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| Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia |
| Russian troops invade Georgia and take the city of Gori |
| 2008-08-11 |
| Posted by:tipper |
| #59 http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/11/voluntary-amputation/#more-126 link to full belmont article |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 22:50 |
| #58 Haliburton, prolly funny on many levels to them -Russian going east and stretched Americans having to play cop again. Actually, W needs to tell the Ruskies they need to fall back to Russia proper - and take any disenfranchised Russian citizens back to the Motherland w/them...then let Intl' peacekeepers in w/in a week. If not, then stealths need to roll under cover of darkness and make ruskie tank assets disappear. We also need to donate about a thousand javelins to the Georgians - see how the ivans like that thing. Thank them for the kornets they were given the ba'athists in '03. |
| Posted by: Hupusong Hatfield aka Broadhead6 2008-08-11 22:37 |
| #57 Blonide, an airlift of hukmanitarian aid is in order, because the Russians swear they ahve not decalred war on Georgia, therefor the airspace aobve Tblisi is NOT under embargo. Same goes for forcing the Naval blockade by escorting a freighter full of wheat into a Goergian port. The russians cannot, under international law, block such things, without a declaration of war. Puttin ghtose actions in place forces the gangsters in Moscow to deal wiht the reality of shooting at US forces, or else coming clean and declaring an unprovoked war against a soveriegn nation (and payign the price either way). Whats "The Tsar" think of the thuggery on display by Russian military in thier decimation and indiscriminate targeting of civilians in bombing and artillery fire? My russian ex-pat friends are aghast that Putin would order the invasion to go this far, and allow the military to do things that may be classified as "war crimes". I agree - Russia has become a thug nation, run by gangsters. Note they are already trheateneing Poland, Latvia, Ukraine, etc with "you will pay for your criticism" type talk . If Russia wants to let its ultranationailist run away with the nation, they are setting themselves ona course for a war with the US and the west, as surely as the ultranationalist Germans caused Nazi Germany to ignite WW2. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 22:30 |
| #56 HHAB - I suspect W did just that in his statement this pm. As for Chinese humor, I wonder whether it's more aimed at Russia than us - they must keep staring at Siberia and wondering . . . |
| Posted by: Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division 2008-08-11 22:30 |
| #55 We either stand on principle and acknowledge that the Georgians are our allies or we do not. I thought they were. If they are then W should tell Putin that the Russians need to cease all combat ops and fall back to Ossetia w/in 24 hrs in order to let us bring in human-aid. If after 24 hrs the Ruskies have not, then methinx it would be time to send some stealths over and handle some business on their front line track assets and troops. Either way, China is laughing. |
| Posted by: Hupusong Hatfield aka Broadhead6 2008-08-11 22:25 |
| #54 Ooooh, hopeful and useful information, instead of doom and disaster! Thank you, Halliburton, et al. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 22:11 |
| #53 Finally found an interesting post over at The Belmont Club on possible upcoming Georgian action, particularly in light of Pres. Saak's address tonight - apparently the Georgian's do have a defense in depth plan, and seem to be moving to it - 1st a stand in natural defenses before Tblisi, and a further retreat behind another mtn. range toward the Turk/Armenian borders. In keeping with this is no note of any surrenders of Georgian forces - plenty of reporting on panic and retreat, but if the Russian's had an encirclement or mass capture, we'd certainly her about it. Also interesting that our airlift of return troops seems complete, and I wonder what else was aboard the transports (AA assets, UAVs, TOWs, let's hope all of the above) All very fascinating, and most importantly, possible, with both Turkey and Armenia having national interests in line with Georgia. If Russia really screws up, they could end up leading Turkey, Armenia and the Uzbeks to resolve their differences. Quite a lot of wishful thinking there, and seemingly impossible coordination, a common threat may work wonders. Finally, still no public note of asymmetric warfare, which I have to believe Georgia is holding in reserve. I think the Russians are nearing their stop line, or they wouldn't have let our airlift in, and they'd be moving airborne troops to encircling positions. |
| Posted by: Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division 2008-08-11 22:00 |
| #52 But we want to take sides, Swamp Blondie. The Russians are trying to destabilize their little part of the world. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 21:41 |
