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| More on Dragon Skin controversy |
| 2007-05-24 |
Since there was some discussion among Rantburgers that the testing might have been unralistic and/or stacked, I am linking to this post by a very experienced Special Forces officer. Some quotes:"...of eight Pinnacle SOV 3000 Level IV Dragon Skin (DS) vests tested for V0 penetration, four of them failed . . .Of these, significant first shot failures were noted when the DS vests were exposed to diesel fuel, a serious concern since almost all of our vehicles use this fuel . . .between spillage during refueling and the potential for saturation after an IED attack vests can easily be contaminated with fuels. "A first shot complete penetration was also observed after a DS vest was drop tested. [A] 48 pound vest is going to get dropped, dragged, and abused a LOT in a combat zone. "Finally, and most significantly, the vest cannot be exposed to heat. With solar loads regularly generating vehicle interior temperatures well in excess of 150 degrees, the DS vest disks delaminate themselves and fall to the bottom of the vest, effectively reducing the armor protection to nearly nothing. All panels shot after high temperature exposure failed in the first shot. |
| Posted by:Frozen Al |
| #4 thanks OS for adding your direct 1st hand experience. I've heard other good reports on Dragon Skin (second hand). Good Thread. |
| Posted by: RD 2007-05-24 22:10 |
| #3 Funny thing is, I've worn DS in the heat (up over 100 in Alabama), and never felt it drop plates like they claim it did. And the temps there get pretty hot in the trunk too. I was also an Armored Cav trooper, and I don't recall spending my time soaked in diesel, at least not outside the motorpool when I was in maint coveralls. Sweat is a different story (dismounting and springing with a TOW round isn't exactly a walk in the park). If it were that bad, then how'd they get it to pass NIJ testing? Thats what makes me question whether the Army tests were run, especially given the disparaging remarks made about DS before the tests were even run by one of the officers in charge of testing. Not going the conspiracy route, but it does call into question the fundamental objectivity of the officer involved and his possible biases. There should be some sort of impartial lab that tests these kinds of things. Wait, there is one. The NIJ (for police). I wonder why they can't make an ANSI or A/N Milspec standard for these things? As far as practical use- the static defense argument is one I use against the Army's plate- the stuff is heavy and inflexible. And the bottom line still stands: the only good BA is the stuff that gets worn. It isnt going to do you any good if its so stiff and heavy that it gets left in the track. As it stands, none of the std gear is all that great, and now apparently DS doenst do well in some specific mil conditions. I say: tell the Army to license the patents off the DS guys and develop their own version of it for military use. Best of both worlds. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2007-05-24 20:44 |
| #2 So basically, this is good armor IF : 1) you are doing positional defense of say a road block; 2) you are in a temperate climate; or 3) you are a civilian SWAT team member in a temperate climate. Because, almost every military vehicle is diesel and a vest will get splashed with diesel; the ambient air temperature in Iraq in the summer can exceed 135 degrees, not counting solar heat buildup in vehicles; and soldiers will find a way to break things because combat is a bitch and tough on everything. I wouldn't trust that vest in Phoenix or Las Vegas either, OS : lots of police vests get stuck in car trunks until they are needed, and the internal temp in a trunk in either city would exceed the vest's safe margins. So realistically, it is a vest for police/civilians in a temperate climate, assuming it is worn on the person at all times, and not exposed to diesel. |
| Posted by: Shieldwolf 2007-05-24 19:29 |
| #1 That last one I had not heard - thats is a huge issue: you cannot protect the body if the plates have fallen out of their mounting matrix. The whole concept is each platelet overlaps and supports the other. Drop one out and you lose effectiveness. Drop a bunch and you don't have plates anymore. Its the equivalent of removing the plate on which the Army's armor depends. May as well be wearing a potato sack if that's true. Sounds like the DS guys need to use a better adhesive and mounting matrix (fixes hi temperature and drops) and some sealants (fixes diesel), and they'll be fixed up. I expect you'll see this fixed soon. Outside of those conditions (150+ degrees, soaked in diesel and dropped from a 10 foot wall), it did outperform al the other stuff they tested. And it is NIJ Level III certified. Still, outside of those specific extreme military conditions (i.e. for normal police and protective work), I'd choose DS over anything else I've worn for Level III. I never had plates fall loose or any of that crap. And you can move in it. Remember: the best body armor is the stuff that actually gets worn. Make perfect intercptor plate and if it doesn't let you move and weighs a lot, then its going to be left in the track. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2007-05-24 18:49 |