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| Southeast Asia |
| Ex -Prez of Indonesia says Islam doesn't have to be violent |
| 2006-05-23 |
| Extremism Isn't Islamic Law By Kyai Haji Abdurrahman Wahid Tuesday, May 23, 2006; Page A17 For a few days this year the world's media focused an intense spotlight on the drama of a modern-day inquisition. Abdul Rahman, a Muslim convert to Christianity, narrowly escaped the death penalty for apostasy when the Afghan government -- acting under enormous international pressure -- sidestepped the issue by ruling that he was insane and unfit to stand trial. This unsatisfactory ruling left unanswered a question of enormous significance: Does Islam truly require the death penalty for apostasy, and, if not, why is there so little freedom of religion in the so-called Muslim world? The Koran and the sayings of the prophet Muhammad do not definitively address this issue [Because, I suppose, they go only 99% of the way]. In fact, during the early history of Islam, the Agreement of Hudaibiyah between Muhammad and his rivals stipulated that any Muslim who converted out of Islam would be allowed to depart freely to join the non-Muslim community [the most recent piece of enlightened thought on the subject happened 14 centuries ago]. Nevertheless, throughout much of Islamic history, Muslim governments embraced an interpretation of Islamic law that imposes the death penalty for apostasy. It is vital that we differentiate between the Koran, from which much of the raw material for producing Islamic law is derived, and the law itself. While its revelatory inspiration is divine, Islamic law is man-made and thus subject to human interpretation and revision. For example, in the course of Islamic history, non-Muslims have been allowed to enter Mecca and Medina. Since the time of the caliphs, however [this bit of moderate Islam ended thirteen centuries ago], Islamic law has been interpreted to forbid non-Muslims from entering these holy cities. .. Muslim theologians must revise their understanding of Islamic law [actually the law would have to be changed in all 4 judicial schools of the Sunni and all 4 of the the schools of the Shia - but how hard could that be], and recognize that punishment for apostasy is merely the legacy of historical circumstances and political calculations stretching back to the early days of Islam. Another islamic apologist gets his blather in the WaPo |
| Posted by:mhw |
| #34 In the direction of non-terrorism, that is. |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2006-05-23 18:02 |
| #33 Not sure if they're "Nazis" Zenster, or just lower intelligence types. However, the point that the blabber-mouth mullahs NEVER walk the talk, is a good one. Follow the money/power. They love both. "Pick and choose" will only happen if the majority of Moslems exercise some self-determination regarding their culture and as individuals--but they'll have to organize to get it across and have a voice. Not sure if it can happen, but everything in that direction is okay with me. |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2006-05-23 18:02 |
| #32 To accept their term "moderate" means that you'll have to recognise also their rights to be immoderate iow, extreme. FO. |
| Posted by: Duh! 2006-05-23 16:53 |
| #31 Seven Indonesian Bird Flu Cases Linked to Patients:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aWESsJvt6CFE&refer=asia- possible human-to-human transmission of the H5N1 virus. |
| Posted by: Duh! 2006-05-23 16:51 |
| #30 Youve taken a poll RC? Seems to me the ones jumping up and down about killing a convert, were in Afghanistan, which is not the most advanced place in the modern world. And even there, some folks were quite embarrased by the proposed DP, and were happy to have the guy leave the country. |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2006-05-23 16:45 |
| #29 Preach it, RC! So-called Moderate Muslims™ have done f&ck all to change the course of Islam since 9-11. Please note that it isn't the imams or mullahs whose sons and daughters are 'sploding themselves. Nearly all of the suicide murderers come from Moderate Muslim™ families. For all they do, Moderate Muslims™ may as well be Moderate Nazis™. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2006-05-23 16:42 |
| #28 I got an idea, LH -- let's watch what Muslims do. So far, a hell of a lot of them have been doing what the nasty bits in the Koran say. The ones that aren't doing it don't seem to be bothered by it, or are supporting the ones who do it. Even odder -- the ones not doing it seem real quick to threaten to do it if they feel it'll get them something. They sure don't object when their religious leaders preach all the nasty stuff. |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2006-05-23 16:28 |
| #27 *than* |
| Posted by: 6 2006-05-23 16:18 |
| #26 Not certain if the pick 'n choose model will work with Islam. Less likely Buffet Bushido. Hope I'm wrong. |
| Posted by: 6 2006-05-23 16:07 |
| #25 So, the MSM are going to expose the radical side of Islam and urge a moderation and shame the radicals into changing their ways. Shuurrrrrr. |
| Posted by: wxjames 2006-05-23 15:56 |
| #24 Anyone who is against an innocuous form of Islam taking control of the Islamic world is more stupid than I would think possible. Let the moderate Indonesians lead the way OUT of Arab-controlled Islam. I prefer a "pick and choose" version of Islam that allows people to edit Islam down (rather, up) to an acceptable form that rejects terrorism, masogyeny and FGM, abuse of children, etc. "While its revelatory inspiration is divine, Islamic law is man-made and thus subject to human interpretation and revision." Yeah -- let's go for revision. Remember that people are people, and especially outside the Malaysian/Arab model, a revision toward sanity is possible. Better than what we've got going on now, right? |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2006-05-23 14:45 |
