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| Afghanistan | ||
| German gov't turns down US request for more troops to ISAF | ||
| 2008-02-02 | ||
The German government has turned down Friday the request of U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates for North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) members to deploy more troops to Afghanistan.
The German government will not amend the bill passed by the Bundestag (the lower house of parliament) on participation in the NATO operations, government spokesman Ulrich Wilhelm told reporters here. For his part, German Minister of Defense Franz Josef Jung pledged to continue talks under the ISAF mandate but without sending any additional troops to the Central Asian country. Germany has 3,600-strong contingent stationed at the relatively calm northern provinces of Afghanistan.
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| Posted by:Seafarious |
| #16 Besoeker, my experience (post cold-war and reunification) is that beyond the SF and a few other highly trained units, the German Army is made up of politically correct bureacrats for the officers, office clerk careerists for NCOs, and spoiled pussies for the common soldiery. I'd take the French Regulars or the Dutch over the Germans right now - they are better trained, better motivated and better fighters. Let the Dutch off their political leash and they punch WAY above their weight class, much like the Canadians. Its no wonder the Germans are in the quiet north -- they'd get their asses kicked elsewhere if they had to match up to the quality and character of the Canadians and Brits. The Germans can talk smack pretty well. The problem is they do not have anything to back it up anymore. The Wehrmacht is ancient history as is the character of the people that manned it. The modern German is a collectivist mush-headed effite leftist, perfect fodder as compliant socialist slaves in the factories and offices, but useless as soldiers. Outside of the SF and a few other units, I have no respect at all for the German military or its civilian leadership. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-02-02 18:26 |
| #15 Well .... it's not clear that that's their right under the terms of NATO re: defense of a member that has been attacked. But let's say that it is. I think the Germans may put a big whoopass on the Muslim Turks anytime they've had a bellyful Maybe. Or maybe not. Doing so in any military way, beyond some domestic Krystalnacht, will take more than mindset. It requires investment in equipment, appropriate doctrine, serious training and professional troops who don't belong to unions or go home for the weekend. And above all it requires a SWOT assessment. (Strengths, weaknessess, opportunities, threats). Our smug little German visitor yesterday was quick to invoke Darfur and similar places. But what has Germany or the EU actually done about those situations? Pretty much nothing except add to global warming through political hot air. And criticize the US. They can't even gather together sufficient air transport equipment to do the job. That is NOT because the US kept them passive. We've been trying since at least the early 90s to get the NATO countries to meet their treaty obligations regarding troops and equipment readiness. Nowadays, on the rare occasions when I've had some exposure to NATO technology and doctrine meetings, the Germans are conspicuously lacking in contributions compared to the Brits and even the Italians. FWIW, Mr. Lotp is German on one side of his family, his mother's parents were emigres and she spoke German for years before learning English, his sister married a German national and our nieces have spent considerable time with relatives there. My opinion is not formed lightly. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-02-02 14:03 |
| #14 I think the Germans are being spanked too hard here. Remember they act as they do because we pacified them and the Japanese. They are both fierce and tend naturally toward attacking their neighbors. Our troops have been there to keep a lid on their political situation in addition to other tasks. We've brainwashed them for 50 years to be passive. That's the current mindset. It could change rapidly. You saw a little heat build quickly in Japan over the Nkor stupidity. I think the Germans may put a big whoopass on the Muslim Turks anytime they've had a bellyful, unlike the Dutch, who will sit on their asses and get smacked down by the invading ingrates. Don't be surprised to open a paper one morning and see massive fires and other assorted damage throughout Deutchland and a horde of deceased Muslims. It only takes a small spark to light the forest fire. As for their troops, they didn't want to participate at all. The current mood of the bulk of the people. They were cajoled into helping against their real desires. They agreed on a token force in a "calm" area. Who knows if it will be calm next month ? Anyway, the troop committment needs approval by their legislature and they are in no mood to do it. That's their right. |
| Posted by: Woozle Elmeter 2907 2008-02-02 13:40 |
| #13 Yep, for couple generations the Germans were happy to fight to the last American to hold the Fulda Gap. Not that non-militaristic Germans is really that bad. And by the way, those were the Prussians and Saxons, whom the Soviets sat on for nearly 50 years, who did most of the warlike cultural displays [invasion, annexation, etc]. The Rhineland states which were 'incorporated' into Greater |
