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Syria-Lebanon-Iran
France authorizes troops to fire at IAF jets over Lebanon
2006-11-23
French soldiers in Lebanon who feel threatened by aggressive Israeli overflights are permitted to shoot at IAF fighter jets, a high-ranking French military officer told The Jerusalem Post Wednesday, several days after meeting with an IDF general in Paris to discuss what he said was a "blatant violation of the cease-fire." Last weekend, Maj.-Gen. Ido Nehushtan, head of the IDF Planning Directorate, traveled to Paris and met with military officials to explain why the IAF flies over Lebanon despite the UN-brokered cease-fire. Nehushtan, new to his post and previously deputy commander of the air force, told his French counterparts that Israel was conducting the flights to collect intelligence on Hizbullah positions in southern Lebanon.

According to the French officer, Nehushtan apologized for an incident on October 31 when an IAF fighter carried out a mock bombing run over a French UNIFIL position in southern Lebanon, almost prompting troops to fire anti-aircraft missiles. "There was a reality on the ground and it was important for us to reaffirm what we had seen and explain clearly what are the orders of the French soldiers to protect themselves," the French officer said.

The French told Nehushtan they would view further aggressive flyovers as a violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1701. "No assurances were made to us that they [the IAF] would stop [the flights]," the French officer said. "The orders that the [French] soldiers have is that their weapons are for self-defense and if a commander will feel threatened, as it was about to happen on the 31st of October, he would have the right to use force."
Posted by:Fred

#17  The French would simply pull out of the Unifil arrange; as would be demanded by French PO!
Posted by: smn   2006-11-23 17:35  

#16  What do the French do in return?

I ask because, armchair general that I am, I don't see what the French can do with conventional weapons to harm the Israelis.


A sizable share of Israel's exports has to get tp Western Mediterranean ie outside the range of the IAF and well in range for the French Navy and Air Force. Of course this would not save the poor guys in Lebanon except as a deterrent.
Posted by: JFM   2006-11-23 16:52  

#15  I don't see anything happening. The French Army are pretty much professionals now.

If for some reason there was an incident, I would expect the retaliation to be local. But I would also guess the IDF might expand their recon flights to include the Rhone Valley.
Posted by: 6   2006-11-23 16:10  

#14  I see a binary option: nothing or nuclear.

It would be an ultimate irony if Europe's strongest proponent of the Eurabia Code were to trigger Israel's Sampson Option with an ill-advised nuclear attack. No one would have to ask the eternal question; "Is Paris burning?". It would be vaporized.

I doubt the French will initiate any attacks as their precious aircraft carrier instantly would become a prime target.
Posted by: Zenster   2006-11-23 13:34  

#13  Re: the speculation about the French long range and having to refuel: there would be a certain irony in them requesting IFR assistance from the US and being rejected. Can you say Libya 1980?
the frogs are only going to croak and grumble, the troops on the ground know they don't wnat to be the one to test the IDF's resolve.
Posted by: USN,Ret   2006-11-23 13:06  

#12  Steve, They will surrender, like they always do. LOL
Posted by: 49 Pan   2006-11-23 11:01  

#11  Dr. White,

The French will not go nuclear on anybody. They still want to live. If a muzzie were in charge, I might be worried.

We'll not see but there'll be a lot of ECM games by both sides before any action like this occurs. If the frogs ever lock onto an Israeli target, I suspect there's going to be HARMs in the strike package from now on to deal with the problem in real time.

I also question your assumption about the Israeli response. If they call Hamas terrorists to tell them they're going to bomb their house, I suspect they'd give the French at least 30 minutes notice, probably via Kofi. Long enough to get the poilus out but not the missiles and radar. France will spew at the UN for failing to protect its peacekeepers and pack up to go home. Spain and Italy will beat them to the docks.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-11-23 10:59  

#10  Scenario:

IAF jets are flying surveillance over Lebanon. One element flies a little too low (thus 'threatening' the French), and French AA units open fire. One Israeli F-15 is downed; the others return to base.

