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| Iraq-Jordan | |
| Marines: Fallujah rebels must âsubmit or dieâ | |
| 2004-04-11 | |
| edited for brevity. Hundreds of reinforcements joined fellow Marines besieging Fallujah on Saturday, and the U.S. military said it would move to take the city if cease-fire talks fail. Fighting raged through the center of the country, killing 40 Iraqis and an American airman. Gunfire crackled in the city, even as Iraqi government negotiators met with Fallujah leaders to persuade them to hand over militants who killed and mutilated four Americans in here March 31. Insurgents offered to call a truce if U.S. troops leave Fallujah â a condition the Americans appeared unlikely to accept. Good. Nearly 60,000 Fallujah residents, about a third of the population, have fled over the past two days, a Marine commander said. âThe prospect of some city father walking in and making âJoe Jihadiâ give himself up are pretty slim,â said Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne, commander of the 1st Batallion, 5th Marine Regiment. He gets it, why doesnât the rest of the figure heads? âWhat is coming is the destruction of anti-coalition forces in Fallujah ... they have two choices: Submit or die,â he told reporters. Perfect language for the Arab mind to grasp.
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| Posted by:Jarhead |
| #23 if you say so. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-11 10:47:12 PM |
| #22 A ceasefire is a temporary thing by nature. Depends who is proposing it. It would be politically stupid for the coalition to ask for a cease-fire, then resume hostilities. So I assume the cease-fire is permanent. The outcome being resumption of the rule of law. I do not see "submitting" as the same thing as cease-fire, btw. Submitting means surrendering; cease-fire means going back to tending sheep, for now, ready to fight another day. I really don't understand why you're picking a fight here. Going back to what I said originally, "submit or die" means nothing if a cease-fire has been declared. Either there is a cease-fire, or there is not. Anyway, we're arguing about semantics here. The jihadis themselves will render this disagreement moot. Let's oblige them. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-04-11 10:43:31 PM |
| #21 Look raffy .... you aren't making any sense. A ceasefire is a temporary thing by nature. There has to be an OUTCOME from a ceasefire. It could be, I suppose, that the marines will just up and go home or that the bad guys will put down their arms and start tending to their sheep (ie: "submit") At some point, the ceasefire will end because the bad guys either 1. the marines go home (yeah right) 2. the bad guys submit... or 3. they die Perhaps you could explain to me other outcomes from this ceasefire. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-11 10:18:55 PM |
| #20 if they suspend themselves in time and stay in the ceasefire for eternity Ooooooooh, I see. Stupid me. I thought this cease-fire was for real. In that case, I stand corrected. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-04-11 9:54:21 PM |
| #19 98Zulu - Oops! I just saw your post! I love Rummy, for a lot of reasons, but I have to say I'm coming to the same conclusion about boots. Either there is a moronic problem with Abizaid / Sanchez on the distribution of boots in Iraq (or even the dipshit possessive politics within the Corps that pops up when someone suggests stripping off a unit here or there to put them where they're needed - that shit goes on, too), or there just ain't enough to go around in-country. I'll say the 3:1 has been the standard for a few thousand years and makes a shitload of assumptions -- which may not apply today because there are some serious tech advantages ranging from night vision to air support to comms. So I'll wiggle a little bit right there, but I buy off on the whole as making real and solid sense. My understanding is that during our little hudna, the Marine forces have been reinforced to approximately double in number - what, 2500? - which does make you wonder, I agree, about the first pass. Sorry for slow reply!!! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-11 9:22:07 PM |
| #18 well...Rafael...I guess I'll have to give you the point that if they suspend themselves in time and stay in the ceasefire for eternity, then, you are in fact, correct. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-11 9:21:10 PM |
| #17 They have a choice, submit or die. ..or take the cease-fire (which is what they have been offered). In a cease-fire nobody's doing the killing, dying, or submitting. So I don't understand your point. 98Zulu, once again, I agree with you. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-04-11 9:05:07 PM |
