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Europe
Eurofadeh, Day 11
2005-11-07
Chirac Vows Arrests, Trials of Rioters
President Jacques Chirac promised Sunday to restore public order across France as unrest spread from suburban Paris to cities south and north, with rioters battling police, throwing Molotov cocktails and ramming a car into a housing project during an 11th night of mayhem.
Good idea, Jacques. So what's the plan?
About 10 police officers were injured, including two seriously, during clashes with hundreds of youths in Grigny in the Essonne region south of the capital, the Interior Ministry said. Officials believe rioters may have fired with a hunting rifle. Across the country, rioters pelted Molotov cocktails at cars and a school, and firefighters in some areas worked under police escort. New unrest was reported in Toulouse in the southwest and Rennes in the northwest.
Not to worry. Jacques is on the case. Why, any minute now, he's gonna... ummm... do something.
Chirac spoke after a security meeting of his top ministers. "The law must have the last word," Chirac said in his first public address on the violence. France is determined "to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear, and they will be arrested, judged and punished."
Starting when?
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin promised speedy trials for rioters and extra security where it was needed.
I guess that's a good idea. Though I'd maybe think about interning them on Bikini Atoll until you get around to having those speedy trials. Wouldn't want to rush things, though; justice must be done. I'd prob'ly have everything ready to go sometime around 2011 or 2012.
Depends on when Carla Del Ponte is available ...
Chirac said France was determined to promote "respect for all, justice and equal opportunities." Violence has been concentrated in poor suburbs with large immigrant populations. "But there is a precondition, a priority, I repeat," he said. "That is the restoring of security and public order."
Oh. He wants them to stop. He's not going to stop them, so they'll have to do it themselves, which'll probably be when they run out of gasoline for their Molotov cocktails or they get their way.
The French president had faced criticism from opposition politicians for not publicly speaking about France's worst civil unrest in more than a decade. His only previous comments came through a spokesman. The violence has escalated from an outburst of anger in suburban Paris housing projects into a nationwide show of disdain for French authority from youths and minorities, most French-born children of Arab and black Africans angered by years of unequal opportunities. Youths set ablaze nearly 1,300 vehicles and torched businesses, schools and symbols of French authority, including post offices and provincial police stations, late Saturday and early Sunday. The violence reached the well-guarded French capital Saturday night. Police said 35 cars were torched, most on the city's northern and southern edges. In the city center, gasoline bombs damaged three cars near Place de la Republique. Residents reported a loud explosion and flames. "We were very afraid," said Annie Partouche, 55, who watched the cars burning from her apartment window. "We were afraid to leave the building."
Well, Annie, boyz will be boyz. There's really nothing you can do, is there? Make sure you vote for Jacques and his party next time, though. I'm sure they'll take care of you one of these times...
In Evreux, 60 miles west of Paris, five police officers and three firefighters were injured in clashes with youths who destroyed at least 50 vehicles, shops and businesses, a post office and two schools, authorities said. "Rioters attacked us with baseball bats," said Philippe Jofres, a deputy fire chief, told France-2 television. "We were attacked with pick axes. It was war."
Then why the hell didn't you shoot back? Firemen have axes and fire hoses and great big trucks...
