have to go through Ukraine and probably have to hold a corridor. Might as well just take over hte place and set up a puppet government if you're gonna do that. I think half the Ukraine is pro-Russia anyway.
NOUAKCHOTT, Mauritania (AP) - The military junta that overthrew Mauritania's government last week adopted a law Tuesday transferring the power of the presidency to the head of the junta.
That's generally what happens after a successful coup ...
Yep, you get presidential powers, a parking pass, a shiny new sprocket and a sash with the knife holes neatly repaired and most of the bloodstains washed out.
The 11-article law announced in a communique confers the rights of the highest office in the country in northwest Africa to the army general who led the Aug. 6 coup. The statement also claimed the coup was brought on by the deteriorating condition of daily life in Mauritania, the president's stonewalling of various government institutions and his firing of the chiefs of the armed forces.
The coup prompted the U.S. to cut off more than $20 million in aid. France also has frozen aid to Mauritania, and the European Union has threatened to cut off aid. The African Union suspended Mauritania from the 53-nation body because of the military takeover. The country borders Senegal, Mali, Algeria and Western Sahara.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) - Party officials close to Zimbabwe's power-sharing talks say President Robert Mugabe has agreed to a power-sharing plan with a breakaway opposition faction. They say Arthur Mutambara, who heads a splinter group of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change, has agreed to a power-sharing accord with Zimbabwe's president. No further details are available.
The officials from the ruling party and the main opposition movement led by Morgan Tsvangirai spoke on condition of anonymity because mediator Thabo Mbeki has insisted on confidentiality. Mutambara himself would not comment before South African President Mbeki makes a statement.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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#2
"Can I get that in small notes? Millions will be fine."
Posted by: Grenter, Protector of the Geats ||
08/13/2008 9:32 Comments ||
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#3
Pfft. Anyone who takes *currency* from Mugabe will get what they deserve. Gold, man. Gold or diamonds, and frankly, diamonds are probably harder to convert, so just gold.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/13/2008 13:02 Comments ||
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#4
think i'd be a bit wary of making any aircraft trips without Bob being along. and perhaps that ACME Remote Car Starter Thingie would be a good idea also........
#6
One BBC reporter says Russian troops are in Gromi; another BBC reporter - at Gromi City Hall (behind the Stalin statue) sees nothing of the sort. Maybe they are both right.
The first of C-17 planes carrying humanitarian supplies has arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said Wednesday. Another is scheduled to arrive tomorrow with additional supplies.
Also Wednesday, President Bush said he is skeptical that Moscow is honoring a cease-fire in neighboring Georgia, demanding that Russia end all military activities in the former Soviet republic and withdraw all its forces.
Bush, who pushed back his upcoming vacation to monitor the situation in Georgia, said Russia must ensure that "all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, roads and airports," remain open to let deliveries and civilians through.
#4
Wonder if there are any trade pubs reporting industry orders of man-portable weapons? Orders probably running high from the GWOT, but I expect there may be a spike in orders due to reduced inventories this week.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon said on Wednesday it did not plan to take control of Georgian airports or ports as part of an aid mission, apparently contradicting a statement by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.
"We are not looking to, nor do we need to, take control of any air or sea ports to conduct this mission," Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said.
In a television address, Saakashvili said an announcement by President George W. Bush of U.S. aid for victims of Georgia's conflict with Russia meant ports and airports would be taken under the control of the U.S. defense ministry.
"That is not our understanding of the situation," Morrell said. "What we are focused on at this point is getting humanitarian relief to the people who need it in Georgia."
A C-17 plane with humanitarian supplies has arrived in Georgia, and it will be followed in coming days by more U.S. military aircraft and naval forces delivering humanitarian and medical aid, the White House said after Bush's announcement.
"The role of the U.S. military is strictly to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian assistance to the victims of this conflict," Morrell said.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 14:36 ||
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President George W. Bush's pledge to send aid to Georgia means that the U.S. military will take control of the ex-Soviet state's ports and airports, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said on Wednesday.
"You have heard the statement by the U.S. president that the United States is starting a military-humanitarian operation in Georgia," Saakashvili said in a television address. "It means that Georgian ports and airports will be taken under the control of the U.S. defense ministry in order to conduct humanitarian and other missions. This is a very important statement for easing tension."
#1
HMMMMM! US troops on the ground in Georgia. Nothing from Russia on this? They must be grinding their teeth. This is a big reversal for Putin. I bet he didn't believe we would do that.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
08/13/2008 14:21 Comments ||
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#2
If I was Putin, my next move would be a fleet visit to Cuba and Venezuela. It would have to big enough to make the news.
He should make sure that he brings enough ships for towing duty, since these ships were built in the Soviet Union.
#5
Wow, if true my plan for putting a striker brigade and some patriots in Georgia as peace keepers will prove to be true. Bush seems to be interested in keeping Russia from putting the screws on Europe's energy.
#6
Speaking to the BBC, Russia's First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said attacks by Russian forces on Georgian military targets outside the South Ossetia region were both legal and necessary.
He said Russia had to destroy Georgian artillery systems and bomb military airports in order to protect its peacekeepers in South Ossetia, a number of whom had already been killed by Georgian forces.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 14:31 Comments ||
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#7
Putin should just declare his own Monroe Doctrine.
#8
"We are not looking to, nor do we need to, take control of any air or sea ports to conduct this mission," Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said.
"The role of the U.S. military is strictly to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian assistance to the victims of this conflict," Morrell said.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 14:41 Comments ||
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#9
Do we get to have one of our own? I think we're coming up on the 60th anniversary or so of its death in a couple years.
Maybe we could arrange a trade. We get Cuba and Venezuela, they get Georgia, any Cubans and Venezuelans that still believe in Tsarist-Marxism can go live in Georgia, and the Georgians who want to be free can come live in Cuba. Everyone will have a nice neat tidy sphere of influence without anyone being shot or having to live with something they don't.
#10
If Venezuela wants to buy rusty out of spec russian arms then that is their business. Last I heard, the quality was a deal breaker, and they couldn't even make the numbers on the units.
#13
abominable, the sad thing is from a weather and location point of view living in Cuba would be far superior but I bet Georgians are tied to the dirt under their feet as most people are so they wouldn't consider even an advantageous swap.
TBILISI- Latvian Prime Minister Ivars Godmanis alongside presidents of Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, and Lithuania arrived in Georgia and took part in the mass rally in Tbilisi, to show solidarity with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili in Georgia's conflict with Russia.
"You have the right to freedom and independence. We are here to demonstrate our solidarity ... freedom is worth fighting for," said Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko on Georgian television.
Yushchenko appeared on stage with Poland's President Lech Kaczynski and his colleagues from Estonia, Toomas Hendrik Ilves, and Lithuania, Valdas Adamkus, as well as Latvia's Prime Minister Godmanis, addressing thousands of people who gathered for the rally.
Georgian President Saakashvili was first to address the rally. "This is the new Europe. Georgia is a European country which will defend its integrity," he said.
He thanked the Lithuanian president for everything Lithuania has done for Georgia and for the mission of Lithuanian Foreign Minister Petras Vaitekunas. ""I would like to thank you, President Adamkus, for your minister and for his coming here during the difficult times and the actions that he took," said Saakashvili, adding that the Lithuanian diplomacy chief stood with the Georgian nation during its most difficult time.
Vaitekunas and representatives of other European countries went to Georgia at weekend to discuss negotiations about the peace plan.
Godmanis, Yushchenko, Kaczynski, Ilves and Adamkus joined hands and held them aloft to cheers from the crowd of tens of thousands which was awash with the Georgian national colours of red and white as well as flags of the US, the European Union (EU), France, Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine.
"This country [Russia] seeks to restore its dominance, but the time of dominance is over," Polish President Kaczynski told the crowd, which chanted "Poland, Poland!" as he took the microphone.
"You are not alone, we are standing with you ... Let's stand together united and victory will be on our side," said Lithuania's Adamkus. Note: "Our Side". Whoa.
Estonia's Ilves said: "Everyone who believes in freedom and democracy is saying today 'I am Georgian'. We are here to demonstrate our solidarity." He said "I am Georgian" in Georgian. John McCain probably approves that message :)
Godmanis said in an interview with Latvian commercial television LNT on Tuesday morning that nobody is thinking of possible threat to the state leaders in Georgia, and the duties have to be fulfilled despite that.
#2
I've always wondered if it wouldn't be better to create a Nato-like organization comprised of ex-Warsaw nations. This would mean the Germans (whom the Ruskies have issues with) so hopefully the Russians would feel less threatened.
Then if the group purchased a lot of Russian equipment (tanks, APCs, not planes) they would be seen as somewhat of a customer for the Russians which might increase their pull and limit Russian fears and troublemaking.
TBILISI, Georgia - Georgia's deputy defense minister says Russian troops are apparently pulling out of two towns.
Bato Kuteliya said Wednesday the troops had left the western town of Zugdidi near the breakaway province of Abkhazia and are expected to leave the city of Gori shortly. Gori is near South Ossetia, Georgia's other separatist province.
The cease-fire agreed to by the Georgian and Russian presidents calls for both sides to retreat to their original positions.
#1
Their trash, assorted Chechens, Cossacks and Ossetians that trail the Russian troops, have been looting, burning houses and robbing people at gunpoint. They will have ethnically cleansed the two enclaves and part of the buffer zone of all Georgians soon.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 14:52 Comments ||
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#2
John Frum, regarding your comment on Chechens, Cossacks and Ossetians. Are you suggesting that the Russians allowed them within their logistics tail? Or are you suggesting the Georgians somehow allowed them into the combat zone? Or are you saying they are trash within the Russian army?
#7
Reports, hell. They've been parading in their ski masks and mufti for the international press. Claiming to be "Cossacks". Fucking brigands, is what I calls 'em.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/13/2008 20:43 Comments ||
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President Bush has directed the U.S. military to lead a humanitarian mission to Georgia where tens of thousands have been forced out of their homes following a Russian invasion last week that has been described by Georgia's president as an "ethnic cleansing."
Bush said a U.S. C-17 aircraft with humanitarian supplies is already on its way and U.S. aircraft and Naval forces will deliver humanitarian and medical supplies to the country in the coming days.
"The mission will be vigorous and ongoing," Bush said from the White House Rose Garden with Defense Secretary Bob Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice by his side.
"We expect Russia to honor its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian assistance. We expect Russia to insure that all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, airports, roads and airspace, remain open for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and for civilian transit," Bush said.
Bush said he is also sending Rice to Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, to "personally convey America's unwavering support for the government of Georgia." Rice will travel beforehand to France to meet with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
d"The United States stands with the democratic government of Georgia and insists that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia be respected," Bush said. "The United States strongly supports France's efforts as president of the European Union to broker an agreement to end this conflict."
The president spoke after a busy morning of briefings and a phone conversation with Sarkozy and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, a close ally of the United States.
The administration also spent Wednesday morning trying to document whether Russia is violating the cease-fire it agreed to institute with the former Soviet Republic. FOX News confirmed that Russian tanks entered the city of Gori, just 40 miles from Tbilisi, on Wednesday, after they were supposed to have withdrawn.
"We expect Russia to meet its commitment to cease all military activities in Georgia, and we expect all Russian forces that have entered Georgia in recent days to withdraw from that country," Bush said.
"To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe and other nations, and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis," he added.
Nearly a week of bombings and rocket attacks has left heavy damage in Georgia. A joint civilian-military assessment team was flying into the country late Wednesday afternoon, local time, to gather information on exactly what is needed, said a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity before the president's announcement. A second flight, with some initial humanitarian supplies such as sleeping bags and water, was to arrive after that.