| #51 Hate to say it, but the ones calling for anything more than pretty much what we are doing now are acting like they've played Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon one too many times. Are the Russians overreacting? Oh, hell yeah. But what else can we realistically do without pouring gas on the fire? (Think I'm kidding? Just had a "debate" with the Tsar regarding the Georgian troops going home from Iraq. He said that IHHO that we had better not give them a ride to Tbilisi on an American-flagged plane.....or else that would be seen as taking sides.) |
| Posted by: Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields 2008-08-11 21:21 |
| #50 To be honest I'm not sure why that tunnel wasn't taken out by Georgia as the first step in securing their borders (or while being transited by Russian tank columns). That tunnel must be really important for commerce or something. |
| Posted by: rjschwarz 2008-08-11 20:15 |
| #49 IF I didn't miss something, the latest statement from President Bush was just more of the same, alot of words. I am from Texas, voted twice for GW for Governor and twice for president, but I am disappointed at our response to this crisis. I realize it is a complicated situation, I just have a hard time believing there wasn't some response between words and all out war with Russia. |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 19:56 |
| #48 Sure would be a pity if the tunnel linking Russia to South Ossetia was destroyed... |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 19:39 |
| #47 More Russian barbarity: When Russian airplanes dropped bombs on Gori, Georgia, Monday morning, 26-year-old Nikri (who was afraid to give his last name) rushed home to check on his family. The carnage that awaited him was almost too much to bear. A woman's severed hand lay by the entrance to his shattered apartment building. Upstairs, he found his wounded wife and one of his daughters alive. But his 2-year-old daughter was dead, the victim of a piece of shrapnel that hit the wall above her bed. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 19:27 |
| #46 Bush's reply http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92GC5G80&show_article=1 |
| Posted by: linker 2008-08-11 19:22 |
| #45 And I especially love the milquetoast reply Bush gave (backed by Condi and State) in his speech this afternoon. It reeked of Carter and Chamberlain, not Truman and Churchill. I guess allthe arguing is for naught - Bush has looked into Putins soul and decided to let him have Georgia. Royally screwing an ally in the GWOT, and allowing for the destabilization of nearly every former Soviet vassal state by threat and intimidation from Russian Way to go Dubya. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 19:07 |
| #44 Well I for one am happy we have one of the foremost experts on the Russians in charge of our state department so that we aren't caught flatfooted. /snark |
| Posted by: rjschwarz 2008-08-11 18:07 |
| #43 Rantburg is infested with liberals. Go Vlad! |
| Posted by: Beldar Elmoger1345 2008-08-11 17:13 |
| #42 Alex: You have forgot about Kosovo? Who have bobed Belgrad? Children and women? The Serbs massacred 200,000 Bosnian civilians. We had every reason they were going to do the same in Kosovo. We bombed strategic installations in Belgrade. If we had wanted to kill large numbers of people, we could have done what we did over Tokyo - kill 100,000 people in a single bombing raid. Alex: What have American people have done in Irak? They killed thousands of people. Peace people. We removed a dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of his own people by gassing and bombing them, in addition to invading two countries to steal their oil. Alex: And now the georcian has killed 12 russian people (peacemakers)what should we do? The Russians in South Ossetia aren't peacekeepers - they're occupation troops on the way to Russia's annexation of the territory. To my knowledge, peacekeepers don't annex territory. Alex: Rusiia dont want war. We need 20 years of peace to became strong and economically independent. I'm getting the impression that being strong means resuming the expansion of Russian empire that began centuries ago, and was uninterrupted neither by revolution in 1917 nor counter-revolution in 1989. It figures. As Richard Pipes pointed out, the problem with Russia wasn't ever that it was Communist - it was because it was Russian. Today's Russians are the equivalent of the Germans in the inter-war period - they feel aggrieved and will expand until they meet serious resistance. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 16:00 |
| #41 THE FOREIGN POLICY CONCEPT OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION Approved by Dmitry A. Medvedev, President of the Russian Federation, on 12 July 2008 click here |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 15:56 |
