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| Europe |
| Greek Villagers try to block Athens mosque |
| 2003-09-16 |
| EFL: It was meant to showcase Athens as a modern, multi-ethnic city in the year that it stages the Olympic Games. Instead, a plan to erect the first mosque serving the capital since the end of Ottoman rule has unleashed a row pitting the reform-minded government against the Greek Orthodox Church. The rumpus has highlighted the fact that Athens is the sole EU capital without a proper Muslim Now as construction workers prepare to move in, the people of Peania, which lies near the new Athens international airport, 12 miles from the capital’s centre, have stepped up a campaign to stop their area being graced with a giant dome and minaret. Because of its proximity to the new airport, Peania was chosen as the ideal site for the mosque. Insert your own aiport mosque joke here. "There are no Muslims in our area. If it goes ahead, residents will react very badly," the mayor, Paraskevas Papacostopoulos, warned. "We will not be able to control them." Cue the pitchforks and torches! Greece’s Socialist government had hoped that the multimillion-pound mosque, which is being funded by Saudi Arabia’s King Fahd, who else? would be completed in time for Muslim athletes and spectators to use during the 2004 Olympics. The opponents blame 500 years of Ottoman Turkish rule for the anti-Muslim sentiment. Good morning, Murat. Last week, the Orthodox Church stepped into the fray. It urged the government to change the proposed mosque site, claiming it would give visitors the wrong impression about predominantly Christian Greece. Even worse was the government’s intention to erect an Islamic study centre alongside the mosque. "Its existence contains dangers which are known from similar centres in other European countries," the archbishop wrote in a veiled reference to Islamic terrorism. The archbishop has been paying attention. |
| Posted by:Steve |
| #33 "...whether churches will be built in Saudi Arabia or not is quite beside the question... Saudi Arabia's attitude shouldn't be our role-model..." That's where you're being relativistic, Aris. As I and others have pointed out, this is a mosque built by a Saudi, in a non-Muslim country when, hypocritically, that same Saudi does not permit the building of non-Muslim places of worship, including those of the predominant Greek religion, in his own country. That is a quite blatant double-standard, and ignoring that important factor is what makes you a moral relativist. It is not "quite beside the question", at all. If the mosque was being built by local Muslims using their own funds, I wouldn't have any problem with it, but this will be as much a symbol as a place of worship. And the symbolism will be the glory of King Saud the Intolerant. What you are saying is that Greek attitude towards the King of Saudi should not be affected by his hypocrisy. That you should do as he wishes without expecting any concessions on his part, in other words unilateral standards of behaviour rather than bilateral standards. Would you object to TGA's scenario of German neo-Nazis building a shrine in Athens? Would you be happy if Kim Il Sung gave millions of Euros to build a giant "Kim's Proselytizing School of Communism and Juche" in Piraeus, to cater for the Greek communist community, without expecting something similar in return? American Airlines using your airport but no Greek carriers allowed to use American airports? PS I'm glad to hear you've got yourselves a new airport. From what I remember, touching down at the old one felt like landing on a grass strip. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-9-17 5:55:54 AM |
| #32 "Aris, how is expecting and tolerating different standards of behaviour in any way "absolutist"? " You mean the way I think that freedom of religion should be absolute? Or that human rights aren't a matter of intergovernmental agreement but must be respected even if the whole world says otherwise? "Either you believe there are basic standards of morality that should be commonly respected, " Yes. That's what I've been consistently saying, isn't it? I'm getting the impression of trolling from you, for I certainly can't understand where you are coming from, and in what way do you claim I've shown myself to be morally "relativist". "My definition of "absolute" is multilateral, not unilateral. " An I can't figure this sentence out at all. If morality is absolute, then neither the word "multilateral" nor the word "unilateral" applies to it. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-17 3:27:03 AM |
| #31 However, in practice Bulldog, I ain't seen an Anglican Chucrch--or St Mary of the Sands Cathedral going up in Saudi |
| Posted by: Not Mike Moore 2003-9-16 10:22:32 PM |
| #30 ...My definition of "absolute" is multilateral, not unilateral. Your absolutism is akin to christian evangelism. Mine is humanistic. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-9-16 9:29:18 PM |
| #29 Aris, how is expecting and tolerating different standards of behaviour in any way "absolutist"? Either you believe there are basic standards of morality that should be commonly respected, or there are only relativistic standards which vary depending on the culture, nationality or other differentiating characteristic of another individual or group. Obviously our opinion of what constitutes "moral relativism" is totally different. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-9-16 9:22:50 PM |
