EFL
MARK DAVIS: President Musharraf thanks very much for your time.
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: You’re welcome.
| "Wanna touch my turban? You can't!" |
MARK DAVIS: You are right in the middle of an assault on the tribal regions of Pakistan. It’s been fairly obvious for a couple of years that this region has almost become the terrorist capital of the world. Why has it taken you so long to act decisively there?
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: I wouldn’t call it the terrorist capital really.
| "Perhaps a major adminsitrative and banking center..." |
I think whatever is happening in Afghanistan is mainly happening from inside Afghanistan. It’s very clear. If you see where the operations are taking place, the vast majority is taking place in areas, which are not bordering Pakistan, inside Afghanistan I’m talking about.
| "Well, maybe they do border Pakistan, but not very close. Or we don't think of them as being very close..." |
However, yes, there are people here. We can’t really define whether this is. . . I mean I certainly am very clear that everything in Afghanistan is not happening from here, not even 50% of it is happening from this end.
| "But even if it's 90 percent of it, that's not all, so it's not our fault, is it?" |
But yes, they were here and we didn’t know. You see the issue is that they are not holding areas deployed as forces. They are hiding in various places, in valleys and hills.
| "That's an entirely different thing. I'm not sure how, but it is. Somebody told me it was, anyway. I think." |
MARK DAVIS: Well let’s talk about those early days, that’s quite interesting to me. After September 11, George Bush offered you a fairly stark ultimatum, either you abandon the Taliban and join with the US, or you would be effectively regarded as an enemy of America. Now that must have been a very difficult choice for you to make.
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Well, it was difficult certainly, the way things developed and all of a sudden you have to break off relations, but let me tell you it wasn’t all that difficult because we here in Pakistan, the Pakistan Government never was in favour of the Taliban way of governance.
| "We're more feudal brutality-oriented than religious brutality-oriented..." |
Nobody in Pakistan ever wanted Pakistan to be governed or Pakistan to have the perceptions of Islam as the Taliban in Afghanistan had.
| "Qazi did, of course. And Fazl. And Sami. And all those loons that flock to Jhang. And the Bugtis. But nobody of substance. Nobody in uniform, anyway. Hardly. Except for Hamid Gul. And Aslam Beg. And..." |
I am very clear on that.
| "At least I think I am..." |
Every government was in fact trying to moderate on the Taliban to leave extremism, to come to a moderate understanding or moderate view of Islam.
| "They just wouldn't listen, though. It's sad, really. They had such promise. And so many weapons. And they all had turbans..." |
MARK DAVIS: They never showed any sign that that was ever going to happen and that’s why Pakistan was so broadly criticised, that Pakistan had gave birth to the Taliban and that there was absolutely no ability for them to. . .
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: No, nobody, let me assure you I have frankly no love lost for the previous governments in the ’90s, but nobody gave birth to the Taliban, let me assure this thing.
| "The fact that they erupted out of Pak madrassahs and that many of them were Paks, that's just pure coincidence. Could happen to anybody..." |
They emerged out of the circumstances there. After the Soviets left, there was total chaos, breakdown of law and order.
| "So who better to govern than our own Pashtun hillbillies?" |
Every group, every tribe was fighting each other there was the Northern Alliance, Ahmad Shah Masood, there was the Hazaras, there were the Uzbeks, there was the Pashtun and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, and many others, they were all fighting among themselves, they were destroying the whole country.
| "I mean, Hek was the guy that rocketed Kabul and all, and the others were all allied against him, most of the time, but if they'd just surrendered, think of all the problems that could have been avoided..." |
In these circumstances, with all the atrocities committed by each one of them against each other, these people emerged, they emerged among themselves.
| "When you've got atrocities being committed left and right, who's gonna care about a few more, especially when the intentions are good and the perpetrators have turbabs?" |
But then they swept up Pakistan so fast, that any government in Pakistan had no other alternative being the only Pashtun representatives, and we have a Pashtun government, Pashtun population here to recognise that, because 90% of Afghanistan was held by them. How could Pakistan, how could any government in Pakistan ignore them?
| "I mean, it's not like we could have declared them bandit gangs and continued recognizing the Northern Alliance, like the rest of the world did..." |
MARK DAVIS: We’ll move on from the Taliban, but let’s look at the extremists within Pakistan, and this is of great concern to America, indeed the whole world. It seems that it’s a very dangerous balancing act, that you are having to engage in. If you don’t go in hard enough, if you like, against the extremist groups here, you are in danger of alienating America. If you do go in too hard, you are in danger of alienating your own Muslim support group here and possibly elements of the military. Is it possible to keep these two very contradictory forces happy?
