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| Iraq | |
| Bigger Bullets Prove Better | |
| 2005-11-18 | |
| November 18, 2005: In Iraq and Afghanistan, the troops have been finding that, when it comes to bullets, bigger is better. The .50 caliber (12.7mm) machine-gun, and the single shot 12.7mm Barrett sniper rifle, have been very useful. Both are very accurate weapons (in the hands of trained and experienced troops), and the heavy .50 caliber bullet will stop most threats (especially suicide car bombers.) At checkpoints, there are lots, probably hundreds, of suicide car bomb attempts you never hear about, because a .50 caliber machine-gun, or sniper rifle, took out the bomber. Even though the suicide car drivers have taken to wearing protective vests, and even armoring parts of their cars, that doesnât stop those .50 caliber bullets. The M2 (âMa Deuceâ) machine-guns are often equipped with night sights, for many suicide car bombing attempts are made at night. Ma Deuce with a night sight and an attentive gunner is usually the worst possible news for a suicide car bomber. Interestingly, the Iraqis never seem to learn about the effectiveness of the .50 caliber weapons. The .50 caliber sniper rifles regularly hit targets, with just one shot, 2,000 meters away. Iraqi terrorists planning can often be quite thorough and meticulous. But the long range and hard hitting power of the weapon continues to surprise terrorists moving about, believing they are out of range.
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| Posted by:Steve |
| #21 I killed an elk at 290 yards one time - the only shot I got the entire day. Hit him in the shoulder with a Winchester 30-30, broke the shoulder bone and punctured his lungs. Finished him off with a .22 at 4 feet. I do ok, but I'm not sniper quality. I saw some German snipers practicing on a range one day - the target was at 500M, and they were hitting 4 out of 5 in a 25mm circle from a prone position with a bipod and a tiny scope I could hardly see through. I wouldn't put anything past the Marine snipers with adequate weaponry. |
| Posted by: Old Patriot 2005-11-18 23:41 |
| #20 Come on now, what the use of having hi-tech superiority and dominance, espec lateral, telescopic, and remote tech, etc. if we're not gonna use it. |
| Posted by: JosephMendiola 2005-11-18 23:38 |
| #19 That shotgun is the AA12. Google it and you will find a few reviews about the lack of recoil. |
| Posted by: Shieldwolf 2005-11-18 22:19 |
| #18 Actually, there is a functional 12 gauge fully automatic weapon that is being used by SOCOM and evaluated by the Marines. The recoil is controlled via a patented recoil system involving springs and a compensator. All reports on that weapon says that the recoil is mild enough for multi-shot bursts using a single hand to control the weapon. So, a bit more development and really big explosive sniper rounds like 25mm become practical. |
| Posted by: Shieldwolf 2005-11-18 22:16 |
| #17 Whiskey Mike, 25mm rifle? That's over 1 inch diameter, isn't it? What is the kick on that going to be? Sounds like a free trip to the orthopedic surgeon to me. |
| Posted by: Sheager Grigum5343 2005-11-18 19:06 |
| #16 Edward Yee; I agree that the "Chevy vs Ford", "5.56 vs 7.62 vs ..." etc stuff is pretty much bullshit as espoused by most. BUT, it is a fact that the 7.62 carries farther, with more effective retained energy, than a 5.56. Make no mistake; I loved my M-16. I also loved the M-1 that I scrounged up(.30-06 and not 7.62, admittedly) and later my XM-21 (a nicely prepped M-14 in 7.62 with mainly a good trigger and a damned fine scope). It's all about carry and retained energy. And the accuracy of the shooter. Don't let the BS get to you As well, don't ignore basic facts. Opinion: I think 25mm sniper rifles are in the loop. |
| Posted by: Whiskey Mike 2005-11-18 18:21 |
| #15 Re sniper versions of 20mm and 25mmm - Broken shoulders and strained backs ? I did not mean to emply that it needed to be a shoulder fired weapon. Perhaps on a tripod or wheeled carraige with some sort of recoil mechanism to bring it back into battery and really good sighting capability |