| #28 I was referring to the financing, Aris, not to the building. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2003-9-16 8:45:58 PM |
| #27 What in the...?? No, I'm a moral absolutist, that's why I'm saying human rights aren't a matter of reciprocation. It's the relativists who see this as a matter of reciprocation. Greece should let the mosque be built regardless of what Saudi Arabia or Turkey or any other muslim country is doing. Likewise Saudi Arabia should allow the building of christian churches even if the whole Christian world was persecuting Muslims right and left. (As had happened during the Middle-ages, when the Islamic world was more tolerant of Christians than the Christian world was of Muslims) It's the people here who said that the mosque should be allowed to be built *only if* Saudi Arabia does that and that in return, who are the moral relativists in this case. I've always been a moral absolutist instead. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-16 8:37:15 PM |
| #26 "I've never seen human rights as a matter of reciprocation." So you're a moral relativist then, Aris? |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-9-16 8:03:14 PM |
| #25 I think it's great that Greece wants to build a mosque in Athens. I also think that the Saudi's in turn should build a Greek Orthadox church in Riyadh as a sign of religious tolerance and friendship. You could build them brick for brick, until both are done. Oh, wait...it says here in the Koran "Don't befriend Jews or Christians." Sorry no deal Greece. Just do our bidding instead, like good little (future) converts. India already tried that and the Saudi's said "Go burn in hell, you infidels." Religious freedom and tolerance is a wonderful thing. (To muslims, these only apply if your one of them.) Always good to see Satan opening up a new soapbox in a town near you and not me. |
| Posted by: Paul 2003-9-16 7:37:15 PM |
| #24 Maybe those Greeks don't, I wouldn't know. But how do you feel about it, Aris? What if the money came from Bin Laden? |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2003-9-16 7:33:09 PM |
| #23 TGA> Arabs have been distant enough from Greece, that there's no special enmity or hostility against them from the Greek public. I really don't think that the Greeks protesting this care one bit where the money is coming from. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-16 7:27:03 PM |
| #22 JFM> I think that your opinions about Greek feelings against the Turks aren't as up-to-date or insightful as you seem to think they are. For starters the things that happened during the Ottoman occupation are hardly anyone's concern anymore IMO (you don't see many people being hostile to Germany or Italy either for their WW2 aggression) -- it's not the age-old but rather the *lingering* wounds that mainly harm relationships between Greece and Turkey -- wounds like Cyprus. If Cyprus was to heal then the century-old hurts would eventually be left by the wayside. And you misinterpret Greek feelings on another respect as well: In your belief that Greeks hostile to Turkey would have any love *at all* for the Kemalists or indeed prefer them any to the Islamists. Kemal is appreciated by those who care about whether Turkey is part of the West or of the East, of Europe or of the Islamist Arab world. But the Greece-Turkey dispute was never concerned with that --- after all it was Kemalist generals, not Islamofascists, that invaded Cyprus. It's the Kemalist Turkey that Greece has long feared. USA fears the Islamist Turkey because Kemalist Turkey is *its* ally. But why would Greece care about that? If anything I've heard some Greek people state outright that they'd prefer an Islamist Turkey as such a one would no longer have an alliance with the West to profit from. Bulldog> Greece no longer has a King. There does exist a funny guy running around Europe proclaiming himself to be our king, but he's quite quite ignorable. ^_^ And I've never seen human rights as a matter of reciprocation. The Greek state has retained an authority to dispense permits for places of worship to function, but consistently denied permit for a mosque in Attica -- I think that to be a violation of freedom of religion. And it's time this matter be rectified, and whether churches will be built in Saudi Arabia or not is quite beside the question... Saudi Arabia's attitude shouldn't be our role-model... |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-16 7:21:58 PM |
| #21 Excellent posts Bulldog and TGA--well put! |
| Posted by: Flaming Sword 2003-9-16 7:15:42 PM |
| #20 I was going to post the same thing! Maybe the Greek villagers would be less suspicious if all the devout muslims of Greece would gather enough of their own money to build a mosque? (Just leave out the golden minarets maybe.) Taking money from a guy who prohibits even the use of bibles in his country, doesn't let a kaffir enter the "holy cities" and preaches a medieval (if not stone age) form of Islam that denies women the most basic rights... you get the idea? How about German neo-nazis financing a German "church" in Athens? |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2003-9-16 7:05:41 PM |