About 50 cars were burned late Sunday in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north of Paris, where the violence first broke out. Arsonists burned a school and a bus in the central city of Saint-Etienne, and transport workers went on strike.
Good move. Kinda typically French.
Much of the youths' anger has focused on law-and-order Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who inflamed passions by referring to troublemakers as "scum."
Musta hurt their feelings. I'm still trying to figure why people's feelings matter to society, rather than their behavior. Sure, it's nice if everybody's all happy and content and that sort of thing, but it seems like it'd be a hopeless task for government to ensure that they are. The best they'll ever do is to make a majority happy and content, because there will always be nutballs in the world who couldn't be happy sitting in Grandmaw's lap eating an ice cream and looking at their new ponies. It seems a far more attainable goal for government to provide a fair and moderate set of laws and then strictly enforce adherence to them, letting the individual worry about whether he/she/it is having a bad day.
In Strasbourg, youths stole a car and rammed it into a housing project, setting the vehicle and the building on fire.
I'm way too simplistic. To me, it would seem reasonable for the local gendarmerie to hunt them down and shoot them for that.
"We'll stop when Sarkozy steps down," said the defiant 17-year-old driver, identifying himself as Murat. He and several others were in police custody as smoke poured from the windows of the housing project behind them.
I do hope the police were thumping knobs on their heads, but since Murat was shooting off his mouth I'm assuming they weren't.
Arsonists burned 1,295 vehicles nationwide overnight Saturday, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said, adding that police made 349 arrests.
A polite arrest isn't a punishment. A concussion is punishment. If Murat knows he's going to get arrested and held for a short time, then let out, he's not worried. If Murat knows that when the coppers catch him they're going to crack his skull, and then arrest him when he gets out of the hospital, he's worried.
For a second night, a helicopter equipped with spotlights and video cameras to track bands of marauding youths combed Paris suburbs, and small teams of police chased rioters speeding from attack to attack in cars and on motorbikes. "What we notice is that the bands of youths are, little by little, getting more organized," arranging attacks through cell phone text messages and learning how to make gasoline bombs, Hamon said.
What I notice is that you're not shooting them down like mad dogs...
Police also found a gasoline bomb-making factory in a derelict building in Evry south of Paris. They confiscated 50 devices, fuel stocks and hoods for hiding rioters' faces, senior Justice Ministry official Jean-Marie Huet told The Associated Press. Police arrested six people, all under 18.
Where'd the hoods come from? Did somebody hold up a hooderie? Or did somebody provide them?Have the six people, all under 18, been severely slapped around to make them provide the names, addresses, and shoe sizes of the organizers?
The discovery Saturday night, he said, shows that gasoline bombs "are not being improvised by kids in their bathrooms."
Comes as a surprise, huh? I know. Floored me, too.
Police said copycat attacks are fanning the unrest but had no evidence of separate gangs coordinating. Officials said older youths, many already with police records, appear to be teaching younger teens arson techniques. Unrest extended west to Normandy and south to Nice and Cannes on the Mediterranean coast, with attacks in and around Lyon, Lille, Marseille and Strasbourg. In all, at least 3,300 buses, cars and other vehicles have been incinerated since the unrest started Oct. 27, the police spokesman said. Government officials have held a series of meetings with Muslim religious leaders, local officials and youths from poor suburbs to try to calm the violence.
Working well, isn't it? Though I'll bet a bit of state-sponsored terrorism would work better.
Posted by:Fred

