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India-Pakistan
Paks seethe over Pope's remarks
2006-09-15
Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Pakistan on Thursday criticised Pope Benedict’s remarks against Islam, and urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer. “It is very unfortunate that a religious leader of his stature is issuing statements that can fan religious disharmony,” said Khurshid Ahmed, head of the Institute of Policy Studies in Islamabad. Pope Benedict XVI hit out at Islam and the concept of jihad in a speech in Germany on Tuesday, citing a 14th century Christian emperor who said that Prophet Mohammed (PTUI PBUH) had brought the world “evil and inhuman” things.

“Instead of bringing Islam and Christianity closer, he is straining relations between the two religions. Such views can be exploited by people trying to malign Islam,” he added.

JUI leader Hafiz Hussain Ahmed said, “The pope is a respected personality for Christians, and Muslims as well. He should not lower his stature by giving Bush-like statements.” “The pope’s statement is highly irresponsible,” said Islamic scholar Javed Ahmed Ghamdi. “The concept of jihad is not to spread Islam with sword,” Ghamdi said in a statement.

Police in Kashmir seized newspapers on Thursday carrying the pope’s remarks, fearing a Muslim backlash in the area. The pope’s spokesperson said the pope respected Islam, but rejected violence motivated by religion. “It was not his intention to do an in-depth study of jihad, or hurt Muslim,” said Father Federico Lombardi in a statement.
Posted by:Fred

#36  Perhaps we could kill the zealots with mass heart attacks if we all simultaneously insult Islam. How about 8 O'clock tonight?

I'll drink to that!
Posted by: Zenster   2006-09-15 20:13  

#35  Gorb 5 and John 9-You're hot tonight!

Ms. Fallaci-You were a Cassandra. Thank you.

Fine, I'll acknowledge the important PAST contributions from Islamic societies. Doesn't change the fact that their latest, greatest contributions are religious tyranny and human splatter. It should be obvious and reasonable to ANY person that acts such as execution for apostasy, genital mutilation, "honor" killings, and suicide bombings are against the human good.
Posted by: Jules   2006-09-15 20:12  

#34  I think we can safely say that the teenage male Pakistanis burning the effigy of the Pope (as shown on Drudge Report today) have contributed nothing to architecture, algebra, or cuisine. Just consider how pathetic it is that a few cartoons or a few words from an old man in Germany can whip them into such a frenzy. Perhaps we could kill the zealots with mass heart attacks if we all simultaneously insult Islam. How about 8 O'clock tonight?
Posted by: Darrell   2006-09-15 17:44  

#33  But thank Allan for those Islamic alchemists!
Posted by: Al Coholic   2006-09-15 16:38  

#32  The facts that the Arabs were at a world crossroads and plundered the coasts from India to Africa for both spices and slaves should not give them credit for "subtle and distinctive spices that were light years ahead of European cooking". Europe was no semi-tropical spice plantation and was not sitting at the crossroads of world trade, so perhaps the lack of spices in European cooking had more to do with hostile Islam sitting in the way. The Europeans certainly embraced spices once they were able to sail around Islam.

Okay, maybe Muslims discovered coffee around 800 A.D., but that was pretty early in Muslim history and it's about the only thing that made it into this history of cooking:
http://www.geocities.com/napavalley/6454/history2.html
Posted by: P. Al Dente   2006-09-15 16:13  

#31  "The development of algebra is outlined in these notes under the following headings: Egyptian algebra, Babylonian algebra, Greek geometric algebra, Diophantine algebra, Hindu algebra, Arabic algebra, European algebra since 1500, and modern algebra."

"In algebra the Arabs contributed first of all the name. The word "algebra" come from the title of a text book in the subject, Hisab al-jabr w'al muqabala, written about 830 by the astronomer/ mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi."

"Although the language was Arabic many of the scholars were Greeks, Christians, Persians, or Jews. Their most valuable contribution was the preservation of Greek learning through the middle ages..."

Source: http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~sxw8045/history.htm

Posted by: Al Giberish   2006-09-15 15:57  

#30  The concept of Zero and its use as a placeholder in a positional form of number representation came from the Hindus. The Arabs learned it there and transmitted it to Europe.

Discourse and poetry?? Both the Greeks and especially the Romans had strong traditions in both, including rather refined poetic forms and strong literary critical theories about rhetoric and effective writing and discourse. Both well before Mohammed was born.

As for arches, a lot depends on what you mean by "arch". There were barrel vaults (semicircular arches) built by the Etruscans (later absorbed into the Roman culture) 2600 years ago. That predates the entry of the Indo-Aryans into what became Persia/Iran by about 600 years.

The Romans invented the keystone arch, which is significantly stronger in terms of the weight it can hold above it, for less stone and footprint. The ogee (pointed) arch did appear in Persia fairly early, as in several other places as well.