| #40 Several geopolitical consequences of Russian hamfistedness/overreach in Georgia: 1. NATO will be revitalized as it dawns on Western Europe that the Russian bear is no longer hibernating. 2. Iran's hand as a regional power is strengthened - a Russia-Iran axis has been forming on the basis on military hardware purchases and petro-supply. Iran is one of Russia's diplomatic levers against further NATO advancement into the "old Soviet sphere". 3. This will place a floor under crude prices (see BTC pipeline), providing sustenance for leaderships in Iran and Venezuela which continue to face economic problems and rising dissent. |
| Posted by: Grumenk Philalzabod0723 2008-08-11 15:50 |
| #39 putin and logic ... hmmmmm do they go together ; ) |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 15:32 |
| #38 Hungary, 1956. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 15:32 |
| #37 Consider Putin's passport logic: Chinese diaspora One starts with the fact that there are only around 40 million Russians scattered across the vast expanse of the Far East and Siberia, with only 7 million in the Far East itself. Yet now, for example, Russia’s main Pacific port and naval base of Vladivostok, once closed to foreigners, is bristling with Chinese markets, restaurants and trade houses.[2] The expanding Chinese presence in the area has led to yellow peril-style fears of Chinese irredentism.[3] Russian newspapers publish fantastic estimates of between two and five million Chinese migrants in the Russian Far East, and predict that half of the population of Russia would be Chinese by 2050.[4][5] Russians perceive hostile intent in the Chinese practice of using different names for local cities, such as Hǎishēnwǎi for Vladivostok, and a widespread folk belief states that the Chinese migrants remember the exact locations of their ancestors' ginseng patches, and seek to reclaim them.[6] The xenophobia against Chinese and exaggerated concerns over the Chinese influx are described as being less prevalent in the Russian Far East, where most of the Chinese shuttle trade is actually occurring, than in European Russia.[7] The southern part of the Russian Far East, south of the Stanovoy Mountains, was ceded by China to Russia in the 19th century in the Treaty of Aigun and Treaty of Peking. Chinese historians present the treaties as being Unequal Treaties imposed on China by Russia by force, a presentation that also figures strongly in Chinese schools. [8][9] So by Putin's logic - China would have a right to invade and capture Siberia. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 15:29 |
| #36 from fox news Meanwhile, the State Department says it has evacuated more than 170 U.S. citizens from Georgia as the conflict over separatist areas there intensifies between Georgia and Russia. A spokesman said Monday that two convoys carrying about 170 private U.S. citizens along with an undetermined number of family members of American diplomats based in Georgia have left Tbilisi on their way by road to neighboring Armenia. The spokesman says more convoys are being prepared in case other Americans choose to leave Georgia. |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 15:18 |
| #35 This SHOULD be an eye-opening wake-up call for Europe, from Estonia to Albania, from Poland to the Pyrennes. The only way to keep from falling victim to Russia's greed for power and territory is to have a military strong enough to stop them, and to hurt them so much they won't be able to fight any more. The biggest problem with invading Russia is the terribly long, terribly vulnerable logistics lines that would exist. Turning their cities and towns into rubble piles, destroying their infrastructure, and pounding their military to pieces doesn't take anywhere near that long a supply line. The key, however, is being able to stop their military. If Europe doesn't IMMEDIATELY begin rebuilding their armed forces to at LEAST "Cold-War" levels, and icreasing them, they're doomed to the same fate as Geoargia. |
| Posted by: Old Patriot 2008-08-11 15:10 |
| #34 "You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia,' but only slightly less well known is this: 'Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.'" |
| Posted by: Anon4021 2008-08-11 14:55 |
| #33 Actually - I will laugh on the day China takes Siberia from Russia.... |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 14:49 |
| #32 OS, get your point on the "Nashi" parallels. Yes, we need to make it clear to Putin that he must get out and get out now or else suffer a very long and draining revolution (as only one of the consequences). Russia's recent track record, particularly with Iran, demonstrates that they are an enemy of the US/the west. I hereby toss my previous posts of "what can we do" and acknowledge that there is much we can do and should do immediately. I'd like to believe that all of Europe would back us on this since it is in their direct interest to see Russia play by "normal" rules. |
| Posted by: remoteman 2008-08-11 14:49 |
