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| Europe | |
| No kids please, we're selfish | |
| 2005-09-20 | |
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| Posted by:Steve White |
| #19 Some say 10,000 years of human history, but let's not quibble. Key thing is, people who have kids tend to have more descendants than people who don't -- many of whom, unfortunately are very intelligent, ambitious women -- leading to a species that tends to be fruitful rather than otherwise. This non-replacement birthrate thingy will be self-reversing for the species as a whole; East Germans tend toward 3-4 kids/family, as I recall. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2005-09-20 20:28 |
| #18 God. I would love to be a father. |
| Posted by: Secret Master 2005-09-20 20:22 |
| #17 Just remember Angie that less than a hundred years ago [of 4000 years of human history] and the arrival of the modern western nanny state, you either created children to take care of you in your old age, accumulated wealth [done by very damn few in the whole population], or died a lot sooner than you'd like since there were no real social support systems for a great portion of the population. Non-nomadic societies evolved by promoting the need of reproduction for the care of the old [with some, often nomadic, turning out the elderly to face the end alone]. One of ten commandments of the Judeo-Christrian culture requires the care of one's father and mother. That burden is now shifted both by the nanny state and the ability of large numbers of people now able to accumulate resources to see them through to the end. That many people have such choices today is either a blessing or a curse depending on your own point of view. None the less, it still remains a fact of life for most of the population of this planet. Its interesting to hear fellow travelers complain about paying school taxes only to turn around and them demand more funding for elderly focused programs. Where do you think they get the money? |
| Posted by: Hupaimble Elmolurt2226 2005-09-20 17:14 |
| #16 I am raising my niece... Good on you, Zpaz, and good luck. But I was talking about whether people produced children out of some sort of generic altruism. I don't believe that they do. The selfish people would be selfish with or without kids. Which was pretty much my point. But if you look up top you'll see self-righteous smugness about the intrinsic moral superiority of parenthood that would frankly gag a maggot. Or a flea. |
| Posted by: Angie Schultz 2005-09-20 15:42 |
| #15 Were not a kids person in particular, albeit I assumed that at some point I may get into parenting. Did not happen until I was about 32 and then again when I was 42. The first daughter is now a grownup, a bright young lady, I am proud of her. She is not exceptional in any special way (yea, she's very pretty but I don't include that), but she turned out to be a very decent human being with a potential to get somewhere once she decides what is her calling. Took some work on my part, I admit. ;-) The younger one, now 9, is a bit spoiled, but I assume that it is because I was not around for a chunk of time, being half a continent away and coming for 4 month-long visits each year. Now being with her, she's got a mild version of a boot camp, for now. ;-) I am sure she will turn out pretty decent human being as well. It will take a bit of work. Back to the beginning... I was not particularly a 'kids' person, but do not regret fathering my daughters one bit, rather the opposite--very glad that circumstances that brought them into this world were there. Yea, some people just like kids, they may just not know it for a while. |
| Posted by: Sobiesky 2005-09-20 15:14 |
| #14 I have 3 kids,2 oldest are steps.Butch the oldest is closer to his real Dad than me,but that's ok we still love each other.My step daughter I've raised since she was 3 months old and love as my own.The good thing about my situation is thier Dad and I are old friends and drinkin buddies so we have avoided lot of friction that others in my situation have had to deal with.Greatest day of my life was when the nurse laid my son in my arms,you don't know what you are missing. |
| Posted by: raptor 2005-09-20 14:56 |
| #13 "People have kids for their own selfish reasons . . ." And some people just like kids. The selfish people would be selfish with or without kids. It's not about the kids. Not having kids is okay if you don't want to be a parent--and you don't kill them after you're a parent, pretending you're not a parent. For a lot of people, kids, like dogs, keep us happy, human, and future-focused (and frustrated, impoverished, and way too busy). |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2005-09-20 13:30 |
| #12 which of you thought, "Gosh, I don't really want kids, but I owe it to humanity to have them. Better get to it!" That'd be me. I am raising my niece, a situation I avoided for 10 years. The father is in prison and the mother is a crack addict. After 10 years of seeing her mother screw up, I decided the child's future was more important than holding the mother's feet to the fire by keeping them together. (Perhaps I am condemnable for waiting that long.) Ultimately, I could not bear the thought of the child making the same mistakes and becoming another burden on, yes, humanity. I find myself, at times, angry with the child because of the failures of her parents. I set my anger aside as best I can and try to do what is right for the child. It has been rewarding at times, to see her improve - and it has been radical, but there has been damage to the child and it is has been a struggle. A struggle for her more than me in the end - she went from no to demanding expectations overnight - but, better now than later. I empathize with your kid aversion Angie, but the price to be paid for not raising the next generation is greater than that paid raising them. |
| Posted by: Zpaz 2005-09-20 13:14 |
| #11 Happened to you to, eh? Thought I was the only one to get carried away. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2005-09-20 11:47 |