The Harappa cultures on the Indian subcontinent were doing irrigation about 5000 years ago, well before the Indo-Aryans entered what is now Persia. And of course Persians did not become Muslim until 2700 years after that entry ....

Similarly, the Romans had very sophisticated irrigation systems for agriculture, including the aquaducts that brought water hundreds of miles with remarkably little loss.
Posted by: lotp   2006-09-15 15:42  

#29  No one's doing anything but pointing out what Islam teaches and what its followers do.

Demonization, yes.

Incidentally, before the fundamentalists derailed all Muslim progress, their contributions to this world were quite profound. Some of the first detailed medical texts came from the Middle East. Agricultural irrigation, algebra, the concept of "zero" (which they've taken a bit too far), elaborate cooking recipes, complex multi-course meals and defined cuisine that includes the use of both subtle and distinctive spices that were light years ahead of European cooking.

Poetry and discourse in writing. Astronomy and other observational sciences were brought to peaks in their time. A huge number of the standard mechanical devices, especially hydraulically driven ones are of Muslim design. This includes the more complex reciprocating motion mechanics the create reverse force from the original direction of motion. The Persian invention of the architectural arch precedes the Roman masonary arch by centuries.

All of this essentially came to a grinding halt over a millennia ago when rigid fundamentalism overtook Islam. Since then it has stagnated into the corrupt, repressive and theocratic pile of steaming horsesh!t that we see today.
Posted by: Zenster   2006-09-15 15:36  

#28  Focus Muzzies! It's all about cartoons, remember? Here's a Larson sure to endear them, assuming they can figure it out, LOL.
Posted by: flyover   2006-09-15 14:13  

#27  And al-Gorythmn gave us the backbeat that you can't lose.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-09-15 13:51  

#26  ... and Al Khwarizmi gave us the basic mathematical methods of addition, subtraction, multiplication and division .
Posted by: bool   2006-09-15 13:46  

#25  They passed on 0123456789 to the west from Hindus in India... so at best they made a good middleman.
Posted by: bool   2006-09-15 13:37  

#24  Partially true, but not mainly true.

Much was saved in the eastern Orthodox monasteries. Much was saved in the Irish monastaries and other places on the fringes of the old empire.
Posted by: lotp   2006-09-15 13:05  

#23  Okay RBers I have heard of ONE good thing that Muslims have been credited with.

Am I, or my sources, deluded?


The Muslims did preserve much of the knowledge of the Ancients (greeks, romans, etc.) in libraries while Europe dropped into the dark ages.

The Christian monestaries did good work in this too, but, much of what they started with came through the Muzzies, especially in Spain.

Right or Wrong?
Posted by: AlanC   2006-09-15 12:58  

#22  I suppose that when the hijackings, suicide bombings, kidnapings, beheadings, Jew extermination attempts, slavery, piracy, and subjugation of women settle down, we'll all realize that the Pope was just a trouble-maker. So it's up to these seething Muslims to get their religion under control before those of us with less-Christian dispositions than the Pope's have to take action to end Muslim history.

I could be more sympathetic if I could think of even one productive contribution to the world by
Mohammed's minions, but so far they've had 1,400 years with nothing to show for it. Islam is a totalitarian, loser philosophy that hasn't brought the world anything more than Jim Jones or the Branch Davidians. If the Muslim culture would leave us alone I wouldn't care, but it won't: it only survives by looting and plundering other cultures. It is no better than piracy.
Posted by: Darrell   2006-09-15 12:09  

#21  Await the numerous protests and burning of effigies of the Pope!!!!

However still No marches against extremist Islam though????!!!!
Posted by: Gliper Phereck2334   2006-09-15 11:15  

#20  Pope Benedict's itinerary during his scheduled visit to Turkey is here.

It includes a trip to the Hagia Sophia "museum".

Posted by: mrp   2006-09-15 11:05  

#19  This Pope finally did what need's doing. Shine a very bright light on these assholes. Brave, but overdue. I would cancel my trip to Turkistan though, because they'll have every bomber in the ummah gathering there prior to his visit. Will make Leb look like the friendly neighborhood sandpile.
Posted by: SOP35/Rat   2006-09-15 10:52  

#18  Break out the fans. Bring on the disharmony.