| #31 They are here at the behest of Putin's They are well indoctrinated ultra-nationalists, who have had the "Russian Empire" nationalist propaganda poured into them and have apparently never opened their eyes once to where they were being led. I hope you Nashi members enjoy dying to IEDs and EFP in the gurilla war you will be enmeshed in. Youreally ought to read up on your parents experience in Afghanistan. And consider how easy it is for us to stir up a "mini Afghanistan" in nearly every one of your border provinces, and how vulnerable your pipeliens are in the interior of the country. Think of the body bags coming back for years, your firends dead or missing limbs. All for the glory of conquest by Tsar Putin. Are you ready for that? |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 14:41 |
| #30 I think it may be university students. Do they have summer break there? |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 14:35 |
| #29 At what point does the repition of these memes over different names constitute flooding? Gotta wonder why Russia is sending so many of its disinformation operatives here. Or are the supposedly educated people of Russia this screwed up? |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 14:35 |
| #28 Let me fix this for you... See where you are? |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 14:34 |
| #27 ukraine isnt nearly as important a market, and it had its own complex issues on pricing and payment. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 14:33 |
| #26 weak alex weak! |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 14:33 |
| #25 this isnt kosovo, where there was an ethnic cleansing and we spent weeks trying to negotiate with the Serbs, who rejected neutral peacekeepers. In SOuth ossetia, its Russia that rejected neutral peacekeepers. We also never sent our troops into belgrade, yet Russia has sent troops into Senaki and Gori. And its not Iraq, a country run by one of the most brutal dictators on earth. Its a democracy being overthrown, apparetnly in part BECAUSE its a democracy. Is there any website on earth where these memes arent being flooded? At what point does the repition of these memes over different names constitute flooding? |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 14:32 |
| #24 What have American people have done in Irak? They killed thousands of people. And saved tens of thousands more. Oh, and removed a dictator. And helped the Iraqis stand up and defend themselves. Funny, innit, how eager the Russians are to justify the invasion of Georgia on the basis of South Ossetia, when the latest moves make it clear they're really out for the whole thing. |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 14:30 |
| #23 You have forgot about Kosovo? Who have bobed Belgrad? Children and women? What have American people have done in Irak? They killed thousands of people. Peace people. And now the georcian has killed 12 russian people (peacemakers)what should we do? Rusiia dont want war. We need 20 years of peace to became strong and economically independent. |
| Posted by: Alex from Russia 2008-08-11 14:26 |
| #22 http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/08/021219.php interesting map from stratfor of battle space, and interesting commentary on what's happening |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 14:20 |
| #21 But SG - haven't the Russians already shut off "Nat Gas to europe"? Or does Ukraine not count as part of Europe? |
| Posted by: Whomong Trotsky9555 2008-08-11 14:18 |
| #20 remoteman You think Russia can afford to shut off Nat Gas to europe? Not only would they lose the money, theyd also lose their rep as a supplier. Im not sure thats a credible threat. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 14:15 |
| #19 There are always options other than shooting wars. The next time moscow bitches about the way the Israelis respond to attacks on their sovereign territory by palis /hezbos etc, they should tell russia (and btw the US state dept) ... "screw you!" |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 14:10 |
| #18 The DOD and Pentagon have very smart people who get paid alot of money to come up with creative ways to deal with these type of situations. Georgia put its ass on the line, and supplied troops for Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq; troops that actually seem to do things. They deserve better from everybody than this. |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 14:05 |
| #17 Superstitious...not a strawman, just responding to the begging cries that we do something right now!!! All I'm saying is that there is not a lot that we can do RIGHT NOW. Sure, we can ship arms to the Georgians. We can supply them with Sat info on Russian troop movements. We can help them bleed the Russians as much as possible...but in the meantime the Russians are going to devastate Georgia. You live in a dreamworld if you think we can isolate Russia diplomatically. Of course our relations with them should go quite cold, but don't forget that without Russia, Europe will literally go quite cold this winter. Our options are limited and the Russians know it. |
| Posted by: remoteman 2008-08-11 14:04 |
| #16 They would probably arm the Iranians with SSNs as retaliation. |
| Posted by: john frum 2008-08-11 14:00 |
