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| Europe |
| French riots continuing to spiral out of control |
| 2005-11-08 |
| Riots in France's poor city suburbs appeared to be spiralling out of control on Monday after the worst night of violence to date, in which more than 30 police were injured and 1 400 cars burnt across the country. "The shockwave has spread from Paris to the provinces," said Michel Gaudin, director-general of the national police. For an 11th night in a row youths predominantly from France's large Arab-Muslim minority rampaged through their out-of-town neighbourhoods, setting fire to vehicles, businesses and public buildings and attacking police with stones and other projectiles. Police figures showed that 1 408 vehicles were destroyed overnight - more than previous record of 1 300 on Saturday - and 395 people arrested. Most of the cars - nearly 1 000 - were targeted in towns and cities outside Paris, reflecting the way the violence has spread from its original flashpoint. In addition 36 policemen were injured overnight - the worst figure to date - amid signs that rioters were deliberately seeking out clashes with the security forces. At Grigny in the southern Paris suburbs two police officers were hospitalised after being hit by gun-shot in what colleagues said was an ambush set by a gang of youths. "Their aim is to get us. It is to kill policemen," an officer who witnessed the incident told interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy who visited their headquarters overnight. The violence - with was sparked on October 27 by the accidental deaths of two teenagers in an electrical sub-station in a northern Paris suburb - has fanned across the country in a nightly ritual of copycat attacks by disaffected youths complaining of economic misery and social discrimination. Few regions of the country have been spared, with riots on Sunday night in the southern towns of Toulouse, Toulon and Draguignan, Strasbourg in the east and Nantes in the west. Tourist centres such as the Loire valley town of Blois and Quimper in Brittany were also hit. Even the small village of Villedieu-du-Temple, 12km from the southern town of Montauban, saw six postal vehicles destroyed. Among the targets of the rioters were churches, nursery and primary schools, town-halls and police stations as well as warehouses, car dealerships and a film-studio at Asnieres outside Paris. In the Normandy city of Rouen rioters used a car as a battering ram against a police station. Overall more than 5000 cars have been burned and more than 1 000 people arrested since the beginning of the trouble, which is the worst to hit France since the May student uprising in 1968. President Jacques Chirac intervened personally for the first time since the start of the unrest, summoning an inner cabinet meeting on Sunday evening and afterwards declaring that "the absolute priority is the re-establishment of security and public order". A leading Muslim group - the Union of Islamic Organisations in France (UOIF) - issued a fatwa or formal instruction urging Muslims not to take part in acts of violence. The group - which espouses a radical interpretation of Islam close to the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood - is the largest component of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), the official representative body for Islam in France which was set up by Sarkozy two years ago. Australia and Japan on Monday joined Britain, Canada, Russia and the United States in issuing public advisories that recommended that tourists to France exercise caution because of the violence. |
| Posted by:Dan Darling |
| #27 I'm no expert, in fact I know nothing on nothing, which explain why I'm fat and (rightly) unloved, but IIRC about 80%+ of the african immigration to France is muslim. |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2005-11-08 16:46 |
| #26 Including non-muslim african youth. This is a media myth - equating non-Arab Africans with non-muslim. AFAIK Non-arab African immigrants are overwhelmingly muslim. Maybe A5089 could confirm. |
| Posted by: phil_b 2005-11-08 16:17 |
| #25 With those stats, the jews in France don't stand a chance. Personally, I'd get out now. In another 20 years . . . think about it. These young "men" do not have a moral base, have no respect for authority, etc. Jobs, better housing, won't calm this down. It's a failure in human cultural/religious structuring from the ground up. It will only get worse. (and no, I'm not having a bad day) |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2005-11-08 16:05 |