| Posted by: Cheaderhead 2005-11-18 16:58 |
| #14 C-Low, if your source for that rumor is that "Marine's assessment of small arms" E-mail, then disregard it; that thing is bogus, contradicted by actual military personnel I've spoken with (Navy SEAL, Marine, Army), and just laden with "red meat" feeding memes like "MSM sucks" in hopes we'll gobble them up enough to ignore the inaccuracies, like a sort of 'reverse troll'. WANNA BET??????? ARMYGUY, while we can't bet it with anything, certainly I "wanna bet" that as Glenmore said, "they're good but not that good." The article clearly states that the OPFOR tried hard ("planning can often be quite thorough and meticulous"), but unless declassified 'kill demographics' are released, I wonder if it's the 7.62mm and 5.56mm gunners that are getting more of the "stops," as this would explain why the Army is buying up millions of AP rounds in both calibers. mmurray821, source on those stories? I'm getting tired of this "5.56mm sucks / 7.62mm rules" claptrap... |
| Posted by: Edward Yee 2005-11-18 16:49 |
| #13 "Hell, I coulda told 'em that!" -- Jayne Cobb |
| Posted by: mojo 2005-11-18 15:42 |
| #12 As for the Canuck holding a record with a 2400 yd shot, if you read the Hathcock book, his spotter claimed Carlos had a kill over 2500 yds - on a moving target - a VC on a bicycle packed with ammo and food, IIRC. :-) |
| Posted by: .com 2005-11-18 13:34 |
| #11 C-Low, I think Carlos (white feather) would smile. Hathcock, Hancock, what's a coupla letters among professionals, heh. Yeah, he'd smile and wish him well. :-) |
| Posted by: .com 2005-11-18 13:27 |
| #10 psychohilbilly: I second! Any discussion on the motion? All in favor, say "aye!" There is a Croatian 20mm sniper rifle. It has the same basic problem as the later WWII antitank rifles--arm-wrenching, shoulder-breaking recoil. The Croats tried to solve the problem with a gas operated "counter-recoil" system--which seems to give it a firing signature like an old recoilless rifle. |
| Posted by: Mike 2005-11-18 13:21 |
| #9 Re sniper versions of 20mm and 25mmm - Broken shoulders and strained backs ? |
| Posted by: buwaya 2005-11-18 12:14 |
| #8 7 Just think what a sniper version of the 20MM or the 25MM Bushmaster would do. CLEANUP! Aisle 6! |
| Posted by: AlmostStupid5839 2005-11-18 11:45 |
| #7 Just think what a sniper version of the 20MM or the 25MM Bushmaster would do. |
| Posted by: Cheaderhead 2005-11-18 11:17 |
| #6 I'd like to take this opportunity to nominate Ronnie Barrett for the position of Minor Deity in the Gun World...just below John Moses Browning and Samuel Colt. Do I hear a second? |
| Posted by: psychohillbilly 2005-11-18 10:44 |
| #5 The concept of longer range shots has not yet become accepted among them. Probally just think Ahman was hit by a stray celebration bullet from across town. Don't realize it's intentional. |
| Posted by: plainslow 2005-11-18 10:28 |
| #4 OHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHH they are that GOOOOD http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/478-1501.asp 7.62 950 yards / 50cal 2450 yards Thier is alsa a rumor that a Marine sniper in the Anbar region has passed Carlos's record over 100kills HooRaah |
| Posted by: C-Low 2005-11-18 10:12 |
| #3 The concept of longer range shots has not yet become accepted among them. There are many stories of a terrorist sniper shooting at soldiers, but not hitting anything farther than 200m. Our snipers will come out at 230m, set up in the middle of the road and take out the terrorist. The whole neighborhood goes quiet after that. Kills terrorists and good phyops. HOORAH!! |
| Posted by: mmurray821 2005-11-18 10:10 |
| #2 WANNA BET??????? |
| Posted by: ARMYGUY 2005-11-18 10:05 |
| #1 "...regularly hit targets, with just one shot, 2,000 meters away." Sorry guys, they're good, but not that good. |
| Posted by: Glenmore 2005-11-18 09:57 |