| #15 Mebbe Turkey would let us slip the Georgians some surplus diesel-electric subs. Sure would be a surprise for the Black Sea Fleet. |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 13:55 |
| #14 remote = why the constant strawman being repeated ad nauseum, that its either a shooting war or do nothing? We can attempt to isolate them diplomatically and economically, take Ukraine into NATO, supply weapons to the Georgians, etc, etc as for letting them dominate Europe, we struggled for 40 years to stop that from happening, and wed damned well better stop that from happening now. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 13:51 |
| #13 What, exactly, should the US do to respond to this Russian agression? Do we want to get into an open shooting conflict with the Russians? Is that going to help things? I sure don't see how. Georgia seems to have overplayed their hand, poking a stick at the bear. The bear doesn't like that...at all. I feel for them, but again, what to do. Russia is going to act as they always have. The oil pipeline issue is critical here for them to retain power over the "Stans" and Belarus as well as to keep heavy influence over Europe. They regard this as "their" territory. They won't let anyone else, especially the US, into that realm without a fight. |
| Posted by: remoteman 2008-08-11 13:48 |
| #12 #9 - no one says the MILITARY shouldnt run on oil. In fact the military uses a small percentage of US oil consumptiopn, and alt fuels would release oil for mil consumption. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 13:47 |
| #11 I dont understand #6 though. It implies theres some distinction between the response of western eur and the US, and I dont see that. Unless you mean you would have expected WE to react MORE strongly than the US, since theyre closer. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 13:45 |
| #10 In response to comment #8, if your remarks were directed at me, I have been more than critical of the US in comments on this subject over the past few days. Feel free to check back on other related posts and see for yourself. See also comment #4 today. |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 13:42 |
| #9 Georgia has a major oil pipeline that Russia wants. Russia knows that oil is power. They can control the flow, they can control the prices. By the way junior senator from Chicago, Obama, any war machine powered by fossil fuels will kick the as of any 25 mpg battery operated piece of plastic. But this will fit right in with Obama's desire to see higher oil prices in America. The global super power then shifts, to the New Soviet Empire. |
| Posted by: Neville Shaviling6626 2008-08-11 13:40 |
| #8 in what has the US shown more resolve than western europe? - i mean now, not the NATO application of several months ago. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 13:39 |
| #7 Wonder why we didn't drop some of the 82nd Airborne into Georgia or put some US troops on those planes flying the Georgians back to Georgia. At least a squadron of F-22s and A-10s to clear the skies and neutralize the tanks. |
| Posted by: RWV 2008-08-11 13:37 |
| #6 I am stunned by the lack of resolve of western europe. It appears that Russia and Iran are now calling the shots. And the world talks and threatens to stop the import of checkers and toilet paper. |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 13:36 |
| #5 Ruskies asking to talk to NATO What reason do they give for that? |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 13:35 |
| #4 News agencies reporting russians closing on georgian capitol; georgian forces in retreat and disarray. Ruskies asking to talk to NATO. Wonder if terms of surrender will include installation of puppet govt loyal to Moscow? If this plays out the way it seems to be going, it woiuld seem to be disastrous for US influence in the region. It has been seen that russia will meet all local challenges with crushing, brutal force and the west will unleash a barrage of useless words. |
| Posted by: Legolas 2008-08-11 13:33 |
| #3 Key goegraphic poin in Georgia. Time to take the fight to Russia. Arm the Chechens, and any other seperatists. Start bleeding Russia to death. And get the Ukraine in NATO NOW - same with Byelorus if they ask. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 13:20 |
| #2 Russia is an expansionist power and always has been. Think of them as you might think of the Roman empire. Their history has always been one of defeating their neighbors and expanding the empire. It is what defines Russia as Russia. To believe otherwise is to be a complete and utter fool. Electing Putin back years ago was a major step backward for the Russian people. Russia is going to find itself increasingly isolated again. |
| Posted by: crosspatch 2008-08-11 13:19 |
| #1 this is outrageous, and gives the lie to the claim this was about Ossetia. It looks like its too late for Georgia, which will soon have a govt installed by Moscow (well depending on how many troops the russians will leave to keep that puppet govt in power) Time for ukraine to enter NATO. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 13:13 |