In a conference call with international reporters earlier in the day, Saakashvili predicted a humanitarian disaster, the result of 100,000 people being displaced from their homes in the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which Russia wants to claim for itself. He also described "ethnic cleansing" in Gori, and said men and women are being separated and men put in internment camps.
Saakashvili said the U.S. and West underestimated Russia's regional ambitions and warned that "America's reputation here, since (the) Cold War, is going to hell now."
"We have been warning them a large scale Russian invasion is coming," Saakashvili said. "(The) State Department told us the Russians are not going to do that."
The Georgian president said Russia's "well planned invasion" is on a larger scale than the first days of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001." He also said he feared Georgia is just the first nation to be subjected to Russia's resurging territorial ambitions.
Saakashvili denied Georgia had provoked the conflict in South Ossetia as Russia has claimed.
"I'm sickened by speculation that Georgia started anything," he said, noting how he had to return to his country while on his way to the Olympics because Georgia had no choice but to "respond or to surrender."
The U.S.-educated Saakashvili credited Republican presidential candidate John McCain with predicting Russia's real intent, but did not make an endorsement in the U.S. presidential campaign.
#1
"We have been warning them a large scale Russian invasion is coming," Saakashvili said. "(The) State Department told us the Russians are not going to do that."
As if we needed any more evidence of the fact that the State Department is a swamp badly in need of draining.
He demanded that Russia open all routes to these deliveries and to civilian transit.
DEBKAfile's military sources report that the strong military actions a furious US president George W. Bush ordered Wednesday, Aug. 13, after seven days of Russian-Georgian warfare, amount to a bid to break the sea, land and air blockade Russia still maintains against Georgia in violation of the EU-brokered ceasefire.
The first direct US-Russian military clashes in Georgia are now possible if the Russians fail to give way when challenged by US air transports and vessels heading for Georgia. For seven days, Russia has exerted exclusive mastery of Georgia's skies, sea and land routes.
Flanked by the secretaries of state and defense, Bush said that Robert Gates as head of the military had already sent the first US Air Force transport with humanitarian and medical aid on its way to Georgia.
Our military sources report that the US air corridor has a short distance to fly from US bases in Italy and Turkey.
The US president accused Moscow of violating the less than one-day old ceasefire fire in its conflict with Georgia, by sending Russian tanks and APC's to the east of the Georgian town of Gori, threatening the capital Tbilisi, bombing the Black Sea port of Poti and sinking Georgian vessels.
Bush reiterated US support for Georgia's democratically-elected government and territorial integrity and declared Russia must cease all military acts and withdraw to positions held before the conflict flared. Russian must keep its word and act to end this crisis, if it wants to achieve its aspirations in the international community.
The Bush statement Wednesday followed reports of Russian tanks entering Gori after the ceasefire, and some 15 armored personnel carriers heading out of the devastated ghost city and blocking the highway connected South Ossetia to the rest of Georgia. Russian "irregulars" were reported killing, burning and looting in Gori and destroying ammunition dumps. A Georgian checkpoint has been placed outside Tbilisi.
Russia was also said to have shot down two Georgian spy drones over the breakaway province.
#4
President George W. Bush does not forgive those who lie to him. He said Prime Minister Putin lied to him about Russian troop movements before the Georgian invasion. Now he is saying Russia must cease lying about ceasing fire. I don't think we need worry about a second Cold War. Russia can act the bully in its Near Abroad, but I suspect they reached their limit selling useless Russian-staffed defence systems to Iran and Syria.
#10
Right now it would be grandstanding. But likewise if Candidate McCain were to go over there and joggle the current president's elbow. Candidates aren't supposed to make foreign policy for the country before they're sworn in.
#13
The leaders of the Baltic States, Poland, and the Ukraine were in Tblisi, attending a mass rally and making television appearances. Here is an excerpt from the Baltic Times article covering the event (I've submitted the article for Rantburg posting):
"You have the right to freedom and independence. We are here to demonstrate our solidarity ... freedom is worth fighting for," said Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko on Georgian television.
Yushchenko appeared on stage with Poland's President Lech Kaczynski and his colleagues from Estonia, Toomas Hendrik Ilves, and Lithuania, Valdas Adamkus, as well as Latvia's Prime Minister Godmanis, addressing thousands of people who gathered for the rally.
Georgian President Saakashvili was first to address the rally. "This is the new Europe. Georgia is a European country which will defend its integrity," he said.
He thanked the Lithuanian president for everything Lithuania has done for Georgia and for the mission of Lithuanian Foreign Minister Petras Vaitekunas. ""I would like to thank you, President Adamkus, for your minister and for his coming here during the difficult times and the actions that he took," said Saakashvili, adding that the Lithuanian diplomacy chief stood with the Georgian nation during its most difficult time.
Vaitekunas and representatives of other European countries went to Georgia at weekend to discuss negotiations about the peace plan.
Godmanis, Yushchenko, Kaczynski, Ilves and Adamkus joined hands and held them aloft to cheers from the crowd of tens of thousands which was awash with the Georgian national colours of red and white as well as flags of the US, the European Union (EU), France, Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine.
"This country [Russia] seeks to restore its dominance, but the time of dominance is over," Polish President Kaczynski told the crowd, which chanted "Poland, Poland!" as he took the microphone.
"You are not alone, we are standing with you ... Let's stand together united and victory will be on our side," said Lithuania's Adamkus.
Estonia's Ilves said: "Everyone who believes in freedom and democracy is saying today 'I am Georgian'. We are here to demonstrate our solidarity." He said "I am Georgian" in Georgian.
#14
"Everyone who believes in freedom and democracy is saying today 'I am Georgian'...
Which is why you won't hear it on America's campuses. All the anti-war protest was just a front for the Anti-American chic who live off the tit of academia and limousine socialists. It was never about principle, just power.
#15
"Which is why you won't hear it on America's campuses. All the anti-war protest was just a front for the Anti-American chic who live off the tit of academia and limousine socialists. "
so whats the excuse of john Derbyshire, and dozens of others on the right, inluding some folks whove posted here?
A rightwinger can actively make excuses for Russia, and thats a legitimate thoughtful reflexion on the "hypocrisy" of us balkan policy, but lefties are anti-Georgian cause they haven organized in a couple of days? Gotcha.
#16
Over dinner last night, Mrs. Ret offered up the statement that there was no obvious mobilization of Navy folks @ NASWI. (her work at the Naval Hospital there puts her in a good spot to observe such goning's ons). So probably not a lot on additional manpower requirements; at least for Medical or NAVAIR type stuff.
#19
A rightwinger can actively make excuses for Russia, and thats a legitimate thoughtful reflexion on the "hypocrisy" of us balkan policy, but lefties are anti-Georgian cause they haven organized in a couple of days?
Actually, McZoid has been criticized vigorously on that point.
I'll let the campuses prove me wrong. They won't so there is no gotcha till it happens. As for others you want to throw into the pot, just add their names, it doesn't alter my point on their use of fake principles to rationalize the usual suspects hatred of the environment that makes their existence possible.
Bush orders US Air Force-Navy humanitarian airlift to Georgia
DEBKAfile Special Report
August 13, 2008, 7:07 PM (GMT+02:00)
Bush starts to remove the gloves
He demanded that Russia open all routes to these deliveries and to civilian transit.
DEBKAfiles military sources report that the strong military actions a furious US president George W. Bush ordered Wednesday, Aug. 13, after seven days of Russian-Georgian warfare, amount to a bid to break the sea, land and air blockade Russia still maintains against Georgia in violation of the EU-brokered ceasefire.
The first direct US-Russian military clashes in Georgia are now possible if the Russians fail to give way when challenged by US air transports and vessels heading for Georgia. For seven days, Russia has exerted exclusive mastery of Georgias skies, sea and land routes.
Flanked by the secretaries of state and defense, Bush said that Robert Gates as head of the military had already sent the first US Air Force transport with humanitarian and medical aid on its way to Georgia.
Our military sources report that the US air corridor has a short distance to fly from US bases in Italy and Turkey.
The US president accused Moscow of violating the less than one-day old ceasefire fire in its conflict with Georgia, by sending Russian tanks and APCs to the east of the Georgian town of Gori, threatening the capital Tbilisi, bombing the Black Sea port of Poti and sinking Georgian vessels.
Bush reiterated US support for Georgias democratically-elected government and territorial integrity and declared Russia must cease all military acts and withdraw to positions held before the conflict flared. Russian must keep its word and act to end this crisis, if it wants to achieve its aspirations in the international community.
The Bush statement Wednesday followed reports of Russian tanks entering Gori after the ceasefire, and some 15 armored personnel carriers heading out of the devastated ghost city and blocking the highway connected South Ossetia to the rest of Georgia. Russian irregulars were reported killing, burning and looting in Gori and destroying ammunition dumps. A Georgian checkpoint has been placed outside Tbilisi.
Russia was also said to have shot down two Georgian spy drones over the breakaway province.
#22
superstitiousGalitizianer, not left-wingers per se, anti-war (e.g. ati-US-and-its-allies-war, the wars initiated from the other side are peachy with them, cuz they are righteous), although, there is some overlap, as well with Ron Paulite right.
#24
"Which is why you won't hear it on America's campuses. All the anti-war protest was just a front for the Anti-American chic who live off the tit of academia and limousine socialists. "
so whats the excuse of john Derbyshire, and dozens of others on the right, inluding some folks whove posted here?
A rightwinger can actively make excuses for Russia, and thats a legitimate thoughtful reflexion on the "hypocrisy" of us balkan policy, but lefties are anti-Georgian cause they haven organized in a couple of days? Gotcha.
Hold that thought.
I think a lot of the "conservatives" arguing the neo-soviet cause are doing so in name only.
I could mention some posters here who continously talk about how they're really against the Moslem enemy but when you look closely their proposed actions would tend to mostly hurt all those people in the moslem world who threw in their lot with the US instead of Saddam or Osama or Ayman or wosshisname in Iran. And they pretend Putin is some sort of savior when he's been one of our enemies' major suppliers of weapons and other technology.
I've looked at the situation, I've medidated, I've prayed to God, and I've finally come to the conclusion that if we're gonna pin our hopes on a savior, Putin is much inferior to The Emperor Bonaparte.
#26
To get back on topic, I like this comment posted at Gateway Pundit:
Chuck Simmins said...
Providing humanitarian assistance is a task normally assigned to the State Department. Assigning this mission to the Department of Defense suggests that the MRE's and cots will be shipped in crates labeled Stingers, or maybe the other way around.
by some of us, yes. and as much for spamming as anything else. Some similar thoughts, expressed APPROPRIATELY, have not drawn anywhere near the venom.
I am pretty sure that there are folks on campus already organizing, as there are on Sudan, Burma and Tibet.
And no, they wont be folks in ANSWER or similar anti-US "antiwar" groups. If Proco had ONLY attacked groups like that hed have my sympathy -certainly Id suspect hes right.
But he went further attacking all campus activists, which just makes no sense to me. This has happened very fast. It takes time to organize a rally, if youve ever been involved in doing so.
BTW, where I live most universities arent even in session yet. Anyone thought of that?
"Everyone who believes in freedom and democracy is saying today 'I am Georgian'...
Which is why you won't hear it on America's campuses. All the anti-war protest was just a front for the Anti-American chic who live off the tit of academia and limousine socialists. It was never about principle, just power.