| #19 "...the multimillion-pound mosque, which is being funded by Saudi Arabia’s King Fahd." Perhaps when the honour is reciprocated, I'll see this as more than religious imperialism. (OK, it doesn't have to be the King of Greece, Greek tax funds will do, paying Saudis to build a cathedral in Riyadh.) (If you follow the money, this is Western cash paying for a mosque in Athens.) I'm all for religious tolerance, though I'm not religious myself. But if the King of Saud thinks he can build mosques, with the small change from down the back of his sofa, in kafir countries without reciprocation, then I'm opposed to it. This is not freedom of religion. It's foreign cultural imperialism. And that's a bad thing, right? |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2003-9-16 6:53:57 PM |
| #18 All of this without mentionning that every fifth child in a Grek house was rapted and enslaved: the boys became Jenizers (the elite corps of the Turkish army) I BELIEVE you mean Janisars, JFM. They were yet another form of dhimmitude, a sort of tax. The first units were formed from war captives and slaves. Later units were contructed from children who were taken from Christian and Jewish parents at birth, then raised to be loyal, unquestioning warriors for the state. Janissaries trained under strict discipline with hard labour and in practically monastic conditions in acemi oglan schools, where they were expected to remain celibate and were at least encouraged to convert to Islam. Most did. For all practical purposes, janissaries belonged to the sultan. Unlike free Muslims, they were expressly forbidden to wear beards, only a moustache. Janissaries were taught to consider the corps as their home and family and the sultan as their de facto father. Only those who proved strong enough earned the rank of a true janissary at the age of 24 - 25. The regiment inherited the property of dead janissaries. More on this can be found here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary An interesting read, and one that Murat might find fascinating. Aris too. ^_^ Ed. |
| Posted by: Ed Becerra 2003-9-16 5:19:10 PM |
| #17 It looks to me like the Greeks are aware that it is good to have some type of place of worship for the Moslem minority. Now they ae engaged in the NIMBY (not in my backyard) process. Doesn't seem that different from America. For example, a PBS station run by a liberal Rockefeller fought hard to keep a shelter from being erected in the vicinity of the station. The purpose of the shelter was to protect illegals from the rain while they were queuing for daily employment. The Rockefellers wanted desent conditions for illegal work seekers; they just wanted the shelter someplace away from where they worked. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2003-9-16 4:49:45 PM |
| #16 Mr Steve White You have no idea of what happenned during Turkish occupation of the Balkans: from the massacres prepetrated by the Turkisk fleet in 157x (the one who was anihilated at Lepanto), to the ones during the liberation of Greece. All of this without mentionning that every fifth child in a Grek house was rapted and enslaved: the boys became Jenizers (the elite corps of the Turkish army) and the girls, I think you guess. They also remember what the SS Hanschar division and other Muslim units did to their brothers in religion (ie the Serbs) during WWII.
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| Posted by: JFM 2003-9-16 4:33:26 PM |
| #15 My whole point is that western countries allow freedom of religion (even despite opposition in some cases). However, freedom of religion in Islamic countries is represented by the "dhimmi" - whereby Christians and Jews have limited rights. Muslims are quick to whine about their rights in western countries, but don't allow others the same rights. |
| Posted by: Spot 2003-9-16 4:30:18 PM |
| #14 I'm an American not a Greek so it's not my place to say what Athens should or shouldn't do, but I'll say that Aris and Murat are both right (what am I saying????). There shouldn't be a problem with any house of worship in any nation. Building a mosque in Athens is proper, as should be building a Baptist church in Riyadh. I think we'll see the mosque in Athens first. As far as potential criminal activity goes, that's easily solved: proper police enforcement and a no-nonsense attitude. |
| Posted by: Steve White 2003-9-16 4:04:47 PM |
| #13 Give it a rest Dcr, I'd be all for allocating mosques in the EXACT ratio in which Christian/Jewish/Hindu temples appear in Muslim controlled countries. |
| Posted by: Flaming Sword 2003-9-16 4:03:54 PM |
| #12 depends on whether you consider it a religion, a cult, a political party, or one big f*ed up amalgam of the three. |
| Posted by: BH 2003-9-16 4:00:54 PM |
| #11 I'm gunna side with Aris on this one. freedom of religion. It's an American Ideal. some times I wonder about you guys Should not abandon the American Way(TM) just because you are scared. if you cant handle American liberty & Ideals and the dangers that come with it then live somewhere else and stop calling yourselves americans. hope yer just being emotional/reactive (as I obviously am being in this post) I would kinda like to think of you guys as somthing OTHER than another gutless waste of life out to steal people’s rights. |
| Posted by: Dcreeper 2003-9-16 3:44:12 PM |
