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| Iraq-Jordan | ||||||||||
| Rallies slam US military assault on Najaf | ||||||||||
| 2004-08-13 | ||||||||||
| Right on schedule... Protests against the US assault on Najaf have broken out in Iraqi cities and Iran, with some demonstrators calling for the resignation of Iraqi interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.
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| Posted by:Fred |
| #30 .com: I let myself believe in Allawi, against my better judgement (and I did question myself - just a little - when I started investing in this operation, damnit), so I am really buzzed out - and depressed. What a total dumbass I am for believing, even for a moment, that he would not revert to form. I surrender - I knew better. Your belief is a credit to you - only men of honor are capable of trusting and being trusted. Unfortunately, in the workaday world, very few people are worthy of trust. I don't apply the words "belief" or "trust" to Muslim leaders - I think their worldview allows them to betray without compunction because that's just the Muslim way. Why does a rattlesnake bite? Because that's its nature. We are allying ourselves with Allawi the way we allied ourselves with Uncle Joe Stalin in WWII - not because we like him, but because we have some goals in common. Do not expect Allawi to become a Winston Churchill, because that's simply not in the cards - Iraqi and Muslim minds have been poisoned against the US for far too long. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-14 12:22:55 AM |
| #29 Dot, your not going anywhere mofk. Take a deep breath of the country air. This war is only just begun. Talk is cheap, wild opinion comes much dearer. You've got a job, bitch. Suck it up and carry the load. Did you think this was all by accident? Hell no! You've been tagged. Now stay alert, watch the wire for movement, shoot to kill! |
| Posted by: Lucky 2004-08-13 11:52:37 PM |
| #28 Frank - How about in Guadalajara? That's one of the best landing zones outside the US. Another is Panama... |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 11:11:32 PM |
| #27 Lol! I'm sure you're right. Funny how humans only really learn when in pain. When times are good, they just happily wallow in their ignorance, heh. BTW, I don't want to belabor it, but I have to insist that my knowledge of geography is just fine, lol! I'm bent on applying it soon, in fact! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 11:09:07 PM |
| #26 tequila, Paco? I recommend Cazadores ("the hunter") - available at Costco for $29.00/bottle, same as in Tijuana...$45 at the liquor store. On ice, with possibly a twist of lime? Sublime.... |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-08-13 11:04:52 PM |
| #25 .com: Mebbe, after 30+ yrs of sobriety, it's time to start drinking again. I should probably acquire a taste for tequilla or Mekong Coke, heh. Ambrose Bierce: "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography". If there is a major boom in this country larger than 9/11, I expect Americans are going to be learning a lot of geography, even if Kerry gets elected. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-13 10:57:47 PM |
| #24 Lol! There's a shitload of truth in both of those posts, gents - many thanx for the excellent analysis. I promise I'll STFU and quit bitchin'! Mebbe, after 30+ yrs of sobriety, it's time to start drinking again. I should probably acquire a taste for tequilla or Mekong Coke, heh. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 10:51:22 PM |
| #23 .com: And I believe, in my depressed state, that Kerry will win - simply because none of the outlets with a truly mass audience has anything like an even-handed approach. Dude, you need to chill. First, let me address the worst case. We survived Carter, during a time when the Soviets had 20,000 warheads pointed in our direction. Muslims don't have anywhere near that kind of firepower. We'll survive Kerry. Second, the polls don't mean anything at this stage. When GWB's dad was running against Dukakis, he was 17 points behind at this stage in the game. GWB is a good closer. That's pretty important in politics, because early leads mean nothing. Only the final stretch counts. The media has always been biased against Republicans - Reagan was always described as a moron who also happened to have been a fifth-rate actor. He won anyway - in electoral vote landslides. GWB will do the same - and in many ways, his victory will be more impressive than Reagan's, since GWB will have done it after waging two wars that have been relentlessly belittled by the Democrats. But if I'm wrong, and Kerry gets elected, I can't see how Kerry could be worse than Carter. Muslims are an effete bunch that spends a lot of time talking about sacrifice hoping that other Muslims will belly up to the bar. (Muslims are such a bunch of braggarts. The Soviets lost 20m people in WWII. Even if I add all the Muslim conflicts since WWII together, I don't get anywhere close to 20m people). And they're not exactly in the same league as the Soviets as regards armament. Between lack of motivation* and lack of armaments, I don't rate the Muslim threat all that highly. China is another question, of course. * That's an euphemism for another word, of course. