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| Europe |
| Rioting Spreads to 20 Towns Around Paris |
| 2005-11-03 |
| Rampaging youths shot at police and firefighters Thursday after burning car dealerships and public buses and hurling rocks at commuter trains, as eight days of riots over poor conditions in Paris-area housing projects spread to 20 towns. Youths ignored an appeal for calm from President Jacques Chirac, whose government worked feverishly to fend off a political crisis amid criticism that it has ignored problems in neighborhoods heavily populated by first- and second-generation North African and Muslim immigrants. Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin called a string of emergency meetings with Cabinet ministers throughout the day. He told the Senate the government "will not give in" to violence in the troubled suburbs. "Order and justice will be the final word in our country," Villepin said. "The return to calm and the restoration of public order are the priority our absolute priority." At some point either the French Army or the Foreign Legion are going to be called in to "quell" the rioting. Let's see how the rioters greet men with bayonets. |
| Posted by:Anonymoose |
| #49 I would presume that the imams would certainly take advantage of the situation - and seize control if at all possible. The presumption that they, and Islam, have little or no place in this situation flies in the face of experience, but hey, anything's possible. As Judy Tenuda would say, "Hey, it could happen." |
| Posted by: Regnad Kcin 2005-11-03 23:17 |
| #48 My $ on inflame. Mutual assurances of humiliation and need to seethe. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2005-11-03 22:19 |
| #47 A riot is a riot. A mob is an organism that takes on a psychology of its own. You do not reason with a mob. You control a mob with a massive show of force. It does not mean that you go in with machine guns and hose 'em down right off the bat. It means that you bring in a massive force and judiciously apply overwhelming force if the mob does not disburse. The rioters have had their way because the French govt has been more into meetings than assembling the massive force to quell the riots. Now the French govt is behind the power curve, way behind. Of course, this unrest has been bubbling away in the 'hoods for years, finally blew the top off. Well, good luck, Chiraq. Hope you get this problem solved. Hope things work out. By the way, what is happening with your bag of tricks with regard to Iran these days? I know that you are busy. I'll get back to you later. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2005-11-03 21:58 |
| #46 good point. It will be interesting to find out tomorrow. |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-11-03 21:30 |
| #45 French To Let Rioters Govern Themselves |
| Posted by: doc 2005-11-03 21:28 |
| #44 OK, folks -- tomorrow is Friday, and that means Friday prayers at the mosques. Will that calm down or inflame the riots? My money's on inflame. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2005-11-03 21:24 |
| #43 At that rate, france won't be france for very long--it will be a Muslim colony. |
| Posted by: Spomock Javimp4277 2005-11-03 21:18 |
| #42 First generation Arab families in France average 11.5 people. Subtract out the parents that's 9.5 kids..... Say any more and I would be accused of racism so.... make your own opinions. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-11-03 20:50 |
| #41 Roger Simon's correspondent in Paris writes: The government has quietly put a lot of AK-47-toting soldiers on patrol in Paris, especially around key public transportation points and at the monuments and high-traffic areas such as Forum des Halles. I think there are three reasons for this - 1) to reassure the public - and the tourists, 2) to take some pressure off the Police Nationale, who have been deployed in greater numbers to the north-eastern suburbs and 3) to send a message to would be trouble-makers. The French have the reputation of being wimps, but in my experience, when they crack down, they crack down HARD. For one example, ChIRAQ's crony in the OFF scandal, Merimee, was quickly imprisoned in la Conciergerie which has the reputation of being one of the toughest prisons in France.... The laws here in France are very different than in the U.S. Despite the Napoléanic Code revisions, French law is still rooted in Roman law. That means you are guilty until YOU can prove yourself innocent. The judges act as something of a grand jury with sentencing powers and can decide whether or not you get a jury trial. Thus the muslims who were arrested last Thursday night in Clichy-sous-Bois went to prison on Monday! None of that Miranda merde here! |
| Posted by: lotp 2005-11-03 20:47 |
| #40 ooops, clicked too soon. Meant to add that it's misleading to attribute these riots EITHER just to social issues OR just to religion. It's a deadly mix of the worst of both elements .... |