| #16 #1 Yup .com gotta luv'em for it. The biggest enemy we have is American public opinion. At work people still go "Yeah but over 650 soldiers have died." Although every American death is a horrible thing, you have to look at it from a military standpoint. These numbers are EXTREMELY light casualties. Why doesn't the press just say 380 KIA instead of counting about 250 people run over by trucks or "accidental discharges"! The press takes great pains to pump the body count. I'm starting to get fed up with Rummy and Bush. Rummy, because his "economy of force" policy plus high tech isn't worth a damn. What he needs to do is to start raising 5 to 6 more Infantry Divisions YESTERDAY!!! (think future operations elsewhere) Boots on the grounds win the war not a couple 10 million dollar missles. (Clinton tried that remember?) If he thinks rotating 2 large chunks of the military back and forth to Iraq isn't going to send recruitment / reenlistment rates plummeting, he's nuts. The 1200 Marines wasn't enough. (Offensive Attacks ((never mind that it's MOUT OPS)) should have a ,what, 3:1 ratio of attackers to defenders? Hmmm...)They should have brought in, at least, 2 Brigades (aprox 5,000) to start with. Then run the campaign 24/7. Also, all of these "cease fires" make us look weak to the Iraq's and Arabs sorta like the militants are wearing us down. (the first one to get the women and children out ok, but thats it.) As far as Bush, it's election time and now he's "asking other nations for suggestions on how to resolve it!!??" Hell man, you have Marines on the job, don't hinder them and let them get the job done! As long as the politician's continue to get in the way (or worry about if people will vote for them) things will only get worse for the soldiers and Marines. May God bless them all. ...My 2 cents. |
| Posted by: 98Zulu 2004-04-11 7:56:33 PM |
| #15 silly :-p if they submit worst we can do is jug them till the world forgets about them then hand them over to the iraqi's to be executed as saddam sympathizers.. Anything more and we lose credibility |
| Posted by: Dcreeper 2004-04-11 7:13:32 PM |
| #14 Well latest word is that the cease-fire is in effect, so all this talk of ultimatums is hot air...for now anyways. Hardly hot air, if you ask me. You can read the NYT headlines all you want to and ponder possibilities over glass of brandy and a cigar. But, if you want MHO, this is is do or die. We aren't playing barbie dolls or GI joe here. They have a choice, submit or die. Sometimes things are just that simple. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-11 3:53:55 PM |
| #13 Oh, they asked for the army to come to Tulagi But General MacArthur said "no" He gave as his reason It wasn't the season Besides there is no USO Asside from irreverant Marine humor, the press can blather an wring their hands. The bottom line is that the Marines stay their course in Fallujah and follow their battle plan. These things take time, and the press has neither the time or the patience. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2004-04-11 2:48:04 PM |
| #12 If they submit -- hang them from that bridge and then open only that bridge to the outside so everyone has pass by them to get in our out. Time for an object lession. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-04-11 12:08:04 PM |
| #11 Well if they submit then we have too feed the scum. So dying looks like the best way too go |
| Posted by: smokeysinse 2004-04-11 11:44:38 AM |
| #10 We can just go Dug-out Doug on them LOL With the help of God (and a few Marines) McArthur returned to the Phillipines. I assume it wasn't in reference to DougOut Doug lies a quaking on the rock.... |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-04-11 11:35:23 AM |
| #9 Anon> your correct that is what it means. We shall see what the talking heads come up/w. My estimate is that we'll be back to killing muzzy's by Monday. We'll prolly get a fix on more of their positions during the cease fire and might be able to get some Battle Damage Assessments (BDAs) back to our intel. In the interim we can reload, top off chow, h2o, & ammo and get ready for round two. So long as we've cordoned off all major thorough fare's to Fallujah so the enemy can't reconstitute - this is really no big deal for us. I bet the fallujian's medical supplies are all about used up. Heck, must find positives in every turn of the situation. We can just go Dug-out Doug on them, cordon off on block at a time and neutralize any resistors. Time becomes his enemy. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-11 9:30:33 AM |
| #8 the U.S. military said it would move to take the city if cease-fire talks fail Well latest word is that the cease-fire is in effect, so all this talk of ultimatums is hot air...for now anyways. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-04-11 7:49:25 AM |
| #7 I hear the word "islam" actually means to "submit." |
| Posted by: Anon 2004-04-11 7:20:05 AM |
| #6 The Arabs will not believe it and will not submit... ...until the second time they are given this ultimatum from the USMC, surrounded by their dead comrades that resulted from the conseqences of not taking a Marine at his word. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2004-04-11 2:54:19 AM |
| #5 I vote for submit and die! |
| Posted by: Zenster 2004-04-11 12:37:03 AM |
| #4 Sound like the Marines have thier stuff squared away! |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2004-04-11 12:34:51 AM |
| #3 Works for me! Semper fi, Marines. You rock! |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2004-04-11 12:26:33 AM |
| #2 I would prefer the second option. |
| Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2004-04-11 12:23:14 AM |
| #1 Lol! You can always tell when a Marine is talking - they don't leave any wiggle room for the weenies! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-11 12:23:14 AM |