| #10 Lol. Except when the kid is a very big SURPRISE! Then you deal with it and discover a few bazillion things you didn't know about yourself along the way, lol. Chill. |
| Posted by: .com 2005-09-20 11:40 |
| #9 Oh, please. Full disclosure: I don't have kids. I don't like kids. I wouldn't have been doing the kids, the world, or myself any favors by having them. Hands up, parents: which of you thought, "Gosh, I don't really want kids, but I owe it to humanity to have them. Better get to it!" Thought so. People have kids for their own selfish reasons, and then some of them stand around patting themselves on the back for their great contribution to humanity. (And in my experience, many people end their contribution at actually producing the kid. Raising it, they feel, is someone else's department.) Furthermore, there are a lot of people who took a long time to learn, growing up, how to share, wait your turn, be pleasant, etc. And just when they've begun to internalize these lessons, they become parents and find that there are no limits to the selfishness you can express when it's for Your Child. Have a blue, screaming fit in the principal's office because little Princessa didn't make the cheerleading squad? It's OK, it's for My Child! Kick Granny in the shin for that last Beanie Baby? My Child deserves it. Try not to let the glow from those halos keep you awake at night, OK? Oh, and 3dc? Fleas don't live very long. Those lifetimes will go very fast. I'm going to spend every one of them biting you. |
| Posted by: Angie Schultz 2005-09-20 11:30 |
| #8 GA, That is why we represent a threat to every other culture in the world. Binny was just the first to realize it with the means to do something about it. Sooner or later, they'll have to jopin us or disappear as everyone leaves. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2005-09-20 10:39 |
| #7 11A5S - Thoughtful exposition of a conundrum. I'll turn the tables on ya today with a saying I used to hear from my grandfather which seems (to me) to go to the heart of it: "It's hard to be hungry with a ham on your back." |
| Posted by: .com 2005-09-20 10:23 |
| #6 11A5S - Might check the Japanese as well. A lot of the ladies are not in the reproductive mood either and the demography is catching up with Japan as well. An interesting variance between the US and all the other economically 'advanced' states, is that in the US culture there is a recognition beyond 'blood'. The American culture is one far more of the future than one focused if not anchored on the past. The Americans, beyond all the others, are willing to adopt children of any color, race, or culture. The outrage about the foreign influx is about 'illegal' not legal immigration. To a large extent, we still value those who come here 'legally' from all over the world to buy into the 'American Dream'[tm]. That is the one saving trait within the culture which will permit it to escape the 'self-centered' trap so many other 'successful' countries find themselves in now. |
| Posted by: Glereper Angolutle3263 2005-09-20 09:57 |
| #5 This article choes the opinions of so many that I've met here in the US and Europe. World sucks. There's already too many of us. Etc. The church newspaper had an article on the same subject this week, but the author couldn't bring herself to make the tough conclusions and wandered off into some feel good BS. You gotta give Lionel credit for being brutally honest if nothing else. I've read a certain amount of "survivor" literature over the years. From that and from studying the current reproductive crisis, I wonder if there is just some level of struggle that humans need without which out need to reproduce shuts down. I want to emphasize that I am not a Nietzchean. In fact I despise him. But maybe in that deranged, syphillitic mind of his, he was on to something. Maybe Lionel and her friends are the Last Men (including their male counterparts), without anything to strive for. Their lives are spent doing fun things and being "humane" (that's what one of them said, I believe. Nietzche would have said "Christian" instead.) slowly whithering away. At least our "inhumane" American capitalism gives us a struggle. There are surprises, challenges, disappointments. Things that make us value life. Value continuing it, knowing that our children will have something different and exciting to look forward, too -- not just more of the same rot. In the posting above this one, Steyn likens Europe to a corpse. Corpses attract all sort of opportunistic organisms, from bacteria to vultures. The pragmatist in me thinks of the economic and political costs to my nation as this tragedy unfolds. The soldier in me thinks of the cost in lives and materiel. There is a very human side of me that sees the horrors that the Lionels and Gabriellas will experience as they end their literally fruitless lives. How sad that they are only awakening now. And that it's too late. |
| Posted by: 11A5S 2005-09-20 09:15 |
| #4 This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper. |
| Posted by: Spot 2005-09-20 08:52 |
| #3 Lionel's a she (that may explain a lot) and the article is an interesting, if derpessing, read. She says Europe is committing suicide and she was not willing to do her part when she could have. But she stares all the implications in the face and answers them with a shrug. As she admits, she's not so much a dolt as lazy. And I can't disagree with her fianl conclusion for which she is prosecution exhibit number one: When Islamic fundamentalists accuse the west of being decadent, degenerate and debauched, you have to wonder if maybe they've got a point. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2005-09-20 08:16 |
| #2 One Roe effect, please. And make it snappy. |
| Posted by: Sluting Unineger6132 2005-09-20 06:49 |
| #1 His parents made the effort to raise an ingrate like him. Just to balance his karma he needs to raise kids too. Otherwise his karmic imbalance will need to be addressed with millions of lifetimes as a flea. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-09-20 01:15 |