In response, the IAF opens a large can of whupass and over the next 24 hr flattens a number of French UNIFIL sites. Italian and other nationality UNIFIL sites are left untouched. The Israeli PM and FM refuse to apologize and warn the French that any further attacks on Israeli aircraft will be met by a 'disproportionate response.'

Hokay, question:

What do the French do in return?

I ask because, armchair general that I am, I don't see what the French can do with conventional weapons to harm the Israelis. The Chicken of the Sea Charles deGaulle carrier certainly isn't going to sortie for strikes against Haifa. The French might have some long-range strike aircraft but they'd have to refuel somehow, and I don't see the French pulling off a successful long-range strike against an alerted Israel.

They might have cruise missiles on submarines, but so do the Israelis. A tit-for-tat response doesn't help the French at all.

So what do the French do? I see a binary option: nothing or nuclear. That worries me.
Posted by: Steve White   2006-11-23 10:31  

#9  I hope you guys are right. I'm beginning to doubt Israel's resoluteness in these matters. Sharon said he would not tolerate even one rocket attack after pulling out of Gaza. Look where we are today. We've seen hundreds of rocket attacks, and still, we are waiting for the hammer to fall.

I feel like its the mid 1930s. We are approaching a major disaster and nobody wants to take action.
Posted by: Lanny Ddub   2006-11-23 09:46  

#8   They'll only do it once.

Well said, polite, and understated. A point that will be missed entirely by the French. LOL
Posted by: 49 Pan   2006-11-23 09:18  

#7  They'll only do it once.
Posted by: .com   2006-11-23 08:54  

#6  Hizb'allah is building new fortifications right next to the French I would bet,and the French are doing nothing

I wouldn't say that. I'd bet the French are doing whatever they can to help Hizbollah.
Posted by: Rob Crawford   2006-11-23 08:49  

#5  Evidentally, France has grown a pair since recent pummeling delivered against weak, impoverished African neo-colonies (Ivory Coast, for example).

But the Frenchies will soon discover that Israel's military is not some third rate, rag-tag collection of "spray and pray" shooting militiamen.

Alas, this "newfound boldness" from Israel's enemies (I include France among them) stems from the Israeli political leadership's failure to defeat Hezbollah last summer.
Posted by: Lancasters Over Dresden   2006-11-23 04:34  

#4  No small wonder that speculation about Israel's Sampson Option has it including parts of Europe along with all of the major MME (Muslim Middle East) capitals. If France looses even a single round against Israeli aircraft, I hope every last one of their installations, troops and escort ships are blown straight to hell. Vichy is alive and well, and it sorely needs another solid dose of post-war treatment.

The eliteist French polity is an enemy of all free people. Where is Madame Lafarge when we need her?
Posted by: Zenster   2006-11-23 03:55  

#3  RE: *Overflights*

Available *SKY* [maneuvering space] for a IAF fighter jet

As the crow flies it's only 50km from Israel's Northern border to Beirut.

West to East, it's only 25 klicks from the Med to the Golan along the same border.

that's an awfully confined area to remain in while patrolling in an F-16 at 400 to 500 MPH.

Posted by: RD   2006-11-23 02:39  

#2  Hizb'allah is building new fortifications right next to the French I would bet,and the French are doing nothing, this is what they did to UNIFIL last time.

If France should fire on an Israeli aircraft and hit one she must understand that it will have consequences outside of France and Israel. The Germans too must understand that they put their forces at risk if the French fire on a Israeli aircraft. When Resoltion 1701 is enforced by UNIFIL against Hizb'allah the French can worry about Israel, not until then.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom   2006-11-23 01:30  

#1  If the French troops decide to fire on the Israeli jets they probably won't feel threatened any more. They probably won't feel ANYTHING anymore.

The Israeli's wouldn't have to be doing these flyovers if the UNIFIL troops were doing their job of disarming Hezbollah or at least keeping them from rearming.
Posted by: Glenmore   2006-11-23 00:19  

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