| Posted by: lotp 2005-11-03 20:38 |
| #39 I don't know if lh was misinterpreted, or misinterpreted the thrust of the WOC article. But I certainly agree with the WOC entry on this point .... Note, tho, that what Colt is saying at WOC is that there IS a serious socioeconomic dimension to these riots. He goes on to place them, tho, firmly in the context of issues of Muslim identity for the teens and young adults there, and notes the breeding ground for overt terrorism. |
| Posted by: lotp 2005-11-03 20:37 |
| #38 lotp, how does that support LH's argument that Islamists aren't the issue? If anything, it supports the opposite -- the Islamists are turning the criminals into organized terrorists. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2005-11-03 20:28 |
| #37 Twice in the chest, one in the head. Relations stripped of naturalized citezenship and deported. Examples made. Probelms solved. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2005-11-03 20:27 |
| #36 liberalhawk was quoting from a much longer entry by Colt (EurabianTimes) at Winds of Change. It sounds as if most people didn't bop over to WOC to read the whole thing, since the response to lh has been off base WRT that article. Here's a bit more of it: For the uninitiated, cités are a mix of British council estates and the âghettoesâ of U.S. cities. Police arrive only in force, or to escort firemen. Visiting politicians wear bullet-proof vests and are accompanied by riot police.... French Muslims make up a significant percentage of cite-dwellers, but West Africans and Eastern Europeans are also present. The rioting in Clichy-Sous-Bois was carried out by Arabs and Berbers, yes, but also by Africans who were probably not Muslim. To take a more general example, while Muslims make up 70% of prisoners in France, other immigrants are similarly over-represented. Franceâs social ills, like Britainâs, cut across cultural boundaries. However, these problems are not blind to the quirks of culture. The problem for Europe is the heightened, yet incoherent, sense of identity many of these Muslims develop. Male chauvinism is a good example. Many young Muslim men, for instance, will quite happily have pre-marital sex with multiple partners, but would be furious to discover their sister doing the same thing. The incoherence of what is becoming the prevalent European-Muslim identity, taking the worst elements of both cultures, leaves the way open for radical groups to convert and recruit to their cause. In Britain, Hizb ut-Tahrir has frequently transformed criminals, including successful drug dealers, in to pious Muslims. While not a large proportion, the number of European Muslims who have âfound Allahâ and rejected their previous un-Islamic lifestyles is growing. Itâs unfortunate that reforming criminals must have a downside, but the groups that are doing it are quite often the same ones in favour of jihadist terrorism. These converts from the secular, Europeanised Muslim identity to a more-Muslim-than-Muslims one are the obvious target for terrorist recruiters... Iâd hesitate to divide between the lawlessness committed by unobservant Muslims and the terrorism perpetrated by their devout brothers and sisters. Native terrorist cells, the 7/7 four being a prime example, mostly seem to hail from the pious section of Europeâs Muslims, disgusted as much by the un-Islamic lifestyle of their fellow Muslims as by the Westâs immorality at home and tyranny abroad. But this may not last. Al-Qaeda has allied itself with groups and ideologues with a lot less in common with them than the angry Muslims of Europeâs cities. And those denied the lives âsocietyâ supposedly owes them often develop a nihilism not unlike that of the savages who make up the jihadi ranks. British intelligence now believes they are tackling an âinsurgencyâ, as opposed to a terrorist threat. In France, an insurgency of sorts has been waged for some time against the stateâs presence in les cités - the ongoing violence being inevitable rather than exceptional. The trends are all pointing in one direction. Europe may yet be reminded of what open warfare on the streets of Paris, Berlin, and Brussels looks like. |
| Posted by: lotp 2005-11-03 20:14 |
| #35 It's time to move the government to Vichy. |
| Posted by: Jackal 2005-11-03 20:03 |
| #34 I dunno AzCat. From what I've read the New York City draft riots of the 1860's were way, way worse. |
| Posted by: Secret Master 2005-11-03 19:39 |
| #33 With Gaza and the Palestinians out of the news, the "plight" of the humiliated Arabs has to spring up to take its place. Why not Paris? |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2005-11-03 19:39 |
| #32 My slower scan says the only part unprecedented is the failure of the authorities to reimpose order on a timely basis with overwhelming force, especally in the cases of the draft riots, Watts riots and labor riots. |
| Posted by: Thong Slort2612 2005-11-03 19:36 |
