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| Great White North | |||
| The Underground Railroad For Deserters... | |||
| 2004-04-07 | |||
| Hat tip to Emperor Misha, The Hammer of The Idiotarians, orver at nicedoggie.net . Veterans should secure any loose objects within arms' reach before reading. Slightly EFL'd. Too young to buy a beer, but old enough to die for their country. This irony is not lost on Americans who have chosen to flee the US in search of refuge in Canada. For some it's a race against time before the army figures out they are gone. Trust me, they know. The story for many of these deserters is the same: a life in the military appeared to be a good choice at first, not to mention a quick and easy way to further their education. But few expected that they would be sent overseas in very hostile conditions such as Iraq. Never ceases to amaze me how these geniuses miss things like guns, uniforms, attacks on the US that leave thousands dead... Most who decide to run away do so because they don't want to end up dead or, if not killed by the enemy, then driven crazy and ultimately shooting themselves.
The first one being that there ARE no similarities one main difference is that those in the American military who are now AWOL are, in fact, volunteers. Even so, those seeking refuge in Canada still feel that they shouldn?t have to pay with their lives for making a mistake or, more precisely, their government's mistake. After 9/11 the number of volunteers for the American military rose substantially. Moreover, most American soldiers didn't have qualms about initially serving in Afghanistan. At the time, they felt that they were avenging an attack on their own country. However, with Iraq the situation is much different. Unlike Afghanistan, the resistance is much bigger. Also, while news from Afghanistan has more or less subsided, the Iraqi conflict lingers. Americans traditionally like their wars short and sweet; when they are long and drawn out, with more and more casualties and the prospect of defeat, as in Vietnam, American soldiers and the general public tend to revolt against their own government.
And trust me, deserters in military prisons tend to be the prom queens.. Given the deplorable state of US prisons, it's not something war resisters look forward to. For most, going to jail as a conscientious objector isn't even an option, especially at such a relatively young age. ..even though that is the one honorable and respected means of getting out of combat...oh wait, you really have to BE a concientous objector, not a coward. One they get to Canada, however, an American refugee's troubles aren't over. They are still considered illegal immigrants and don't have any legal status for being in Canada, which means legally they aren't allowed to work. Some of the lawyers representing Americans who have already escaped to freedom in Canada think that the chances of these refugees being able to stay is quite good, given the fact that Canadians don't like George Bush nor his war very much. Likewise, the political implications of sending back an American who has gone AWOL are great, for the Canadian government isn't going to be able to say the war is illegal and Canada won't support it, on the one hand, but Canada will send back to the US those who object to the war, on the other. To make matters worse, the new Canadian government of Paul Martin, unlike his predecessor Jean Chretien, has publicly stated its desire to change course and be more friendly with the US on foreign policy. This could mean that the young men and women who flee to Canada to escape military service in the US may be treated more harshly than in the past. ...Gee, what a frickin' shame.. In the end, it will take months or even years before a decision on a refugee's application is taken. And even after that, there are chances for an appeal, which would then extend their temporary status for a further several months or years. In other words, just like the bureaucracy back home, but with better beer... Ironically, bureaucratic red tape is a blessing in disguise: the entire process may be just long enough for a government to come into power in the US, one which will take back and pardon those who had fled their country for having followed their conscience. Over our dead bodies. | |||
| Posted by:Mike Kozlowski |
| #28 Two quick thoughts: 1. More Canadians came south to serve with US forces in VietNam than American scum ran north to avoid service. (A convention of Canadian VietNam vets will give you a hangover almost beyond imagining). 2. The US is unlikely to elect another president as pathetic as Jimmy Carter so any scum now fleeing north are unlikely to be pardoned in the lifetime of anyone now living. I, for one, have never forgiven those sanctimonius, slimy, pusillanimus pricks that deserted their country in time of war or Jimmy Carter who welcomed them back.. Someone else had to stand in harms way in place of everyone of those "men" who went to Canada/ |
| Posted by: RWV 2004-04-07 11:44:18 PM |