| #24 The U.S. main stream media has yet to report that muslims are doing the rioting. They seem to be ignoring the obvious for whatever collective reason(s) they have. The french have a few good military units. The biggest problem is the screwy leadership in the government. I think the french have the capability to crack down. If they don't have the capability to respond, they have a lot of trouble on their hands. This means that basically, their country has been taken over and hamstrung by a minority that has reached a critical mass (read thugs). |
| Posted by: Youraveragesombitch 2005-11-08 15:51 |
| #23 "But the fact remains that only ethnic youths are rioting" Including non-muslim african youth. "that most of them explicitly pledge allegiance to Islam and such Muslim heroes as Osama bin Laden" A good way to shock the locals, like wearing a Malcolm X shirt here. "that the Islamic motto – Allahu Akbar ["God is great"] – is usually their war cry" Ive heard mixed reports on this - mainly that they used it some imam was telling them to behave. I havent heard they really use any war crys - they flash mob, torch, and run. "and that they submit only to archconservative or radical imams. " Any evidence that they submit to ANY imams? Or any adults, for that matter? |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2005-11-08 14:18 |
| #22 "Further evidence of the animating influence in the riots lies with the French rap music to which the perpetrators listen. Such music obsessively describes White France as a sexual prey."" A kind of music, which while out of the mainstream of French culture, is not middle eastern culture either. Its the culture of the Cites, modeled after the cynical, nihilist culture of American "ghettos". France has a cultural problem, buts it not necessarily the one we've been talking about here. |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2005-11-08 14:15 |
| #21 Wanna bet after the Police Union is ignored and the French police find themselves on the crap end of the stick on this one that enlistment goes down. That reenlistment drops. That France is in a far worse position next go around |
| Posted by: rjschwarz (no T!) 2005-11-08 14:02 |
| #20 The statistics above are chilling when considering; from 5089's post "Since war is essentially the business of youths, the combatant ratio in any ethnic war may thus be one to one." That is really scary. You all got a really big problem on your hands and money is not going to solve it. I see partitioning in your future. On the other hand, maybe Bolton needs to refer the matter to the UN, for giggles of course! |
| Posted by: TomAnon 2005-11-08 14:00 |
| #19 I wonder if the Basque people are paying attention. In the meantime, my impression of the media and official response really is "give them more money" (first 5 billions euros, then 25 billions in the Borloo plan)... after all, liek the socialists said, they are "fragiel populations" : |
| Posted by: plainslow 2005-11-08 13:31 |
| #18 wonder if Kofi Amman still thinks Islamophobia is because of our ignorance of Islam |
| Posted by: mhw 2005-11-08 12:16 |
| #17 interesting 5089. Seems our past ideas of "France" are no longer valid. |
| Posted by: 2b 2005-11-08 12:14 |
| #16 From one of my ML. The statistical bit is quite credible, there are reports 35% of births in France are from non-european parents. The "muslim car" thingie is true too (straight form people who live or lived in big cities, where is not a bad idea to let a hand of fatima hang from the rearview mirror, it really is supposed to avoid many problems even in nomral times), and the gangsta rap imagery ("France is a whore, let's f*ck her", "french men are unmanly and homosexuals", "french wimmin are sl*ts who loves arabs and blacks") is spot on... of course, that kind of music is protected by the society (justice doens't follow people who sue them for antiwhite racism, big music retailers such as the trotskyt-founded Fnac offer them a large exposure,...). "Statistiques inquietantes, au vu des emeutes de ces derniers jours ... Le New York Sun aujourd'hui ( faut une inscription ) : It is one thing to know in theory that France has undergone major ethnic changes over the past 30 years and another thing altogether to confront a mass ethnic insurgency. The figures are inescapable. There are about 60 million inhabitants in continental France, plus 2 million citizens in the overseas territories (essentially the French West Indies and La Reunion island in the Indian Ocean). About 20 million, most of them white and Christian, are over 50 Out of the remaining 40 million or so, 10 million or so belong to the ethnic minorities: Muslim North Africans, Muslim Turks or Near Easterners, Muslim Black Africans, Christian West Indian, African or Reunionese blacks. When one regards to the youngest age brackets, the proportion is even