#33  France must have snipers, still, non?
Posted by: Frank G   2005-11-07 22:30  

#32  On third thought (as if anyone's reading this thread anymore) I think helizapping the organizers would work and work WELL if they could find the right ones. But that's another bovine birth scenario.
Posted by: Phil   2005-11-07 22:23  

#31  Hi OP!

I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to kill a bunch of platoons of Hard Boyz (at some cost in collateral damage) IF they managed to get there in time... but I don't think the Pinkys and the Brains running the thing care about losing squads and platoons anyway.

_For this sort of attack_ the AC-130's are a poor substitute for having an armed general populace in France. I'm halfway worried that they'd end up bypassed, just like France's theoretically superior (but operationally inferior) tanks back in the Blitzkreig.

I'm not against the idea of violence per se, as a means of self defense or establishing order... it's just that I think this can be done with less collateral damage and more of a withdrawl-of-carrot type approach.

The French are unlikely to try either, IMHO. I suspect what Chirac wants to do is to blame the mess of Sarkozy, either for being too lenient, or for being provocative, or both. I suspect what they would consider optimum is a situation where Sarkozy is blamed for both, and then pushed into a large-scale violent response. That way the riots get squelched and they can blame him for both their existance and the violence needed to squelch them, a win-win situation.

(Withdrawl of benefits from those most associated with the violence and the geographic areas they control would also be against so many socialist dogmas I can imagine them all having herds of cows on the spot.)
Posted by: Phil   2005-11-07 22:00  

#30  Ya know, an AC-130 or two could end this real quick.

No, it couldn't.

Phil, I have to agree with RC on this one. It would probably take about a dozen of them, but it would certainly put an end to the entire mess. When that 105MM on the tailgate starts talking, EVERYBODY listens! Or if you rake an area with 20mm gattling guns, you lose street, housefronts, and every window up to the 55th floor - plus the floors INSIDE the buildings. Even the 7.62 miniguns can turn an entire "street" into smoking rubble in one pass. The only limits would be the amount of ammo they could carry, and how fast they can turn around. Even dumping the empty cartridges out the back would cause damage. There's no place to hide from the night-vision scopes, and they can hose down the neighborhood from 12,000, 13,000 feet - too high for most SA-7-type weapons to be effective (besides, the AC's carry flares for that kind of crap).

Rebuilding would not only be difficult, it would have to be done from the basement up.

It would be anal, it would kill both the perps and their parents, and it would result in every LLL perp in the world to go ballistic, but it would put an end to the "fighting" immediately. If you can find them, read what some of the VC say about Spectre - and we've gotten better since then.
Posted by: Old Patriot   2005-11-07 20:20  

#29  No piktures on a poster, no reward and No bail.
Posted by: Jimmuah Shipman   2005-11-07 19:43  

#28  No water. No power. No cheques.

Nobody in or out.

Have fun, boys.
Posted by: mojo   2005-11-07 16:00  

#27  All I want to know is "do they have an exit strategy?"
Posted by: Intrinsicpilot   2005-11-07 15:45  

#26  Then why the hell didn't you shoot back? Firemen have axes and fire hoses and great big trucks

Silly Imperialist American, neo-con, capitalist pig, radical cristian, Cowboy. dont you know that killing terrorist only make more terrorist, and dont you know the "cycle of violence" it is way to Nueanced than such simple black or white more of a light gray, No Pea Wee the true answer is more concesions because everyone knows that if we just make them all rich and healthy and not make them work they will not hate us anymore why just look at Saudi Arabia they are rich and peacefull right. Besides it is really all our fault so we should be punished and forced to pay reperations and concesions. Its all our great great great great grandfathers intolerance or X retard excuse on why they hate us crap self hatred. I think their is a name for kidnap victims that end up loving thier victimizer from some self laothing cycotic brain disfunction.
Posted by: C-Low   2005-11-07 14:10  

#25  Sarkozy was cracking down on their drug trade. That's why they want him out. If the French/Danes/Belgians don't stand up to this, it will very much embolden Moslems to do the same all over Europe. It's "fun" for these "youths" to riot and flex their muscle, so they're going to keep on until Daddy Takes Their T-Bird away . . . :)
Posted by: ex-lib   2005-11-07 13:51  

#24  #23 Good thing you stayed out of Iraq, Jake.
Looks like Iraq came to you instead...

Yes indeed it has. Wait till the French Left's much beloved Islamo-fascist homicide bombers make their grand entry in Gay Paree.
Posted by: The Happy Fliegerabwehrkanonen   2005-11-07 10:47  

#23  Good thing you stayed out of Iraq, Jake.
Looks like Iraq came to you instead...
Posted by: tu3031   2005-11-07 10:37  

#22  Appeasement and collaboration citizens?
Posted by: H. Petain, III   2005-11-07 10:31  

#21  Which brings to mind my suggestions about what they _should_ be doing:

* Get the military involved, to provide the cops with more manpower.

* Use that manpower to pursue an "oil drop" strategy; proactively set up small regions inside the cite's that they _do_ control and that will have law and order and slowly expand them according to traditional police or military pacification techniques. (I forget where I first read the "oil drop" or "oil spot" analogy... anyone have a convenient link?)

* The areas that are in revolt, that the gangs still control...