| #27 Is there nothing in life that can't be found in monty python Colonel Come in, what do you want? Private Watkins enters and salutes. Watkins I'd like to leave the army please, sir. Colonel Good heavens man, why? Watkins It's dangerous. Colonel What? Watkins There are people with guns out there, sir. Colonel What? Watkins Real guns, sir. Not toy ones, sir. Proper ones, sir. They've all got 'em. All of 'em, sir. And some of 'em have got tanks. Colonel Watkins, they are on our side. Watkins And grenades, sir. And machine guns, sir. So I'd like to leave, sir, before I get killed, please. Colonel Watkins, you've only been in the army a day. Watkins I know sir but people get killed, properly dead, sir, no barley cross fingers, sir. A bloke was telling me, if you're in the army and there's a war you have to go and fight. Colonel That's true. Watkins Well I mean, blimey, I mean if it was a big war somebody could be hurt. Colonel Watkins why did you join the army? Watkins For the water-skiing and for the travel, sir. And not for the killing, sir. I asked them to put it on my form, sir - no killing. Colonel Watkins are you a pacifist? Watkins No sir, I'm not a pacifist, sir. I'm a coward. |
| Posted by: bruce 2004-04-07 9:12:31 PM |
| #26 Does Canada have any laws about pissing in the gene pool? |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-04-07 7:57:06 PM |
| #25 Anon2U: Essentially, we can extradite people for something that is also a crime under their laws. Since Canada didn't have a draft in the late 60s, draft-dodging wasn't a crime, so they wouldn't extradite. Since they do have laws against desertion, they would extradite, if we wanted them back. |
| Posted by: Jackal 2004-04-07 6:37:49 PM |
| #24 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that early in the 90s, we signed an agreement w/Canada that they wouldn't take in deserters. |
| Posted by: Anonymous2U 2004-04-07 5:06:58 PM |
| #23 Most desertions I can speak of - only a handful - were guys who were shitbags anyhow and not missed when they left - had prior njp's and other discplinary problems. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 4:36:03 PM |
| #22 Yeah, had one guy in my unit in Germany desert on us. He went home on leave, found his girlfriend shacked up, fell apart and went home to his folks. Problem was his folks were living in British Columbia, Canada. Call us up and told us he wasn't coming back. Few months later he crossed the border and gave himself up. He was judged "unfit for service" and discharged. Funny thing, while waiting for paperwork to go through, they had him working at the AF JAG office. They were sorry to see him go, said he was a good worker. You just never know. |
| Posted by: Steve 2004-04-07 4:16:05 PM |
| #21 I've got a nephew that works for Air Force Recruiting Service in San Antonio. I asked him if there was a real problem with Air Force people deserting or going AWOL since Operation Iraqi Freedom. From what he can find out, there appear to be about twelve Air Force people who have deserted - gone AWOL for more than 30 days - in the last 18 months. According to his findings, those numbers are "about average", and that of those dozen people, "one will have died, and another hospitalized for drug, alcohol, or other related problems". It's not a scientific survey, but it does indicate there isn't a big problem. Tom says there hasn't been any significant change in recruiting goals, no changes in screening, or other changes that would indicate the need to address a problem such as mass AWOLs or desertions. My daughter's a senior in high school this year. Many of her classmates are gearing up to enter the military once they graduate in May. None of them are talking abut NOT fighting, so I guess that's a non-issue to them. Half or more want to join the Marines, the rest are divided among the other three services. Quite a few have already joined through delayed enlistment programs. I think this article is more an expression of wishful thinking than actually trying to report facts, and is pretty shoddy even at that. |
| Posted by: Old Patriot 2004-04-07 3:00:49 PM |
| #20 Too young to buy a beer, but old enough to die for their country. This line always cracks me up. Nobody ever tells these guys that an active-duty service member can go into a base club and order a beer, regardless of their age. |
| Posted by: BH 2004-04-07 10:50:46 AM |
| #19 WOW! You mean the Military is designed to fight? I glad I retired after 20 years and never knew that. Next you’ll tell me that fire burns, ice is cold, and water is wet. Scammers! IHO I would not want them back into my unit. The last thing I want when I go into battle is someone who doesn’t know what the military does. I would discharge them (OTH) and make them pay restitution for whatever benefits they received in the military (Medical, Dental, education). |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2004-04-07 10:46:03 AM |
| #18 Funny you should mention fried beaver tails. The man who started Hooker's Beaver Tails went to Canada in the '60s. Yes, he was an American draft dodger. I know this 'cause I once worked with his daughter. |
| Posted by: growler 2004-04-07 10:30:01 AM |
| #17 So, we should understand them because they tried to scam the Armed Forces of money and scholarship while not fulfilling their part of the contract? While we are at it why don't admire a guy who enlists as a fireman and then doesn't try to rescue the people trapped in a burning house? What of a cop who runs when there is a bank robbery? Of a lifesaver who won't go into water if it is under 20 C degrees? All of them admirable people to be set as examples. |