larger. It is estimated that 35% of all French inhabitants under 20, and 50% of all inhabitants in the major urban centers, belong to the ethnic minorities. Islam alone may claim respectively 30% and 45%. Since war is essentially the business of youths, the combatant ratio in any ethnic war may thus be one to one. Which brings us to a second question: How ethnic is the present violence in France? Liberal commentators, both in France and abroad, tend to say that poverty and unemployment, rather than race or religion, are the driving force behind the riots. [Prime Minister Dominique de]Villepin himself tends to share this view, at least in part. He said yesterday on TV that he is earmarking enormous credits for housing rehabilitation, education, and state-supported jobs in the areas where the unrest has developed. But the fact remains that only ethnic youths are rioting, that most of them explicitly pledge allegiance to Islam and such Muslim heroes as Osama bin Laden, that the Islamic motto – Allahu Akbar ["God is great"] – is usually their war cry, and that they submit only to archconservative or radical imams. The fact also remains, according to many witnesses, that the rioters torch only "white" cars, meaning white owned cars, and spare "Islamic" or "black" ones. One way to discriminate between them is to look for ethnic signs like a sticker with Koranic verses or a picture of the Kaaba in Mekka or a stylized map of Africa. Further evidence of the animating influence in the riots lies with the French rap music to which the perpetrators listen. Such music obsessively describes White France as a sexual prey." |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2005-11-08 11:22 |
| #15 Fear not! I hear that Chirac has been in meetings almost every day since the riots began. How long does it take to realize that they need to kick ass and take names? |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2005-11-08 10:54 |
| #14 Some pics http://www.forum-resistance.net/index.php?showtopic=11762 A vid (in french, but the "allah u akbar" at 8' are in arabic...) http://www.netwerk.tv/templates/videoasx.jsp?f=198614 |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2005-11-08 10:04 |
| #13 The gvt is simply hoping this will dry out by itself (and this will, too), the police apparently has orders not to be "provocative" so there isn't any casualty among the rioters that would really "inflame" them. In the meantime, my impression of the media and official response really is "give them more money" (first 5 billions euros, then 25 billions in the Borloo plan)... after all, liek the socialists said, they are "fragiel populations" : - enforce affirmative action (like the possibility of joining the administration without passing an exam... not only is the administration in france bloated beyond comprehension, but this is also an insult to average, non car-burning youths) - renewing the subventions to non-profit orgs ( France already gives about 800 millions euros to non profits orgs a year IIRC?, a large majority of theses being trotskyst or socialist fronts, btw) - tripling the scholarships in theses areas (again, where's the justice for non car-burning youths?) Etc, etc... This "social treatment" has been ongoing for 30 years, and it is estimated about 40 billions euros were invested in theses areas, notably building infrastructures which are repeatedly burned to the ground. This has failed before, this will fail again, this doesn't adress the true problems : - an arabo/african-muslim identity in secession from the mainstream french identity, - an unbridled, uncontrolled settlement immigration (300-500 000 a year not counting children, almost as many as the USA IIRC, a country 5x more populous, with only 5% of theses coming to work, official figure, while the others come to enjoy benefit). - a socialist/statist/corporatist economical and social model that produces low social mobility, high unemployement and low growth, and a population that gets poorer by the year. - the failure of the rule of law (crime is rampant, justice is way too laxist, adminsitrations don't enforce their rules when it comes ot "sensitive" populations, example the polygamous muslim families, theorically forbidden, but who nonetheless earns thousands of euros of family benefits each month),... all this while legal enforcement is castrated by the power, and only gets support when it comes to cracking down on taxpayers. - a general breakdown of society, values,... I repeat myself, but... France : *Statist since the 1945 pact between gaullist and communists (who to this day own public sector and education). *Progressive since the 60's. *Technocratic since 1974 (when the oligarchy seized power and tweaked democracy to its needs). *Immigrationnsit since the 1976 law on migrant family reunion, which turned a work immigration into a settlement immigration (this was of course the brainchild of, you guessed it, none other than Jacques Shiraq, the man who has personified french politics for the last 30 years). *Socialist since 1981 (in one form or another, since the "conservatives" goversn exactly like the socialists... the whole french political landscape is incredibly shifted to the left anyway, "conservative" Shiraq is to the left of Blair or Schroëder). *Globalist since 1993. *Dhimmi since 2002. |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2005-11-08 10:03 |