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Yes, it’s very possible. Because there is this perception in one aspect of what you have said. Here, the extremists are not in the majority. Now I know what the magazines are writing, I know what they are thinking. I don’t at all accept this view. In Pakistan the majority is moderate, the majority is vastly with me.
| "That's why they spend so much time shooting at each other and planting bombs and raping their neighbords. Y'see, they only do it in moderation..." |
I know that, I know that 200%. If they were not with me, people would be out in the streets because all the extremists want me out. They would be out on the streets, nobody is out on the streets and I have been challenging them in my interviews to the local. . . come out, let me see what there is.
| "Where are the riots? Where are the fire-breathing mullahs? Are there no poor laws? Are the workhouses all full? |
MARK DAVIS: It’s a bit unfair, sir. They don’t have much of a chance to vote you out, do they? So it’s a bit hard to judge public sentiment on that one.
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: No, no, no. It’s absolutely clear on. . . . the people, the vast majority is satisfied with what is happening. They are in my favour.
| "I mean, the little people love me. Really. Take my word on this!" |
There is a very aggressive minority, now that minority is certainly aggressive, and there are terrorist elements in them. Now that is the danger, but that is not the vast majority. They cannot get rid of me or remove me to political power, political authority. Not at all. It is out of the question.
| "Unless they manage to kill me, of course..." |
They can, yes, they are trying to use terrorist means to eliminate me and with suicide attacks. Now that is the danger. So we should not confuse the issue.
This is a small minority who get involved with al-Qa’ida sponsorship, money being pumped in and they utilise these extremists to carry out extremist attacks. But if anyone thinks that vast population of Pakistan is extremist and they are against me, then they would be out on the streets, why are they not coming out?
| "NWFP, Balochistan, Punjab, those are only a small minority in this country! Karachi? A smidgeon! Less than a tenth of one percent!" |
MARK DAVIS: One of the groups you have banned is Lashkar-e-Tayiba. One of their graduates is of interest in Australia - Willie Brigitte was recently discovered in Australia, allegedly with plans to blow something up, again it’s widely believed and according to that ICG report, that Lashkar-e-Tayiba is still functioning in Pakistan. Now, you may say these groups aren’t threatening Pakistan, but they are threatening other countries. Is it acceptable that they can survive in any form?
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Lashkar-e-Tayiba has not been banned, this has not been banned. Lashkar-e-Tayiba is not threatening anybody. Who has told you that they are threatening anybody? It is Jaish-e-Muhammed which threatens and Jaish-e-Muhammed is banned.
| "There's a difference, see? And it's a very important difference: one group's got turbans, and the other... ummm... they've got turbans." |
MARK DAVIS: Willie Brigitte, who is now in French custody, allegedly had plans to. . .
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Who?
| "Who the hell are you? Have we been introduced?" |
MARK DAVIS: A man named Willie Brigitte, he’s now in French custody. He said he was trained by Lashkar-e-Tayiba in Pakistan, he was discovered in Australia, apparently with plans to blow something up. There’s another Australian, David Hicks, who is now in Guantanamo Bay. He trained with Lashkar-e-Tayiba. He says that he was given training by the Pakistani army in Kashmir. So these groups do seem to be growing rather beyond any Kashmiri or any Pakistani issues.
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: It is very clear as far as we are concerned. Let’s leave Kashmir aside. In Kashmir there is a freedom struggle going on and the people of Pakistan are emotionally involved with it.
| "Out of 90,000 dead, most of them are Paks. We've very distraught over that." |
This is a 50-year-old dispute and we better resolve it politically. Let’s leave that aside. We don’t think there is any terrorism going on there.
| "We call it Freedumb Fighting, you know..." |
Now if anybody is carrying out terrorism around the world, we certainly are against it and we would like to act against it.
| "We just don't consider what we do to be terrorism. It's... ummm... something else." |
Now the name that you are taking, frankly I don’t know about that.
| "And prob'ly don't want to." |
MARK DAVIS: I might just clarify that - it might be a pronunciation problem of mine - Lashkar-e-Tayiba - I mean this is not a banned group?
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: No, no, no, this is certainly not a banned group.
| "They're good friends of mine, in fact. Sturdy Freedumb Fighters, strong of arm! Fleet of foot! All around nice fellows, y'know?" |
MARK DAVIS: The American have just taken into custody a group of them in Iraq, outside of Baghdad, that they say, were operating. . .