NO SOCIAL ASSISTANCE.


That's for groups that aren't attacking the middle class which pays most of the taxes that keeps the gravy train on the tracks. They gotta stand up and say "YOU WANT THE MILLET SYSTEM? FINE. HERE'S A FIRST STEP: THERE WASN'T ANY WELFARE IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE."

That last bit would be crucially important. IMHO.
Posted by: Phil   2005-11-07 09:43  

#20  And I use the word "squad" on purpose after much thought.
Posted by: Phil   2005-11-07 09:27  

#19  Ya know, an AC-130 or two could end this real quick.

No, it couldn't.

I think the rioters are waiting for the use of police violence in order to respond in kind, with heavy weapons. Then they can pretend they're only responding to police escalation.

Heavy strikes at one or two squads on the ground (IF they could avoid hitting friendlies) while thousands more squads are striking elsewhere wouldn't accomplish anything.

They need to have a substantial ground presence in all of the areas this is happening if they plan on countering it with force. Which pretty much means they need the army on the ground in the cite's or however they're spelled.
Posted by: Phil   2005-11-07 09:24  

#18  Ya know, an AC-130 or two could end this real quick.
Posted by: Robert Crawford   2005-11-07 08:04  

#17  You can't appease people who won't be appeased.
This is not so much a clash of civilizations
as it is a crash of civilizations, both francophone and nihilistic islam.
Posted by: Clolutle Slans5753   2005-11-07 07:51  

#16  I have found the rioters blaming Sarkozy (at least according to press accounts) to be fascinating - only a Muzlim or socialist, someone living in the abstract, totally consumed with symbols and utterly disconnected from reality, would make such a claim and expect anyone to fall for it, lol. I presume it could prove interesting, given his Presidential ambitions.
Posted by: Regnad Kcin   2005-11-07 07:49  

#15  Ok, the man who was in the coma, Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec (61), after being beaten for protesting an arson near his house has just died, that would make the first death, but so far media refuse to link it with the events. Very sad.

A 13 months baby was wounded by stones pelted at a bus; two churches were torched (a synagogue already was firebombed earlier), in addition to various public buildings (including schools and two police stations) and businesses or warehouses.

About 30 police officers were hurt, there was numerous reports of shots fired at them, resulting in two buckshot wounds in Griny (non life-threatening, they fired from afar) : ye good ol' 12 gauge pump action shotgun, le bon vieux pompeux des familles, plenty of them in France and especially in working class areas, they were sold in supermarket with no permit or declaration required until the mid 90's, with policemen exhibiting spent shells... note that some internet french msm website incorrectly talk of "pistolet à grenaille", a "pistolet à grenaille" being a replica firing shots smaller than birdshot, not a real firearm; so again, I don't know if this is voluntary to minimize the info, or just plain stoopidity).
So far the akm and the rpg have not broked out of the weapon caches, but it should be reminded they are proper work tools (attacking armored vehicles, banks, breaking accomplices out of jail like it happened last year,...) and should not be used for fun activities.

About 1000 burnt cars IIUC, plus trucks, bus,... note that As I've mentioned earlier, this is the official figure, taking in account only the initial fires and not the collaterally destroyed vehicles; thus, in a small town, local authorities reported 41 torched cars, while final official national figure published in the press was 11. So, you can probably multiply the numbers by at least 2 or 3 nation-wide.

Speaking of small town, I expressed my forum sympathies to a teen whose family had a fire starting in their small town house, and couldn't get help from the firefighters, because all of them in the department were mobilized to extinguish the multiple arsons in the next big city. Their house burned to the ground, damn.

Mayors start to ask for army intervention, or declaring the state of emergency (one police union asked for it since day two IIRC); Dominique Galouzeau "de Villepin" (who's a man) will go on teevee tonight.
The whole talk now is blaming Sarko for "provoking" the "youths", and for the teargas cannisters supposedly hurled in a mosque (it turns out not only the police say it wasn't her, but the cannister never even made it into the room), which are "of course" the real reasons for the riots.
Media are in full denial, and pols in full infighting mode, this is almost funny.

