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| Vet Says Kerry Should Have Been Relieved in Viet Nam |
| 2004-02-20 |
| Mildly edited for length Here are my problems and suspicions:
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| Posted by:badanov |
| #21 #8 CyberSarge He was an officer who chose to leave his men fighting in Vietnam eight months before his tour was done. That's pretty damming. |
| Posted by: Sorge 2004-2-20 8:43:23 PM |
| #20 Shipman, I like Bob the man. Politically, I never understood where Bob's bedrock was. I define bedrock as principles that will not be surrendered or compromised. I try to stay away from presidential candidates that appear to me to be wishy-washy. As a man, I trust Bob Dole's integrity. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-2-20 1:45:11 PM |
| #19 If I remember correctly. Most medals and awards went to the 'Brown Water Navy' during Vietnam. I guess 'Awards & Decs' was having a slow month back then! |
| Posted by: Jack Deth 2004-2-20 1:12:14 PM |
| #18 What's your beef with the Bobster? You guys have very similar senses of hourmor. Bob Dole on seeing former Presidents Ford, Carter and Nixon together at a funeral... "Look there's hear no evil, speak no evil and evil" |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-2-20 12:50:30 PM |
| #17 While I agree with Cyber Sarge that both Kerry and Bush's service record 30+ years ago is not relevant, I am confident that someone is going through Kerry's record with a fine tooth comb. If there is something real there it will come out. I am surprised that Ed Gillespie did not ask Kerry to release his service records when Bush released his. Regardless, Kerry has enough of a record since he left VN that should torpedo any national security credentials he might present. He is a socialist that has a record of blaming America first. Not who we need in a time of war. |
| Posted by: remote man 2004-2-20 12:48:19 PM |
| #16 Snellenr, Kerry's direct superior would have drafted the justifications for the awards for approval by higher authority - depending on the award an admiral, Secnav, congress or the President. He was the only officer present so he probably drafted and submitted the justification. I would think that his story would have been corroborated by his crew. Personally, I think Kerry must have done something good over there. That one guy in Iowa came forward and said that that Kerry saved his life. Also from a personal standpoint, USNA midshipmen treated and continue to treat combat veterans with highest honor. The stories about heroic VN Vets are venerated at all service academies. They are something for the rest of us non-heroes to aspire to and emulate. For instance, my interest in service began with hero-worship on my uncle who did several tours in Nam as a Ranger. That said, my problem with Kerry comes from his own charecterization of his service. While many of us would have been quite happy to get out of Nam in a minimum of time due to three flesh wounds, we are all regular people not heroes. His own charecterization of his service is inconsistent with the label of hero and more consistent with the rest of us. When we call a non-hero a hero, we cheapen the actions of guys like Bob Dole (who isn't my favorite guy but did rush a machinegun nest.) In our society this watering down of definitions, usually out of sensitivity to peoples feelings, undercuts the American idea. Heroism is yet another value under attack in our country. Signed Super Hose, non-hero I now await the written beating that will surely be delivered. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-2-20 11:49:32 AM |
| #15 Here's a link to the Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry website. They're organizing demonstrations against him, which of course, won't be reported by the press. |
| Posted by: Steve 2004-2-20 11:32:42 AM |
| #14 Normally, I'd give the servicemen the benefit of the doubt -- applies to both Bush & Kerry. Since the Democrats have decided to rake Bush over the coals, however, Kerry's military services deserves a similar analysis. As I understand it, his Silver Star was a single boat action. The commendation would have been written up from the after action report he wrote & the crew's testimony. Since the crew still reported to Kerry, and received Bronze Stars as well, I'll admit that I'm from Missouri when it comes down to whether he and his crew ran a scam. At the time, I imagine Zumwalt (and Nixon, on down) needed some heroes to counteract what was happening at home. Giving Kerry & his crew medals was one way to do that (especially if they didn't suspect Kerry's ambition and future direction). Not a knock on them, just real-life politics... All that said, I want to see the full details of Kerry's service receive the same kind of analysis that Bush's has had. What were the wounds he received, and was there any confirming evidence that they were combat related? What was the story behind his medals, and was there any corroboration (sp?) of the actions? Who wrote the commendation, and did he personally witness the actions? etc. I can't imagine the servicepeople reading this being especially happy with my skepticism... just understand that it's a direct result of what Kerry et al. have made Bush endure -- nothing more. |
| Posted by: snellenr 2004-2-20 10:27:26 AM |
| #13 Couple of points. (1) I think Kerry joined small boats because that's what his hero JFK did. I doubt there was much more to the decision than that. (2) I sure as hell would have gotten out of Nam if I'd gotten 3 purple hearts. The fault lies in the military that gave him those purple hearts if they were undeserved. Having said that I think his post-Vietnam record of anti-war slurs against vets and his anti-military votes in the Congress ensure he'll get slaughtered on the foreign policy side of things. |
| Posted by: ruprecht 2004-2-20 10:27:13 AM |
| #12 Buzzard -- 2 1/2 tours? Were you injured and had one cut short? Thanks for your service, by the way! |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-2-20 10:18:43 AM |