#32
#28 superwhatever -- of course I know that! It's always been the military delivering those goods marked with USAID (I read that as State Department).
I watched those Marines landing. I watched those helicopters fly flight after flight. I even know there were Navy ships anchored out, with sailors forgoing showers so water could be flown ashore.
I just thought Chuck's comment was clever, and wanted to get back on topic instead of all this he said, she said stuff.
Go back and read what I posted. I didn't say DOD doesn't do humanitarian work. I've been working on my Rantburg University diploma too long not to have known that!
#34
so far the only folks saying "i am georgian" are the folks from Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltics.
I dont see any upsurge ANYWHERE in the US, and that includes most of the rightwing blogosphere, where the concern seems to mainly for John Edwards baby, and whether a cold spell is probative relative to climate change. Nobody cares, which is why Im where some folks do. Though MANY dont. So I dont see any need on the part of campuses to prove anythign any more than anybody else.
#35
with sailors forgoing showers so water could be flown ashore.
Having been Navy, we make fresh water from seawater, it's not the water is short, I see this as a "Share the load" Gesture, The real problem is containers to ferry water ashore, as a rule we don't carry those.
I know of several instances where Navy ships Tied up to piers and connected to the city's water mains with Fire Hoses to provide the ship's water to the city.
(Usualy Nukes, with power to spare, Water costs fuel.)
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
08/13/2008 18:06 Comments ||
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#36
"President George W. Bush does not forgive those who lie to him."
True enough, TW. I suspect Putin knows that also.
Putin, who holds a weak hand, is now screwed. I wonder if some ambitious SOB attacked on his own while Putin was abroad? What Putin has now is a fait accompli (or not so accompli as the case may be) and everybody pissed at him. And what did he gain? Salve the wounded pride of the Russian military? Capture a pipeline that hasn't been built yet?
Someone Russian, and I'm not sure it was Putin, screwed up royally. Putin is ruthless enough to go for what he wants, but he is NOT stupid. And this attempt at annexation is starting to look like a loser, and stupid.
#37
Actually McCain said - "we are all Georgians today" Saakzhivilli (sp?) even said that in his speech to the masses who attended that rally today and mentioned McCain's name wrt that. There were even U.S. flags being flown at the rally according to one of the shows I caught today.
#38
As a gentle rejoinder, I don't think Putin holds a weak hand. He's in possession of the two 'breakaway provinces', has a division of troops in the land, has armor and air units working, and has the bellicosity to go further. He holds the land right now.
I'd say that's a reasonably strong hand. Doesn't mean he can't be beat, but it's a strong hand.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 23:02 Comments ||
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A column of 70 Russian military vehicles, including military trucks with anti-aircraft guns and artillery as well as armoured personnel carriers, sped down the road to Tbilisi fluttering Russian flags.
Earlier, as the EU announced plans to send peacekeeping troops to monitor the ceasefire, Russian troops patrolled Gori, destroying an empty Georgian military base in the frontline Georgian town and setting up a checkpoint on the road to Tbilisi.-
Civilians in Gori today claimed they had been shot at by Russian soldiers and South Ossetian snipers, who local residents said have been attacking villages outside the town. Georgian troops pulled back from the town of Gori earlier this week.
Georgia has also lost its last stronghold in another separatist province, Abkhazia, overnight as its troops withdrew from the Kodori Gorge. Russian-backed separatist forces took advantage of the Georgian military's collapse to attack Kodori. More than 100 Russian military vehicles entered the gorge on Tuesday forcing the Georgian retreat.
Diplomatic efforts to resolve the six-day crisis remain mired in confusing claim and counter-claim.
Russia continued to press its advantage by demanding a review of the future status of separatist regions in Georgia, even though the issue was cut from a French plan for ending the Russian-Georgian conflict. "It is not possible to resolve these issues outside the context of the status" of the Georgian provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.
France, which is currently European Union president, called for peacekeeping monitors ahead of an emergency meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels this morning. Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, emphasised that the EU should have a presence "on the ground" in the Georgian breakaway region of South Ossetia. "The idea of having monitors - what you call peacekeeping troops, I wouldn't call them like that - but European controllers, monitors, facilitators, yes, yes and yes." "Controllers, monitors, European facilitators, I think the Russians would accept that," he added. He gave no specifics about how large the force would be or which nations would contribute, but Bulgaria has already indicated it would allow its Black Sea port of Burgas to be used a logistics base.
Mr Kouchner's statement appeared to contradict comments made earlier in the day by British Foreign Minister David Miliband, who suggested that an EU peacekeeping force was not required. He called for a "proper international presence" in the region, but added: "I think at the moment people are talking more about the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)".
The 56 nation OSCE, which counts both Georgia and Russia as members, has been used in the past as a forum for defusing Cold War tensions. But EU president France, riding high after the success of president Nicolas Sarkozy in brokering a ceasefire following meetings in both Moscow and Tbilisi, appears keen to secure that triumph with an EU force.
Alexander Stubb, foreign minister from current OSCE president Finland, said the EU would play a central role "either on the side of the civilian crisis management or the side of military crisis management and peacekeeping". "We have a ceasefire, we do not yet have peace," he noted, adding that limited hostilities were likely to continue. "What is probably going to happen is a few skirmishes and a few bombs here and there," he said.
Though the EU peacekeeping plan is still at the planning stage, bickering has already broken out among the 27 EU members over how what action, if any, to take against Russia and how strongly to condemn Moscow's actions.
New EU members states from central and eastern Europe, which once felt Moscow's dominance behind the Iron Curtain, have been vocal in their support for Georgia in the face of Russia "aggression". Yesterday, a delegation of leaders from Poland, Ukraine and three Baltic states arrived in Tbilisi as a gesture of solidarity. In Brussels, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Petras Vaitiekunas said Russia's military response during fighting in the last week had been "unacceptable and unproportional". "Of course there must be some consequences of aggression," he said.
But older EU nations, particularly Germany, are keen not to demonise Russia and risk vital ties, notably over energy supplies of oil and gas.German Chancellor Angela Merkel is due to hold talks with Russian president Dmitry Medvedev on Friday in Russia's Black Sea port of Sochi, just a few miles north of its border with Georgia. Berlin, which built up close ties with Moscow under the leadership of former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, has so far been more moderate in criticism of Russia than other EU states, calling for a ceasefire this week because the conflict had revealed the "clear military superiority of Russian forces".
At the foreign ministers' meeting in Brussels however, David Miliband said that following the war in Georgia, the EU must now decide whether to scrap talks over closening co-operation between the bloc and Moscow. He said EU ministers would meet next month in France to discuss "whether or not and how to proceed with the partnership and cooperation agreement". A deal to renew the agreement, initially signed in the 1990s, has been stalled for years.
#1
Russia-The friends and funders of all our enemies!!!
Things wont channge till Putin and his Cronies are Forced out!!!
Read Livichenkos books re FSB/KGB control of the country and their dodgy pals eg Drug dealers,terrorist etc!!!
Posted by: Paul ||
08/13/2008 11:38 Comments ||
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#2
They'd better start building nuclear power plants throughout the EU now. Or perhaps France, which seems to have no maidenly scruples against such things, can set itself up as the alternative power supplier to Russia. Can we help the Eastern European and Baltic nations build set up power plants for themselves? Surely with all the plans being approved here, one of them would function nicely as a turn-key operation.
#3
The column (of Ossetian volunteers) turned off the main road towards a supply base the Russians are building.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 11:48 Comments ||
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Halpin said that the column turned off the Tbilisi road after about 20km and headed east to the village of Orjosani, where the Russians appeared to be preparing some kind of supply base. Many of those with the column were Ossetian irregulars identified by a piece of white cloth tied around their right arms.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 11:49 Comments ||
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#5
finally ...
Bush orders US Air Force-Navy humanitarian airlift to Georgia
DEBKAfile Special Report
August 13, 2008, 7:07 PM (GMT+02:00)
Bush starts to remove the gloves
He demanded that Russia open all routes to these deliveries and to civilian transit.
DEBKAfiles military sources report that the strong military actions a furious US president George W. Bush ordered Wednesday, Aug. 13, after seven days of Russian-Georgian warfare, amount to a bid to break the sea, land and air blockade Russia still maintains against Georgia in violation of the EU-brokered ceasefire.
The first direct US-Russian military clashes in Georgia are now possible if the Russians fail to give way when challenged by US air transports and vessels heading for Georgia. For seven days, Russia has exerted exclusive mastery of Georgias skies, sea and land routes.
Flanked by the secretaries of state and defense, Bush said that Robert Gates as head of the military had already sent the first US Air Force transport with humanitarian and medical aid on its way to Georgia.
Our military sources report that the US air corridor has a short distance to fly from US bases in Italy and Turkey.
The US president accused Moscow of violating the less than one-day old ceasefire fire in its conflict with Georgia, by sending Russian tanks and APCs to the east of the Georgian town of Gori, threatening the capital Tbilisi, bombing the Black Sea port of Poti and sinking Georgian vessels.
Bush reiterated US support for Georgias democratically-elected government and territorial integrity and declared Russia must cease all military acts and withdraw to positions held before the conflict flared. Russian must keep its word and act to end this crisis, if it wants to achieve its aspirations in the international community.
The Bush statement Wednesday followed reports of Russian tanks entering Gori after the ceasefire, and some 15 armored personnel carriers heading out of the devastated ghost city and blocking the highway connected South Ossetia to the rest of Georgia. Russian irregulars were reported killing, burning and looting in Gori and destroying ammunition dumps. A Georgian checkpoint has been placed outside Tbilisi.
Russia was also said to have shot down two Georgian spy drones over the breakaway province.
#6
CNN correspondent Matthew Chance... said most soldiers refused to comment, but one told him: "We have come here with the approval of the Georgian people."
Now where I've heard that before? Oh, I remember now!
August 21, 1968; Brno, Czechoslovakia.
Yes, I remember as if it were today. I can never forget.
Sooo, McZoid, Russians are now different, right?
I am not inclined to yell profanities, generally, but if I were, I would be yelling "Fuck you!"
#7
This nonsense has gone on long enough. I think it would be appropriate at this point to include a few thousand NATO troops in the airlift. My guess is if they were stationed in and around Tbilisi the Russians would have enough sense not to engage them. I happen to believe Putin was right about Kosovo but that's no excuse to let him conquer Georgia. He needs to get the hell out of Gori and he needs to back off now.
Look at a map: we have no good military solution. The Russians control air and sea access to Georgia, and we can't change that without a major, major confrontation. That's probably something we don't want to do.
NATO can't help -- more importantly won't help -- more importantly, shouldn't help. NATO is an organization without a mission, and several major NATO countries have no interest whatsoever in defending Georgia. They've made that clear. If we push the issue through NATO it will mean the end of that organization (whether that is a feature or bug is a topic for a different conversation).
We can't get to Georgia, realistically, without the help and permission of the Turks. Note that they aren't exactly our best friends. They have to live in the neighborhood and they've never been good friends with the Georgians. They may be quite content to let the Georgians twist.
Now then: if there is no military solution (and I maintain that there isn't), then George Bush has relatively few options right now. He can mount a humanitarian mission (in progress), he can work behind the scenes with other countries (e.g., Poland), and he can work around the margins to make life more uncomfortable for the Russians (e.g., no G8 membership). But we're not going to provoke the Russians into a rash confrontation, because we'd be all alone. The Europeans simply won't risk their economy by risking their natural gas supplies. The other Russian neighbors (e.g., Armenia) won't risk their own independence to help us. And we just can't surge through the Bosporous.