My take is gvt is playing tiem, hoping it will die out by itself, police has order not ot be proovcative.
There will be a response, but it will be appeasment and money-throwning, like I feared/knew from the start, "de Villepin" said that the "(Jean Louis) Borloo plan" (Borloo being the minister of "social cohesion"... remember this is supposedly a *conservative* gvt...) will be rushed... it involves throwing up to 25 billions euros at theses areas.
Posted by: anonymous5089   2005-11-07 07:40  

#14  Copy cat attacks in Brussels.

When one's most outrageous, hyperbolic, "get everyone's attention" attacks on Euro leadership turn out to have fallen short of the mark, one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.
Posted by: 11A5S   2005-11-07 07:39  

#13  Attacks occurring in 42 cities, sez WaPo.

Understatement of the Day Week Month:
"If we don't take the appropriate measures right away, things could get way out of proportion," said Stephane Ribou, a police spokesman in Rennes.
Posted by: Regnad Kcin   2005-11-07 07:15  

#12  Secret Master, that was the first thing that popped into my mind as well. ;-)
Posted by: twobyfour   2005-11-07 02:25  

#11  Well they are sure eating some steaming hot muzzie kak about now.
Posted by: Besoeker   2005-11-07 01:48  

#10  3dc...the problem with the French is that not only have taken eating things like snails, frogs, truffles and crow to a fine art....they really like it!
Posted by: 2b   2005-11-07 01:29  

#9  denigrate into another Black Africa andor Communist-style irrelevancy and implosion.


Is there time for popcorn?
Posted by: Besoeker   2005-11-07 01:19  

#8  the defiant 17-year-old driver, identifying himself as Murat.

Oh, so THAT'S where he went!
Posted by: Secret Master   2005-11-07 01:18  

#7  Unbelievable.

The solution is simple. 3 ideas.

1) Martial law
2) 7pm-7am curfew
3) shoot-to-kill rioters/looters

enforce immediately.

Problem solved. Possibly after pitched battle in which you should aim at the highest bodycount possible of the enemy.

Who cares if they love you. So long as they fear you.
Posted by: anon1   2005-11-07 01:17  

#6  Chirac's Lunch here
Posted by: 3dc   2005-11-07 01:14  

#5  Of course not... everybody knows gasoline and your own sewer pipes do not go well together. Esp when dad smoker on the john.
Posted by: 3dc   2005-11-07 01:07  

#4  Zenster, LOL! Took the words from my keyboard.

JM..The Muslims know that unless something changes, the entire Muslim universe is about to denigrate into another Black Africa andor Communist-style irrelevancy and implosion.
So true.
Posted by: 2b   2005-11-07 01:05  

#3  For some reason I'm reminded of BUGS BUNNY versus BLACQUE JACQUE SHELLACQUE: :"April Showers", and Dat Rabbitte is no ordinaire' rabbitte", or words to that effect. Other than making the eastern tip of EURASIA safe for Mother Sheehan and her Commie Airborne, the rioters want jobs but French = Euro-Socialism just can't unilaterally give them any no matter what the political rhetoric. The Muslims know that unless something changes, the entire Muslim universe is about to denigrate into another Black Africa andor Communist-style irrelevancy and implosion. The Mullah-ocracy has only taught them to take from others, NOT to interact, build, or learn for themselves, by and for themselves - they're screwed once whatever TEMPORARY WEALTH-CREDIBILITY they got from the forced, violent taking of the lands, wealth, women, .....@ and pet dogs, etc. of the infidels is used up.
Posted by: JosephMendiola   2005-11-07 00:59  

#2  "The law must have the last word,"

I only await to see whether or not that last word is, "surrender."
Posted by: Zenster   2005-11-07 00:53  

#1  Great comments.

into a nationwide show of disdain for French authority from youths
Posted by: 2b   2005-11-07 00:36  

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