| #10 "There are no Muslims in our area. If it goes ahead, residents will react very badly," the mayor, Paraskevas Papacostopoulos, warned. "We will not be able to control them." Well, won't that be a switch... |
| Posted by: tu3031 2003-9-16 3:21:59 PM |
| #9 There may not be many Muslims in that particular suburb (I wouldn't know of so specific demographics) but there are a lot of Muslims in the wider Athens metropolitan area. Mostly Albanians, as I said. Freedom of religion is a big issue in this as no permits are given for mosques in the center of the city, and only now, with the olympics, the government decided to let erect a mosque. Decided to erect it in the middle of nowhere of course, where it'd be difficult for any actual muslims living in the city to visit. And as you can see some people want to stop even this tiny concession to freedom of religion. They claim the problem is the location but they don't actually suggest any other *better* location, do they now? That's why I accuse them of hypocricy. They don't actually want to let *any* mosque be built, anywhere. Anonymous> You'll find that most Greeks can easily distinguish between different kinds of muslims when they're interested in doing so. They've had no problem distinguishing between Kurds and Turks for example. Or Palestinians and Turks. Don't think xenophobia and bigotry is always based on ignorance. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-16 2:06:41 PM |
| #8 Aris are you saying that there are a lot of Moslems in the town in question and mayor Paraskevas Papacostopoulos is lying? If there are no moslems and the mosque is being built for foriegn atheletes is hardly a religious freedom issue. Temporary facilities can be made. |
| Posted by: Yank 2003-9-16 1:45:14 PM |
| #7 The Greeks hate the "Turks". And they consider most muslims "Turks". It does stem from 500 years of Ottoman rule and the repercussions from several failed rebellions against the "Turks". |
| Posted by: Anonymous 2003-9-16 1:25:54 PM |
| #6 well Aris, I'm sure that most Mosques are not hot beds of terrorism, weapons storage centers, pulpits of hate and dissension, and communications centers for non-assimilating muslim ghettos, but.... I also don't think I've seen any of those activities in the news in Christian, Jewish, Orthodox, Hindu, etc. religious centers either. I'd oppose it on principal if there's been any of the usual muslim mischief in the area. But hey, I guess that's my fault, profiling and all... |
| Posted by: Frank G 2003-9-16 1:03:51 PM |
| #5 There are dozens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) of Muslims in Athens. And they're not mostly Turkish, but mostly Albanian instead. The rest of the immigrants are again not mostly Turkish, but rather Kurdish or Arab. So, talks about the Turkish occupation (or the churches in Istanbul or whatever) are one way or another irrelevant. But even if the Muslims here had indeed been mostly Turkish, it wouldn't matter. It's a matter of freedom of religion that these people should finally get the chance to build a mosque in Attica, a freedom being denied them for ages now. The Orthodox Church has been consistently disgusting in its opposition to the mosque (and hypocritical in claiming it's its *location* that bothers it -- they don't want a mosque at all in reality) the same way it has been consistently disgusting in pretty much its entire politics. And as for that disgusting mayor and the "would not be able to control them" excuse, have money from the city vaults (and/or his personal paycheck) be used to repair every single attack or vandalism commited by hooligans against the mosque. And have the mone be used to hire guards to protect the faithful worshipping there from all that "uncontrollable" barbaric citizenry. I'm sure he'll soon discover he can after all indeed control them. And Spot, I want Greece to emulate the better countries, not the worse ones. What Turkey does is irrelevant. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-16 12:01:06 PM |
| #4 Perhaps the Islamic atheltes could just go there and worship at Hagia Sophia in Constantinople. |
| Posted by: Yank 2003-9-16 11:27:39 AM |
| #3 For every new mosque in Athens, a new church in |
| Posted by: Spot 2003-9-16 10:34:42 AM |
| #2 Hello Steve I understand you like to hear my opinion here while I think you should ask Aris first as it is more of his concern. That said I can give you my opinion, it is up to the Greek government whether they want to build a mosque or not. My personal opinion is that a mosque in Athens would be good, because nowadays you have a concentration of every religion in the metropolises. I can’t believe that there are no Muslims in a metropolis like Athens where you can find people of every nationality. My personal opinion is that it is and enriching to possess mosques, churches, synagogues and budha temples in a metropolis, at least I am happy to have them in Istanbul. I think the average Greek sees a mosque more as a sign of gesture or present to the Turks and oppose it, while in fact it is an obtainment that serves their own city. I like to hear Aris his opinion. |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-9-16 10:33:09 AM |
| #1 Please... give them anything they want, and maybe they won't get angry with us. Please, we don't want trouble. |
| Posted by: BH 2003-9-16 10:30:14 AM |