| Posted by: Procopius2k 2008-02-02 13:36 |
| #12 "Too few kids." Chang, you've nailed it. And for the same reason, I am cautiously optimistic about avoiding major war with Russia and China (not that China has too few kids, but that they have too few kids per family.) Of all the developed and near-developed world only the US and India have enough youth to manage a real war with the baby factories of the world, and then only because of overwhelming technical superiority. |
| Posted by: Glenmore 2008-02-02 11:15 |
| #11 The EU and Germany are embracing islam, why would they do their NATO duties and fight against the radical version? Europe is going to be buried under islamic immigration and an islamic home grown population before all to long. All one need do is look at the math, those that can are voting with their feet even in the UK. |
| Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom 2008-02-02 10:29 |
| #10 At a minimum Russian methods provide an interesting contrast and an alternative vision for the mussies to focus on. It's all up hill from there. The Euros, their politicians, not their actual troops in the field, by contrast, merely tar us with cowardice. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2008-02-02 09:16 |
| #9 Too few kids. :< Ones there are too precious to risk. Germany and Europe have taken a self-imposed population beat-down that rivals the lost generations of the trenches. |
| Posted by: Chang Smith8113 2008-02-02 08:52 |
| #8 Well, assistance they will need. Oh - you mean we get Russia's assistance? Could work, if we're cautious. Better than what we're seeing right now from western Europe. Yesterday 'GerMan;-)' wrote: what's up with a moral compass pointing towards Dafur, Sudan, Zimbabwe, you name it, instead? And the obvious answer is that the Germans and Europeans in general are doing exactly nothing useful in those situations either. All flatulance, no meat. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-02-02 08:41 |
| #7 I like the idea of playing the Serbian card. We should throw the Euros over for Russian assistance in quelling the muzzie problem. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2008-02-02 08:36 |
| #6 Germany produced some of the most destructive and dangerous of the 1960s radical leftists, among them Joschka Fisher, who was taped as he badly beat a policeman in 1973 and who AS FOREIGN MINISTER gave a character witness for a fellow radical accused of murdering police. And yes, Fischer was foreign minister as we went into Iraq. These are the people who were in power until Merkel was elected, who still wield a good deal of power in their parliamentary form of government and who have dominated the press and schools in Germany for decades. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-02-02 08:01 |
| #5 My advice is to write them off. TW is got her claws in 'em and it's unlikely all the Landser in the Bundeswehr can undo that. Still, in times past TW has show mercy, perhaps they'll live. |
| Posted by: Chang Smith8113 2008-02-02 07:51 |
| #4 One must understand the physche of the German. The Germans are a very proud, warrior race. I assure you, they would be delighted to exhibit the effeciency and prowess of the Bundeswehr, and launch into rousing choruses of the Horst-Wessel-Lied. Failed military campaigns beyond their borders in the last century, decades of foreign troop occupation by the victors, and a tightly controlled heavily taxed, socialist economy have left little appetite for external military missions. These factors are all tightly bound together by a growing Anti-Americanism cultivated by the left, German academia, and media. They envy and at the same time blame America and our president for their current high taxes and socialist plight. In my opinion, many of them wallow in losers pity, warriors who know they can never again, at least in their lifetimes, be victorious against old enemies. Therefore, they regail at the challenges and divisions which beset those former enemies. My advice, continue to keep an eye on the German. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2008-02-02 02:57 |
| #3 hmmm. maybe forget the bases in Germany. Lets pull all our troops out of the ex-Yugoslavia and turn all our bases over to the Serbs..... Germany encouraged the breakup for slovinia resaons so I am sure they will be happy to police that backwater. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-02-02 00:58 |
| #2 After all, it's not immoral to sit idly in comfort while the innocent are murdered in front of one, whereas actually acting to prevent murder would contravene the lessons the Germans learnt from their Nazi past. Herr GerMan who posted yesterday is typical of his countrymen. On the other hand, I'm sure he's a perfectly delightful dinner guest and hiking companion. After all, my mother's childhood friends from 1930s Hildesheim have been writing her the most charming letters since her family's story was been published as a high school textbook in Berne a few months ago. Why, the volume is going into a second printing, I've heard! |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-02-02 00:54 |
| #1 time to pull a whole bunch more troops out of Deutchland. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-02-02 00:23 |