We're stuck in the short term. The long-term is a question we should be asking of both Senators McCain and Obama.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 15:49 Comments ||
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#9
Look at a map: we have no good military solution. The Russians control air and sea access to Georgia, and we can't change that without a major, major confrontation. That's probably something we don't want to do.
I fundamentally agree. NATO troops fighting Russians in Georgia is not the solution.
NATO can't help -- more importantly won't help -- more importantly, shouldn't help. NATO is an organization without a mission
I very broadly disagree.
, and several major NATO countries have no interest whatsoever in defending Georgia. They've made that clear. If we push the issue through NATO it will mean the end of that organization (whether that is a feature or bug is a topic for a different conversation).
a different convo indeed.
We can't get to Georgia, realistically, without the help and permission of the Turks. Note that they aren't exactly our best friends. They have to live in the neighborhood and they've never been good friends with the Georgians. They may be quite content to let the Georgians twist.
I respectfully think you have the players confused. The Azeris and the Turks have been workign quite closely with the Georgians and that is very reflected in the pipeline routes. The Armenians OTOH are favorable to the Russians. And the Armenians are also closer to the Iranians, who are hostile the Azeribaijanis. I know that doesnt quite match the sense of good guys and bad guys some folks have based on religion and clash of civ theory, but in this region language, sect, and geopolitics complicate all that.
Not that I think we should be sening in troops, but I wouldnt blame the Turks.
Now then: if there is no military solution (and I maintain that there isn't), then George Bush has relatively few options right now. He can mount a humanitarian mission (in progress), he can work behind the scenes with other countries (e.g., Poland), and he can work around the margins to make life more uncomfortable for the Russians (e.g., no G8 membership).
I dont consider those minor actions. WE cant fight the Russians, but the Georgians can continue to. This was great for Putin when it looked like an easy victory in a few days, breaking the Georgian army and sending Saakashvili packing. If Saak survives in power, if the georgian army regroups, and if Russia ends up settling for marginal improvements to its position on the ground in S Ossetia, that may still be a russian victory, but its a very different kind - perhaps a pyricc victory in the long run - granted only in the long run, but short term actions set up that long run.
But we're not going to provoke the Russians into a rash confrontation, because we'd be all alone. The Europeans simply won't risk their economy by risking their natural gas supplies.
If youre saying they wont do something rash like sending troops, I agree. That doesnt mean there arent things they can be persuaded to do that will put a fair amount of pain on Russia, esp given that Russia did NOT stop with "reasonable gains" but decided to go for what EUROPEANS will think of as disproportionately far.
The other Russian neighbors (e.g., Armenia) won't risk their own independence to help us.
the armenians expect the Russians to protect them in Nagorno-Karabakh. They DONT LIKE THE GEORGIANS, they DO like the russians (going back 150 years or so).
And we just can't surge through the Bosporous.
Again, it doesnt matter, we're not sending troops in anyway. It would have been one thing had Georgia been IN NATO, but it isnt.
We're stuck in the short term.
again, I disagree. The short term positions the long term. In particular the reaction of the Georgian people will dramatically effect the extent to which Putin can reasonably spin this as a victory, and since such spin, and the image as the strong horse (and by implication the West as the weak horse) is precisely one of the main goals of the op, it is CRUCIAL that we do what we can to impact the Georgian reaction.
The long-term is a question we should be asking of both Senators McCain and Obama.
In the centre of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, many buildings have been completely destroyed in the fighting. There are apartment buildings all around with smashed windows, with bullet and shrapnel damage and gaping holes where there used to be windows.
People in Tskhinvali - the few that remain after many fled the fighting - told me they can see no future for South Ossetia in Georgia now, if they ever did. They very clearly blame Georgia for the fighting and are extremely angry with President Mikhail Saakashvili, comparing him to Adolf Hitler.
Russian troops have been greeted in Tskhinvali as lifesavers. People in the streets have been saying "thank you Russia, thank you Russia".
Most people in South Ossetia hold Russian passports and people feel a great affinity with Russia, and with North Ossetia over the border. Posters in the street say "a united Ossetia is our future".
Georgians and South Ossetians used to live side by side but it looks like this will not be possible in the future.
I have seen the wreck of two Georgian tanks on a square near what was the main base of Russian peacekeepers. The Russian military, which we are travelling with, said Georgian tanks fired on the peacekeepers and that was one of the key moments in this conflict. Georgia says it only acted in response to attacks by separatist and Russian forces.
I have been speaking to residents who are out trying to clear the wreck of their houses. They have told me they have no water and no electricity here and they showed me the tiny basements where they sat out the fighting with their children. One woman showed me where she hid with her daughter for two days with only a small lamp and a can of condensed milk.
The streets are quiet now but we did pass villages where houses were on fire.
A Russian military spokesman says the city of Tskhinvali itself is under Russian control now and there are no reports of any serious fighting. But as to when the Russian troops will withdraw, he said there had been no official order for that.
I was told by the Russian army that it will respond with force if the region is attacked again. On the way to Tskhinvali I saw about 12 armoured personnel carriers carrying tired-looking Russian soldiers heading away from South Ossetia. But I have also seen military movement in the other direction, army trucks carrying personnel moving towards South Ossetia.
Those who have fled, however, seem in no hurry to return. I have seen no convoy of refugees gladly returning to their capital - indeed those I spoke to yesterday in North Ossetia, said they were not ready to go back to their homes.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 11:05 ||
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#1
They very clearly blame Georgia for the fighting and are extremely angry with President Mikhail Saakashvili, comparing him to Adolf Hitler.
That's pretty good hyperbole, comparing a guy who shelled an enemy-held city with someone who killed 12m civilians under his control.
#1
Worked well didn't it? Russia violated the truce.
Seems they didn't listen to the One. Now what?
Strongly worded letter from the One?
Looks of disapproval from the One?
Dire warnings of further action from the One?
#6
The Obamessiah loves to talk about airlifts. I agree with AlanC. Let him start talking about the "W" airlift to Tblisi. It would sure be interesting to know how many USAF Combat Control Teams, US Army Rangers, and 18's are on the ground there right now. Come on Putin you Spetznaz KGB piece of KAK, go for it.
GANMUKHURI, GEORGIA (AP) - An AP reporter says a few dozen fighters from the separatist region of Abkhazia have moved into Georgian territory, planting their flag on a bridge over the Inguri River.
"This is Abkhazian land," one proclaimed. They say they are laying claim to what has historically been Abkhazian territory and that Georgian troops left without challenging them.
The fighters had moved across a thin slice of land dotted with Georgian villages.
"The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told AP on Wednesday. He said Georgia would have to accept the new border and taunted the departed Georgian forces by saying they had received "American training in running away."
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 08:41 ||
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Can you get a more blatant example of the reversion of the world to tribalism than this?
Does every valley have to be it's own country now? The wold seems to be deconstructing to a time before the Romans.
#2
Every village thug getting his chance to be a head of state, print their own currency, loot the treasury etc.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 15:09 Comments ||
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#3
Not really, or rather there are two opposite trends in play and they are not reconcillable... and there can be only one at the end.
It's just Pooty is a subscriber of divide, employ a thug and conquer. in this case.
Which is nothing new in the area, Soviets practiced it in spades and if you look at the ethnic map of Russia, you'll see the degree of how that policy was employed--swiss cheese would not even begin to describe it.
Which, of course, one day will kick them into their ass big time. Let alone Abkhazia/S Ossetia adventure will have a bunch of unintended consequences within Russia proper in not that far remote future.
Violence has flared up in Georgia, where Russian tanks have been seen patrolling the town of Gori, says the BBC's Gavin Hewitt near the scene.
One witness told the BBC he saw a convoy of Russian vehicles on the road to the Georgian capital Tbilisi. People leaving the town say there is looting going on involving South Ossetian separatists.
Another BBC reporter in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, says many buildings have been totally destroyed.
A ceasefire is in place, but it seems to be very fragile, correspondents say.
In Gori, the Russian tanks seem to be dismantling and destroying Georgian army bases in the town, our correspondent says. It is not clear where the Russian convoy on the Tibilisi road is heading.
There are reports of residents being stripped of their belongings at gunpoint on the entrances to the city. There is a pall of smoke over Gori's market, but it is not clear if any more fighting has been going on in the town Terrified residents have watched their houses being torched, and the situation may well be worse in outlying villages, our correspondent adds.
There is also a Russian checkpoint with two Russian tanks outside Gori on the main road leading into the town from the Georgian capital Tbilisi, an eyewitness told the BBC. But the Russian foreign ministry says it has no Russian troops left in Gori, Reuters news agency reports.
On Tuesday, Russian forces said their military activity in the area was completed after Georgian security forces were driven out of the town during fighting.
In Tskhinvali, the main offices of the local administration are a blackened shell, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in the South Ossetian capital. There are apartment buildings all around with smashed windows, with bullet and shrapnel damage and gaping holes where there used to be windows. Two Georgian tanks stand on a square near what was the main base of Russian peacekeepers. Residents who are out trying to clear their wrecked homes say they have no water and no electricity.
The streets are quiet now, but houses were on fire in villages along the route to the city, our correspondent adds.
Tskhinvali itself is under Russian control now and there are no reports of any serious fighting, but there is no confirmation as to when the Russian troops will withdraw, a Russian military spokesman said.
Foreign ministers from the European Union are holding emergency talks in Brussels on the crisis between Russia and Georgia. A key element calls for all forces to return to the areas where they were before fighting broke out last week.
Some 100,000 people are estimated to have been displaced by the conflict, which has created huge tensions in international relations.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 08:13 ||
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A column of Russian tanks and armored personnel carriers (APCs) on Wednesday left Gori and headed in the direction of the Georgian capital Tbilisi, an AFP journalist witnessed. (UPDATED)
The convoy, comprised of about 60 tanks, APCs and other vehicles, was seen 10 kilometers (six miles) outside Gori heading in the direction of Tbilisi, the journalist said.
Russian soldiers leaned out of the windows of the trucks shouting "Tbilisi! Tbilisi!" and waving Russian flags.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 9:01 Comments ||
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#2
Russian-backed separatist forces took advantage of the Georgian military's collapse to attack Kodori.
More than 100 Russian military vehicles entered the gorge on Tuesday forcing the Georgian retreat.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 9:31 Comments ||
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#3
OK, something does not add up.
Russian leaders trying to cheat?
They say the advances were halted. Therefore it is not happening and these troops don't exist.
Which means some other troops/planes/whathaveyou would not exist while shredding these advances into smithereens.
#4
Looks like they were not headed to Tblisi after all.
Halpin said that the column turned off the Tbilisi road after about 20km and headed east to the village of Orjosani, where the Russians appeared to be preparing some kind of supply base. Many of those with the column were Ossetian irregulars identified by a piece of white cloth tied around their right arms.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 9:46 Comments ||
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#5
They say the advances were halted. Therefore it is not happening and these troops don't exist.
The Russians have said that they will attack any Georgian forces that may threaten their positions.
It appears that Gori will be in the demilitarized buffer zone patrolled by UN peacekeepers. The Russians will not reduce their forces to pre-Aug 7th levels. Georgia will have to surrender the Kodori gorge as well.
Sarkozy was very evasive at the Kremlin news conference yesterday. Looks like he will be feeding Saakashvili a very bitter pill today.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/13/2008 9:53 Comments ||
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#6
but...but...didn't the Messiah-in-Chief (In Waiting) end all the violence with his Grand Diplomacy??