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-13 10:39:02 PM |
| #22 "Dave - Brother, if you ever need anything, just holler." Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Right now I need a drink. And the only thing I've got in the house is a bottle of Stolichnaya and some orange-flavored Metamucil to mix it with: an "Orange Stooli." Kinda gritty going down, but it packs a wallop. But not tonight, I'm not quite that desperate... "I let myself believe in Allawi, against my better judgement (and I did question myself - just a little - when I started investing in this operation, damnit), so I am really buzzed out" I try not to believe. Period. Or to invest. Or to get my heart set on anything. Whatever will be, will be. I will influence what little I can as an individual human being, and then accept the outcome as best I can. Either this "Arab Democracy" thing will work, or it won't. And the only thing its success or failure will determine is what strategy we pursue in the future. I don't like belief. Muslims are believers; so are Leftists. What is so for them is what they believe to be so, and facts are irrelevant. Testing hypotheses? A foreign concept. Limits of knowledge? They don't exist. What does experience tell us? For them, it's mute; for belief trumps all. Commitment to truth? Forget it, to them there is only belief. Is it any accident that Leftists and Muslims are allied against us? I don't think so. Oh, well, tomorrow's another day. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-08-13 10:30:50 PM |
| #21 ZF - Excellent outlook! A sanity-saver, heh! As for religion, well, I'm actually hardcore - at about 12 I decided they were all a trainload of bullshit - with a few (some more, some less - including zero for Islam) jewels of wisdom buried in the BS - and thus they survived. Most do some level of service for society - and thus I don't push it. It is, however, quite a load when someone says "My shit's stuff - and your stuff is shit" - since none of it can be proven. I stick to what I can prove when my brain is in gear. If one of them turns out to be true, well, everyone who bought that flavor is free to say "I told you so!", heh. We all make our choices. Dave - Brother, if you ever need anything, just holler. I could not be more synched if my life depended upon it. You said it perfectly - thank you! I let myself believe in Allawi, against my better judgement (and I did question myself - just a little - when I started investing in this operation, damnit), so I am really buzzed out - and depressed. What a total dumbass I am for believing, even for a moment, that he would not revert to form. I surrender - I knew better. And I believe, in my depressed state, that Kerry will win - simply because none of the outlets with a truly mass audience has anything like an even-handed approach. I would say that only Fox News provides me any glimmer of hope - since they do command the highest audience share and do tell it straighter than any of the others. But is it enough? No. Even if every Fox viewer voted Pub. Are the polls, and they've been damned consistent, correct? Will the Pub convention have any effect? Hell, even if Bush wins, there will be a significant number of my fellow Americans who are, by almost any measure I wish to apply, either stupid, willfully ignorant, or insane... What's to be happy about? Okay, enuff. As you said, I don't feel any better either. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 9:35:49 PM |
| #20 .com: Here's the image I wasted 20 minutes looking for before I finally gave up and posted my last response... Shi'a observing something called Ashoura. Need I add: Fuckwits? Note that Christian festivals used to involve self-flagellation by the participants, hundreds of years ago. I personally don't care what these guys do to themselves, as long as they don't come after us. That, to me, constitutes crossing the line. Whatever they do to themselves, I consider their problem. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-13 9:09:48 PM |