Hmmm...Disharmony or Dhimmitude as in the mugger's threat of "money or life".
Posted by: Duh!   2006-09-15 10:00  

#17  wxjames, the pope, and sometimes PM Merkel.
Posted by: twobyfour   2006-09-15 09:58  

#16  am i the only one who thinks these so called badass muslims are the whiningest bitches on earth?
Posted by: sinse   2006-09-15 09:55  

#15  Could the pope be the only German left with balls ?
Posted by: wxjames   2006-09-15 09:48  

#14  Paul Cella

He was quoting — a point he emphasized several times — the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, from a dialogue with an unnamed Persian Muslim. But this selection can hardly have been accidental. Manuel II was the father of Constantine XI, the last Byzantine Emperor, a brave and pious man who died on the wall of the great city when the Turks finally overran it. Manuel also undertook a fateful journey in the early 14th century to the courts of Europe, a journey that amounted chiefly to beggary: he needed aid from the West or his city (for he was an emperor with no empire) would fall. More humiliating than even this — and the tragic enmity between Greek and Roman churches in that age should not be underestimated — was another event, before Manuel’s ascension to the imperial throne: as a subject of the sultan, owing him tribute, Manuel and his army were obliged to join the Turks in the reduction and conquest of the last free Greek city in Anatolia, Philadelphia.

It would be difficult be discover in history two more tragic figures than Manuel and his son, the men who ruled when the dying embers of Rome, once pagan, now Christian, once Italian, now Greek, were finally trod out.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-09-15 09:14  

#13  Â“It is very unfortunate that a religious leader of his stature is issuing statements that can fan religious disharmony,”

Break out the fans. Bring on the disharmony.
Posted by: mcsegeek1   2006-09-15 09:08  

#12  I am struck by the news of Orianna Fallaci's passing, which follows so closely Pope Benedict's Regensburg address.

Fallaci's The Force of Reason (reviewed here and here ) and Benedict's Faith, Reason and the University
Memories and Reflections
take square aim at the relentless attack against Reason in the West.

In August, 2005, Ms. Fallaci (who recently categorized herself as an "atheist Christian"), was invited to a private audience with Pope Benedict in his summer palace at Castel Gandolpho. The details of that meeting, as far as I know, have not been released.

Posted by: mrp   2006-09-15 09:08  

#11  Muslim fury at pope jihad comments

The truth hurts bad. Having no rebuttal, fury is the only known reaction. "Sensitivities", the only justification and implicit monopoly.
Posted by: Duh!   2006-09-15 08:51  

#10  Â“It is very unfortunate that a religious leader of his stature is issuing statements that can fan religious disharmony,”
Meanwhile, back in fatwa-ville, they can issue statements every friday and behead innocent people.

"The concept of jihad is not to spread Islam with sword,”
He's right. Mo started with a peaceful and unifying concept -- he only started using the sword when he met substantial resistance.

The concept of America is not to spread freedom with the sword, but we will if we have to.
Posted by: Darrell   2006-09-15 07:43  

#9  Â“The concept of jihad is not to spread Islam with sword,”

Then why does a sword decorate the flag of Saudi Arabia under the the muslim declaration of faith?
Posted by: john   2006-09-15 06:25  

#8  I was originally horrified when Benedict took over, but I'm liking him more and more.
Posted by: Swamp Blondie   2006-09-15 06:03  

#7  Thus begins the long arduous process of demonizing Islam.

No one's doing anything but pointing out what Islam teaches and what its followers do.
Posted by: Robert Crawford   2006-09-15 05:28  

#6  Â“The concept of jihad is not to spread Islam with sword,”

Of course not if everyone readily accede to their megalomaiacal ideology of, "All the Earth are belong to us!"

And Jesus said the Meek shall inherit the Earth in Sermon on the Mount (not the wicked or the fierce).
Posted by: Duh!   2006-09-15 04:09  

#5  Â“The concept of jihad is not to spread Islam with sword,”

No, the concept of jihad is to stall until the sword get there.
Posted by: gorb   2006-09-15 03:46  

#4  Â“The concept of jihad is not to spread Islam with sword,”

That may be the "concept", but is sure as hell ain't reality - the sword is the only way Jihad goes if people oppose Islam. Ask the Christians and Animists in Africa about butchery at the hands of Islam.

Posted by: Oldspook   2006-09-15 02:58  

#3  Pope does Truman (I just tell them the truth and they think its hell)
Posted by: Captain America   2006-09-15 02:26  

#2  Thus begins the long arduous process of demonizing Islam.

Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Pakistan on Thursday criticised Pope BenedictÂ’s remarks against Islam, and urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer.

Don't worry guys, the Pope is "bringing Islam and Christianity closer". It just happens that those who will be close are the Christians and a few dozen moderate Muslims that are left alive when we're done sorting Islam out.
Posted by: Zenster   2006-09-15 00:29  

#1  fearing a Muslim backlash in the area translates IOW into the existential success of them in blackmailing the nons into silence. Disproportionate consideration and pushing for more.

Benedict's the man and Bush could pay more attention in that direction as well.

What will the nutjob Dalai Lama say now, after that infamous statement proclaiming islam as a RoP?
Posted by: Duh!   2006-09-15 00:24  

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