| #12 I'm starting to think that the longer this goes on, the more and more likely it will restart (assuming it is stopped in the first place at some point) on each and every little "provocation" in the future. Now that's the rioters have had fun and I'm sure they feel in control and can do anything they like, anything less than an absolute crackdown will be seen by them as a green light to fire this back up any time they want in the future. |
| Posted by: Laurence of the Rats 2005-11-08 09:45 |
| #11 But Villepin dismissed growing calls for army intervention, saying: "We have not reached that point." "We'll wait until 10,000 cars are torched before we do something!" |
| Posted by: Raj 2005-11-08 09:07 |
| #10 The French government is beyond foolish. They'll beget only more headaches for the effort. If they are allowed to continue along the line taken they will be well on the way to dismantling the France they profess to defend. It's the average Frenchman who will suffer the ultimate burden of this idiocy. |
| Posted by: MunkarKat 2005-11-08 08:47 |
| #9 Debka's analysis salt as you please |
| Posted by: 3dc 2005-11-08 08:42 |
| #8 I'm wondering if the French lack of response isn't a simple "Give them enough Rope" strategy. I sincerely hope so, then when the machine guns are unleashed there will be a far less backlash against the Government than the rioters want. Plus getting as many of the rioters out in the open to crush all at one time. If this is the idea, tonight should be very bloody. |
| Posted by: Redneck Jim 2005-11-08 08:33 |
| #7 How about busting some fucking heads? That usually puts a stop to shit like that fairly quick. You can't stop a town full of rioters by being a spineless pussy. If force and violence is all they can understand, then learn to speak their language. I think the Foreign Legion is fluent in that particular dialect |
| Posted by: bigjim-ky 2005-11-08 07:41 |
#6 Interesting comments from New Zealandf TVWhile mayors of riot-hit towns welcomed the tougher line, some asked what another measure announced by Villepin - extended powers for them - would actually mean in practice. While last nigh was the first not worse than the previous, at least in Paris, it appears the French have admitted defeat and are prepared to reward the The word muslim in English means surrender. France is almost fully muslim. |
| Posted by: Pherong Sneamp6845 2005-11-08 07:00 |
| #5 Can't see it happening,Mac.The only official I've seen so far calling for the use of the military is the head of the police union. |
| Posted by: raptor 2005-11-08 06:58 |
| #4 Fde, You may well have a point there. I'm sure there are a few French soldiers who remember that they actually have a proud military heritage and who are absolutely disgusted with the craven behavior of the politicians. Had anyone else but DeGaulle been President in 1960 there would almost certainly have been a military coup. I'm not at all current with the state of French military thinking but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a fair number of officers thinking it's long past time for a cleaning of the Augean stables that are France's political classes. If that happens, look for lots of boats full of Muzzy arsonist parents headed back to the Maghreb--and lots of their dead offspring buried anonymously in mass graves. Multiculti in Europe is coming to a screeching halt and about to slam head-on into reverse. |
| Posted by: mac 2005-11-08 06:21 |
| #3 Yesterday's news, today. |
| Posted by: Bobby 2005-11-08 05:33 |
| #2 Dunno about Euros. Cops have to take molotov-coctail bombs and giant bolders, while they cower behind glass shields and tread lightly. The terror won't end until an effective response is allowed. And the most dedicated cops will take early retirement. I recall a certain conversation that I had with a Greek soldier in 1974. I wonder what the frog colonels are thinking... |
| Posted by: Fde Fda 2005-11-08 03:16 |
| #1 Well Duh! Has the French Govt given them any compelling reason to stop? |
| Posted by: .com 2005-11-08 03:13 |