| #19 Only because Monica hasn't run for office yet. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-08-13 8:07:13 PM |
| #18 actually, the suckiest candidate ever seems to have been McGreevy |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-08-13 7:59:05 PM |
| #17 Okay .com. Just keep the snarky ones coming. |
| Posted by: RantBurghs Teeming Masses 2004-08-13 7:42:32 PM |
| #16 Dave, hon, cheer up--although I must admit I've been pretty strung out and can't sleep too well myself. I hate living in these momentous and awful times! We are the United States of America. That's first, last and always. And I don't know if the rest of the Arab world would " let" Iraq go Shiite, even if we would. Iraq is surrounded by Sunni neighbors (except for Iran) which, if left to themselves, despise Shiites, particularly the Soddies. The Sauds would wipe out the "holy" city and mosque of Najaf in a New York minute and not think a thing about it! And sKerry isn't going to win--he's not. Suckiest. Candidate. Ever. And if he does, I'm moving to Costa Rica! |
| Posted by: GreatestJeneration 2004-08-13 7:38:47 PM |
| #15 "The Yeah! and Boo! cycles definitely skew what passes for debate - and mainly serve to create cynicism where it didn't exist before, and deepen it where it has already taken root." I've been on pins and needles for weeks; and I've found for the sake of my own sanity that I have to force myself not to react to each and every bit of news-- good or bad. That manic-depressive shit is just too much. And I have to remind myself that the information in any of these reports is just too damn sketchy to draw any firm conclusions. So I've been trying to shoot for the "long view." But I do know this: our lives do not depend on this "Arab Democracy Initiative" succeeding; it is **THEIR** lives which depend on it succeeding. If the Iraq Experiment ends up yielding good results (and the results have to be assessed on a timescale of years, not weeks or months), so much the better: it'll serve as a model for possibly doing the same elsewhere, where appropriate. But if it fails, we will at least be able to say, "We tried. We really, REALLY tried. And we found that these people and their social system simply can NOT be reformed, and thereby detoxified, through the introduction of consensual government. It just ain't gonna happen." And in that event, if there are more terrorist attacks on the American homeland of 9/11 magnitude, we will know not to f*ck around with "democratization" again: our response will be swift, it will be massive, and it will solve the Islamic terrorism problem immediately, completely and permanently. "If Kerry is elected, I offer the simple opinion that we're seriously fucked - for a decade, at least." I've given this a lot of thought lately, and I think you're right. I don't know that it would be fatal to our constitutional republic, but a Kerry presidency would likely render it gravely ill. It would also very likely usher in an era of unprecedented For the jihadis, a Kerry victory would be an utter vindication of bin Laden's "Mogadishu Principle": cause the Americans enough casualties, and they WILL go home. (Sometimes it just takes a bit longer than others, though.) For the Chinese communists, a Kerry victory would present an almost irresistable invitation to take Taiwan by force or by threat of force; they would calculate-- probably accurately-- that America no longer posesses the political will to come to Taiwan's aid. The Black Hats in Iran would once again be laughing at us and thumbing their noses at us, just as they did during Carter's dismal excuse for a presidency. They'll make nukes. And they'll use them. But before the Black Hats have a chance to do that, they'll likely be wiped off the earth by an Israeli preemptive nuclear attack; for the Israelis will conclude from a Kerry victory that George W. Bush and his doctrine were an anomaly, and the norm for America is not having a set of balls. They'll conclude it's up to them to remove the Iranian menace with no help from us, and they'll do it. Sorry for the long rant. I wish I could honestly say it made me feel better. It doesn't. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-08-13 7:30:46 PM |
| #14 Here's the image I wasted 20 minutes looking for before I finally gave up and posted my last response... Shi'a observing something called Ashoura. Need I add: Fuckwits? |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 7:09:10 PM |