What if just TALKING about stopping aggression isn't enough to actually get a country to STOP BEING AGGRESSIVE???
Bush orders US Air Force-Navy humanitarian airlift to Georgia
DEBKAfile Special Report
August 13, 2008, 7:07 PM (GMT+02:00)
Bush starts to remove the gloves
He demanded that Russia open all routes to these deliveries and to civilian transit.
DEBKAfiles military sources report that the strong military actions a furious US president George W. Bush ordered Wednesday, Aug. 13, after seven days of Russian-Georgian warfare, amount to a bid to break the sea, land and air blockade Russia still maintains against Georgia in violation of the EU-brokered ceasefire.
The first direct US-Russian military clashes in Georgia are now possible if the Russians fail to give way when challenged by US air transports and vessels heading for Georgia. For seven days, Russia has exerted exclusive mastery of Georgias skies, sea and land routes.
Flanked by the secretaries of state and defense, Bush said that Robert Gates as head of the military had already sent the first US Air Force transport with humanitarian and medical aid on its way to Georgia.
Our military sources report that the US air corridor has a short distance to fly from US bases in Italy and Turkey.
The US president accused Moscow of violating the less than one-day old ceasefire fire in its conflict with Georgia, by sending Russian tanks and APCs to the east of the Georgian town of Gori, threatening the capital Tbilisi, bombing the Black Sea port of Poti and sinking Georgian vessels.
Bush reiterated US support for Georgias democratically-elected government and territorial integrity and declared Russia must cease all military acts and withdraw to positions held before the conflict flared. Russian must keep its word and act to end this crisis, if it wants to achieve its aspirations in the international community.
The Bush statement Wednesday followed reports of Russian tanks entering Gori after the ceasefire, and some 15 armored personnel carriers heading out of the devastated ghost city and blocking the highway connected South Ossetia to the rest of Georgia. Russian irregulars were reported killing, burning and looting in Gori and destroying ammunition dumps. A Georgian checkpoint has been placed outside Tbilisi.
Russia was also said to have shot down two Georgian spy drones over the breakaway province.
#8
Our military sources report that the US air corridor has a short distance to fly from US bases in Italy and Turkey.
If true, this means that Turkey has approved using its airspace (and probably road/rail networks) as a supply corridor(s) to the intact Georgian government in Georgia.
#9
What happened to the total destruction of Tskhinvali? If the buildings around the government buildings are still intact enough to be standing, then maybe we were sold a bill of goods about Georgian "genocidal" bombardment?
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/13/2008 12:57 Comments ||
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Georgian officials charged Wednesday that Russian tanks had rolled into a strategic city and seized a military base inside Georgia, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end a conflict that had bloodied and battered the U.S. ally and uprooted an estimated 100,000 people.
Russia immediately denied its tanks were in the Georgian city of Gori, but acknowledged that some Russian soldiers were there.
The accusation came less than 12 hours after Georgia's president said he accepted a cease-fire plan brokered by France. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that Russia was halting military action because Georgia had paid enough for its attack on South Ossetia, a separatist region along the Russian border with close ties to Moscow.
Still, Medvedev ordered the Russian defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting to destroy any resistance or aggressive actions.
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili had gambled on a surprise attack late Thursday to regain control over his country's pro-Russian breakaway province of South Ossetia. Instead, Georgia suffered a punishing beating from Russian tanks and aircraft that has left the country with even less control over territory than it had before.
In the west, Georgian troops acknowledged Wednesday they had completely pulled out of a small section of Abkhazia, a second separatist regiona development that leaves the entire area in the hands of the Russian-backed separatists.
A few dozen separatist fighters moved into Georgian territory on Wednesday, planting their flag on a bridge over the Inguri River.
"The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told AP on Wednesday. He said Georgia would have to accept the new border and taunted the departed Georgian forces by saying they had received "American training in running away."
Obama sets up a Nuremburg-style rally in Berlin and the Euro elites swoon while sipping their espressos. Shades of JFK! A man who can unite us and lead us into a new age of comfort and multilingualism!!
Or not. It was McCain who immediately spoke out against Russia's tyranny and oppression. "We are all Georgians now." - today's equivalent of Ich bin ein Berliner. The Georgian people shouted their gratitude as did the Estonian, Polish, Ukrainian and Latvian leaders who joined the Georgians at the massive rally.
#3
If I were barack, Id steal a march and show up in Tbilisi. But Im not.
Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer
That would require actually putting his lame self in a situation that MIGHT be dangerous. Nothing Sen. Obama believes is worth putting himself at risk (while conversely no cost is too great for others to bear). After all, if something happens to the Golden Child humanity is doomed to another 1,000 years of darkness.
#4
Nobama would not be caught dead doing any of this actual in country stuff; why that would mean he would actually have to rub shoulders with those icky military types. they might have cooties!
#2
Because the Russians are at the ragged edge of their sustainable logistics and the Georgians are retreating back to their mountain defensive line. The Russians have the one tunnel through the Caucasus Mountains and then they get to the Georgian cities in the plain. After that, there is another string of mountains called the Lesser Caucasus and that is where the Georgian Army is in strength. Plus, the political fallout is not what the Russians had planned on : the EU is actually trying to support the Georgians, and the former Warsaw Pact nations are all talking about mutual defense and building up their respective militaries because of this invasion.
#4
The planned primary objective has not been achieved. That damned Saakashvili, on orders of his Zionist and American puppet masters totally wrecked the timing of the whole masterful chess game.
Not only that, now the former satellite countries have the audacity to consider forming a mutual defense treaty and a block!
#8
If Russia is at the end of it's Supply Line, why is it blockading Gori and look to be ready to move on Tblisi? It seems either Putin is desperate to scare the rest of the Caucasus into submission or Russia isn't having as large a supply problem as believed.
Posted by: Charles ||
08/13/2008 8:40 Comments ||
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WASHINGTON - The United States is likely to cancel a naval exercise with Russia to indicate its disapproval of MoscowÕs military operations in Georgia, a senior U.S. defense official said on Tuesday.
The annual exercise, known as FRUKUS, also involves vessels from Britain and France and was due to begin within the next week in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of the Russian port city of Vladivostok, Pentagon officials said. ÒIn all likelihood it will be canceled,Ó the senior defense official said, speaking on condition of anonymity as no decision has yet been officially announced.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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Perhaps they could merely reorganize the exercise so that the Russian navy plays defence against a joint attack team of the American, British and French? Perhaps the Georgian and Ukrainian navies can join in, now that they are not otherwise occupied...
BRUSSELS - Georgia has asked NATO for military assistance, notably to replace a radar system destroyed in the Russian offensive, the country's ambassador to NATO said Tuesday. "To start with, we have difficulties with our radar systems which were destroyed and we asked for new equipment," Georgian Ambassador to NATO Revaz Beshidze told reporters in Brussels. "We are working with the NATO military council and we discussed all the possibilities, including military assistance," he added, following ambassador-level talks with the 26 NATO nations.
He refused to give details of other demands for assistance made during the meeting in Brussels but said "we expect a reaction as soon as possible."
On Georgia's wish to join NATO, Tbilisi's representative recognised that the alliance remained divided on the bid, which is strongly opposed by Moscow. "We received the solidarity of the allies but some nations are very far from a common position" on Georgian membership, he admitted. "There is still not a consensus on this matter."
Georgia's NATO candidature, backed by Washington, does not have unanimous NATO support. At the last NATO summit in Bucharest in April, members states refrained from offering candidate status to Georgia or fellow hopeful Ukraine -- amid misgivings from France and Germany among others -- but said both had a future within the alliance.
NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer assured Georgia earlier on Tuesday that the alliance had not gone cold on the idea of eventual Georgian membership. "Georgia is a respected partner and friend and one day Georgia will join NATO," Scheffer told reporters following the NATO talks with Georgia. "I think that the Bucharest communique stands. That was the situation and that is the situation and that has not changed" despite the current conflict with Russia, he said.
But Beshidze said NATO's reluctance to offer Georgia candidature at the Bucharest summit was "a big mistake... because they gave a green light to Russia".
Some observers believe that Georgia's military action in its breakaway region of South Ossetia, which prompted Russia's response, has hurt it chances of NATO membership. Belgian Foreign Minister Karel de Gucht, in a newspaper interview, was critical of Georgia's original decision to intervene militarily in its breakaway region of South Ossetia. "It was obvious that the Russians would react strongly," he said.
And the Georgians didn't have any heavy barbers in response ...
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
MOSCOW NEWS MONTHLY > NATO remains willing to still consider Georgia for formal NATO Membership.
*FARK.com Poster > UNCONFIRMED - Poster claims via confidential USAF source that MILPROPOS IS IN THE WORKS FOR BRITAIN-USAF TO AIRLIFT A LARGE ARMED CONTINGENT TO GEORGIA FROM IRAQ, TO ARRIVE AND BE FULLY EMPLACED IN GEORGIA NLT 08/19th = EOM August 2008???
#3
McZ, actually, a short cold war would not be that bad. Once Russian leadership (probably without Putin) comes to their senses, the whole thing would be over.
#4
Well if the Russians want to play monopoly on energy and empart a policy of expansionism , then I for one , am supportive of extending radar placements , missle shields , and hardware right to their border . Along with an entourage of military advisors , financial packages , and incentives for the states around it .
I guess this is the gist of the phone calls between Bush and Putin.
If Putin and his ilk wanna play hardball , then sure , why not . We can all flex and posture .
Lol, McZoid "noone wants another cold war" - Putin does .... basically because it would galvanize his power base . Only the half witted cant spot that .
#5
Actually, the U.S. can afford another Cold War. We're rich, remember? And we're expanding our military and updating our equipment anyway. Shoot, trailing daughter #1 has a new on-line story-writing partner who posts from Iraq and claims to be a Ranger doing things he can't discuss. (Any suggestions how one checks such claims? I've heard that soldiers have been known to lay it on a bit thick for pretty girls on occasion.)
#6
there will have to be thought about admitting Georgia to NATO. Remember, we still dont know what the endgame on the ground is. The Sarko deal says return to status quo ante, but will Georgian as WELL as Russian peacekeepers return to SO as per '92 agreement? If not, maybe EU peacekeepers. The harder Russia plays it, the more we retaliate. Certainly rebuilding Georgia is the first order of business (and the key to avoid a counter-color revolution) and rebuilding their radar is a reasonable part of that. It lets the Georgians now we are still with them, it lets the Russians know they didnt win as much as they think, and it lets everyone else know that Saak and Georgian defiance survived.
Beyond, we need to revisit the Ukraine NATO membership. And suspend engagements with Russia. Now if Russia REALLY helps on Iran, we can renew relations with them, but we need ACTION from them, not just words.
#7
Actually, the U.S. can afford another Cold War. We're rich, remember? And we're expanding our military and updating our equipment anyway.
TW, y'all may want to look into buying one of those industrial base thingies the next time you're in Wal-Mart. We have a lot less of one now than we did back in the 80's.
#8
nobody has the industrial base for a real war now. You dont make war with plastic toys and cheap clothes. And today, for the most part you dont make war with steel (that the Soviets are doing that in Senaki and Gori is just showing how backward they are)
You make war with silicon - with advanced electronics.
And most of the worlds production of RAM chips is - guess where - Taiwan.
Which would be devastated in the early stages of a real great power war (im assuming China is with the bad guys, cause otherwise it theyre not, and the bad guys are just the Russians well the bad guys really DONT have much chance, so you HAVE to spot them China)
Suddenly everyone would be scrambling around for chips.