| #31 CT - Thanks for making my point. The cases you cited seem to have been either: smaller, of shorter duration, or triggered by singularly divisive events which are easily identified. Quick scans of your cites has reinforced my opinion that the current events are nearly unprecedented. |
| Posted by: AzCat 2005-11-03 19:24 |
| #30 Appeasement is the only answer. Capitualate surrender monkeys. Turn france over to the mooselimbs. |
| Posted by: John Q. Citizen 2005-11-03 19:21 |
| #29 There are places in the Middle East, I am sure they would prefer living in. |
| Posted by: plainslow 2005-11-03 19:20 |
| #28 I am unable to identify a historical precedent where such a group engaged in organized lawlessness on this scale for this length of time. Scale? There's a certain amount of relativitiy given the size of cities today, but this is certainly not unprecedented. Further, it is not clear to me that it is, or was initially, organized. In any case, the French have only themselves to blame for the duration. Tulsa riots Whiskey riots labor riots draft riots Watts riots French riots More French riots |
| Posted by: Claling Thriter9155 2005-11-03 19:11 |
| #27 Methinks the french should consult the CHA Police for advice...that's the Chicago Housing Authority to the uninitiated... |
| Posted by: borgboy 2005-11-03 18:58 |
| #26 The only new grapeshot coming out of France, these days, is Cîroc. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2005-11-03 18:29 |
| #25 French officials announce their crisis strategy: |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-11-03 18:25 |
| #24 It would be interesting if a foreign nation was behind this and the French felt they had to go to the Security Council. Oh, that veto. It would also be intersting to hear the silence as France skips the Security Council step and goes to war unilaterally. |
| Posted by: rjschwarz (no T!) 2005-11-03 18:18 |
| #23 Rather than, "Who?" the more interesting questions to me are, "To what end?" and, "What next?" We could accept LH's seeming premise that these are merely repressed minorities righteously voicing their displeasure at their mistreatment by an evil western power but I think not. History informs us that immigrant ghettos have nearly always been poor dirty places characterized by their high crime and unemployment rates yet I am unable to identify a historical precedent where such a group engaged in organized lawlessness on this scale for this length of time. Perhaps our enlightened modern societies to which immigrants arrive ready to thrust forward their hands for a welfare check rather than roll up their sleeves to get to work have bred a new sort of immigrant community that sees riots as a surer path to success than hard work but I'm not yet cynical enough to accept that premise. |
| Posted by: AzCat 2005-11-03 18:16 |
| #22 We have now analyzed the strange muffled sounds emanating from Napoleon's tomb. It is a male voice saying, "A whiff of grapeshot, you fools, a whiff of grapeshot!" |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-11-03 18:11 |
| #21 Muslims in Algiers decided to riot on VE Day, May 7 1945. French police confronted them. The flics brought out machine guns and killed either ~45 rioters or 45,000 "men, women and children"; depending on whether you believe first-hand accounts or the multi-cult academa-liars who put the latter figure in several recent reference works, including the Golden Book Encyclopedia. The latter of course is marketed to children. Either way, the riot ended almost as soon as it started. Actually, the 45,000 figure is a "poli-typo," a wild exaggeration that can be explained away as a typographical error if it is seriously questioned. It is a favorite device of lefty academics, who have an amazing propensity for adding zeroes when a higher figure would tend to discredit non-PC forces, and losing them when the truth works against communists, revolutionaries, Islamo-fascists or other favorite totalitarians. Lefty polemicist Tom Gervasi was a master of this. His Arsenal of Democracy, an anti-Pentagon screed that should have won the Stalin Prize, contains literally hundreds of them, mostly concerned with exaggerating the cost and prevalence of American weaponry around the world. |
| Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy 2005-11-03 18:04 |
| #20 But, guys! Liberalhawk says it's not related to Islamism! That means it can't be! (On a related note, Australia's leading imams have been preaching messages of hate in their mosques, despite assurances to the government they wouldn't. The mosques are apparently still being attended by Muslims, despite the claims that Islam is a religion of peace that finds incitement to violence offensive.) |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2005-11-03 17:56 |
| #19 Popcorn, we're out of popcorn. Carry on. |
| Posted by: wxjames 2005-11-03 17:47 |