| #13 ZF - Has Allawi indicated he will run for the PM in elections? I have not heard this - and I'm not sure he would, but such an assumption makes sense - in both ways, heh. Strength is, indeed, more impressive on average, but his Shi'ite background comes into play, as well, and a certain sensitivity must be part of his reasoning. I hope you're right that Sadr is looking more like an Iranian tool by his actions as time passes - that is Allawi's (and the entire Iraqi Interim Govt) "out" for acting against him. I worked with 2 Iraqis and knew a 3rd in SA. Not political exiles, just regular guys. They were all Sunnis but not Ba'athists who finally got permission to be educated abroad - and then never went back, which hurt their families, somewhat. But it was a planned thing (and common - I knew 3 on the same path!) so that there was an escape from Saddam for the lot of them if they kept it quietly under the radar. In effect, the parents would never get to leave, but these guys were making a place for their siblings. All 3 of them were also united in their view of Iran: assholes and schemers. Some of this was nationalism over the war - and some of it was suspicion of the designs the Mad Mullahs had for uniting Shi'a Islam - an obvious anathema for these Sunnis. What I don't have first-hand knowledge of is what Jake Shi'a thinks of Iranian meddling. Sure, they love to march around and whack themselves on the head with swords and, generally, be remakably stupid little robots - but will they really rise up in favor of Qom and the Black Hats? I do not know and do not trust my ignorance to do more than just guess - basing it on observation, not knowledge. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 6:59:21 PM |
| #12 Allawi IS a Shiite himself, don't forget. These are his co-religionists, albeit extremists. I hope our high command knows what they're doing; I'm sure they do. Everyone--especially Tater and his boys--have *got* to know that we could wipe them out if we chose to. And it's not about whether Bush wins. The secret is clearly to kill al-Sadr before FRIDAY. Once they go to the mosque and get all whipped up by the clerics, oh brother! And also, we need to get on with it before Iran can send in anymore reinforcements! It's a real sticky wicket and I suggest Prayer for those of you who are religious. We can lose the whole war starting here. Or maybe not. How will this end??? Only God and perhaps Rummy know for sure. |
| Posted by: GreatestJeneration 2004-08-13 6:35:19 PM |
| #11 .com: And it won't. Allawi was an exile long enough to look good in a suit, but he's still the product of Iraqi society, lip service only to Western thinking, and to even consider negotiating with Sadr is all the proof we should require to "get it" I think Allawi is talking about negotiating because he needs to run for elections to keep his job, not because of some Arab mentality. In fact, in the context of traditional Arab dictatorships and monarchies, negotiating makes him look weak. Saddam never negotiated - he just ran right over his opponents, because he never needed any popular approval, just the approval of his henchmen. (I suspect if it starts looking like GWB is going to lose, and Kerry is going to take power, Allawi will finally unleash the American military to do all kinds of things before Kerry pulls 'em out, regardless of the consequences). Right now, Allawi is just trying to avoid losing votes from people who may view the current government position as too provocative. He wants to give more opportunities for Sadr to make himself even more unpopular with the Iraqi people. And I think it's working - every day he continues breathing - the more Iraqis want to string him up from the nearest lamp post. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-13 6:22:17 PM |
| #10 LH - That was unduly harsh - I've re-read your comments a couple of times and feel I definitely owe you an apology. Sorry - I was over the line and stupid on my finger-wagging response. Peace, bro. The Yeah! and Boo! cycles definitely skew what passes for debate - and mainly serve to create cynicism where it didn't exist before, and deepen it where it has already taken root. Although it was like quitting crack (I assume) I swore off of instant messaging and IRC. I may do the same with blogging soon. At least those thread responses which don't type themselves... i.e. just the snarky stuff. Serious responses just don't seem to work out as they would in a face-to-face where 90% of the confrontational shit would never occur because of the myriad additional cues available. Sigh. Apologies. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 6:21:13 PM |