"Im sorry sir, but we're confiscating your Xbox, we need to cannibalize the chips for new avionics"
#9
so, whether we can afford a new cold war or not, depends on - you guys are NOT gonna like this, Im sorry - on DIPLOMACY and SOFT POWER.
Whether we are liked, rather than feared. In particular it depends on the extent to which the Chinese can be prevailed upon to relative neutrality, and the Germans to full allied solidarity.
The US and UK alone (or with Aussie and ISrael, neither of which has resources to spare for Eastern Europe) can NOT keep the Russians out the of the Ukraine, esp not if China is sympathetic to the Russians.
US and UK AND GERMANY AND FRANCE AND THE NORDICS AND ITALY AND CANADA probably can keep the Russians out of Ukraine, esp if the Chinese and various assorted immoral 3rd worlders can be prevailed on to see Russia as more of a threat than we are.
Who is more equipped to do this? The answer, my friends, is not obvious.
#10
And today, for the most part you dont make war with steel (that the Soviets are doing that in Senaki and Gori is just showing how backward they are)
It probably doesn't seem so backwards to the people they're killing.
Most of the parts a guided artillery shell are made out of are steel, as are most of the parts of the gun it's fired out of. A lot of the US smart bombs are just plain old crude steel dumb bombs with a steering unit screwed on where the fuse usually goes.
#11
being killed with a knife is pretty bad too, or even with fists. Doesnt mean its the key to global power.
What proportion of the COST of a guided art shell is the steel?
Do you seriously think we will be constrained by absolute shortages of steel? Steel, even at current prices inflated by Chinese growth, is availble relatively cheaply compared to the costs of advanced mil technology - the Brazilians, the Indians, the South Koreans, lots of folks are happy to sell it.
Do you expect all those dudes to boycott the US? Do you expect the powerful Soviet Navy to blockade steel shipments from Brazil to the US?
Look at WW2. There were a number of key raw materials that we didnt produce - as long as we could get them from Latin America or Africa we were fine. What mattered was our production in the key cutting edge technologies of the time - which just happened to be tanks, prop powered aircraft, and carriers (to oversimplify)
The key techs of the time now are advanced techs, not the inputs easily available (and not just from China) on the world market. The biggest US vulnerability is NOT raw steel which can be procured from many sources - it really IS (AFAIK) the concentraion of production of several classes of chips on TaiWAN. The key to a national security industrial strategy would be to make sure we have production capacity for those items far more than steel, and certainly far more than textiles and clothing.
That doesnt help much with social dislocations from trade, but thats too bad.
#12
Chip fabrication plants are expensive and the industry works on razor-thin profit margins.
But setting up a chip fab is not rocket science and if need be we could do so quickly (assuming we got the enviros out of the way).
The critical element in any extended struggle isn't chip fabrication but chip design and software algorithms. It's our outsourcing of those areas that leave us vulnerable.
#15
Never going to happen. NATO is a failed alliance and now more closely resembles a country club group. Once Russia gets their hands on the pipeline, Western Europe will do almost anything Russia wants or the lights go out, since a good portion of energy (natural gas and oil) comes from Russia anyway. With the pipeline in Russian hands, they can bring the cities of Western Europe to a near standstill.
Russia is recreating her empire. She will go as far as she can without forcing a war with the west, and the west will let her go pretty darn far as the press and government is filled with Chamberlain like apologists. The one thing Russia can't afford is a large war against the West. At one time they could afford huge armies and huge losses, but no more. They are losing population fast, and at 142 million down from 147 million six years ago, and with most of their money coming from the West to buy energy, a big war would not be in their favor.
However, small wars against small countries that the West does not have the will to spill blood over is a different story. Increasing pressure on energy supplies to a growing West is also a good way to keep Russia flushed with energy dollars and able to develop, build and sell weapons to nations that will help keep the West off balance.
We may not be in a "Cold War" against Russia, but we are in a race for sure. A race for power and control. A race that we are really not running in and trying to win. Russia has a huge head start and can set themselves up to nicely control politics in Europe and the Middle East for the next 100 years if the West lets them.
The only question is, do we as a rich but politically lazy group let a tyrannical government control our destiny?
#17
Do you expect all those dudes to boycott the US? Do you expect the powerful Soviet Navy to blockade steel shipments from Brazil to the US?
It would take one Kilo-class sub to screw up half a dozen shiploads, and we don't really have the cushion anymore to provide military escort to even half of the goods we import.
#19
its also getting confusing cause we are mixing hot war and cold war conditions.
In a cold war, what would China refuse to sell us? Its hard making analogies from the 1945-1989 cold war, cause then our adversaries and even relatively hostile neutrals (like India) were mainly closed economies. Or sellers of VERY non-strategic goods, like Cuba.
At the moment, I doubt that any DoD procurements would have any trouble getting items from the PRC. The moment the PRC DOES cut something off, they create a new industry for SOMEONE (either in the US, or in a more friendly LDC, depending on the cost structure)
#20
Bush is going to speak in the Rose Garden within the hour according to Fox. Some big announcement? Or just more postureing?
Posted by: Charles ||
08/13/2008 10:04 Comments ||
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#21
Oh, and the cost of decent _alloy_ steel has been going through the roof in the last couple of years.
(Just thinking of stuff like 4140, and stuff that isn't even made _here_ in quantity anymore like 6150 that I was trying to order for a side project).
It seems to go up every time I have to buy some more.
This has been a _MAJOR_ factor in the couple hundred million dollar cost overruns of at least one recent military project that I know of: both LCS prototypes.
#23
sG - many chips used in military systems are reprogrammable. Not all - there are chips whose performance requirements are such that it's worth hard-wiring functionality.
But many more are, if need be, reprogrammable with some effort.
#24
The moment the PRC DOES cut something off, they create a new industry for SOMEONE (either in the US, or in a more friendly LDC, depending on the cost structure)
And it would probably take a couple _years_ to get the ball rolling for that industry, during which time they could present us militarily with a lot of fait accompli.
#25
"It would take one Kilo-class sub to screw up half a dozen shiploads, and we don't really have the cushion anymore to provide military escort to even half of the goods we import."
If all the shiploads were right near each other.
Oh and from UK experience in WW2, you dont need to have cover for all the goods you import in peacetime. In wartime you defer capital projects, and most luxuries to conserve shipping space.
I think if the russkie invade Ukraine, I will try to get more wear out of my t-shirts. Dont need to convoy cheap clothes from SE Asia.
And dont even need to convoy most steel - we can defer new bridges, etc.
#27
In WW2 though we also had much excess margin available. We hadn't cut up all the idle steel mills and shipped them overseas. Everything's Just In Time these days, and as a result it's a lot less resilient in a crisis.
#28
"And it would probably take a couple _years_ to get the ball rolling for that industry, during which time they could present us militarily with a lot of fait accompli"
although the advance signalling of those fait accomplis would have negative strategic implications for them.
And how fast could they improve THEIR forces to do anything meaningful.
#29
"How would we know? Is the sub going to surface and say "We are a Venezuelan sub attacking a Brazilian ore carrier" on the radio?"
If its going to remain in communication with base, yes, effectively. Even if it remains in radio silence, we are presumably following it with Sats, and if its not a nuke sub,it does need to surface pretty often.
I dont know, you seem to be attributing to the Ven navy skills in comm, organization, targeting,etc that it took the Kreigsmarine quite a considerable time and effort and painful experience to learn.
#31
Yugo doesn't give a flying ____ about the Venezuelan people. They're already used to the poverty and he's getting them used to lines for milk already.
He doesn't have to worry about investment to keep production up in his oil sector because he just doesn't and it's worked for him so far.
#34
Darth, you've hit it. This is Putin's goal. An iron grip of energy supplies to Europe. When he controls that, he controls them. He's after the alternate pipeline. Also, he's been feeling much more powerful recently, with his coffers recharged. So, he's been looking for a place to exhibit some power. Bear has only been sleeping, not killed. You're also correct that declining population may be the largest limiting factor on future ambition. But he's sitting pretty now, money from nuke sales to Mullahs, money from arms sales everywhere, and gobs of cash from oil and gas. Things headed up for Russkies and down for Amerikanskies. Like I said, Putin is a realist and a good chess player. Anyone notice that the Siberian oil deposits may be the largest in the world, even surpassing Saoodis' ? This field appears to extend out under the Artic, which is why Putin is already making a move to lay claim to as much territory there as required.
#36
Talking about the "industrial base" needs some perspective. In the event of a major conflict, it is pretty much come as you are. New systems developments take 3 - 5 years minimum. As for chips, most military systems still require "milspec" chips which are very much specialty, low-availability items. Last statistic I saw said that the total annual consumption of electronic components by ALL the world militaries is less than 0.047% of the total annual sales of electronic components.
The real problem in a war would be how to maintain the systems we have as their components age and fail. Most of those components are no longer made and the newer versions of the components may not be usable. The Euros, Japanese, and Chinese have inflicted RoHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) upon us. Basically that means no lead or heavy metals in your components. Problem is that the chemistries of the new lead-free components are incompatible with existing systems - you really can't use a lead free part to repair a circuit board full of leaded (Pb) components. Because the commercial market is mostly for throw-away stuff, it is not an issue for them, but is driving the military crazy.
#37
superstitiousGalitizianer - which is why I say Chinese in Northern Greater Manchuria need to experience the same support from their mother country for their passports that Soviets do in South O.
#39
The thing about another cold war is the Soviet's had rhettoric that enticed a bunch of useful idiots and mystery about how poor and run down they really were. Those things are both mostly gone.
#44
Another thing that is different is that most cargo type ships coming to the US are flagged as Liberian and or Panamanian, not American. So either the non-essential goods will still come in, or someone would have a lot of trouble in the UN for picking on neutrals.
Ships would just go into Canada or Mexico and product would come in by train. It's a different world and I don't think you can seal off the US. There is too much money to be made trading with us.
#45
I happen to be fairly knowledgable about the "Chip war" scenario. Here in Colorado Springs, we have about a dozen chip production facilities (FABs) sitting empty, or doing minimal work. They could be fully functional in about a month, putting out chips. Production initially would be slow, but would grow expontentially as the people became more familiar with the equipment and processes. In three months, there would be no shortage of ANY chip the military or civilian economy can't get elsewhere. Templates are on file for every chip designed or used in the United States. Right now, most of those chips are made more cheaply elsewhere, but the CAPABILITY remains intact here in the US.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/13/2008 21:11 Comments ||
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#3
My guess is that they ended up giving away a lot of the tickets they couldn't sell, and then claimed they sold out. And many of the people who got free tickets had no interest in attending.
Chinese security forces dragged away five U.S. pro-free Tibet protesters who blocked the entrance to a northern Beijing park on Wednesday, breaking up the latest demonstration on the sidelines of the 2008 Olympics.
A British television journalist covering the protest said he had also been briefly detained and that at one point he was pinned to the ground by four or five police officers.
About half a dozen guards took hold of three men and women protesters yelling "Free Tibet!" and led them away from the wooden entrance to the Ethnic Culture Park, not far from the main Olympics sporting complex.
It was not known where the guards took the protesters, who wore T-shirts bearing the same slogan and had chained bicycles to the gate of the park.
Students for a Free Tibet said in a statement that there were eight protesters in total, mostly U.S. citizens.
John Ray, a reporter with British Independent Television News (ITN), accredited to cover the Beijing Games, said he had been pushed and dragged into a police van where he was briefly detained.