| #18 This does not seem like a 'spontaneous' escalation of unrest. Somebody is organizing it. Has to be Islamist mosque-rats (hey fellow Louisianians, do you like my new term?) I wonder if there is any connection with the increased tendency of the French government to listen to arguements regarding Iranian nuclear adventurism? |
| Posted by: Glenmore 2005-11-03 17:47 |
| #17 Paris police would not go in and patrol and assist Muslim areas in Paris. Just as France will not go in to patrol and assist Baghdad. People of those areas of France do not have representatives in the government of Paris or France. Allow representatives in local and federal government, and the fires stop... |
| Posted by: RG 2005-11-03 17:08 |
| #16 and the problem is? |
| Posted by: Gir 2005-11-03 16:46 |
| #15 Saint Denis is full of Arabs and is traditionally a communist stronghold. This is definately being organized by the Left and the Jihadis. Paris is almost completely surrounded by housing projects "predominantly möselman". C'est tres dangereus dans les quartiers" |
| Posted by: Saint Michel 2005-11-03 16:38 |
| #14 What does Khofi Annan think of all this? Surely this calls for a sternly-worded statement reproving the French for allowing this to happen, no? |
| Posted by: WhiteCollarRedneck 2005-11-03 16:30 |
| #13 sanctions and a sternly worded letter of condemnation should do the job. |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-11-03 16:21 |
| #12 Embrace Multiculturism ! |
| Posted by: DepotGuy 2005-11-03 16:17 |
| #11 These "riots" are organised till the last bit...which secret service is behind it?......Iran or Syria...... |
| Posted by: Caramba 2005-11-03 16:17 |
| #10 I don't think the government can legally deploy the Foreign Legion within France's borders When you enlist in the Foreign Legion, you report for duty and train in France. The Foreign Legion fought on French territory in both the Franco-Prussian War and World War I. Don't think there was enough time for them to do anything in WWII. |
| Posted by: Dreadnought 2005-11-03 16:02 |
| #9 A few fuel-air explosives can quiet the neighborhood. |
| Posted by: mmurray821 2005-11-03 16:02 |
| #8 from Winds of Change "French Muslims make up a significant percentage of cite-dwellers, but West Africans and Eastern Europeans are also present. The rioting in Clichy-Sous-Bois was carried out by Arabs and Berbers, yes, but also by Africans who were probably not Muslim. To take a more general example, while Muslims make up 70% of prisoners in France, other immigrants are similarly over-represented. Franceâs social ills, like Britainâs, cut across cultural boundaries. " " |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2005-11-03 16:01 |
| #7 I don't think the government can legally deploy the Foreign Legion within France's borders, can they? What say you JFM? Other French RBâers? |
| Posted by: Secret Master 2005-11-03 15:55 |
| #6 Youths ignored an appeal for calm from President Jacques Chirac,.. Yeah, like an appeal is going to get results. If these "youths" are anything like their distant relatives in the Middle East, things will spiral even more out of control because Jacques, instead of exercising what power he does have to impose order, is displaying weakness with his "appeal for calm". |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2005-11-03 15:43 |
| #5 "Sarko has declared war on the estates, so itâs war heâs going to get" "this aint a great territory, but its the only one wes got, right? jets - "right" "when youre a jet, youre a jet all the way, from you first cigarette...... |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2005-11-03 15:41 |
| #4 âSarko has declared war on the estates, so itâs war heâs going to get,â said Mohamed, 20, the son of a Moroccan immigrant. Sidi, his friend, concurred: the suburbs had endured another night of street fighting because Nicolas Sarkozy, the Interior Minister and would-be President of France, had âdisrespectedâ the estates with his tough talk and harsh police actions. Sarko be dissin them? Give them their war. See how they like it. |
| Posted by: tu3031 2005-11-03 15:37 |
| #3 "riots over poor conditionsin Paris-area housing projects " I dont know if thats really whats driving things, but I dont think the conditions are great. Look at the pics - some (but not all) the projects look like the kinds of things American cities have been tearing down the last couple of decades. And one gets the impression the French (surprise!) really do discriminate in hiring - not that riots like this are going to help with that. All in all not a bright time for the "european social model" |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2005-11-03 15:34 |
| #2 Wonder how many poor Hindus are taking part. Are Muslims the ONLY ones who live in housing projects? |
| Posted by: PlanetDan 2005-11-03 15:26 |
| #1 eight days of riots over poor conditionsin Paris-area housing projects Poor conditions... right... |
| Posted by: Laurence of the Rats 2005-11-03 15:22 |