| #9 Yank - My Western mind loves what you said - and hope for. But it isn't happening that way, is it? And it won't. Allawi was an exile long enough to look good in a suit, but he's still the product of Iraqi society, lip service only to Western thinking, and to even consider negotiating with Sadr is all the proof we should require to "get it" - it's not our call anymore and your scenario, no matter how good and theraputic it probably was to write, just ain't happening. So we have to get over it. The dipshits like Kerry who think you could've "planned for the peace" in Iraq and are successfully bashing Bush over the head with this nonsense - because Joe Average doesn't think Arab - will keep the water muddied for long after the election. Memes spring up quickly in LoonieLand - and die very fucking hard. More on the topic of logic... look at AlQ - it has consistently defied Western logic over the last year or so. Shit on the living room carpet in the Jakarta bombings, sliced off heads and proudly displayed the videos, directly threatened Govts, the list goes on. Are they nuts? Yes, indeed -- by Western logic. And when it first started happening, I thought so too - just because it was costing them friendly Govt coverage and maybe even bases of operation. But that was my Western mind. By Arab logic, they are proving themselves to be pure, to be True Believers, to be worthy of being followed by the uncommitted, but equally devout, asshats - who are joining up to become (likely) martyrs. That's just the endgame of their entire world-view, so in their terms is pretty fucking glorious and good - no matter how whacked it seems to us. It's weird, but it's obvious that State and the Pentagon are both totally fucking clueless. I know people with 20+ years in the ME, who didn't go Stockholm Syndrome, who could've played the truly essential role of BULLSHIT DETECTOR for them... and saved them TONS of grief. Sorry, I'm rambling. LH - I think Sadr's father was martyred - but I doubt he was a willing martyr. Regards Allawi, he and guys like Chalbi certainly had more influence than they should have, IMO. And we're back to BULLSHIT DETECTORS, no? We'll just do what's in our national interest - at least Bush will. If Kerry is elected, I offer the simple opinion that we're seriously fucked - for a decade, at least. And so is Israel - these are not the Soviets, they're the Mad Fucking Mullahs. I say it's merely a matter of time - and intel. If Bush wins, we'll take out the nuke stuff as best we can - and maybe even topple the Mad Mullahs - the situation they've engineered leaves no other option under the Bush Doctrine. As for the emotional thing - I'm just tired and in a skeptical mood. I'm not sure what you are trying to say... seems extremely presumptuous on your part, if I'm reading you correctly - maybe not. BUT... I don't require therapy or soothing - much less any finger-wagging, if that was your intent. If not, no sweat. If so, HAND - and keep you finger closer to home or I'll bite the motherfucker off, heh. ;-) |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 5:31:28 PM |
| #8 dot com - pissed that John Burns was right:) oops, sorry, i feel your pain, I really do. I just dont expect this to go forward western style linearly. I was more pessimistic a couple of days ago (well, not really, but i at least defended the NYT fuckwits) and im not as pessimistic now, having expected less. I think maybe we're all following this too closely. One day they ok an attack, and hurray!! Next day they say theyre not after Sadr, and BOO! Next day theyre going into finish him off and YEAH!!! next theyre negotiating and boo!!! Look theres simply too much we dont know. We dont know, and CANT know, what Allawis real negotiating position is - hell we dont even really know Sadr - I mean I DONT know if hes really willing to be martyred (his dad was, so its not out of the question) or if hes gonna run as most here think - and Allawi is a more nuanced character - lets not forget that the man DID work for the Mukbarat, and then for the CIA for years. The man certainly knows NUANCE, and not just cause hes an Arab. I dont know if Allawi really wants a democracy or is a CIA stooge who wants a pro-US dictatorship, as some of our lefty friends tell us. I dont know how he intends to play Sistani. I dont know if his short term goal is to get Sadr out of Najaf (and if so what he intends to do with that) to get Sadr into the political process, or to kill Sadr. I dont know what the state of the various Iraqi forces is. I dont know what the situation on the IGC is. I dont know to what extent this is all an attempt to get the goods on Iran. Basically I dont know jack about the situation, beyond the obvious military stuff - and, i think neither does anyone else here. We can watch, and comment, but lets avoid the temptation to emotional reactions - we should have learned that from the events of the last 3 years. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 5:09:25 PM |