| Posted by: JFM 2004-04-07 10:02:38 AM |
| #16 tu3031, exactly, good point - this guy has to back up the story w/true facts or stfu. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 9:56:04 AM |
| #15 Like, how many, dooooood? 1, 10, 100? Let's have some statistics. Or is this your smug little primer for the coming deluge? |
| Posted by: tu3031 2004-04-07 9:38:21 AM |
| #14 This is the old "make Iraq into Vietnam" ploy again by the lefties. Problem was Vietnam was a conscript army wiht an arguably unfair draft. Makes you wonder why most of the calls to reinstate the draft come from the left, doesn't it? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 9:32:22 AM |
| #13 There's another way to get the government to help pay for your education: student loans. There are other means, too, like scholarships, grants, and--*gasp*--working! Expecting the military to pay for it without meeting the obligations you voluntarily accepted and swore to satisfy ain't the way. |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 9:30:35 AM |
| #12 This is the old "make Iraq into Vietnam" ploy again by the lefties. Problem was Vietnam was a conscript army wiht an arguably unfair draft. This fight isnt - its all volunteer, and the nation has been attacked. They VOLUNTARILY took a solemn oath to "Uphold and defend..." and "Obey the officers appointed..." These are just cowards. Oathbreakers. Desertion during war. Should be shot. If we ever get a president who gives blanket amnesty to anyone deserting like this, that president deserves to be impeached for violating his oath. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-04-07 9:26:28 AM |
| #11 This is a propaganda piece. I don't know of any deserters hopping to Canada. I would've heard about it if it were a problem. Desertion where I'm from is not even a thought. This author is obviously full of sh*t or drank one too many molsons. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 9:08:01 AM |
| #10 Danny Deever! Danny Deever! |
| Posted by: Chuck Simmins 2004-04-07 9:04:13 AM |
| #9 Americans rarely travel outside their own country When will Europeans grasp just how fricking BIG this country is? I mean, Christ, there's really no reason to travel outside of the US for most Americans. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 8:57:23 AM |
| #8 sorry to ramble on...but this is all so out of touch. I mean today we just think...let 'em go. Adios amigos. We're happy to rid you from our gene pool and we certainly don't want you polluting our fine military. Go...be gone. Spend the rest of your life justifying your cowardice .. it's your loss, not ours. The peace and love generation got old and not-sexy and seem today to be little more than spineless no-loads afraid of their own shadows... probably from smoking too much pot and causing a permanent loss to their grip on reality. You know times change - and these people are stuck in their own little world of flowers in their hair and bad poetry. The truth of the matter is that they never really were cool..they were just "in" during for a brief moment in history. Time marches on and these guys have been left so very way behind that the best we can do for them is pat them on the head and nod politely. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-07 8:50:26 AM |
| #7 thanks GK...your insight wasn't available before I made my second post. He's not very good at it, is he? |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-07 8:25:31 AM |
| #6 relax guys -I doubt there there are that many deserters - at least not many more than usual. Most guys today are itching to see some action. This is just propaganda - and I said above, sad and pathetic propaganda at that. Don't fall for it. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-07 8:23:30 AM |
| #5 this stuff is as bad as the stuff they write in NK. This is just one example of this German's anti-American hit pieces. Google "John Horvath" for more of the neo Lord HawHaw's propaganda. |
| Posted by: GK 2004-04-07 8:22:44 AM |
| #4 Sniff sniff..........You have them in every war. |
| Posted by: Bill Nelson 2004-04-07 8:19:42 AM |
| #3 this stuff is as bad as the stuff they write in NK. What did they do- roust out some old grey-haired pony hippie from his cabin in Big Sur where he has been without communications since 1975? Maybe they just can't find any young people interested in in writing this stuff and have to dig up the ones hoping to justify and relive their youth. I rate this sad and pathetic. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-07 8:13:37 AM |
| #2 Now we have second reason to shut down the border: First to keep the Islamo-facists out. Second to keep those who are unwilling to fullfill thier moral obligations in. |
| Posted by: Dragon Fly 2004-04-07 8:07:04 AM |
| #1 "...take back and pardon those who had fled their country for having followed their conscience." "Conscience," my ass. These people volunteered to serve in our armed forces, and their slinking away to Canada is motivated by nothing more noble than simple cowardice. They'll make great Canadians, and they can damn well stay there. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-04-07 8:02:27 AM |