| #11 CS, I agree except for the fact that you need a crewmember to get a true account of what happened. Kerry has published his own account in his own words. I am only assuming that the autobiographical material (letters released to Atlantic Monthly that are in the process of being turned into a book) that he has released is truthful. I think he also wrote another book a while back about his war experience, but I don't care enough about him to wade through a copy of that cesspool. As for leaving VN early, he should be judged as an officer. There was one NFL player that died in VN. He was an officer. One of his corporals was interviewed for an NFL films piece on NFL players who served our country in different wars. The corporal said during the interview that he was wounded in the same fire-fight that the NFL guy - a back-up tackle for the Bills - dies in, but he kept on fighting because he noticed that his officer, a hero, was wounded worse then he himslef had been and yet continued to fight on. Eventually, a mortar round killed his Lt as he continued to fight on. The NFL did really pay much attention to his passing, but his new wife and unborn child were crushed. It would be interesting to know howmany decorations that guy received posthumously as compared to Kerry. My point being that Officers are supposed to lead. If he ran a scam to get out of service, at least a swift boat captain only sets a bad example for four guys. Its much worse when a destroyer's captain engages in hi-jinks prohibited under the UCMJ in front of the crew. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-2-20 9:37:06 AM |
| #10 2 points. I have listened for months about John Kerry being in Vietnam and all of his heroism. Question: Who put Kerry in for the Silvere Star and why did an Admiral (Zumwalt) award it?? Question 2: Having read a few excerpts of his book (while standing in Barnes and Nobel) he states that he was in charge of a boat that fired on a sampan with .50's. Passengers were blown overboard and presumed dead. By his own testimony and words before congress this probably constituted a war-crime Since he was in charge of the boat perhaps he should be charged??? Just as an aside, I served 2 1/2 tours and can honestly say that I never committed a war crime and never witnessed a war crime. |
| Posted by: buzzard 2004-2-20 9:35:47 AM |
| #9 Sarge you are right there is no first-account report on his actions or inactions. I would, however, like him to 'put-up' and open up his military record like Bush did. It would be interesting what his old CO, crewmates, and offical record have to say about him. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-2-20 9:26:06 AM |
| #8 I would treat this the same way I treated the AWOL claims. Everything this man said may be true but he was NOT on the boat with LTjg Kerry. So everything is pure speculation on his part. There are many the CLAIM Lt Bush was AWOL from the Guard, but nobody has any proof of that. If LTjg Kerry's crewmates came forward and said he endangered them, then we would have a story. If he wasn't on the boat then he is only offering his opinion. Don't give this story any more life than you would tha AWOL story, we are better than that. P.S. IF I had been in Vietnam and someone told me that I could go home eight months early, I would be be gone. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2004-2-20 8:46:10 AM |
| #7 As long as he doesn't get elected president, I am happy that Kerry's cowardly sham will be exposed for the world to see. Good. Typical "hero" of the left? No? |
| Posted by: B 2004-2-20 8:24:42 AM |
| #6 the press won't cover the fact he went home before his eot or that he was only there for 6 months because they are too busy trying to find out if Bush missed one day of reserve duty. |
| Posted by: B 2004-2-20 8:21:21 AM |
| #5 Bruce, I have seen officers and senior enlisted mildly reprimanded for derliction in getting themselves into trouble and then receiving hardware for the way they got themselves out of trouble. That was the way I always rationalized JFK's heroism - except that he never got any reprimand but that's OK because he had good hair. I read an excerpt from Kerry's book a while back in the Atlantic Monthly and was struck by affectation in the tone. My Dad has taught students at a midwestern prep schools for years, so I can recognized the viewpoint of a priviledged punk from the way he writes(or speaks to his ghost-writer). There is a tranparent element in that type of outlook that comes across as a "the war was staged to provide me with a backdrop for my heroism" attitude. I doubt that he was too happy on a destroyer bridge getting yelled at by a crotchety captain. I think that's why he decided on swift boats - they were rarely ever brought under fire until their mission was changed after he had already transferred over. Funny how he made his way so quickly stateside after the transfer. It makes me very uncomfortable to offer my views because I respect VN Vets and medals, in general. |
| Posted by: Super Hose 2004-2-20 8:20:24 AM |
| #4 Wow, I knew he went home before his eot but didn't know he wasn't even there 6 months. Sounds like Gore's gig. Though three purple hearts allowed servicemen the option of going home early. OTOH, 3 ph's in 4 months without missing any combat duty is pretty amazing, sounds like someone was trying to get the third in a hurry so they could go home. The facts of him jumping ashore to go after a VC are damning as well. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-2-20 8:16:06 AM |
| #3 None of this matters. The press won't cover any skepticism about Kerry's record during the war, and I suspect they'll actually support his acts afterwards. God knows I've seen enough on the left actually defending his lies to Congress AND the communist agitprop he based them on. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-2-20 7:58:51 AM |
| #2 Reminds me of a joke picture in MAD magazine. The picture shows JFK (Kennedy) addressing the Brigade of Midshipmen at Annapolis with a dialoge bubble having a mid say, "What's so great about him, he lost the PT boat?" In fact looking at the facts surrounding the loss of the PT it is interesting he did not get court martialed. Kerry's stunt sounds just like a stunt. Theoretically, the shock of a hit anywhere on the body from a .50 will kill. Kerry jumped ashore, shot a corpse, and grabbed a souvenir, for that he got a medal. The facts look more like cause for relief. |
| Posted by: Bruce 2004-2-20 7:48:10 AM |
| #1 Interesting Bad. I've been focusing on his activities after he came back which were deplorable. I just can't beleive this stuff isn't getting more press. The guy dishonored his uniform and his country, aided the enemy and is thumping his medals now. I wonder how many vets are gonna vote for this guy ?(not counting the AFLCIO - now there is an organization that doesn't care about anything else except thier fat wallets.) In any case this is one NAM vet who won't vote for him and will do his best to make sure people are aware of this Benedict Arnold. Where the hell did honor go? |
| Posted by: dataman1 2004-2-20 7:41:47 AM |