| #7 The Iranians have been running these protests since they began after we went in there. Remeber the perfect signs with lettering in both Arabic and English (for the western MSM)? This was when the water and eletricity wasn't on. Despite the obvious Iranian connection the MSM just keeps lapping this up an paying attention to these idiots. It reminds me of a Jesse Jackson rent-a-mob. |
| Posted by: remote man 2004-08-13 4:55:38 PM |
| #6 Sadr is useful as bait. If we let him live more Iranians will show up to fight for his cause. We can then kill them. They'll enter Najaf like a roach motel. This will not only weaken the Iranians who will have to explain why these fellows rarely come back to Iran. But it will also weaken them in that the hardcore Islamist numbers won't be so high the next time the Students in Iran get vocal. |
| Posted by: Yank 2004-08-13 4:45:48 PM |
| #5 AP - Whoa - that's a book! I have no doubt the Mad Mullahs have pulled out all the stops, at least as they see it, and are hoping beyond hope that their game takes on a life of its own, but, and this is a response to ZF's excellent observation, I'd guess they didn't pay enough to get a real uprising going. They really are a bunch of clueless transparent dufuses in most respects. Plan? I dunno if what's left of the CA (i.e. a POV that makes sense to us) will ever be on the same page as the Iraqi Govt. We've been sorta spoiled by relations with Saudi Arabia - they employ big$$$ PR firms to speak to us (via their pet think tanks and reporters - e.g. Thomas Friedman) in terms we understand... the rest of the ME doesn't and that causes many disconnects, as I complained about regards Western logic vs Arab customs. Sigh. To tell you the truth, the Sadr episode, assuming it tracks the negotiated settlement path, tells me exactly what I did not want to hear: You're out. Thanks for getting rid of Saddam, now piss off. This is our show, now, and we'll do it the Arab Way. We'll repeat all of the same, comfortable and familiar, mistakes. We'll turn this opportunity into shit, just as every other Arab entity in history has done when handed their future, a free and clear title, on the proverbial silver platter. They didn't work for it, so they don't appreciate it. The fact that they would never even think to achieve freedom themselves is part and parcel to the problem. Simply put, the "bad" punidts may have been right all along - Arabs are not up to handling Democracy - they don't get it (freedom), don't have a clue what to do with it, and will fuck it up if it's given to them. Every time. Such is my mood today, sorry! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 4:45:28 PM |
| #4 If Sadr had any real support, these guys would be out attacking coalition forces and inflicting casualties instead of holding signs. Sounds like a bunch of jihadi talkers who love to talk about loving death instead of actively embracing it themselves. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2004-08-13 4:26:49 PM |
| #3 So, .com, we both agree that the BTs in Iran are keeping the Tater Troop show going in men, materiel, and funding. How will it play out? Tater won't play the martyr. He reminds me of a fish I caught last week: all mouth and no meat. His invincible troops have been wacked at least twice. The Iraqis will not touch him, so what happens next? Does the BTs put more men in the breech and let 'er rip? Or do we have do something covert to the BTs in Iran to double them up, so to speak. I wonder what our strategy is. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2004-08-13 4:23:21 PM |
| #2 Methinks these are pure Iranian agitprop - with liberal payouts... and with little strain we can see down the road what he prolly can't: Tater is supposed to be a martyr. Though it's obvious he's a classic coward, I have no doubt this is what the Teheran Puppet Masters have in mind. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-08-13 4:09:42 PM |
| #1 Once again, these demos show that a significant group is not wired to code. "Attacked Iraq and looted the country" is a statement totally out of line. But reasoning with these people does not seem like a viable option. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2004-08-13 4:02:09 PM |