The International Olympic Committee said it would investigate the incident
Ratko Mladic, the former Yugoslavia's most wanted war crimes fugitive, sheltered between 2002-05 at properties owned by the Serbian military and in Belgrade apartments, a Serbian minister told a German magazine.
"Between June 1, 2002 and the end of 2005 he sought refuge in three properties owned by the military and in several Belgrade apartments," said Rasim Ljajic, Serbia's minister in charge of cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).
He told German weekly Spiegel that "many people" were aware that the former Bosnian Serb military commander was being hidden by the military, but they kept quiet either because of threats or because they were opposed to him being handed over the ICTY. "Unfortunately we only discovered this afterwards," Ljajic told Spiegel in an interview published this week.
"On the other hand Mladic's stay in Belgrade was only known to a few people," the magazine quoted him as saying in comments published in German. Mladic, indicted by the ICTY for genocide and crimes against humanity for atrocities including the Srebrenica massacre of 8,000 Muslims during Bosnia's 1992-1995 war, has been on the run for more than a decade. The 66-year-old is the most wanted war crimes fugitive after the arrest in Belgrade last month of Radovan Karadzic, his wartime political leader.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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The chairman of the Arkansas Democratic Party was hospitalized in critical condition Wednesday after being shot inside party headquarters in Little Rock, FOX News has confirmed.
Three shots were reportedly fired before a man escaped the area in a blue truck. However, the suspect was shot and apprehended following a 25-mile car chase with police, Little Rock police Lt. Terry Hastings told FOX News.
ÒThere has been an incident at the party and chairman (Bill) Gwatney has been taken to the hospital,Ó Bruce Sinclair, the director of the state Democratic Party, said without describing the shooting.
Sarah Lee, a sales clerk at a flower shop across the street from party headquarters, said that around noon GwatneyÕs secretary ran into the shop and asked someone to call 911. She said a man had come into the party and shot Gwatney multiple times. Lee said the secretary told her the man had come into the partyÕs office and asked to speak with Gwatney. When the secretary said she wouldnÕt allow him to meet with Gwatney, the man went into his office and shot him, Lee said.
She said the secretary described the man as a white male in his 40s, wearing a white shirt and khaki-colored pants. The secretary told Lee he drove off in a blue truck. Lee told FOX News: ÒHe demanded to talk to Bill Gwatney,Ó and said the secretary knew the gun went off, not the extent of the injuries.
She said several other employees were also in the building at the time of the shooting. ÒThey all left the building as quick as they could.Ó
Gwatney, owner of a car dealership, was elected as chairman of the state party in March 2007. He served 10 years in the Arkansas state Senate and was the finance chairman for Mike BeebeÕs successful 2006 gubernatorial bid. He is a superdelegate who endorsed Hillary Clinton for president, according to the Web site sourcewatch.org. Lee described him as, Òa very nice, polished manÓ and a Òbig joker.Ó
Gwatney also earned a reputation for being an outspoken critic of former Arkansas Republican Gov. Mike Huckabee, coining the phrase, ÒPinning Huckabee down on an issue is like nailing Jello to the wall.Ó
#1
Condolences to Mr. Gwatney and his family. FOX News TV is reporting that he's in critical condition right now. The TV also is reporting that police shot and apprehended the assailant.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/13/2008 15:24 Comments ||
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LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) - Police say a man suspected of bursting into the Arkansas Democratic Party headquarters and shooting the party chairman has died.
Police say the suspect burst into the office of Party Chairman Bill Gwatney and fired three shots. Gwatney is hospitalized in critical condition.
Police Lt. Terry Hastings says authorities chased the suspect into Grant County, south of Little Rock, and that he was fatally wounded during a 30-mile chase.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
08/13/2008 17:21 Comments ||
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#4
My condolences to his family and friends as well. At they won't have the pain of going through a murder trial, but it's small comfort indeed. God forbid that the despicable thug who committed this outrage has any connection with the GOP.
Police said they dont yet know the motive for the shooting, however, they said that moments after the shooting, he pointed a handgun at the building manager at the nearby Arkansas Baptist headquarters and reportedly said, I lost my job.
Made his fortune off of spectrum auctions after being an aide on the Hill. Liberal dem from northern VA, previous Gov. and running for the senate. They really want to capture Warner's senate seat and the state's electoral votes.
#1
He is an egomaniac. I predict that if he drops ordnance on OB that causes him to lose the election there will be real fireworks in the black community (e.g., Jesse, Wright).
#5
What do you get from a sausage grinder? Sausage. What do you get from an angry, racist, egotist who is pissed at "The One"? I donno, but it aint going to be pretty.
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/13/2008 10:41 Comments ||
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#6
Wright knows that Obama was in that church for 20 years, that Obama knew exactly what the message was, and that Obama lied in his public statements when he left the church. He probably had many personal conversations with Obama and Michelle.
Wright now knows that Obama was using him to build a base. Wright watched Obama turn on him when he was no longer useful.
Lastly, Wright almost certainly had expectations of influence and national exposure in an Obama administration. Those were dashed in a very cruel and public manner.
With Wright's ego "pissed off" is probably an understatement.
#7
I'd say someone doesn't like being tossed under the bus. Even if its only for 'political purposes'.
I don't think Obama 'used' Wright. I think Obama and Wright were thick as thieves. Wasn't the title of Obama's book a quote from Wright? Only when it was shown that Wright would cost Obama his dream (the Presidency) did Obama toss Wright under the Bus - which Wright didn't appreciate.
I have not doubt that if Obama were to win the Presidency him and Wright would be together again.
The Pakistan People's Party staged another "Go Musharraf Go" rally to urge the president to resign without any delay. The PPP Karachi East Chapter organized the rally that started from its office at Falak Naz Centre on Shahrah-e-Faisal. The PPP supporters blamed President Musharraf for the economic and political crisis in the country. They carried placards and banners inscribed with slogans against him and many of them put them up on their cars. Many displayed the banners on cars.
Zulfiqar Qaimkhani led the rally which was attended by Nafees Siddiqui, Faisal Raza Abidi and Ijaz Durrani who welcomed PPP workers at Bilawal House where the rally ended. "It is you who made the bad economic conditions worse and it is you who is responsible for the political crisis that put the country at stake," said Nafees Siddiqui speaking to the protestors. He said that the people had given a verdict against President Musharraf by defeating his party, the PML-Q, in the February elections.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
The PPP holds economic policy levers. Mushy is still supported on military issues and international relations. Resignation forces are only about 30% of the population. However, Karachi is mostly Sindhis; they are no fans of Punjabi rule.
President Pervez Musharraf has decided in principle to quit and a decision in this context will be announced by him on August 14, Independence Day, a senior Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid (PML-Q) leader confided to Daily Times.
It is learnt that if he resigns ahead of the impeachment the ruling coalition will give him safe passage.
One advice given to President Musharraf is to apologise to the people of Pakistan and the judiciary for sacking Iftikhar Chaudhry and the other judges and restore them all before quitting. Another advice to him is to restore the judges and say he will accept whatever judgment they give on the validity of his presidential election last November and the legitimacy of the Provisional Constitution Order. It is not known what decision he has taken in this regard.
It is understood that if he resigns, President Musharraf will remain in the Presidency for a while as allowed by law until he is able to shift to his newly built home in Chak Shahzad on the outskirts of Islamabad, and possibly leave the country a few weeks hence.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
Snatch & Snuff
Posted by: Boss Thravith3041 ||
08/13/2008 0:55 Comments ||
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The Pakistan People's Party-Sherpao (PPP-S) would support the ruling coalition's move to impeach President Musharraf, a party leader said on Tuesday. "We have decided to support the impeachment motion in the interest of democracy," Sikander Sherpao, a member of the NWFP Assembly and a key leader of the Sherpao party, told Geo News on Tuesday.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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President Pervez Musharraf will neither use Article 58(2b) nor will he step down, Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid (PML-Q) President Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain said on Tuesday.
He said that the ruling coalition was trying to pressurise Musharraf to tender resignation. "Reports about the president's impeachment are still reports. He is being pressurised to resign but he will not do so and will defend himself against the charges to be levelled against him," Shujaat said this while talking to reporters in Parliament House.
"Warm up the plane! Mauritania here we come!"
He said it was a constitutional right of the government to impeach the president and Musharraf had every right to defend himself.
Shujaat said the "allegations levelled by the coalition have not come out in open and any decision in this respect would be taken when the charge sheet is made public". He said, "We don't want to indulge in any number game. On the other hand horse trading from the government's side is reaching its peak."
Posted by: Fred ||
08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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President Pervez Musharraf has vowed to defend himself against the allegations the ruling coalition has made against him and has consulted his legal aides on suing Asif Zardari for accusing him of embezzling war on terror funds, Geo News host Kamran Khan said in his programme on Tuesday.
"Your scurrilous insinuations are actionable, you filthy cur! You take it back! Or I'll see you in court!""
Citing sources in the Presidency that he did not identify, Khan said the president appeared to be in high morale during a concert he arranged on his 65th birthday. Heads of the armed forces and ISI chief Nadeem Taj also attended the ceremony, he said.
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08/13/2008 00:00 ||
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A University of Texas professor alerted Ballantine Books this spring that a novel it planned to publish about a wife of the Prophet Muhammad contained historical inaccuracies, and she said the book might spark violent protests. Weeks later, Ballantine decided to cancel the book, which was scheduled to be published this week. Now the professor, Denise Spellberg, is at the center of a publishing controversy that has brought her a flood of hate mail.
In April, Spellberg, an associate professor in the Department of History and the Center for Middle Eastern Studies, was asked by Ballantine, a division of Random House, to write a promotional blurb for a forthcoming historical novel, "The Jewel of Medina," by Sherry Jones. The book is based on the life of Muhammad's young wife Aisha.
Spellberg is an expert on Aisha; her 1994 scholarly work, "Politics, Gender, & the Islamic Past: The Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr," was cited as a source by Jones on her Web site. But Spellberg was appalled by Jones' book. "The characterization of Aisha as a sexualized being, swinging a sword around and who taught others to use a weapon, was an egregious abuse of her life," she told the American-Statesman. (Spellberg allowed a Statesman editor to sit in her office and skim the manuscript.)
Spellberg, coincidentally, has a contract with Random House to write a nonfiction book titled "Thomas Jefferson's Quran." On April 30, she called her editor and recommended that "The Jewel of Medina" not be published. "Not just because of its potential to provoke violence," said Spellberg, who worried that a small minority of Muslims might respond violently to the book. "But also because, as a historian, I objected to the fact that it was a deliberately distorted view of an important female religious figure."
Spellberg also had her lawyer send a letter to Random House saying that she would sue the company if her name was used to promote the book. "My fear was that the author would invoke my name or scholarly work as her explanation for the historical sources she claimed underpinned her novel," Spellberg said. "I wanted to protect my professional reputation and my safety."
Jones, a journalist in Spokane, Wash., said that before Random House bought the novel and a sequel in 2007 for $100,000, it asked if there was "anything controversial" about the book. Jones recalled saying yes but said that "there wasn't anything in there that couldn't be found in one of the 29 nonfiction books I used for research."
On May 2, Jones learned that Random House was concerned that the book might offend Muslims. "I was told they wanted to delay publication until they checked with other scholars and some security people," she said. By that point, the controversy had grown. The same day that Spellberg called Random House, she also phoned Shahed Amanullah, the Austin-based editor of altmuslim.com who has been a guest lecturer in her class.