| #23 LH with respect to apostasy, the Koran has contradictory assertions but more toward the 'death to apostate' side and these nasty ones are thought to be chronologically later with respect to practise, death to apostasy has been the judicial norm for 1300 years but has been enforced unevenly; in the Umayyad period, it was not enforced (most of the great scholars of the Caliphate were non moslems or non believers); in non moslem countries or during periods were moslem rule was weak or where moslem rulers were under pressure from infidel countries the rule was also generally not enforced yes it is a mixed bag, but the death to apostates law is firmly and universally held throughout the Islamic Law depts in every University throughout the Islamic world (including, I'm willing to bet, in Indonesia). |
| Posted by: mhw 2006-05-23 13:02 |
| #22 Bingo! L.H. hit's the bullseye again! |
| Posted by: Mike N. 2006-05-23 13:01 |
| #21 If it truly was a religion of peace, you would'nt have to convince your own believers that it was. |
| Posted by: plainslow 2006-05-23 12:41 |
| #20 Let me get this straight. If the Koran says something nasty, but muslim practice the last 1300 years has been different, then we are to ignore the practice, and focus on the Koran text, cause thats "authentic" Islam, but if the Koran says something moderate, while Islamic practice the last 1300 years has been nasty, we should discount Koran? |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2006-05-23 12:38 |
| #19 The question is whether he and others like him can gain sufficient influence and traction within the Ummah to prevent the sort of massive open conflict we've been debating here at RB the last few days. I doubt they can until we either succeed in making Iraq a model for them or we Shermanize them. But I'm happy to let them try and wish them the best until then. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-05-23 12:15 |
| #18 I agree, cingold. |
| Posted by: lotp 2006-05-23 12:13 |
| #17 As long as the site isn't overwhelmed with connections, this site, Jaringan Islam Liberal, represents the kind of tolerant thought being espoused by President Wahid, which really is the prevailing theological bent of most Indonesians. One can hope that it reforms the Islamic world. |
| Posted by: cingold 2006-05-23 12:00 |
| #16 Ex -Prez of Indonesia says Islam doesn't have to be violent [Julius Hibbert] And hillbillys want to be called "sons of the soil", but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. [/Julius Hibbert] |
| Posted by: Zenster 2006-05-23 11:39 |
| #15 So if their murder and bombing rates decline we can sleep sounder next year. I'm betting all hell will break loose before any moderation can be measured. |
| Posted by: wxjames 2006-05-23 11:14 |
| #14 The Oil Princes will diminish over the next few decades, but Indonesia has vast natural resources and a population that hasn't quite been beaten into giving up local control and customs. It's also one of the most populous muslim countries and its demographics are young. Means that any influences to encourage tolerance and moderation there could have a big positive impact on the whole region and on the global economy. Worth supporting, then. |
| Posted by: lotp 2006-05-23 10:47 |
| #13 Ex-Prez Walid's statements represent a more honest appraisal then we've gotten in the past from CAIR-like Islamic apologists. Walid admits, more or less, that death has been the penalty for apostasy since the later years of the Ommiad phase of the caliphate. Most Islamic apologists won't admit that. He also (in the full version) admits to the fact of moslem on moslem murder on a massive scale (again most apologists won't admit this). Of course, it is sad that we have to celebrate incremental movement toward factual truth, but that's the way it is. |
| Posted by: mhw 2006-05-23 10:42 |
| #12 He's a politician, and his lips are moving. Therefore... This brings up another point, democracy is based on freedom. If I can't change my mind (about my religious beliefs) I have NO freedom. Therefore... |
| Posted by: wxjames 2006-05-23 10:35 |
| #11 Maybe ... or maybe he's not happy about the way in which Arab-based salafism is changing his country for the worse. |
| Posted by: lotp 2006-05-23 10:21 |
| #10 He is an ex-president. It is like having an ex-footballer hawking insurance. You recognise the face but know he doesn't believe in what he is selling. |
| Posted by: Fordesque 2006-05-23 10:20 |
| #9 I agree with Tipper ... this guy represents what many here have been calling for, a reformed Islam. The question is whether he and others like him can gain sufficient influence and traction within the Ummah to prevent the sort of massive open conflict we've been debating here at RB the last few days. I'm not sure they can -- but that's no reason to fail to see a reformed Muslim when he does speak out. |
| Posted by: lotp 2006-05-23 10:16 |
| #8 Ways to complete the headline: "Ex -Prez of Indonesia says Islam doesn't have to be violent... but it helps!" "Ex -Prez of Indonesia says Islam doesn't have to be violent... but we sure act like it does!" "Ex -Prez of Indonesia says Islam doesn't have to be violent... but then we wouldn't be following Mohammed!" |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2006-05-23 10:00 |
| #7 "Sex isn't necessarily dirty - but it is if you're doing it right." -- Woody Allen |
| Posted by: mojo 2006-05-23 09:59 |
| #6 Ex -Prez of Indonesia on high-grade acid. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2006-05-23 09:53 |
| #5 Either he's practicing Taquia, or he's an appostate, and will be killed. |
| Posted by: gromgoru 2006-05-23 09:36 |
| #4 So let me get this straight, Islam is a religion of "Peace and Love"TM. They all say the same thing. What I see is a misogynistic, nihilistic, death cult that has all the peace and love of Nazi facism. They have all the reason and willingness to compromise as Stalin. And they have all the respect for life as Pol Pot. Then one out of 5,000,000 tries to lay this "peace and love" shit on us. |
| Posted by: bigjim-ky 2006-05-23 09:25 |
| #3 If all muslims were like him, Islam wouldn't be a problem. |
| Posted by: tipper 2006-05-23 09:11 |
| #2 The sun doesn't have to rise in the east tomorrow, either. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-05-23 08:48 |
| #1 This is a two edged sword for Islam. It works to help fool the Dhimmis and to keep them sedated, but it also works on the Muslims too. I'm not so sure this is a bad thing. |
| Posted by: 2b 2006-05-23 08:41 |