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: No, I think we are mistaken there. I don’t think Lashkar-e-Tayiba has come out anywhere. That is not the reality, I don’t think so.
| "I mean, it might look like them, but it's prob'ly imposters. Maybe even Zionists. You know how they are." |
Maybe you are talking of Jaish-e-Muhammad, which is the main troublesome organisation which has been. . .
| "Are you rolling your eyes, Mr. Davis? You really do that quite well. Have you ever considered accepting the True Religion? You seem to have an aptitude for it..." |
MARK DAVIS: Let’s move on to Afghanistan, although we have discussed it earlier. Do you take any responsibility for the reported resurgence of Taliban in Afghanistan.
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Now where are they operating from? Let me tell you, most of them are operating from within Afghanistan.
| "Not very far within Afghanistan, of course, but on that side of the border. The fact that they have breakfast is Pakistan is purely coincidental." |
If I was to show you a map of all the operations that are going on, and we know that, they are inside of Afghanistan, well inside, out of our border, so this is a misperception, as if every Taliban is coming from Pakistan.
| "Maybe a few of them, perhaps. But certainly not many..." |
They are doing that inside Afghanistan themselves, and Americans know it by the way. Ask the US, ask General Labisset, he’ll tell you where they are operating from.
| "I know nothing! No-thing! Tell them, Hogan!" |
MARK DAVIS: ...I can’t have an interview with you without discussing the hot topic at the moment, which is the nuclear smuggling. In the current war on terror, America is being very kind, indeed tolerant of Pakistan, were you concerned that that relationship was going to snap when the news of the nuclear smuggling allegations came out?
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Again, there is a difference, let me tell you. I interact with the State Department, I interact with Secretary Colin Powell, or with President Bush, all the senators and the Congressmen who come here. They are very clear, they have always been clear, and we have always been onboard with all that we are doing, they have been clear, they have been convinced by us that these are individuals who have acted and not the government and the army.
| "No, no! Certainly not the government and the army! We'd never do anything remotely like that!" |
MARK DAVIS: Are these your lips, sir?
It is unfortunately the media, which tries that they are not convinced and they are under pressure, every time when I see Colin Powell, a lot of people think that he has come to pressurise me. He hasn’t come to pressurise me at all, he didn’t pressurise me at all. He is fully convinced that the government is not involved.
| "A remarkably easily convinced man, in fact, is Colin Powell. He has an aptitude for the True Religion, too, y'know? I've often seen him rolling his eyes, just like you are..." |
MARK DAVIS: Given the circumstances, shouldn’t the media be concerned? I mean, you refer to Dr Kahn as a hero, now given that is actions threatened the entire world, whatever America says, don’t you think you are being a little too kind to him?
PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Yes. Well here a lot of people say that because, yes, he has proliferated, there is no doubt in our minds, and we have found that, we have the evidence, right.
| "After all, the Americans gave us the evidence, you know. And the Brits. And the UN. And the Samoans. And some Equimeaux came by, and they had some folders, too..." |
So therefore he is a culprit, but however this was a very sensitive issue.
| "After all, he's our culprit. True, his actions could have resulted in nuclear holocaust such as the world never wanted to see, such as could possibly destroy the entire world, certainly would destroy civilization of we... ummm... you know it..." |
Its sensitivity is to the extent that he is a national hero, he is a national hero to anybody walking in the streets of Pakistan.
| "Even if we were all incinerated as a result of his actions, he'd still be a national hero..." |
You talk to anybody and you will find that he is a national hero. He is a symbol of the sovereignty of the state, a symbol of a person who has given us this nuclear power.
| "The fact that he stole the basic knowhow, that he lied, cheated, connived, and aided the enemies of the West, that's kinda Pakistan all over, isn't it? Brings a tear to my Islamic eye..." |
He’s a danger to the world, so he’s not a hero to anyone else. He might be. . . We have to tackle the international perspective and the national perspective. Therefore, you have to do a little bit of a balancing act here, which was required, and also there was in 1954, the US nuclear technology was passed to the Soviets by one Mr Robert Heinberger - that was the name I think - and nothing happened to him. He was left scot-free, he went into that detail also. In 2002, there was a Dr Lili who passed nuclear secrets to China and the Soviet Union, he was left scot-free. There were 60 charges against him. 59 were absolved and he didn’t get any punishment.
| "So we're just saving a bit of time and money by not even charging Abdul Qadeer Khan..." |
At the end of the interview, the President conferred with his staff and advised that Lashkar-e-Tayiba is a terrorist group and that it is banned in Pakistan.
| "Oh, yes. Them! Thought you were talking about somebody else of the same name. Yes, of course they're banned. Always have been. Always will be..." |
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