"He edits a Web site dedicated to reasonable discourse about controversial topics in the American Muslim community, and I wanted to bring this book to his attention because it was likely to become a topic of conversation," Spellberg said. She denied, as has been reported elsewhere, that she called to "warn" him about the book. "Warning is not what I was trying to do." Amanullah perceived the call otherwise, later describing her tone as "frantic." Spellberg admitted to being upset but said she was "breathless" because she was rushing to get to class at the time. Amanullah,who does not support the cancellation of the book, subsequently sent out an e-mail about the conversation that was posted on at least one Web site for Muslims.
On May 21, Jones learned that Random House was canceling the book. "I wanted to fight it, but Random House said they talked with three academics and had reviewed the security situation," Jones said. "They didn't give me specifics, other than to say their head of security said they shouldn't take the risk."
In a prepared statement, Random House said: "After sending out advance editions of the novel 'Jewel of Medina,' we received in response, from credible and unrelated sources, unsolicited cautionary advice not only that the publication of this book might be offensive to some in the Muslim community, but also that it could incite acts of violence by a small, radical segment. We felt an obligation to take these concerns very seriously. We consulted with security experts as well as with scholars of Islam, whom we asked to review the book and offer their assessments of potential reactions. We stand firmly by our responsibility to support our authors and the free discussion of ideas, even those that may be construed as offensive by some."
The news passed unnoticed by most until Aug. 6, when The Wall Street Journal published an opinion piece, "You Still Can't Write About Muhammad," criticizing the book's cancellation. "The series of events that torpedoed this novel are a window into how quickly fear stunts intelligent discourse about the Muslim world," wrote Asra Q. Nomani, an author who was also asked to write a blurb for "Jewel of Medina" and has since become a friend of Jones'.
Jones said she empathizes with Random House but said: "I do believe they would have published the book without (Spellberg's) phone call and a letter from her lawyer." Spellberg sees her role differently. "Random House invited me into the publishing process," she said. "They are a big corporation, and they made the decision to cancel the book, not me."
Since The Wall Street Journal article appeared, Spellberg said, she has received hate mail and been pilloried online. "They are calling me an opponent of free speech, saying I am a supporter of Muslim extremists," she said.
Spellberg noted that she teaches Salman Rushdie's controversial novel "The Satanic Verses" which in 1988 led the leader of Iran to issue a fatwa death order against Rushdie and sent him into hiding for several years because it offers a sophisticated lesson to her students. "While Rushdie covers much the same ground about Aisha as Jones does suggesting even that she had a dalliance in the desert the greater issue is that Rushdie questioned whether God spoke directly to the Prophet Muhammad," she said. "Rushdie can claim he was raising an existential, theological query, however impertinent. Jones' book is a mere burlesque."
Jones is now shopping "The Jewel of Medina" elsewhere. Publishers in Italy, Spain and Hungary have purchased rights, and she said her agent has received calls from interested parties.
As to the accusation that she has altered history to suit her fictional ends, Jones doesn't deny it. Her portrayal of Aisha as a sword fighter, for instance, has no basis in historical record. The same goes for her portrayal of Aisha's flirtation with another man: "With our bodies, we brushed each other lightly my breasts to his chest. ... An aroma like musk rose from his body. My moan of pleasure surprised me, luxuriant as the purr of a cat stretching in the sunlight."
Jones said her bending of historical accounts is "minor" and is the province of a novelist. "The sword Aisha wields is a metaphor for her strength," she said. "Aisha was a warrior in her own way, and just because the Hadith (the body of Islamic oral tradition) doesn't say she had a sword doesn't mean she couldn't have a sword. Is that a reason to kill the book because I put a sword in her hands? That's the fiction part."
"The question here really is about historical fiction is it so expansive that anything goes, even if it isnot true?" Spellberg asked. "If a book discusses Judeo-Christian history, people know the difference. In this case, Jones' book only works by taking advantage of people's ignorance." Spellberg cited the book's last page, in which Aisha is narrating: "My sword will serve you well in the jihad to come. Now I knew what Muhammad meant by 'an inner struggle.' On the very day of his death, jihad had already begun."
"It's incredibly inflammatory," Spellberg said. "At a time when many accept the stereotype that Muslims are violent because of their faith, the image of Aisha wielding a sword she never held in history would seem to promote that. If it's supposed to be a work of historical fiction, then shouldn't there be some history in it?"
#2
Sounds like your run-of-the-mill speicalist turned apologist because she fell in love with her subject (or was drawn to it because she already was one); I'm sure her upcoming "Thomas Jefferson's Quran" will be in the same vein - see, US history is heavily indebted to the marvelous muslim tradition? or something like that. Academics tools.
It wouldn't surprise me if Thomas Jefferson had read and even owned a copy of the Quran. He was an educated man, after all. It would be a mistake to take that as an endorsement though. Given his statement that "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man", I suspect he was quite appalled by the contents.
#5
And to a certain degree, Ms. Spellberg could feel quite proprietary about Aisha, could feel subconsciously that she "owns" the character. She probably has her own visualization of what Aisha was like... and feels pretty threatened by someone elses' very different visualization. And it's exacerbated since one author is a "serious" academic and the other is a moonlighting reporter who has written a historical bodice-ripper. (Or burka-ripper, in this case.)
I ran into this same kind of hostility with "To Truckee's Trail" when I contacted a certain historian who is about the only other person this century who has done something focusing on the Stephens-Townsend Party. I got a very strange vibe from him, a distinct feeling of personal hostility because I had dared to tresspass on a subject and characters that he had thought of as exclusively his "own". Thank god I wasn't asking him to blurb or review!
In any case, there won't be as tenth of the readers for "T.J.s Quran" as there will be for "The Jewel of Medina". Ms. Jones will chortle all the way to the bank, and Ms. Spellberg will hug her academic credentials to her and feel smug and superior.
#6
It's interesting to see the different cultures in academic research. In technical areasthere's certainly caution about other people stealing ideas but because change is rapid and many breakthroughs are presented at conferences first, many researchers are pretty open to questions.
In history OTOH I gather it's the practice to publish journal articles that might take 2-3 years each to prepare. Rather than being part of a rapid give and take, historians are expected to publish a strongly-vetted paper which covers every applicable datum and addresses any objections or other interpretations in depth.
That's not a defense of Spellberg, but it might explain why her first response would be to target any inaccuracies in the novel.
#10
"While Rushdie covers much the same ground about Aisha as Jones does -- suggesting even that she had a dalliance in the desert -- the greater issue is that Rushdie questioned whether God spoke directly to the Prophet Muhammad," she said. "Rushdie can claim he was raising an existential, theological query, however impertinent. Jones' book is a mere burlesque."
Because, as we all know, only intellectually stimulating speech is protected by the 1st Amendment.
Posted by: Rob Crawford ||
08/13/2008 11:33 Comments ||
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#11
er, that was pretty common practice where and when TJ lived. Im not a TJ worshipper , but the application to him of anachronistic standards is not something I have much patience with.
Also of course his ownership of a Koran had nothing to do with being converted to Islam - he had no particular truck with revelation in general. It was simply part of his broad intellectual curiosity about the world. A curiosity that he left as a legacy to our country, and that one hopes we can keep, as its one of our greatest strengths.
#12
Jefferson also had no qualms taking scissors to the Christian Gospels to create a no-miracles-are--possible version for personal consumption. it was reduced in size, but not by much. One may suppose He did the same with the Koran.
One wonders how much he kept and how much he cut.
Somebody alert Monticello if he did: his grave is in grave danger.
#14
My understanding is he got his Koran after talking with the Bey of Algiers, or some such personage, while an ambassador for the U.S. And as a result of his personal experience and reading, once president he sent the U.S. Marines to fix the Muslim white slavery problem.
Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled exclusively by living brain tissue. Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive grey matter was designed at the University of Reading by scientists who unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday...
Posted by: abu Chuck al Ameriki ||
08/13/2008 17:58 Comments ||
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#2
I don't know why the fuck not. Drive from Tucson to Durango or San Carlos, it's nothing but factories from start to finish. Drive from TJ to Ensenidas, and the same. Drive to the Mexican Riviera and see the ports that will replace ours once we get the Texas Corridor done. But you don't have to worry unless you work for a living.
#4
My bood pressure rose the other day when I personally saw SONORA (Mexican) license plates parked in front of Tucson Branch of Dept. of Economic Security - said agency in charge of Food Stamps and Health Care. Additionally, schools where I have taught often have children delivered in Mexican plated cars...the local school system feels it is politically incorrect to ask where a student is from...
#5
Many of the illegals in my area have been in the construction industry and have been moving back because of the construction boom going on along Mexico's Pacific coast.
U.S. oil demand during the first half of 2008 fell by an average 800,000 barrels per day (bpd) compared with the same period a year ago, the biggest volume decline in 26 years, the Energy Information Administration said on Tuesday.
In its latest monthly energy forecast, the EIA said the huge drop in demand was due to slower U.S. economic growth and the impact of high petroleum prices. The drop in U.S. oil demand helped offset a 1.3-million bpd increase in petroleum consumption in nonindustrial countries during the first half of the year. As a result, preliminary data shows that global oil consumption rose by 500,000 bpd in the six-month period, the EIA said.
The Energy Department's analytical arm sees continued falling oil demand, and for the first time is predicting that U.S. petroleum consumption in 2009 will be lower than this year, which would mark a drop in annual demand for three years straight.
#1
That drop represents 15% of the oil we pump in the US. We are making our choices.
Then there is the nutso forecast that offshore oil production could only produce an additional 200,000 barrels per day by 2030. That's equivalent to only a 4% increase in US production over 20 years.
They'll probably get that much increase out of North Dakota alone in less than five years.
Congress, get out of the way while our economy works all the different combinations of conservation, oil production, and alternative energy sources at once.
#3
ION CNN this AM > Iff I heard it correctly, RUSSO-GEORGIAN CONFLICT may had stopped OVER ONE MILYUHN BARRELS??? OF OIL FROM REACHING US-WESTERN MARKETS VIA GEORGIA-BASED OIL PIPELINE, BUT DOES NOT APPEAR AT THIS TIME TO HAVE HAD ANY SERIOUS EFFECT ON OIL/GAS PRICES???
#4
Yep, Joe, no serious impact. Whether it is attributable to a sheer luck of a chain of coincidences or careful management behind scenes... or a combination of both thereof...
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
NOUAKCHOTT, Mauritania (AP) - The military junta that overthrew Mauritania's government last week adopted a law Tuesday transferring the power of the presidency to the head of the junta.
HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) - Party officials close to Zimbabwe's power-sharing talks say President Robert Mugabe has agreed to a power-sharing plan with a breakaway opposition faction. They say Arthur Mutambara, who heads a splinter group of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change, has agreed to a power-sharing accord with Zimbabwe's president. No further details are available.
The Pakistan People's Party staged another "Go Musharraf Go" rally to urge the president to resign without any delay. The PPP Karachi East Chapter organized the rally that started from its office at Falak Naz Centre on Shahrah-e-Faisal. The PPP supporters blamed President Musharraf for the economic and political crisis in the country. They carried placards and banners inscribed with slogans against him and many of them put them up on their cars. Many displayed the banners on cars. 
President Pervez Musharraf has decided in principle to quit and a decision in this context will be announced by him on August 14, Independence Day, a senior Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid (PML-Q) leader confided to Daily Times. 
U.S. oil demand during the first half of 2008 fell by an average 800,000 barrels per day (bpd) compared with the same period a year ago, the biggest volume decline in 26 years, the Energy Information Administration said on Tuesday. 
